Why Gender Equality Is Good for Everyone — Men Included | Michael Kimmel | TED Talks

譯者: Allen Kuo 審譯者: lin quan

I'm here to recruit men to support gender equality.

我在此邀請男士們支持性別平等。

(Cheers)

(歡呼聲)

Wait, wait. What?

等等、等等，什麼?

What do men have to do with gender equality?

男士們和性別平等有什麼關係?

Gender equality is about women, right?

性別平等只和女性有關，對吧?

I mean, the word gender is about women.

我是說，性別這個詞和女性有關。

Actually, I'm even here speaking as a middle class white man.

事實上，我以一位 中產階級男性的身分在此演講。

Now, I wasn't always a middle class white man.

但我並非一直都是 中產階級的白人男性。

It all happened for me about 30 years ago when I was in graduate school,

這件事是大約30年前 我在讀研究所時發生的，

and a bunch of us graduate students got together one day,

有一天，我們一群研究生聚在一起，

and we said, you know, there's an explosion

我們說，

女性主義理論的文章和思想 正如爆炸般蔓延，

of writing and thinking in feminist theory,

but there's no courses yet.

卻還沒有人開設相關課程。

So we did what graduate students typically do in a situation like that.

所以我們做了研究生 一般在此情況下會做的事，

We said, OK, let's have a study group.

我們說，好，我們來成立一個讀書會，

We'll read a text, we'll talk about it,

一起讀點文章、然後討論，

we'll have a potluck dinner.

當然還有一些晚餐聚會。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So every week, 11 women and me got together.

所以每星期，我都和 11位女性聚在一起。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

We would read some text in feminist theory and have a conversation about it.

我們會讀一些女性主義理論 的文章，然後討論。

And during one of our conversations,

在其中一次討論中，

I witnessed an interaction that changed my life forever.

我看到一個從此改變我一生 的一個互動。

It was a conversation between two women.

那是兩個女性間的談話。

One of the women was white, and one was black.

其中一位是白人，另一位則是黑人。

And the white woman said --

白人女性說 －

this is going to sound very anachronistic now --

現在聽起來會覺得非常不合時宜 －

the white woman said, "All women face the same oppression as women.

白人女性說：「所有女人 都因女人的身分受到同樣的壓迫。

All women are similarly situated in patriarchy,

所有女人在父權社會下都有類似處境，

and therefore all women have a kind of intuitive solidarity or sisterhood."

因此所有女人都出於直覺地 有種團結或姐妹意識。」

And the black woman said, "I'm not so sure.

那位黑人女性說：「這我可不確定。

Let me ask you a question."

我問你一個問題。」

So the black woman says to the white woman,

所以那位黑人女性對那位白人女性說：

"When you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror,

「當你早上起來，往鏡子裡看，

what do you see?"

你看到什麼?」

白人女性說：「我看到一個女人。」

And the white woman said, "I see a woman."

And the black woman said, "You see, that's the problem for me.

黑人女性說：「你看，對我而言， 那就是問題所在。

Because when I wake up in the morning and I look in the mirror," she said,

因我當我早上起來時，我往鏡子裡看，

"I see a black woman.

我看到的是一個女黑人。

To me, race is visible. But to you, race is invisible. You don't see it."

對我來說，種族是看得見的。 但對你來說，種族是隱形的。你看不見。」

And then she said something really startling.

然後她接下來說的更令人吃驚。

She said, "That's how privilege works.

她說，「特權就是這樣運作的，

Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

擁有特權的人看不到它。」

It is a luxury, I will say to the white people sitting in this room,

我要對在座的白人說， 你們不用在生活中的每個時刻

not to have to think about race every split second of our lives.

思考種族這回事，是件很奢侈的事。

Privilege is invisible to those who have it.

特權對於擁有者來說，是隱形的。

Now remember, I was the only man in this group,

記得嗎？我是這個團體唯一的男人，

so when I witnessed this, I went, "Oh no."

當我目擊這一切時， 我心想：「喔，糟了。」

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And somebody said, "Well what was that reaction?"

有人問：「你為什麼會有這種反應?」

And I said, "Well, when I wake up in the morning and I look in the mirror,

我回答：「嗯...因為當我 早上起來照鏡子時，

I see a human being.

我看到的是一個人。

I'm kind of the generic person.

我只是一個普通的人。

You know, I'm a middle class white man. I have no race, no class, no gender.

我是一個中產階級白人， 沒有種族、沒有階級、沒有性別。

I'm universally generalizable."

是個舉世通用的身分。」

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So I like to think that was the moment I became a middle class white man,

所以我喜歡這麼想：在那個時刻 我才成為一個中產階級白人，

that class and race and gender were not about other people,

階級、種族和性別不是只和別人有關，

they were about me.

它們也跟我有關。

I had to start thinking about them,

我必須開始思考這些問題，

and it had been privilege that had kept it invisible to me for so long.

因為特權讓我長久以來 一直看不見它們。

Now, I wish I could tell you this story ends 30 years ago

現在，我倒希望這個故事 就結束在30年前的那個小組討論，

in that little discussion group,

but I was reminded of it quite recently at my university where I teach.

但最近又在我任教的大學被提醒了。

I have a colleague, and she and I both teach the sociology of gender course

我有個同事， 她和我教同一堂性別社會學的課，

on alternate semesters.

開設在不同學期。

So she gives a guest lecture for me when I teach.

所以她在我的課上擔任客座講師，

I give a guest lecture for her when she teaches.

我也在她的課上擔任客座講師。

So I walk into her class to give a guest lecture,

某次我走進她的班級當客座講師，

about 300 students in the room,

教室裡大約有300個學生，

and as I walk in, one of the students looks up and says,

而我走進去時，一個學生看到我就說，

"Oh, finally, an objective opinion."

「喔，終於有客觀的意見了。」

All that semester, whenever my colleague opened her mouth,

那整個學期，我同事無論何時開口，

what my students saw was a woman.

都提到她的學生看到的是一個女人。

I mean, if you were to say to my students,

我意思是，如果你對我的學生說：

"There is structural inequality based on gender in the United States,"

「美國在性別上有結構性的不平等，」

they'd say, "Well of course you'd say that.

他們會說：「當然你會這麼說，

因為你是女人，你有偏見。」

You're a woman. You're biased."

When I say it, they go, "Wow, is that interesting.

當我說的時候，他們會說， 「哇，這很有趣，

Is that going to be on the test? How do you spell 'structural'?"

那會出現在考題嗎？ 『結構性』怎麼拼？」

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So I hope you all can see,

所以我希望你們都可以看到，

this is what objectivity looks like.

客觀大概就長這樣。

(Laughter) (Applause)

(笑聲)(掌聲)

Disembodied Western rationality.

我代表了無形的西方理性。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And that, by the way, is why I think men so often wear ties.

順便提一下，我想那是 男人經常打領帶的原因。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Because if you are going to embody disembodied Western rationality,

因為如果你要體現無形的西方理性，

you need a signifier,

你需要一個信物，

and what could be a better signifier of disembodied Western rationality

而對無形的西方理性而言， 還有什麼比這個更好的信物 －

than a garment that at one end is a noose and the other end points to the genitals?

把一端打結成絞索， 另一端則指著生殖器的東西?

(Laughter) (Applause)

(笑聲)(掌聲)

That is mind-body dualism right there.

這就是身心二元論。

So making gender visible to men

讓男人看到性別

is the first step to engaging men to support gender equality.

是讓他們支持男女平等的第一步。

Now, when men first hear about gender equality,

當男人第一次聽到性別平等，

when they first start thinking about it,

當他們開始思考這個議題，

they often think, many men think,

他們通常認為 － 許多男人認為，

well, that's right, that's fair, that's just,

對啊，那樣才對，那是公平、公正，

that's the ethical imperative.

那是道德義務。

But not all men.

但並非所有男人。

Some men think -- the lightning bolt goes off,

有些男人認為 － 閃電熄滅了，

and they go, "Oh my God, yes, gender equality,"

他們會想：「我的天，對，性別平等」

and they will immediately begin to mansplain to you your oppression.

然後立刻開始搬出男性至上的觀點 對你們進行壓迫。

They see supporting gender equality something akin to the cavalry,

他們認為支持性別平等等同苦難，

like, "Thanks very much for bringing this to our attention, ladies,

他們會想，「女士們，感謝你們 提出這個引起我們的注意，

we'll take it from here."

我們會看著辦。」

This results in a syndrome that I like to call 'premature self-congratulation.'

形成一種我喜歡稱為 「過早沾沾自喜」的症狀。

(Laughter) (Applause)

(笑聲)(掌聲)

There's another group, though, that actively resists gender equality,

當然還有一群人，積極打壓性別平等，

that sees gender equality as something that is detrimental to men.

他們將性別平等視為一種 對男人有害的東西。

I was on a TV talk show opposite four white men.

我曾在一個電視談話節目 面對四個白人男性。

This is the beginning of the book I wrote, 'Angry White Men.'

這是日後我寫下《憤怒的白人男性》 這本書的起源。

These were four angry white men

四個憤怒的白人男性，

who believed that they, white men in America,

相信他們這些美國白人男性，

were the victims of reverse discrimination in the workplace.

是工作場合裡逆向性別歧視的受害者。

And they all told stories about how they were qualified for jobs,

他們訴說自己如何勝任一些工作、

qualified for promotions,

擁有升遷的資格，

they didn't get them, they were really angry.

卻沒有得到機會，他們非常生氣。

And the reason I'm telling you this is I want you to hear the title

我之所以告訴各位這件事， 是想讓大家聽聽這個節目的名稱。

of this particular show.

It was a quote from one of the men,

那是引述自其中一位的話，

and the quote was,

而這句話是：

"A Black Woman Stole My Job."

「一個女黑人偷了我的工作。」

And they all told their stories,

他們每個都訴說自己的故事，

qualified for jobs, qualified for promotions,

如何勝任工作、如何有資格升遷

卻得不到，非常生氣。

didn't get it, really angry.

And then it was my turn to speak,

然後輪到我說話，

and I said, "I have just one question for you guys,

我說：「我對你們只有一個問題，

and it's about the title of the show,

就是這個節目的名稱，

'A Black Woman Stole My Job.'

『一個女黑人偷了我的工作』

Actually, it's about one word in the title.

實際上，我的問題在其中一個詞。

I want to know about the word 'my.'

我想知道的是『我的』這個詞，

Where did you get the idea it was your job?

你為什麼會認為這是你的工作?

Why isn't the title of the show, 'A Black Woman Got the Job?'

為什麼節目名稱不是 『一位黑人女性得到那份工作』?

or 'A Black Woman Got A Job?'"

或是『一位黑人女性得到一份工作』？

Because without confronting men's sense of entitlement,

因為如果不是 和男人的權力感有所衝突，

I don't think we'll ever understand why so many men resist gender equality.

我不認為我們真能了解 為何這麼多人打壓性別平等。

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Look, we think this is a level playing field,

請注意，我們認為這樣 才是公平的競爭環境，

so any policy that tilts it even a little bit,

所以任何政策只要讓它偏移一點，

we think, "Oh my God, water's rushing uphill.

我們就想：「我的天，水往上流了。

It's reverse discrimination against us."

這是對我們的逆向歧視。」

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So let me be very clear:

所以我要非常明白地說：

white men in Europe and the United States

在歐洲和美國的白人男性，

are the beneficiaries of the single greatest affirmative action program

是全世界的歷史上最大的 平權活動中的受益者。

in the history of the world.

It is called "the history of the world."

這說的是「全世界的歷史」。

(Laughter) (Applause)

(笑聲)(掌聲)

So, now I've established some of the obstacles to engaging men,

所以，現在我已經製造了 一些吸引男性的阻礙，

but why should we support gender equality?

但為什麼我們應該支持性別平等?

Of course, it's fair, it's right and it's just.

當然，那才公平， 那是正確的、正義的事。

But more than that,

但不僅如此，

gender equality is also in our interest as men.

性別平等也對男人有利。

If you listen to what men say about what they want in their lives,

如果你聽聽男人談論自己 在生命中想要的東西，

gender equality is actually a way for us to get the lives we want to live.

性別平等其實是給予我們 理想生活的一種方式。

Gender equality is good for countries.

性別平等對國家有利。

It turns out, according to most studies,

根據大多數研究的結果，

that those countries that are the most gender equal

性別最平等的國家

are also the countries that score highest on the happiness scale.

同時也是快樂指數最高的國家。

And that's not just because they're all in Europe.

而且不是因為他們都在歐洲。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Even within Europe, those countries that are more gender equal

即使在歐洲的國家中， 性別比較平等的國家

also have the highest levels of happiness.

也是快樂指數最高的。

It is also good for companies.

對公司也有好處。

Research by Catalyst and others has shown conclusively

由Catalyst和其他機構 所做的研結果確切顯示

that the more gender-equal companies are,

公司越是性別平等，

the better it is for workers,

對員工的結果越好，

the happier their labor force is.

因為他們的員工會越快樂。

They have lower job turnover. They have lower levels of attrition.

他們的流動率較低、工作摩擦較少。

They have an easier time recruiting.

他們也比較容易招募到員工。

They have higher rates of retention, higher job satisfaction,

他們擁有較高的 員工留職率、工作滿意度、

higher rates of productivity.

生產力也較高。

So the question I'm often asked in companies is,

所以企業經理人常常問我的問題是：

"Boy, this gender equality thing, that's really going to be expensive, huh?"

「性別平等啊，那要花很多錢，是吧?」

And I say, "Oh no, in fact, what you have to start calculating

然後我說：「喔不，事實上， 你得開始算算

is how much gender inequality is already costing you.

不這麼做已經花了你們多少錢，

It is extremely expensive."

那才是最貴的花費。」

So it is good for business.

所以性別平等對企業是有利的。

And the other thing is, it's good for men.

另一個好處是，它也對男人有利。

It is good for the kind of lives we want to live,

它有利於我們想要過的生活，

because young men especially have changed enormously,

因為現在的年輕男人 和過去有很大的不同，

and they want to have lives that are animated

他們渴望和孩子擁有很棒的親子關係，

by terrific relationships with their children.

來達成美好而動人的生活。

They expect their partners, their spouses, their wives,

他們期待他們的伴侶、配偶、妻子

to work outside the home

外出工作，

and be just as committed to their careers as they are.

和他們一樣專注於事業。

I was talking, to give you an illustration of this change --

現在給各位一個 能說明這個轉變的案例 －

Some of you may remember this.

你們有些人可能記得這個。

When I was a lot younger, there was a riddle that was posed to us.

在我年輕許多時，曾被問過一個謎題，

Some of you may wince to remember this riddle.

有些人可能會皺起眉頭、不太記得，

This riddle went something like this.

但這個謎題是這樣的。

A man and his son are driving on the freeway,

一個男人和他兒子行駛於高速公路上，

and they're in a terrible accident,

他們出了一場嚴重車禍，

and the father is killed,

父親當場死亡，

and the son is brought to the hospital emergency room,

兒子被送到一家醫院的急診室，

and as they're bringing the son into the hospital emergency room,

而當他們將兒子推進急診室時，

the emergency room attending physician sees the boy and says,

急診室的值班醫師看了這個男孩後說，

"Oh, I can't treat him, that's my son."

「哦，我不能治療他，他是我兒子。」

How is this possible?

這怎麼可能呢?

We were flummoxed by this.

這個謎題讓我們非常困惑，

We could not figure this out.

我們無法找出答案。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Well, I decided to do a little experiment with my 16-year old son.

所以，我決定對16歲的兒子 進行一個小實驗，

He had a bunch of his friends hanging out at the house

最近某天他和一群朋友待在家裡，

watching a game on TV recently.

看著電視裡的一場最近的比賽，

So I decided I would pose this riddle to them,

我決定要問他們這個謎題，

just to see, to gauge the level of change.

純粹為了測量一下這個轉變的程度。

Well, 16-year-old boys,

結果，這些16歲的男孩們，

they immediately turned to me and said, "It's his mom." Right?

立即對我說：「那是他媽媽，對吧?」

No problem. Just like that.

毫無猶豫、就那樣回答。

Except for my son, who said, "Well, he could have two dads."

除了我兒子，他說： 「喔，他也可能有兩個爸爸。」

(Laughter) (Applause)

(笑聲)(掌聲)

That's an index, an indicator of how things have changed.

這是一個指標，說明事情的轉變。

Younger men today expect to be able to balance work and family.

今天的年輕男人希望 能在工作和家庭間取得平衡。

They want to be dual-career, dual-carer couples.

他們想要兩人都有事業、 都能顧家的伴侶關係。

They want to be able to balance work and family with their partners.

他們想要和伴侶一起 取得工作和家庭的平衡。

They want to be involved fathers.

他們想當陪著孩子長大的父親。

Now, it turns out

現在，結果發現，

that the more egalitarian our relationships,

我們的關係越平等，

the happier both partners are.

伴侶之間就越快樂。

Data from psychologists and sociologists are quite persuasive here.

對此，心理學家和社會學家 的數據相當有說服力。

I think we have the persuasive numbers, the data, to prove to men

我認為我們已頗具說服力的 數字、數據，來對男人證明

that gender equality is not a zero-sum game, but a win-win.

性別平等不是一個零和遊戲、 而是雙贏局面。

Here's what the data show.

以下是數據告訴我們的：

Now, when men begin the process of engaging

當男人開始參與這個

with balancing work and family,

平衡工作和家庭的過程，

we often have two phrases that we use to describe what we do.

我們經常用兩個詞語描繪該做的事 －

We pitch in and we help out.

努力貢獻、好好幫忙。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And I'm going to propose something a little bit more radical,

現在我要提一個更激進的，

one word: "share."

一個詞：「分擔」

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Because here's what the data show:

因為數據顯示：

when men share housework and childcare,

當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

their children do better in school.

他們的孩子在學校成績越好。

Their children have lower rates of absenteeism,

他們的孩子曠課率較低、

higher rates of achievement.

較能擁有成就感，

They are less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD.

被診斷為注意力不足過動症(ADHD) 的機率較低。

They are less likely to see a child psychiatrist.

他們比較不需要看兒童精神醫師、

They are less likely to be put on medication.

也比較不需要藥物。

So when men share housework and childcare,

所以當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

their children are happier and healthier,

他們的孩子比較快樂、比較健康，

and men want this.

這當然是男人想要的。

When men share housework and childcare,

當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

their wives are happier. Duh.

他們的老婆比較快樂 － 廢話。

Not only that, their wives are healthier.

不僅如此，他們的老婆也比較健康。

Their wives are less likely to see a therapist,

他們的老婆比較不需要心理醫生、

less likely to be diagnosed with depression,

比較不會得憂鬱症、

less likely to be put on medication, more likely to go to the gym,

比較不需要依賴藥物、 比較會去健身房運動、

report higher levels of marital satisfaction.

也反應出較高的婚姻滿意度。

So when men share housework and childcare,

所以當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

their wives are happier and healthier,

他們的老婆也會比較快樂、健康。

and men certainly want this as well.

這當然也是男人想要的。

When men share housework and childcare,

當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

the men are healthier.

他們自己也比較健康。

They smoke less, drink less, take recreational drugs less often.

他們較少抽煙、較少喝酒、 較少使用娛樂性藥物。

They are less likely to go to the ER

他們比較不會進急診室，

but more like to go to a doctor for routine screenings.

但比較會去做例行健康檢查。

They are less likely to see a therapist,

他們比較不需要看心理醫生、

less likely to be diagnosed with depression,

比較不會得憂鬱症、

less likely to be taking prescription medication.

也比較不需要長期藥物治療。

So when men share housework and childcare,

所以當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

the men are happier and healthier.

男人也比較快樂、比較健康。

And who wouldn't want that?

誰會不想要這個呢?

And finally,

最後，

when men share housework and childcare,

當男人分擔家事和照顧小孩，

they have more sex.

他們有更多性生活。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Now, of these four fascinating findings,

現在，在這四個迷人的發現裡，

which one do you think Men's Health magazine put on its cover?

你認為哪一個該被 《男人健康》雜誌放上封面?

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

"Housework Makes Her Horny.

「家事讓她有性緻，

(Not When She Does It.)"

但不是讓她做。」

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Now, I will say,

現在，我想說一件事，

just to remind the men in the audience,

純粹為了提醒在座的男士，

these data were collected over a really long period of time,

這些數據是長時間收集而來的，

so I don't want listeners to say,

所以希望聽到的人不要說：

"Hmm, OK, I think I'll do the dishes tonight."

「嗯，好的，我想今晚我會洗碗。」

These data were collected over a really long period of time.

這些數據是長時間收集而來的。

But I think it shows something important,

但我想這顯示了一件很重要的事，

that when Men's Health magazine put it on their cover,

就是當《男性健康》雜誌 將此放上封面時，

they also called, you'll love this, "Choreplay."

他們稱之為－我想妳們會喜歡： 「家事前戲」。

So, what we found is something really important,

所以，我們發現非常重要的是，

that gender equality

性別平等

is in the interest of countries,

相當有利於國家、

of companies, and of men,

企業、男人、

and their children and their partners,

還有他們的孩子跟伴侶。

that gender equality is not a zero-sum game.

性別平等不是一個零和遊戲；

It's not a win-lose.

不是你輸我贏。

It is a win-win for everyone.

它對所有人而言，都是雙贏。

And what we also know

我們也知道的是，

is we cannot fully empower women and girls

除非我們讓所有男性都參與，

unless we engage boys and men.

否則很難真正達到男女平權。

We know this.

這我們都知道。

And my position is

所以我的立場是，

that men need the very things that women have identified

男人需要參與那些女人列為

that they need to live the lives they say they want to live

讓她們能過想過的生活所需做的事，

in order to live the lives that we say we want to live.

來讓我們能過自己想過的生活。

In 1915, on the eve of one of the great suffrage demonstrations

1915年，在一個 偉大的選舉權遊行示威前夕，

down Fifth Avenue in New York City,

在紐約市第五大道，

a writer in New York wrote an article in a magazine,

一位紐約的作者 在一本雜誌上寫了一篇文章，

and the title of the article was,

文章的題目是

"Feminism for Men."

《為男人好的女性主義》

And this was the first line of that article:

這是那篇文章的第一句話：

"Feminism will make it possible for the first time for men to be free."

「女性主義將是有史以來第一次， 讓男人的自由有可能實現。」

Thank you.

謝謝！

(Applause)

(掌聲)