Jared Diamond: How societies can grow old better

翻译人员: Yukun Chen 校对人员: Wei Wu

To give me an idea of how many of you here

为了让我知道这里有多少人

may find what I'm about to tell you

待会儿会觉得我告诉你的事情

of practical value,

有实用价值，

let me ask you please to raise your hands:

请符合条件的人把手举起来:

Who here is either over 65 years old

这里有谁已经超过65岁

or hopes to live past age 65

或者想要活到65岁以后

or has parents or grandparents who did live

或者有父母、祖父母的岁数

or have lived past 65,

达到或超过65岁，

raise your hands please. (Laughter)

请举手。（笑声）

Okay. You are the people to whom my talk

好。你们就是会发现我的演讲

will be of practical value. (Laughter)

有用的人。（笑声）

The rest of you

其他人，

won't find my talk personally relevant,

不会觉得我的演讲和你有切身的关系，

but I think that you will still find the subject

但我觉得你仍会发现这个主题

fascinating.

非常有趣。

I'm going to talk about growing older

我要谈一谈在传统的社会里

in traditional societies.

慢慢变老是什么样子。

This subject constitutes just one chapter

这一主题是我新书的

of my latest book, which compares

一章，这本书在比较

traditional, small, tribal societies

传统上基于部落的小社会，

with our large, modern societies,

与我们现在的庞大社会之间，

with respect to many topics

在许多事情上都有很大不同，

such as bringing up children,

例如后代的培养，

growing older, health, dealing with danger,

老年问题，健康问题、 危机处理，

settling disputes, religion

领土和宗教争端等，

and speaking more than one language.

现在社会很多人都能说一种以上语言。

Those tribal societies, which constituted

这中小部落社会组织形式

all human societies for most of human history,

是人类漫长历史上最主要的社会形式，

are far more diverse than are our modern,

远比我们现代的，近代的大社会

recent, big societies.

更多样化。

All big societies that have governments,

所有具有政府的，

and where most people are strangers to each other,

且大多数人互不认识的大社会，

are inevitably similar to each other

都不可避免地相互类似

and different from tribal societies.

并且与部落社会不同。

Tribes constitute thousands of natural experiments

部落的形成是大自然实验的结果

in how to run a human society.

成千上万次的实验形成了部落的多样性。

They constitute experiments from which we ourselves

在大自然的实验中， 部落形成的过程中

may be able to learn.

我们可以学到很多。

Tribal societies shouldn't be scorned

(我们）不应该认为部落社会

as primitive and miserable,

原始而悲惨的，并因此看不起它们

but also they shouldn't be romanticized

但也不应该觉得它们是

as happy and peaceful.

幸福与和平的，从而把其浪漫化。

When we learn of tribal practices,

当我们去了解部落的做法时，

some of them will horrify us,

有些做法会吓坏我们，

but there are other tribal practices which,

但也有其他部落的做法，

when we hear about them,

当我们听说时，

we may admire and envy

我们可能会觉得佩服和羡慕

and wonder whether we could adopt those practices

并思考，是否我们自己，

ourselves.

也可以采取这些做法。

Most old people in the U.S. end up living

生活在美国的大多数老人，最终

separately from their children

都与子女分开生活

and from most of their friends

他们年轻时就认识的朋友们

of their earlier years,

也会相互分开，

and often they live in separate retirements homes for the elderly,

他们很可能生活在单独为老人设立的养老院里，

whereas in traditional societies,

而在传统社会中，

older people instead live out their lives

年纪大的人和他们的子女，

among their children, their other relatives,

他们的其他亲戚，

and their lifelong friends.

以及他们认识了一辈子的朋友生活在一起。

Nevertheless, the treatment of the elderly

虽然，老年人的待遇

varies enormously among traditional societies,

在不同的传统社会间差别极大，

from much worse to much better

有比我们的现代社会糟糕很多的，

than in our modern societies.

也有比我们的现代社会好很多的。

At the worst extreme, many traditional societies

在最坏的极端，许多传统社会

get rid of their elderly

通过以下四种一种比一种残忍的方式

in one of four increasingly direct ways:

来处理部落中的老年人：

by neglecting their elderly

第一种做法是忽略他们

and not feeding or cleaning them until they die,

不给他们吃的， 不打理他们，任其自生自灭，

or by abandoning them when the group moves,

第二种做法是在整个群体迁移时，抛弃他们，

or by encouraging older people to commit suicide,

第三种做法是迫使老人自杀，

or by killing older people.

最后， 最残忍的， 杀死老人。

In which tribal societies do children

到底是什么样的部落社会，

abandon or kill their parents?

子女会抛弃或杀死他们的父母？

It happens mainly under two conditions.

主要在以下两个环境下会发生。

One is in nomadic, hunter-gather societies

一个情况是游牧部落，打猎和采摘为食的社会

that often shift camp

这些部落常常需要迁移，

and that are physically incapable

他们没有能力

of transporting old people who can't walk

带着无法自己迁移的老人，

when the able-bodied younger people already

四肢健全的年轻人

have to carry their young children

要携带年幼的子女

and all their physical possessions.

和其所有的物质财产。

The other condition is in societies

另一种是生活在极端恶劣

living in marginal or fluctuating environments,

或极端不稳定环境中的部落，

such as the Arctic or deserts,

比如北极或沙漠，

where there are periodic food shortages,

这些地方有周期性的粮食短缺，

and occasionally there just isn't enough food

并且时不时的会有饥荒，

to keep everyone alive.

粮食无法满足所有人。

Whatever food is available has to be reserved

这种情况下， 食物必须

for able-bodied adults and for children.

为健全的成年人和儿童保留。

To us Americans, it sounds horrible

对我们美国人来说，这听起来非常可怕，

to think of abandoning or killing

想想抛弃或杀死

your own sick wife or husband

你自己生病的妻子或丈夫

or elderly mother or father,

或年迈的母亲或父亲，

but what could those traditional societies

但是，那些传统社会还可能

do differently?

怎么样呢？

They face a cruel situation of no choice.

他们面对别无选择的残酷态势。

Their old people had to do it to their own parents,

他们的老人都不得不对自己的父母做这样的事情，

and the old people know

并且老人们知道

what now is going to happen to them.

现在什么会发生在他们身上。

At the opposite extreme

在对待老人的另一个极端

in treatment of the elderly, the happy extreme,

这个快乐的极端，

are the New Guinea farming societies

是在新几内亚的农耕社会

where I've been doing my fieldwork for the past 50 years,

——过去 50 多年来，我在那里做野外调查——

and most other sedentary traditional societies

还有大多数其他在世界各地

around the world.

定居的传统社会。

In those societies, older people are cared for.

在这些社会中，老年人受到照顾。

They are fed. They remain valuable.

他们被（子女）赡养。他们仍有价值。

And they continue to live in the same hut

而且他们继续住在同一屋檐下，

or else in a nearby hut near their children,

或是住在靠近他们子女，或其他亲属和好朋友住处

relatives and lifelong friends.

附近的小屋。

There are two main sets of reasons for this variation

在不同的社会中，有这样不同的

among societies in their treatment

对待老人的态度和方式，

of old people.

主要有两组原因。

The variation depends especially

这种不同尤其取决于

on the usefulness of old people

老人依然能够体现自己的价值

and on the society's values.

以及当地社会的价值观。

First, as regards usefulness,

第一点是关于老人的价值，

older people continue to perform useful services.

老人可继续提供有用的服务。

One use of older people in traditional societies

在传统社会中老人的一个用处

is that they often are still effective

是他们常常仍可以

at producing food.

生产食物。

Another traditional usefulness of older people

另一种老年人的传统用处，

is that they are capable of babysitting

是他们有能力帮忙照看

their grandchildren,

他们的孙辈，

thereby freeing up their own adult children,

从而让其成年子女，

the parents of those grandchildren,

那些孙子们的父母，

to go hunting and gathering food for the grandchildren.

去狩猎和采集食物给孙子们。

Still another traditional value of older people

还有另一个老年人的传统价值

is in making tools, weapons, baskets,

是在于制作工具、 武器、 篮子、

pots and textiles.

锅碗和纺织品。

In fact, they're usually the people who are best at it.

事实上，他们通常是擅长的人。

Older people usually are the leaders

老人通常是传统社会

of traditional societies,

的领导人，

and the people most knowledgeable about politics,

也是在政治、医学、 宗教、

medicine, religion, songs and dances.

歌曲和舞蹈方面最有知识的人。

Finally, older people in traditional societies

最后，在传统社会中的老年人

have a huge significance that would never occur

具有一个巨大的，且在我们的现代文明社会中

to us in our modern, literate societies,

永远不会想到的重要性，

where our sources of information are books

因为我们的信息来源是书

and the Internet.

和互联网。

In contrast, in traditional societies without writing,

相比之下，在没有文字书写的传统社会，

older people are the repositories of information.

老人是信息的存储库。

It's their knowledge that spells the difference

他们的知识是其整个社会

between survival and death for their whole society

在罕见事件引起的危机时

in a time of crisis caused by rare events

存亡的关键

for which only the oldest people alive

因为唯一活着的，最年长的老人

have had experience.

才会有经验。

Those, then, are the ways in which older people

那些就是老人

are useful in traditional societies.

在传统社会中有用的地方。

Their usefulness varies and contributes

他们的用处会不同，并决定了

to variation in the society's treatment

社会对待老人

of the elderly.

态度的不同。

The other set of reasons for variation

另一组（不同社会）对待老人

in the treatment of the elderly is

有差异的原因是

the society's cultural values.

社会的文化价值观。

For example, there's particular emphasis

例如，对在东亚地区，

on respect for the elderly in East Asia,

（其文化）特别强调对老人的尊重，

associated with Confucius' doctrine

这与孔子的孝道學說有关

of filial piety, which means obedience,

也即是服从，

respect and support for elderly parents.

尊重并支持年迈的父母。

Cultural values that emphasize respect for older people

强调尊重老年人的文化价值观

contrast with the low status of the elderly

与在美国，老人的地位低微

in the U.S.

形成了鲜明对比。

Older Americans are at a big disadvantage

美国老年人在工作申请中

in job applications.

处于很大的劣势。

They're at a big disadvantage in hospitals.

他们在医院也处于很大的劣势。

Our hospitals have an explicit policy

我们的医院有明确的政策

called age-based allocation of healthcare resources.

称为“基于年龄分配医疗资源”。

That sinister expression means that

这种政策的表述听起来充满恶意：

if hospital resources are limited,

如果医院资源是有限的，

for example if only one donor heart

例如，如果只有一个捐助者的心脏

becomes available for transplant,

可供移植，

or if a surgeon has time to operate

或者，如果一个外科医生

on only a certain number of patients,

在一定时间中只能为少数几个患者做手术，

American hospitals have an explicit policy

美国的医院有明确的政策，

of giving preference to younger patients

（这些资源）要优先给年轻的患者

over older patients

而不是老年患者，

on the grounds that younger patients are considered

理由是年轻患者被认为

more valuable to society

对社会更有价值

because they have more years of life ahead of them,

因为他们还有更多年的生活在等待他们，

even though the younger patients have fewer years

即使较年轻的患者有较少的

of valuable life experience behind them.

宝贵生活经验。

There are several reasons for this low status

美国的老人地位如此低

of the elderly in the U.S.

有几个原因。

One is our Protestant work ethic

一是我们新教的工作伦理

which places high value on work,

这个伦理给予“工作”很大的价值，

so older people who are no longer working

所以不再能工作的老年人

aren't respected.

不被尊重。

Another reason is our American emphasis

另一个原因是我们美国人强调

on the virtues of self-reliance and independence,

自主和独立的美德

so we instinctively look down on older people

所以我们本能地看不起

who are no longer self-reliant and independent.

不再自力更生而独立的老年人。

Still a third reason is our American cult of youth,

第三个原因是我们美国式的，对年轻的崇拜，

which shows up even in our advertisements.

甚至在我们的广告中就显示了这点。

Ads for Coca-Cola and beer always depict

可口可乐和啤酒的广告总是描绘

smiling young people,

微笑着的年轻人，

even though old as well as young people

即使老人象年轻人一样

buy and drink Coca-Cola and beer.

会去买可口可乐和啤酒。

Just think, what's the last time you saw

想一想，你最后一次看到

a Coke or beer ad depicting smiling people

可乐或者啤酒的广告描绘微笑着的

85 years old? Never.

85 岁老人是什么时候？从来没有。

Instead, the only American ads

相反，唯一以白发老人

featuring white-haired old people

为主角的美国广告

are ads for retirement homes and pension planning.

是眼泪院和养老计划的广告。

Well, what has changed in the status

今天老人的地位

of the elderly today

与他们在传统社会中的地位

compared to their status in traditional societies?

相比起来有什么变化？

There have been a few changes for the better

有一些好的变化

and more changes for the worse.

更多的方面变得更糟糕了。

Big changes for the better

好的变化中，大的方面

include the fact that today we enjoy

包括今天我们享受

much longer lives,

更长的生命这一事实，

much better health in our old age,

我们比过去的老年人更健康，

and much better recreational opportunities.

和有更好地娱乐的机会。

Another change for the better is that we now have

另一个更好的变化是，我们现在有

specialized retirement facilities

专门的退休设施

and programs to take care of old people.

和政策来照顾老人们。

Changes for the worse begin with the cruel reality

更糟的变化开始于

that we now have

我们现在，比以往任何时候

more old people and fewer young people

都有更多的老人和更少的年轻人

than at any time in the past.

这一残酷现实。

That means that all those old people

这意味着，那些老人

are more of a burden on the few young people,

对这些较少的年轻来说是个负担，

and that each old person has less individual value.

并且每个老人的个体价值也就更少。

Another big change for the worse in the status of the elderly

另一个老年人地位恶化的大变化是

is the breaking of social ties with age,

随着年龄的增长，社会纽带的断裂，

because older people, their children,

因为老人，他们的孩子，

and their friends,

和他们的朋友，

all move and scatter independently of each other

在他们的生命过程中多次搬家

many times during their lives.

并彼此独立地四散各处。

We Americans move on the average

我们美国人平均

every five years.

每五年就搬家一次。

Hence our older people are likely

因此我们的老人很有可能

to end up living distant from their children

最终生活在远离他们的孩子

and the friends of their youth.

和他们青年时期朋友的地方。

Yet another change for the worse in the status of the elderly

另一个老年人地位恶化的变化是

is formal retirement from the workforce,

从劳动力中正式退休，

carrying with it a loss of work friendships

同时失去在工作中建立的友谊

and a loss of the self-esteem associated with work.

以及从工作而来的自尊。

Perhaps the biggest change for the worse

或许，最大的（老人地位）恶化的改变是

is that our elderly are objectively

我们的老人都客观地

less useful than in traditional societies.

相比在传统社会中没那么有用了。

Widespread literacy means that they are no longer

文化普及意味着他们不再

useful as repositories of knowledge.

是有用的知识宝库。

When we want some information,

当我们想要某些信息时，

we look it up in a book or we Google it

我们从书里面查，或是上网搜索

instead of finding some old person to ask.

而不是询问老人。

The slow pace of technological change

在传统社会中，

in traditional societies

技术变革的缓慢速度

means that what someone learns there as a child

意味着在孩童时代学习的东西

is still useful when that person is old,

在老年时仍然有用

but the rapid pace of technological change today

而今天技术的快速改变

means that what we learn as children

意味着我们在孩童时代学习的东西

is no longer useful 60 years later.

60 年后已经不再有用。

And conversely, we older people are not fluent

反过来，我们老人对于

in the technologies essential for surviving

现代社会中生存必需的技术

in modern society.

并不擅长。

For example, as a 15-year-old,

例如，做为 一个15 岁的孩子，

I was considered outstandingly good at multiplying numbers

别人觉得我非常擅长乘法

because I had memorized the multiplication tables

因为我记得乘法表，

and I know how to use logarithms

知道如何使用对数，

and I'm quick at manipulating a slide rule.

并且可以快速地操作计算尺。

Today, though, those skills are utterly useless

然而，今天，这些技能基本完全无用

because any idiot

因为任何一个白痴

can now multiply eight-digit numbers

也可以将八位数的数字

accurately and instantly with a pocket calculator.

准确快速地用一个袖珍计算器相乘。

Conversely, I at age 75

相反地，我在75 岁时

am incompetent at skills

无法驾驭日常生活中

essential for everyday life.

所必须的技能。

My family's first TV set in 1948

我家1948 年的第一台电视

had only three knobs that I quickly mastered:

只有三个旋钮，我很快就掌握了要如何使用：

an on-off switch, a volume knob,

一个电源开关，一个音量旋钮

and a channel selector knob.

和一个频道选择钮。

Today, just to watch a program

今天，为了要在我自家的

on the TV set in my own house,

电视上看个节目，

I have to operate a 41-button TV remote

我必须要操作一个 41钮的电视遥控器，

that utterly defeats me.

这完全难倒了我。

I have to telephone my 25-year-old sons

我只好打电话给我 25 岁的儿子们

and ask them to talk me through it

让他们在电话里一步一步地告诉我

while I try to push those wretched 41 buttons.

怎么操作那些可悲的 41个按钮。

What can we do to improve the lives of the elderly

我们可以做些什么来改善在美国的老人的生活

in the U.S., and to make better use of their value?

和更好地利用他们的价值吗？

That's a huge problem.

这是一个巨大的问题。

In my remaining four minutes today,

在我今天剩下的四分钟内，

I can offer just a few suggestions.

我仅能提供几个建议。

One value of older people is that they are

老人的一个价值是他们

increasingly useful as grandparents

作为祖父母，

for offering high-quality childcare

在为其孙辈提供高品质的儿童照顾上

to their grandchildren, if they choose to do it,

越来越有用，如果他们选择做这件事，

as more young women enter the workforce

因为越来越多的年轻妇女参与劳动

and as fewer young parents of either gender

以及越来越少的年轻父母中任一一方

stay home as full-time caretakers of their children.

留在家里全职照顾他们的孩子。

Compared to the usual alternatives

相比于常见的

of paid babysitters and day care centers,

带薪保姆和托儿所这些选择，

grandparents offer superior, motivated,

祖父母提供更优越，更有动力的，

experienced child care.

经验丰富的儿童照顾。

They've already gained experience from raising their own children.

他们已经从养育自己的孩子中取得了经验。

They usually love their grandchildren,

他们通常爱他们的孙辈，

and are eager to spend time with them.

并渴望能花时间和他们在一起。

Unlike other caregivers,

与其他护理人员不同，

grandparents don't quit their job

爷爷奶奶不会因为

because they found another job with higher pay

找到了另一份收入更高的

looking after another baby.

照顾另一个孩子的工作而辞职。

A second value of older people is paradoxically

老年人的第二个价值，矛盾的是

related to their loss of value

与其因世界状况和技术的变化

as a result of changing world conditions and technology.

造成的价值损失有关。

At the same time, older people have gained

与此同时，老人们获得了

in value today precisely because

今天的价值恰恰是因为

of their unique experience of living conditions

他们在那些如今已经罕见的生活状况上

that have now become rare

的独特经验

because of rapid change, but that could come back.

这些情况由于快速的变化而变得罕见，但有可能会再出现。

For example, only Americans now in their 70s

例如，只有70多岁或更老的美国人

or older today can remember

今天会记得

the experience of living through a great depression,

在大萧条中存活的经验，

the experience of living through a world war,

在世界大战中存活的经验，

and agonizing whether or not

和烦恼到底是

dropping atomic bombs would be more horrible

扔原子炸弹的后果比较严重

than the likely consequences of not dropping atomic bombs.

还是不扔原子弹可能出现的后果比较严重。

Most of our current voters and politicians

大多数我们当前的选民和政治家

have no personal experience of any of those things,

都没有亲身经历过这些事情，

but millions of older Americans do.

但数以百万计的美国老年人经历过。

Unfortunately, all of those terrible situations

不幸的是，所有这些可怕的情况

could come back.

都有可能再发生。

Even if they don't come back,

即使它们不再发生，

we have to be able to plan for them

我们必须能够为此做好准备

on the basis of the experience of what they were like.

基于经验所知的状况。

Older people have that experience.

老人们有这个经验。

Younger people don't.

但年轻人没有。

The remaining value of older people

我将要提到的老人的其他价值

that I'll mention involves recognizing that

是关于（我们需要）认识到

while there are many things that older people

虽然有很多事情，老人

can no longer do,

不能再做了，

there are other things that they can do

但也有其他的事情，他们仍可以做

better than younger people.

得比年轻人更好。

A challenge for society is to make use of those things

社会面临的一个挑战就是要利用那些

that older people are better at doing.

老人能做得更好事情。

Some abilities, of course, decrease with age.

当然，一些能力会随着年龄的增长而变差。

Those include abilities at tasks

这些包括完成

requiring physical strength and stamina,

需要体力和耐力，

ambition, and the power of novel reasoning

野心及在特定情况下有创意的推理力

in a circumscribed situation,

的这类任务的能力，

such as figuring out the structure of DNA,

如想出DNA的结构，

best left to scientists under the age of 30.

最好还是留给30岁以下的科学家去做。

Conversely, valuable attributes

相反的，随着年龄的增加

that increase with age include experience,

会更有价值的，包括经验，

understanding of people and human relationships,

了解人和人之间的关系，

ability to help other people

不被自我意识影响地

without your own ego getting in the way,

去帮助其他人，

and interdisciplinary thinking about large databases,

以及跨学科地思考大型数据库的能力，

such as economics and comparative history,

如经济学和比较历史等事情，

best left to scholars over the age of 60.

最好留给年龄超过 60 岁的学者来做。

Hence older people are much better than younger people

因此，老年人比年轻人

at supervising, administering, advising,

在监督、 管理、 咨询、

strategizing, teaching, synthesizing,

战略规划、 教学、综合，

and devising long-term plans.

及制定长期计划上更擅长。

I've seen this value of older people

我在老年人身上看到这个价值

with so many of my friends in their 60s,

包括我那些60多岁，

70s, 80s and 90s,

70多岁，80多岁和90多岁的朋友们，

who are still active as investment managers,

这些人依然是活跃的投资管理人，

farmers, lawyers and doctors.

农民、 律师和医生。

In short, many traditional societies

总之，许多传统社会

make better use of their elderly

比我们现代化大社会，

and give their elderly more satisfying lives

更好地利用他们的老年人

than we do in modern, big societies.

也给老人更满足的生活。

Paradoxically nowadays,

矛盾的是，现在，

when we have more elderly people than ever before,

当我们比以往任何时候，

living healthier lives and with better medical care

有更多的老年人健康地生活

than ever before,

和有更好的医疗照顾，

old age is in some respects more miserable

变老在某些方面反而

than ever before.

比以往任何时候更惨。

The lives of the elderly are widely recognized

老人生活状态被公认

as constituting a disaster area

构成了现代美国社会

of modern American society.

的一个灾难性的部分。

We can surely do better by learning

我们当然可以做得更好，

from the lives of the elderly

通过学习在传统的社会中

in traditional societies.

老人的生活。

But what's true of the lives of the elderly

但，对传统社会

in traditional societies

老人生活来说是对的事情，

is true of many other features

对许多其他

of traditional societies as well.

传统社会的特点来说也是对的。

Of course, I'm not advocating that we all give up

当然，我不主张我们都放弃

agriculture and metal tools

农业和金属工具

and return to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

并返回狩猎采集的生活方式。

There are many obvious respects

在许多明显的方面

in which our lives today are far happier

我们今天的生活远比

than those in small, traditional societies.

在那些小的、 传统的社会更快乐。

To mention just a few examples,

举几个例子，

our lives are longer, materially much richer,

比在传统社会中人的生活。

and less plagued by violence

我们活得更久，物质更丰富，

than are the lives of people in traditional societies.

也少受暴力迫害。

But there are also things to be admired

但传统社会中的人们

about people in traditional societies,

的一些事情也值得敬佩，

and perhaps to be learned from them.

或许应该向他们学习。

Their lives are usually socially much richer

他们的生活通常在社交上

than our lives,

比我们的生活更丰富

although materially poorer.

虽然物质上比较贫乏。

Their children are more self-confident,

他们的孩子们更自信

more independent, and more socially skilled

更独立，和在社会上更熟练，

than are our children.

比起我们的孩子。

They think more realistically about dangers than we do.

他们比我们更实际地对待危险。

They almost never die of diabetes, heart disease,

他们几乎从来不会死于糖尿病、 心脏病、

stroke, and the other noncommunicable diseases

中风和其他非传染性疾病，

that will be the causes of death of almost

而这些将会是我们今天

all of us in this room today.

在这里的所有人的死因。

Features of the modern lifestyle predispose us to those diseases,

现代生活方式的特点让我们更容易患上这些疾病，

and features of the traditional lifestyle

而传统生活方式的特点

protect us against them.

保护我们免受这些疾病的伤害。

Those are just some examples of what we can learn

这些只是几个例子来说明我们能

from traditional societies.

从传统社会中学习什么。

I hope that you will find it as fascinating

我希望你会发现，

to read about traditional societies

了解传统社会

as I found it to live in those societies.

和我觉得在这些社会中生活一样引人入胜。

Thank you.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）