How to fix a broken education system ... without any more money | Seema Bansal

270,736 views ・ 2016-07-20

TED


请双击下面的英文字幕来播放视频。

翻译人员: Wei Wu 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang
00:12
So we all have our own biases.
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我们对很多事情都有自己的偏见。
00:15
For example, some of us tend to think
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例如, 我们可能会认为
00:17
that it's very difficult to transform failing government systems.
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要改革腐朽的政府机构是很难的。
00:21
When we think of government systems,
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当我们聊到政府机构时,
00:23
we tend to think that they're archaic, set in their ways,
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我们会觉得肯定是腐朽的、顽固的,
00:27
and perhaps, the leadership is just too bureaucratic
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而且领导层都非常的官僚主义,
00:29
to be able to change things.
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拒绝可能的革新。
00:32
Well, today, I want to challenge that theory.
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那么,今天,我会尝试挑战下这个观点。
00:35
I want to tell you a story of a very large government system
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我的故事是关于一个非常大的政府机构,
00:39
that has not only put itself on the path of reform
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这个机构不仅积极的进行改革,
00:43
but has also shown fairly spectacular results
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而且改革仅仅三年时间就已经取得了
00:46
in less than three years.
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非常不错的效果。
00:48
This is what a classroom in a public school in India looks like.
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这是印度的公立小学的常见景象。
00:53
There are 1 million such schools in India.
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印度有一百万公立学校。
00:55
And even for me, who's lived in India all her life,
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即使像我这样在印度土生土长的人,
走进这样的学校依然会让我觉得心碎。
00:59
walking into one of these schools is fairly heartbreaking.
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01:03
By the time kids are 11,
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这些孩子在11岁的时候,
01:05
50 percent of them have fallen so far behind in their education
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有差不多一半的人在学习上掉队严重,
01:09
that they have no hope to recover.
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严重到很难赶上。
01:11
11-year-olds cannot do simple addition,
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到了十一岁还无法做简单的加法,
01:14
they cannot construct a grammatically correct sentence.
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无法拼写出语法正确的句子。
01:17
These are things that you and I would expect an 8-year-old
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而这些都是你我会预期一个八岁的孩子
01:21
to be able to do.
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就应该会的。
01:22
By the time kids are 13 or 14,
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在他们13或14岁的时候,
01:25
they tend to drop out of schools.
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他们很可能会退学。
01:28
In India, public schools not only offer free education --
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在印度,公立学校不仅提供免费教育——
01:31
they offer free textbooks, free workbooks, free meals,
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还提供免费教材,免费作业本,免费午餐,
01:35
sometimes even cash scholarships.
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有时候甚至提供奖学金。
01:37
And yet, 40 percent of the parents today
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即便如此,如今多达四成的家长
01:40
are choosing to pull their children out of public schools
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依然选择将他们的孩子从公立学校
01:43
and pay out of their pockets to put them in private schools.
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转去需要自掏腰包的私立学校。
01:47
As a comparison, in a far richer country, the US,
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而比印度富裕得多的美国,
01:51
that number is only 10 percent.
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这个比例只有一成而已。
01:53
That's a huge statement on how broken the Indian public education system is.
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这个数字印证了印度的 公共教育系统现在有多糟糕。
01:59
So it was with that background that I got a call in the summer of 2013
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正是在这样的大环境下,2013年的夏天,
02:03
from an absolutely brilliant lady called Surina Rajan.
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我接到了一位非常睿智的女士的电话, 她叫 Surina Rajan。
02:07
She was, at that time, the head of the Department of School Education
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她当时是印度 Haryana 省(邦)
02:11
in a state called Haryana in India.
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基础教育厅的厅长。 (译注:全文按大陆行政体系翻译)
02:14
So she said to us, "Look, I've been heading this department
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她告诉我,"你看,我已经领导这个部门
02:17
for the last two years.
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有两年时间了。
02:18
I've tried a number of things, and nothing seems to work.
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我尝试了很多方法,都没有效果。
你看看能否帮上忙?”
02:22
Can you possibly help?"
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02:24
Let me describe Haryana a little bit to you.
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让我先简单介绍下 Haryana 省的情况。
02:27
Haryana is a state which has 30 million people.
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Haryana 省有约三千万人口,
02:31
It has 15,000 public schools
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有一万五千所公立学校,
02:34
and 2 million plus children in those public schools.
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为超过两百万孩子提供教育。
02:38
So basically, with that phone call,
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简单地说,在那通电话里,
02:40
I promised to help a state and system
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我答应要帮助这个省的教育系统进行改革,
改革的规模跟 整个秘鲁或加拿大的差不多。
02:43
which was as large as that of Peru or Canada transform itself.
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02:48
As I started this project, I was very painfully aware of two things.
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当我开始着手干的时候, 我很快发现两间让人沮丧的事实。
02:52
One, that I had never done anything like this before.
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首先,我从来没有处理这类问题的经验。
02:55
And two, many others had, perhaps without too much success.
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其次, 其他人的尝试也大多以失败告终。
03:00
As my colleagues and I looked across the country
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我和同事把印度全国调研了个遍,
然后放眼全球,
03:03
and across the world,
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03:04
we couldn't find another example
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也没有找到任何样板
03:06
that we could just pick up and replicate in Haryana.
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能够直接拿过来套用在 Haryana 省上。
03:09
We knew that we had to craft our own journey.
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我们意识到需要自己走出一条路。
03:12
But anyway, we jumped right in and as we jumped in,
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不管怎样,我们决定开始动手干,
03:15
all sorts of ideas started flying at us.
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一下子我们就想到了很多点子。
03:18
People said, "Let's change the way we recruit teachers,
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有人说,"我们对聘请教师进行改革,
03:21
let's hire new principals and train them
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应该聘请新校长并且训练他们,
03:24
and send them on international learning tours,
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把他们都送到国外进行培训,
03:26
let's put technology inside classrooms."
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还要引入现代化的教学设备。"
03:29
By the end of week one, we had 50 ideas on the table,
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一个星期下来我们就收集了超过五十个想法,
03:31
all amazing, all sounded right.
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看起来都非常不错, 都应该立刻着手实施。
但是我们显然不可能同时做50件事情。
03:34
There was no way we were going to be able to implement 50 things.
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03:39
So I said, "Hang on, stop.
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所以我说,"等下,先等下。
03:41
Let's first at least decide what is it we're trying to achieve."
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至少让我们先定一个目标再说。"
03:44
So with a lot of push and pull and debate,
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经过来来回回的讨论和争辩,
03:47
Haryana set itself a goal which said: by 2020,
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Haryana 省的教育改革目标定了下来:
03:51
we want 80 percent of our children to be at grade-level knowledge.
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到2020年超过80%的学生 能按时升入下一年级。
03:55
Now the specifics of the goal don't matter here,
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这个目标的具体内容并不是重点,
03:58
but what matters is how specific the goal is.
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重点是这个目标为我们指明了方向。
04:01
Because it really allowed us to take all those ideas
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现在这个目标为我们确定了一个标准,
04:04
which were being thrown at us
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让我们在面对各种新点子的时候
04:06
and say which ones we were going to implement.
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有了一个明确的筛选标准。
04:08
Does this idea support this goal? If yes, let's keep it.
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这个点子对于我们的目标有帮助吗? 如果有,我们就继续往下做。
04:12
But if it doesn't or we're not sure, then let's put it aside.
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如果不能或者我们不确定, 就先把这个想法放到一边。
04:16
As simple as it sounds, having a very specific goal right up front
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这个听起来非常简单的做法, 让我们能够目标明确,
04:20
has really allowed us to be very sharp and focused
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在教育改革的道路上
04:24
in our transformation journey.
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保持专注和敏捷。
04:25
And looking back over the last two and a half years,
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两年半之后回头看当时的决定,
04:28
that has been a huge positive for us.
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对我们帮助是巨大的。
04:31
So we had the goal,
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有了目标之后,
04:32
and now we needed to figure out what are the issues, what is broken.
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现在就需要找到问题所在,追本溯源。
04:37
Before we went into schools, a lot of people told us
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在我们去学校实地考察之前, 很多人告诉我们
04:39
that education quality is poor
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基础教育之所以糟糕,
04:41
because either the teachers are lazy, they don't come into schools,
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要么是因为教师们的懒惰, 他们时常缺勤不来学校,
04:45
or they're incapable, they actually don't know how to teach.
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要么是教师无能, 不具备授课的技能。
04:49
Well, when we went inside schools, we found something completely different.
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但是当我们在学校实地调研的时候, 发现完全不是这样。
04:53
On most days, most teachers were actually inside schools.
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绝大多数老师在上班时间都是出勤的。
04:57
And when you spoke with them,
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我们通过与老师们的交谈,
04:59
you realized they were perfectly capable of teaching elementary classes.
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发现他们完全有能力教小学课程。
05:03
But they were not teaching.
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问题是他们的时间没花在上课上。
05:06
I went to a school
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我去的一所学校,
05:08
where the teachers were getting the construction of a classroom
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里面的老师在忙着监督盖教室
05:11
and a toilet supervised.
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和厕所设施。
05:13
I went to another school
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我去的另一所学校,
05:15
where two of the teachers had gone to a nearby bank branch
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两个老师需要跑到附近的银行柜台
05:18
to deposit scholarship money into kids' accounts.
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一个一个的把奖学金存到学生的账户里去。
05:21
At lunchtime, most teachers were spending all of their time
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午饭的时候, 基本上所有的老师都动员起来
05:25
getting the midday meal cooking, supervised and served to the students.
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参与或监督午饭的准备和分发,为学生服务。
05:30
So we asked the teachers,
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于是我们问这些老师,
05:32
"What's going on, why are you not teaching?"
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"这是怎么了, 为什么你们都不去教课?"
05:35
And they said, "This is what's expected of us.
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他们回答, "因为这就是我们被要求做的呀。
05:38
When a supervisor comes to visit us,
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当教委领导来我们这里视察的时候,
05:40
these are exactly the things that he checks.
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这些就是他们检查的内容。
05:43
Has the toilet been made, has the meal been served.
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厕所有没有建好,午饭供应是否正常。
05:45
When my principal goes to a meeting at headquarters,
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当我们的校长去首都开会的时候,
05:49
these are exactly the things which are discussed."
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他们讨论的也都是这些事情。"
05:52
You see, what had happened was, over the last two decades,
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你看,实际上在过去二十年间,
05:56
India had been fighting the challenge of access, having enough schools,
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印度为了让学生入学做了很多, 建立了足够的学校,
06:00
and enrollment, bringing children into the schools.
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并且努力地让适龄儿童进入学校读书。
06:03
So the government launched a whole host of programs
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政府发起了一系列项目
06:06
to address these challenges,
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来保证中小学入学率,
06:08
and the teachers became the implicit executors of these programs.
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而老师们变成了这些项目 实际上的执行人员。
06:13
Not explicitly, but implicitly.
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虽然没有明确要求,但是 他们就是实际的执行者。
06:16
And now, what was actually needed was not to actually train teachers further
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现在我们真正需要的, 不是培训这些老师,
06:21
or to monitor their attendance
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也不是监督他们出勤,
06:23
but to tell them that what is most important
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而是告诉他们,相比刚才说的那些事情,
06:27
is for them to go back inside classrooms and teach.
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回到教室上课才是他们最重要的任务。
06:30
They needed to be monitored and measured and awarded
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我们应该以课堂教学的质量
来跟踪、评价和奖励老师,
06:34
on the quality of teaching
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06:35
and not on all sorts of other things.
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而不是用别的事情来考核他们。
06:38
So as we went through the education system,
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当我们对教育体系有了 更深入的了解之后,
06:40
as we delved into it deeper, we found a few such core root causes
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我们找到了一些问题的根源所在,
06:45
which were determining, which were shaping how people behaved in the system.
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这些根源决定着教育系统中 老师和其他人的行为。
06:49
And we realized that unless we change those specific things,
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我们意识到除非我们解决了 这些根源上的问题,
06:53
we could do a number of other things.
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否则我们可以做的其它的改革措施,
06:55
We could train, we could put technology into schools,
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例如教师培训、引入新技术,
06:58
but the system wouldn't change.
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都不会起到真正的改善作用。
07:00
And addressing these non-obvious core issues
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于是处理这些隐藏在背后的核心问题
07:03
became a key part of the program.
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称为改革项目的重中之重。
07:06
So, we had the goal and we had the issues,
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现在我们已经设定好了目标, 也找到了问题根源,
07:09
and now we needed to figure out what the solutions were.
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现在就差解决方案了。
07:12
We obviously did not want to recreate the wheel,
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我们不希望闭门造车,
07:15
so we said, "Let's look around and see what we can find."
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相反地,我们决定 "尽量从他人现有的经验中学习。"
07:18
And we found these beautiful, small pilot experiments
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我们也确实在印度和世界范围内 找到了一些成功案例,
07:23
all over the country and all over the world.
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规模不大,但效果非常好。
07:26
Small things being done by NGOs, being done by foundations.
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这些成功案例一般由NGO(非政府组织) 或者基金会参与完成。
07:30
But what was also interesting was that none of them actually scaled.
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但是这些成功案例都有一个问题, 就是他们的规模有严重的局限性。
07:34
All of them were limited to 50, 100 or 500 schools.
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所有的案例规模都只有50所, 100所或者最多500所学校。
07:37
And here, we were looking for a solution for 15,000 schools.
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我们要找的是能适用于 15000所学校的方案。
07:41
So we looked into why,
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我们仔细分析了原因,
07:42
if these things actually work, why don't they actually scale?
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如果这些项目效果显著, 为什么不能扩大规模?
07:46
What happens is that when a typical NGO comes in,
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我们发现, 当NGO参与进来时,
07:49
they not only bring in their expertise
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他们不仅投入了他们的专业经验,
07:52
but they also bring in additional resources.
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还能够投入额外的资源。
07:54
So they might bring in money,
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NGO可能投入额外的资金,
07:56
they might bring in people,
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可能投入额外的人力,
07:57
they might bring in technology.
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也有可能投入新的技术。
07:59
And in the 50 or 100 schools that they actually operate in,
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当NGO主持的项目的规模限制在 50所或者100所学校的时候,
08:04
those additional resources actually create a difference.
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这些额外投入的资源产生了很好的效果。
08:07
But now imagine that the head of this NGO
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但是想象一下,
这些NGO的负责人跑到省教育厅,说:
08:10
goes to the head of the School Education Department
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08:12
and says, "Hey, now let's do this for 15,000 schools."
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“让我们在15000所学校推广吧!”
08:16
Where is that guy or girl going to find the money
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问题是到哪儿去募集到足够多的资金
08:19
to actually scale this up to 15,000 schools?
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能同时支持15000所学校呢?
08:22
He doesn't have the additional money,
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他们没有这么多额外的资金,
也没有这么多额外的资源。
08:24
he doesn't have the resources.
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08:25
And hence, innovations don't scale.
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所以这样的创新项目没办法大范围推广。
08:28
So right at the beginning of the project, what we said was,
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所以在项目开始的时候我们就明确了,
08:32
"Whatever we have to do has to be scalable,
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"不管我们做什么都要能够大规模推广,
一定要能够同时支持15000所学校。"
08:35
it has to work in all 15,000 schools."
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08:38
And hence, it has to work within the existing budgets
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因此,我们必须在现有的政府预算内
08:42
and resources that the state actually has.
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利用省内现有的资源达成目标。
08:45
Much easier said than done.
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说起来比做起来容易多了。
08:47
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
08:48
I think this was definitely the point in time
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我想正是从这个时间点开始
08:51
when my team hated me.
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我的同事开始"恨"我了。
08:52
We spent a lot of long hours in office, in cafés,
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我们花了很多的时间,无论是在办公室, 咖啡馆,
甚至在酒吧,
08:58
sometimes even in bars,
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08:59
scratching out heads and saying,
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想破了脑袋,
09:01
"Where are the solutions, how are we going to solve this problem?"
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"到底应该怎么办, 怎样才能解决这些问题?"
09:04
In the end, I think we did find solutions to many of the issues.
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最终, 我觉得大部分的问题 都找到了比较好的解决方法。
09:08
I'll give you an example.
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我来举个例子。
09:10
In the context of effective learning,
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在"如何更有效率地学习"这个问题上,
09:12
one of the things people talk about is hands-on learning.
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人们常说要通过动手操作来加深印象。
09:15
Children shouldn't memorize things from books,
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学生不应该死记硬背,
09:17
they should do activities,
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而是应该做些课堂活动,
09:19
and that's a more effective way to learn.
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这样学习的效果更好。
09:21
Which basically means giving students things
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这个想法实现起来就是要给学生一些教具,
09:23
like beads, learning rods, abacuses.
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例如(算术用的)小珠子、小棒子、 算盘之类。
09:27
But we did not have the budgets to give that
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但是我们没有那么多预算
09:29
to 15,000 schools, 2 million children.
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提供给15000所学校的两百万学生。
09:32
We needed another solution.
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我们要想别的方法。
09:34
We couldn't think of anything.
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但是始终没有想到解决方法。
09:36
One day, one of our team members went to a school
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有一天,我们一个同事在一所学校里
09:39
and saw a teacher pick up sticks and stones from the garden outside
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看到一个老师,从学校周围的花丛里 捡了点小树枝和小石子
09:43
and take them into the classroom
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拿到了教室里
09:45
and give them to the students.
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分给了学生(用于教学)。
09:47
That was a huge eureka moment for us.
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这一幕让我们灵光一闪。
09:51
So what happens now in the textbooks in Haryana
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于是现在在 Haryana 省的课本里,
09:54
is that after every concept, we have a little box
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每一个新知识点的旁边都有一段注解,
09:57
which are instructions for the teachers which say,
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为老师提供了一个操作清单,
09:59
"To teach this concept, here's an activity that you can do.
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"教授这个知识点的时候你可以 通过以下活动来促进学生理解。
10:03
And by the way, in order to actually do this activity,
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活动需要一些辅助的教具,
10:06
here are things that you can use from your immediate environment,
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而你可以在你周边环境中找到,
10:10
whether it be the garden outside or the classroom inside,
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无论是在室外还是教室内都可以就地取材,
10:13
which can be used as learning aids for kids."
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用于课堂教学。"
10:16
And we see teachers all over Haryana
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我们后来看到 Haryana 省的老师们
10:18
using lots of innovative things to be able to teach students.
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想出了各种创新的方法来教育学生。
10:22
So in this way, whatever we designed,
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从这个角度看,我们的方法虽然简陋,
10:26
we were actually able to implement it
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但是起到了实实在在的效果,
10:28
across all 15,000 schools from day one.
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并且从第一天起就能推广到全省15000所学校。
10:32
Now, this brings me to my last point.
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现在,让我阐述下最后一个观点。
10:34
How do you implement something across 15,000 schools
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你怎么样让一件事情贯彻到15000所学校,
10:37
and 100,000 teachers?
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贯彻到十万名老师身上呢?
10:40
The department used to have a process
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教育部门之前有一套流程,
10:42
which is very interesting.
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我觉得非常有意思。
10:43
I like to call it "The Chain of Hope."
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我喜欢叫这个过程“希望的链条”。
10:48
They would write a letter from the headquarters
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从教育厅开始,写一封信件,
10:50
and send it to the next level,
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然后投递给下一集教育部门,
10:52
which was the district offices.
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一般是市县级教委办公室。
10:54
They would hope that in each of these district offices,
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教育厅希望每个下级部门的
10:56
an officer would get the letter, would open it, read it
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部门领导都能够阅读这封信件,
11:00
and then forward it to the next level,
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然后再将信件转发给他们的下一级,
11:02
which was the block offices.
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一般是区级教委。
接下来你需要指望这些区级教委,
11:05
And then you would hope that at the block office,
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11:08
somebody else got the letter,
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有人能够收到邮件,
11:10
opened it, read it and forwarded it eventually to the 15,000 principals.
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阅读完信件,并最终将信件送到 15000所学校的校长手里。
11:14
And then one would hope that the principals
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最后,我们还要指望所有的校长
能够顺利收到邮件,阅读并理解其中的意思,
11:17
got the letter, received it, understood it
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11:19
and started implementing it.
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并开始实施。
11:21
It was a little bit ridiculous.
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这个过程有点夸张。
11:24
Now, we knew technology was the answer,
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现在,我们知道正确的方式是借助科技。
11:27
but we also knew that most of these schools
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但是我们也知道大部分的学校
11:29
don't have a computer or email.
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连个电脑或者电邮地址都没有。
11:32
However, what the teachers do have are smartphones.
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但是每个老师现在都有智能手机了。
11:35
They're constantly on SMS, on Facebook and on WhatsApp.
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老师们都可以收发短信, 挂在Facebook和WhatsApp上。
11:40
So what now happens in Haryana is,
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现在在 Haryana 省我们是这么做的,
11:42
all principals and teachers are divided into hundreds of WhatsApp groups
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我们建立了几百个 WhatsApp 群, 把所有的校长和老师都加到里面,
11:47
and anytime something needs to be communicated,
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这样当我们需要传达一些信息的时候,
11:50
it's just posted across all WhatsApp groups.
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我们就直接通过WhatsApp群发就行了。
11:53
It spreads like wildfire.
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"嗖"的一下就全省都通知到了。
11:55
You can immediately check who has received it,
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你还能随时知道哪些人收到了消息,
11:58
who has read it.
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哪些人已经阅读了。
12:00
Teachers can ask clarification questions instantaneously.
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老师们如果有不明白的地方可以立刻提出。
12:03
And what's interesting is,
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有趣的是,
12:05
it's not just the headquarters who are answering these questions.
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不仅是教育厅会有人回答老师的问题,
12:08
Another teacher from a completely different part of the state
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有时候别的市县的老师
12:11
will stand up and answer the question.
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也会主动提供答案。
12:13
Everybody's acting as everybody's peer group,
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大家在群组中更像是互助的关系,
12:16
and things are getting implemented.
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很多事情就这么推动起来了。
12:19
So today, when you go to a school in Haryana,
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所以现在你去Haryana省的任何一所学校,
12:22
things look different.
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情况都跟过去大不相同了。
12:23
The teachers are back inside classrooms,
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老师们回到了课堂,
12:26
they're teaching.
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重新走上了讲台。
12:27
Often with innovative techniques.
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新的技术不断被引入到课堂中。
12:29
When a supervisor comes to visit the classroom,
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当教委领导视察学校时,
12:32
he or she not only checks the construction of the toilet
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不仅会检查是否修了厕所,
12:36
but also what is the quality of teaching.
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也会检查教学质量。
12:40
Once a quarter, all students across the state
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每个季度,全省的学生
12:43
are assessed on their learning outcomes
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都要做一次全省的摸底考试,
12:45
and schools which are doing well are rewarded.
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考得好的学校会被奖励。
12:48
And schools which are not doing so well
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表现的不好的学校,
12:50
find themselves having difficult conversations.
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教委会找校长谈话。
12:53
Of course, they also get additional support
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当然,这些学校会得到更多扶持,
12:55
to be able to do better in the future.
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并努力在未来表现得更好。
12:59
In the context of education,
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在教育领域,
13:00
it's very difficult to see results quickly.
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很难看到立竿见影的成果。
13:03
When people talk about systemic, large-scale change,
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当人们谈论大规模的、系统性的改革时,
13:06
they talk about periods of 7 years and 10 years.
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一般说的是7到10年为一个周期。
13:10
But not in Haryana.
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但是Haryana要快得多。
13:12
In the last one year, there have been three independent studies,
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去年,三个相互独立的研究在Haryana进行,
13:16
all measuring student learning outcomes,
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都是研究学生的学习效果的,
13:18
which indicate that something fundamental,
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它们都表明在Haryana省,
13:21
something unique is happening in Haryana.
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一些根本性的东西正在变化。
13:23
Learning levels of children have stopped declining,
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学生的平均学习成绩不再下滑,
13:26
and they have started going up.
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甚至开始有所上升。
13:28
Haryana is one of the few states in the country
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Haryana是全印度为数不多的
13:31
which is showing an improvement,
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总体学生成绩在改善的省份,
13:33
and certainly the one that is showing the fastest rate of improvement.
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而且当之无愧是改善速度最快的省份。
13:38
These are still early signs,
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这些还只是起步阶段,
13:39
there's a long way to go,
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还有很长路要走,
13:40
but this gives us a lot of hope for the future.
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但是我们从中看到了很大的希望。
13:44
I recently went to a school,
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我最近去一所学校,
13:46
and as I was leaving,
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准备离开的时候,
13:48
I ran into a lady,
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遇到了一位女士,
13:49
her name was Parvati,
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她叫Parvati,
13:50
she was the mother of a child,
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她的孩子在这里上学,
13:52
and she was smiling.
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她正微笑着。
13:53
And I said, "Why are you smiling, what's going on?"
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我问她,"你在笑什么?有什么好玩的事情吗?"
13:56
And she said, "I don't know what's going on,
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她说,"我也不知道发生了什么,
13:59
but what I do know is that my children are learning,
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但是我知道我的孩子们开始学习了,
14:02
they're having fun,
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学得还挺开心。
14:04
and for the time being, I'll stop my search for a private school
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现在我已经决定不再找私立学校
14:07
to send them to."
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让他们转校了。"
14:09
So I go back to where I started:
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最后让我们回到开始的问题:
14:11
Can government systems transform?
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政府机构能够改革吗?
14:14
I certainly believe so.
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我很确信可以。
14:15
I think if you give them the right levers,
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我相信如果你提供了合适的着力点,
14:17
they can move mountains.
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他们就能够带来翻天覆地的变化。 (意译:阿基米德"给我一个支点, 我能翘起地球")
14:19
Thank you.
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谢谢。
14:20
(Applause)
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(掌声)
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