How American and Chinese values shaped the coronavirus response | Huang Hung

Transcriber: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Camille Martínez

譯者: Pui-Ching Siu 審譯者: Carol Wang

Helen Walters: Huang, it's so good to see you.

海倫·沃爾特斯： 晃，看見你真好。

謝謝你參加我們的節目。 2020 年你過得怎麼樣呢？

Thank you for joining us. How's your 2020 been?

Huang Hung: My 2020 started totally normal.

洪晃：我的 2020 年 剛開始時還算正常。

In January, I went to Paris,

1 月份我去了一趟巴黎，

did my interview for the fashion week there,

在那裡接受了巴黎時裝周的採訪，

came back to Beijing on January 22nd,

然後在 1 月 22 號回到北京，

and finding things a little bit tense

發現事態有點緊張，

because there were a lot of rumors.

那是因為出現了非常多的謠言。

Having lived through SARS,

因為經歷過 SARS 疫情，

I wasn't that concerned.

我並沒有感到特別的擔心。

And on the 23rd, I had a friend of mine from New York come to my house

在 23 號，我有一個朋友 從紐約來到我的家，

who had a flu,

雖然他得了流感，

and we had dinner together,

但是我們一起吃了晚飯；

and another friend who came,

之後又來了另一個朋友，

who left the next day for Australia for vacation on an airplane.

第二天便搭乘飛機去澳洲度假了。

So we were not taking this terribly seriously

總之，我們不怎麼認真對待此事，

until there was a lockdown.

直到進入了封鎖狀態。

HW: And we've seen that echo around the world.

海倫：我們看到了世界各地的迴響。

I think still some people find it hard to understand the magnitude

我認為有些人依然很難理解

of some of the measures that China took.

中國採取部分措施的強度。

I mean -- what else are we missing about China's response in all of this?

意思是——關於中國的響應措施， 我們錯過了什麼呢？

HH: You know, historically,

洪晃：你知道，從歷史的角度上，

we're just two very different countries

就文化和歷史而言，

我們是兩個截然不同的國家。

in terms of culture and history.

I mean, these are two completely different human experiences for its people.

我的意思是，雙方人們 分別有著截然不同的經驗。

So, for China,

所以，對於中國而言，

when the lockdown happens,

當進入了封鎖狀態的時候，

people are OK.

人們覺得還可以。

People are OK with it,

他們覺得沒問題，

because they think that's what a good parent should do.

因為他們認為這是 作為好的父母應該做的。

You know, if a kid gets sick,

就像當一個小孩生病的時候，

you put him in the other room,

你把他放在另一個房間，

and you lock him up and make sure that the other kids don't get sick.

然後把他鎖起來， 為了確保其他小孩不會被傳染。

And they expect that out of the government.

這就是人們期望政府所做的。

But when it is outside of China, from America, it becomes a huge issue

但在中國之外，在美國看來，

這變成了一個採取 正確政治措施的重大問題，

of the right political thing to do

and whether it's infringing on personal freedom.

和是否侵犯了個人自由。

So the issues that you have to deal with in a democratic society

在民主社會所需要處理的問題

are issues that one does not have to deal with in China.

在中國是不成問題的。

I have to say that there's a word in Chinese

我必須說的是，

在中文裡有一個字 是其他語言裡沒有的，

that doesn't exist in any other language,

and the word is called "guāi."

那個字就是「乖」。

It is what you call a kid

這個字是用來形容

who listens to his or her parents.

聽父母話的小孩。

So I think, as a people, we are very "guāi."

所以，作為人民，我們非常「乖」。

We have this sort of authoritarian figure

中國人十分敬仰這種權威形象,

that Chinese always look up to,

and they do expect the government to actually take the actions,

他們期望政府會真正行動，

and they will deal with it.

並且處理問題。

However much suffering there is,

無論受到多少的折磨，

they feel that, OK, if big brother says that this has to be done,

他們覺得，如果老大哥說 必須要這樣做的話，

then it must be done.

那就這麼辦吧。

And that really defines China as a separate mentality,

從這件事可見，中國有著自己的思維。

Chinese has a separate mentality,

跟歐洲和美國的人民比較，

as, say, people in Europe and America.

中國人民有著完全不同的心態。

HW: That sense of collective responsibility

海倫：在美國的文化裡，

sometimes feels a little absent from this culture.

我們有時候缺少了這種集體責任感。

At the same time, there are, I think, valid concerns

同時，還有一些合理擔憂，

around surveillance and data privacy, things like that.

類似關於監視和數據保密的問題。

What is the balance here,

應該怎麼達到平衡，

and what is the right trade-off between surveillance and freedom?

還有怎麼在監管和自由中達成妥協呢？

HH: I think in the internet age,

洪晃：我認為在這個互聯網時代，

it is somewhere between China and the US.

平衡介於中國與美國之間。

I think when you take individual freedom

我認為，當你使用個人自由

versus collective safety,

與集體安全對抗時，

there has to be a balance somewhere there.

必有介於兩者間的平衡。

With surveillance, the head of Baidu, Robin Li, once said

對於監管，百度公司董事長 李彥宏曾經說過，

the Chinese people are quite willing to give up certain individual rights

中國人民相當願意犧牲某些個人權利

in exchange for convenience.

來換取便利。

Actually, he was completely criticized on Chinese social media,

實際上，他在中國社交網絡被批評了，

but I think he is right.

但是我認為他是正確的。

Chinese people are willing to give up certain rights.

中國人民願意放棄某些個人權利，

For example, we have ...

比如說，我們有...

Chinese mostly are very proud of the payment system we have,

絕大部分中國人對於 我們的支付系統感到非常自豪，

which is you can go anywhere just with your iPhone

也就是，你可以帶著 你的蘋果手機到任何地方

and pay for everything,

為任何東西付款，

and all they do is face-scan.

並且只需要進行臉部掃描，

I think that probably freaks Americans out.

我覺得那大概嚇壞美國人了。

You know, China right now, we're still under semi-lockdown,

現在中國依然處於半封鎖狀態。

so if you go anywhere, there's an app where you scan

任何你去的地方

會有一個供你掃描 和輸入手機號碼的應用程式，

and you input your mobile phone number,

and the app will tell the guard at the entrance of the mall, for example,

接著，那個應用程式 會告知在商場門前的警衛，

where you have been for the past 14 days.

你過去 14 天到過哪裡。

Now, when I told that to an American,

當我把這件事告訴一個美國人時，

she was horrified,

她嚇壞了，

and she thought it was such an invasion of privacy.

她認為這大大地侵犯了個人隱私。

On the other hand,

另一方面，

as someone who is Chinese

身為過去 20 年定居中國的中國人，

and has lived in China for the past 20 years,

although I understand that American mentality,

即使我明白美國人的思維，

I still find I'm Chinese enough to think, "I don't mind this,

身為中國人，我依然認為，

「我不介意，而且這樣 進入商場還更安全，

and I am better, I feel safer entering the mall

because everybody has been scanned,"

因為大家都被掃描過。」

whereas, I think individual freedom as an abstract concept

然而，個人自由作為抽象概念，

在這樣的疫情當中，

in a pandemic like this

is actually really meaningless.

其實是完全沒有意義的。

So I think the West really needs to move a step towards the East

所以我認為西方需要靠向東方一步，

and to think about the collective as a whole

考慮到整個集體，

rather than only think about oneself as an individual.

而不是只考慮到個人。

HW: The rise of antagonistic rhetoric between the US and China

海倫：美國和中國之間敵對言論的上升

is obviously troubling,

顯然令人十分憂慮，

and the thing is, the countries are interlinked

問題是，這兩個國家之間是互相關聯的，

whether people understand global supply chains or not.

無論人民是否理解全球供應鏈。

Where do you think we head next?

你認為我們下一步該怎麼辦呢？

HH: You know, this is the most horrifying thing that came out of this,

洪晃：是這場疫情當中，

發生的最可怕的事情，

the kind of nationalistic sentiments on both sides in this pandemic.

就是雙方的民族主義情緒。

Because I'm an optimist,

因為我是一個樂觀主義者，

I think what will come out of this

我認為最終

is that both sides will realize that this is a fight

雙方會意識到，

這場抗爭需要全人類共同努力，

that the entire human race has to do together and not apart.

而不是各自解決。

Despite the rhetoric,

先不論那些政治言論，

the global economy has grown to such an integration

全球經濟已經發展為一體化，

that decoupling will be extremely costly and painful

脫鉤對美國和中國來說

都是極其昂貴和痛苦的。

for both the United States and China.

HW: It's also been interesting to me

海倫：我覺得中國收到的言語批評

to see the criticism that China has received quite vocally.

是挺有意思的。

For instance, they've been criticized for downplaying the death toll,

比如說，他們被批評 可能修改死亡人數，

arguably,

also for trying to demonize Dr. Li,

並且試圖抹黑第一位對於冠狀病毒 發出警告的武漢醫生，李醫生。

the Wuhan doctor who first raised the alarm about the coronavirus.

I just saw a report in "The New York Times"

我剛在《紐約時報》看到一則報道，

that Weibo users have been posting repeatedly on the last post of Dr. Li

微博用戶正在不斷轉發 李醫生發的最後一條微博，

and using this as kind of a living memorial to him,

以此作為對他的悼念，

chatting to him.

並與他交談。

There's something like 870,000 comments and growing

在那條微博下，

有大約 870000 條留言， 而且正在不斷增加。

on that last post.

Do you see a change in the media?

你有看見媒體的變化嗎？

Do you see a change in the approach to Chinese leadership

你是否看到中國領導者採取不同措施

that actually could lead to China swinging perhaps more to the center,

讓中國更接近中央呢？

just as perhaps America needs to swing more towards a Chinese model?

就像是，也許美國需要 向中國的模式靠攏呢？

HH: Unfortunately, not really,

洪晃：不幸的是，並沒有。

because I think there is a way

原因是，極權政府與他的人民

between authoritarian governments and its people to communicate.

有一種特定的溝通方式。

The night that Dr. Li died,

李醫生去世的當晚，

when it was announced that he died,

當宣佈他的死亡的時候，

the Chinese social media just blew up.

中國社交媒體炸開來了。

Even though he was unjustly treated as a whistleblower,

即使他被當成了吹哨者 並受到不公正的對待，

he still went to work in the hospital

他依然堅守醫院的崗位，

and tried to save lives as a doctor,

極力挽救生命，

and then he died

接著因為感染了冠狀病毒而去世了。

because he contracted the disease.

So there was anger, frustration,

所以一切憤怒與沮喪

and all of that came out

由此而產生，

in kind of commemorating a figure

就是為了紀念一位 他們認為被政府錯待了的人物。

that they feel that the government had wronged.

The verdict

判決

and sort of the official voice on:

以及官方的說法

"Who is Dr. Li? Is he a good guy or a bad guy?"

「誰是李醫生？ 他是好人還是壞人？」

completely changed 180 degrees.

發生了 180 度的大翻轉。

He went from a doctor who misbehaved

他從一位行為不端的醫生

to the hero who warned the people.

變成了一位警醒人們的英雄。

So under authoritarian government,

因此在極權政府之下，

they still are very aware of public opinion,

他們依然察覺到公眾的意見。

but, on the other hand,

但是，另一方面，

when people complain and when they commemorate Dr. Li,

當人們埋怨、當人們紀念李醫生時，

do they really want to change the system?

他們真的想改變這個制度嗎？

And my answer is no,

我的答案是，不。

because they don't like that particular decision,

因為儘管不喜歡那個特定的決定，

but they don't want to change the system.

他們並不想改變制度。

And one of the reasons is because

其中一個原因是

they have never, ever known another system.

他們從不知道除此之外的其他制度。

This is the system they know how to work.

這是唯一他們知道該如何運作的制度。

HW: What is wok-throwing, Huang?

海倫：晃，什麼是「甩鍋」？

HH: Oh, wok-throwing is when you blame somebody else.

洪晃：噢，甩鍋是指

把責任推卸給他人。

Basically, someone who is responsible in a slang Chinese

基本上，在中國俗語裡，

負責任的人被稱為背著黑鍋，

is someone who carries a black wok.

You are made to be the scapegoat for something that is bad.

意味著此人成為某壞事的代罪羔羊。

So basically, Trump started calling it the "Chinese virus,"

主要是川普開始

把這個病毒稱為「中國病毒」 和「武漢病毒」，

the "Wuhan virus,"

and trying to blame the entire coronavirus pandemic

試圖把整個冠狀病毒疫情 歸咎於中國人；

on the Chinese.

And then the Chinese, I think, threw the wok back at the Americans.

然後，中國人把這個鍋甩回給美國人。

So it was a very funny joke on Chinese social media,

在中國社交媒體上， 這次甩鍋成為可笑的笑話。

that wok-throwing.

There's a wok-throwing gymnastics aerobics exercise video that went viral.

甚至有一個甩鍋的健美操影片爆紅了。

HW: But tell us, Huang:

海倫：晃，告訴我們，

You're also doing dances on TikTok, right?

你有在抖音上跳舞，對嗎？

HH: Oh, of course.

洪晃：噢，那當然了。

I'm doing a lot of wok-throwing aerobics on TikTok.

我在抖音上做了不少甩鍋體操呢。

HW: I mean, a potential silver lining of all of this is that it has laid bare

海倫：我的意思是， 這一切中的一線希望是

它揭發了一些制度上的不公正

some of the inequities, inequalities in the system,

some of the broken structures that we have,

和現存被破壞的結構，

and if we're smart, we can rebuild better.

如果我們機靈的話， 我們可以更好地重建。

HH: Yes. I think one of the silver linings of this pandemic

洪晃：是的，我認為這場疫情 其中一線希望是

is that we do realize

我們終於意識到

that the human race has to do something together

全人類需要一起合作，

rather than to be distinguished by our race, by the color of our skin

而不是被依種族、膚色或國籍來區分。

or by our nationality;

that this virus obviously is not discriminating against anyone,

這個病毒當然沒有針對任何人，

whether you are rich or poor,

不管你富有還是貧窮，

important or not important

重要還是不重要，

or whatever skin color or nationality you are.

不管你有什麼膚色和什麼國籍。

So it is a time to be together,

所以，這是一個團結的時候，

rather than to try to pull the world apart

而不是分裂這個世界

and crawl back to our own nationalistic shells.

並爬回到我們自己國家主義的外殼裡。

HW: It's a beautiful sentiment.

海倫：那真是一個美好的觀點。

Huang Hung, thank you so much for joining us from Beijing.

洪晃，感謝你在北京參加我們的節目。

Stay well, please.

請多多保重。

HH: Thank you, Helen, and you stay well as well.

洪晃：謝謝你，海倫， 你也請多多保重。