Lessons from death row inmates | David R. Dow

2,771,213 views ・ 2012-06-18

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00:00
Translator: Jenny Zurawell Reviewer: Thu-Huong Ha
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翻译人员: Shang Sinian 校对人员: Yuguo Zhang
00:16
Two weeks ago,
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两周前,
00:17
I was sitting at the kitchen table with my wife Katya,
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我和我的妻子,卡特亚,
坐在餐桌旁,
00:23
and we were talking about what I was going to talk about today.
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我们两人当时谈论着我今天将要讨论的事情。
00:28
We have an 11-year-old son; his name is Lincoln.
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我们有个11岁大的儿子;叫林肯。他当时也坐在同一张餐桌旁
00:30
He was sitting at the same table, doing his math homework.
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做他的数学作业。
00:35
And during a pause in my conversation with Katya,
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我和卡特亚的谈话暂停了一下,
00:39
I looked over at Lincoln
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我看着林肯
00:40
and I was suddenly thunderstruck
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然后突然被我想起来的一位客户的经历所
00:44
by a recollection of a client of mine.
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震惊了。
00:48
My client was a guy named Will.
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我的客户是一个叫威尔的男孩。
00:51
He was from North Texas.
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他来自北德克萨斯。
他的父亲在他母亲怀着他的时候就离开了他们,所以
00:54
He never knew his father very well,
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00:55
because his father left his mom while she was pregnant with him.
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从没见过他的父亲。
01:01
And so, he was destined to be raised by a single mom,
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所以,命中注定他成长在一个单亲妈妈的家庭,
01:05
which might have been all right
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也许他可以成长的很好
01:07
except that this particular single mom was a paranoid schizophrenic,
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只是他的特殊的单身母亲
有偏执型精神分裂症,
01:13
and when Will was five years old,
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更糟糕的是她曾经想用一把屠刀杀死只有5岁的威尔。
01:16
she tried to kill him with a butcher knife.
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她被
01:19
She was taken away by authorities and placed in a psychiatric hospital,
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警察带走后并被送进了精神病院,
01:24
and so for the next several years Will lived with his older brother,
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那之后的几年威尔和他的哥哥生活在一起直到
01:27
until he committed suicide by shooting himself through the heart.
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他的哥哥将一颗子弹送进了自己的心脏。
那之后
01:32
And after that Will bounced around from one family member to another,
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威尔就在亲戚家中轮流居住,
01:37
until, by the time he was nine years old, he was essentially living on his own.
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直到,他九岁的时候,他基本上只是自己独自生活了。
01:42
That morning that I was sitting with Katya and Lincoln,
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那天早上我,卡特亚和林肯坐在一起,我看着我的儿子,
01:44
I looked at my son, and I realized that when my client, Will, was his age,
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我意识到当我的客户,威尔,
和我儿子一样大的时候,
01:52
he'd been living by himself for two years.
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他已经独自生活了两年了。
01:56
Will eventually joined a gang
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威尔最后加入了黑手党
01:59
and committed a number of very serious crimes,
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并严重触犯了
一系列法律,
02:03
including, most seriously of all,
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包括,其中最严重,
一场可怕,悲剧性的谋杀。
02:07
a horrible, tragic murder.
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威尔最后被判处死刑
02:10
And Will was ultimately executed as punishment for that crime.
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作为犯罪的惩罚。
但是今天我不打算
02:17
But I don't want to talk today about the morality of capital punishment.
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谈论
关于死刑的道德问题。我坚定的认为
02:23
I certainly think that my client shouldn't have been executed,
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我的客户不应该被判死刑,但是我今天想从一个
02:27
but what I would like to do today instead
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02:30
is talk about the death penalty in a way I've never done before,
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以前没有讨论过的角度去
谈一谈死刑,
02:35
in a way that is entirely noncontroversial.
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一个
完全无可争议的角度。
我认为这是可能的,
02:40
I think that's possible,
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02:42
because there is a corner of the death penalty debate --
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因为总有一个关于死刑争议
的角落--
02:46
maybe the most important corner --
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也许是最重要的角落--
02:49
where everybody agrees,
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所有人都可以认同,
02:51
where the most ardent death penalty supporters
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其中死刑最忠实的拥护者
02:56
and the most vociferous abolitionists are on exactly the same page.
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和坚持废除死刑的人
都认同的事。
03:02
That's the corner I want to explore.
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那就是我想探索的角落。
03:06
Before I do that, though, I want to spend a couple of minutes
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在这之前,可是,我想几分钟时间向你们说明一下
03:09
telling you how a death penalty case unfolds,
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死刑案例是如何开展的,
03:13
and then I want to tell you two lessons
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之后我想再告诉你们过去的20年中
03:15
that I have learned over the last 20 years as a death penalty lawyer
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作为一个死刑律师我学到的两件事,
03:20
from watching well more than a hundred cases unfold in this way.
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从过去以这样的形式已经开展的上百例案件。
03:25
You can think of a death penalty case as a story that has four chapters.
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您可以把死刑案件看做的一个
有四个章节的故事。
03:31
The first chapter of every case is exactly the same, and it is tragic.
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每宗个案的第一章是完全相同的,
是个悲剧。
03:36
It begins with the murder of an innocent human being,
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它始于谋杀
无辜的人,
03:40
and it's followed by a trial
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接下来是审判
03:41
where the murderer is convicted and sent to death row,
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法庭上杀人凶手被定罪为死囚,
03:44
and that death sentence is ultimately upheld by the state appellate court.
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最终,
被州诉讼法院判为死刑。
第二章由复杂的法律程序组成,称为
03:49
The second chapter consists of a complicated legal proceeding
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03:52
known as a state habeas corpus appeal.
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州人身保护诉讼令。
03:56
The third chapter is an even more complicated legal proceeding
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第三章的法律程序更为复杂,称为
03:59
known as a federal habeas corpus proceeding.
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联邦人身保护令程序。
04:01
And the fourth chapter is one where a variety of things can happen.
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第四章中
各种各样的事情都可能发生。律师们可能会提出申请,
04:05
The lawyers might file a clemency petition,
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04:08
they might initiate even more complex litigation,
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他们可能会引发更多复杂的诉讼,
04:10
or they might not do anything at all.
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或者,他们可能什么都不做。
04:13
But that fourth chapter always ends with an execution.
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但这四章总是以
执行死刑结束。
当我 20 多年前开始为死囚牢房的囚犯做代表的时候,
04:18
When I started representing death row inmates more than 20 years ago,
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04:22
people on death row did not have a right to a lawyer
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死囚并没有使用律师的权利,在这个故事的第二章
04:25
in either the second or the fourth chapter of this story.
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或第四章。
04:28
They were on their own.
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他们得靠自己。
04:30
In fact, it wasn't until the late 1980s
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事实上,直到20世纪80年代他们才获得在
04:32
that they acquired a right to a lawyer during the third chapter of the story.
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这个故事的第三章期间
使用律师的权利。
04:37
So what all of these death row inmates had to do was rely on volunteer lawyers
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所以所有这些死囚犯人不得不
依靠志愿律师
04:43
to handle their legal proceedings.
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来处理他们的法律诉讼。
04:45
The problem is that there were way more guys on death row
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问题是死囚的数量比起
对死囚案件有兴趣以及具有相关技能的律师更多。
04:49
than there were lawyers
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04:50
who had both the interest and the expertise to work on these cases.
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04:54
And so inevitably,
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所以不可避免的是,
04:55
lawyers drifted to cases that were already in chapter four --
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律师漂流到了已经在第四章的案件 — —
04:59
that makes sense, of course.
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这的确有道理,当然。这些案件都是最迫切的 ;
05:01
Those are the cases that are most urgent;
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这些家伙都是最接近于执行死刑的人。
05:03
those are the guys who are closest to being executed.
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05:05
Some of these lawyers were successful;
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这些律师有的成功的为他们的客户争取到了新的审判。
05:07
they managed to get new trials for their clients.
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05:09
Others of them managed to extend the lives of their clients,
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其他的设法延长了他们的客户生命,有时
05:12
sometimes by years, sometimes by months.
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是几年,有时是几个月。
05:15
But the one thing that didn't happen
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但有一件事没有发生,
在德克萨斯州,每年处决的人数从没有
05:18
was that there was never a serious and sustained decline
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05:21
in the number of annual executions in Texas.
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真正意义的持续下降。
05:24
In fact, as you can see from this graph,
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实际上,正如您看到的这张图表,从20世纪90年代中期到晚期,
05:26
from the time that the Texas execution apparatus got efficient
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德克萨斯州执行机构有了执行能力,
05:30
in the mid- to late 1990s,
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05:32
there have only been a couple of years
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只有过了几年每年处决的人数在下降
05:34
where the number of annual executions dipped below 20.
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到20个案例以下。
05:38
In a typical year in Texas,
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德克萨斯州一年中,
05:40
we're averaging about two people a month.
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我们现在平均大约
每个月有两人被执行。
05:44
In some years in Texas, we've executed close to 40 people,
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在德克萨斯州的一些年里,我们曾经执行过近 40 人,并且这一数字
05:48
and this number has never significantly declined over the last 15 years.
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在过去的 15 年中从来没有显著下降过。
05:53
And yet, at the same time that we continue to execute
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然而,同时,我们继续执行
05:56
about the same number of people every year,
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几乎每年相同数量的人数,
05:59
the number of people who we're sentencing to death on an annual basis
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我们正在宣判死刑的人数
以年为单位
06:02
has dropped rather steeply.
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在急剧下降。
06:05
So we have this paradox,
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所以我们得出这种自相矛盾的结论,
就是每年处决的人数保持很高
06:07
which is that the number of annual executions has remained high
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06:11
but the number of new death sentences has gone down.
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但新的死刑判决的数目下降了。
06:15
Why is that?
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这是为什么?
06:16
It can't be attributed to a decline in the murder rate,
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它不能归咎于谋杀数量的下降,
06:19
because the murder rate has not declined nearly so steeply
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因为谋杀数量没有下降
近那么快,图上的红线已经减少了。
06:23
as the red line on that graph has gone down.
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06:26
What has happened instead
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取而代之,
06:28
is that juries have started to sentence more and more people to prison
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陪审团着手把更多的人判入监狱
终生监禁他们完全没有释放的机会,
06:33
for the rest of their lives without the possibility of parole,
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06:36
rather than sending them to the execution chamber.
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而不是将它们发送到死刑室。
为什么?
06:40
Why has that happened?
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06:41
It hasn't happened because of a dissolution
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这不是因民意支持取消
06:44
of popular support for the death penalty.
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死刑。死刑反对者获得了极大的安慰是因为
06:47
Death penalty opponents take great solace in the fact
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在德克萨斯州的死刑支持率正处于历史低点。
06:50
that death penalty support in Texas is at an all-time low.
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06:54
Do you know what all-time low in Texas means?
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你知道在德克萨斯州创历史新低意味着什么吗?
06:56
It means that it's in the low 60 percent.
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这意味着它是低于60%。
06:58
Now, that's really good compared to the mid-1980s,
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与之相比,一个很好的例子是80年代中期,当时
07:01
when it was in excess of 80 percent,
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这个数字是超过 80%,
07:04
but we can't explain the decline in death sentences
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但我们不能简单的解释死刑判决的减少是因为人们对生命的关注
07:07
and the affinity for life without the possibility of parole
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而把死刑支持者言论减少的可能性排除在外。
07:10
by an erosion of support for the death penalty,
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07:12
because people still support the death penalty.
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,因为有人仍支持死刑。
07:15
What's happened to cause this phenomenon?
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发生了什么,导致这种现象呢?
07:18
What's happened is that lawyers who represent death row inmates
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说发生的事是
这些代表死囚的律师们
已经开始将他们的注意力向更早
07:23
have shifted their focus to earlier and earlier chapters
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死刑故事的章节。
07:26
of the death penalty story.
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07:28
So 25 years ago, they focused on chapter four.
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所以 25 年前,他们关注第四章。
07:32
And they went from chapter four 25 years ago
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25年前,80年代后期,他们从
07:34
to chapter three in the late 1980s.
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第四章转移到了第三章。
07:37
And they went from chapter three in the late 1980s
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他们从八十年代后期第 3 章中进入到了
07:40
to chapter two in the mid-1990s.
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上世纪 90 年代中期的了第两章。从90年代中期到后期,
07:42
And beginning in the mid- to late 1990s,
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07:44
they began to focus on chapter one of the story.
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他们开始专注于故事的第一章。
07:47
Now, you might think that this decline in death sentences
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现在,你也许会认为死刑判决的减少和上升的
07:50
and the increase in the number of life sentences
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终身监禁刑罚的人数是一件好事或坏事。
07:52
is a good thing or a bad thing.
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07:54
I don't want to have a conversation about that today.
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我今天不想讨论。
07:56
All that I want to tell you is that the reason that this has happened
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所有的我想要告诉是发生的理由
08:00
is because death penalty lawyers have understood
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正是因为死刑律师能看明白
08:03
that the earlier you intervene in a case,
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在你的案例中越早干预,
08:05
the greater the likelihood that you're going to save your client's life.
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你越有希望保护你的客户的生命。
08:09
That's the first thing I've learned.
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这是我所学到的第一件事。
08:11
Here's the second thing I learned:
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我学到了第二件事:
08:13
My client Will was not the exception to the rule;
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我的客户威尔
并不是个规则的例外;
08:18
he was the rule.
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他就是规则。
08:21
I sometimes say, if you tell me the name of a death row inmate --
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我有时会说,如果你告诉我一个死囚犯人的名字— —
08:25
doesn't matter what state he's in,
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不管他现在是什么状态也不管我之前是否见过他 — —
08:26
doesn't matter if I've ever met him before --
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08:28
I'll write his biography for you.
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我可以为你写出他的自传。
08:31
And eight out of 10 times,
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80%的情况下,
08:33
the details of that biography will be more or less accurate.
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该传记的细节
或多或少是准确的。
08:38
And the reason for that is that 80 percent of the people on death row
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原因是 80%的死囚
08:42
are people who came from the same sort of dysfunctional family that Will did.
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都来自同一种功能失调的家庭。
08:46
Eighty percent of the people on death row
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80%的死囚
08:48
are people who had exposure to the juvenile justice system.
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都接触过
少年司法制度系统。
08:53
That's the second lesson that I've learned.
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这就是我学会的
第二个教训。
08:56
Now we're right on the cusp of that corner
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现在我们就在那个角落的尖点
09:00
where everybody's going to agree.
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那里每个人都认同。
09:03
People in this room might disagree
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在这个房间里的人可能不同意
09:05
about whether Will should have been executed,
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关于威尔是否应该被执行死刑,
09:07
but I think everybody would agree
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但我想大家都会同意
09:10
that the best possible version of his story
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他的故事最好的可能版本
09:13
would be a story where no murder ever occurs.
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是一个谋杀不曾出现的
故事。
09:19
How do we do that?
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我们如何做哪?
09:21
When our son Lincoln was working on that math problem two weeks ago,
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两周前,当我们的儿子林肯正在研究这一数学问题
09:26
it was a big, gnarly problem.
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的时候,是一个很麻烦的问题。
09:28
And he was learning how, when you have a big old gnarly problem,
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他学习如何(解决问题),当你有一个麻烦的问题,
09:32
sometimes the solution is to slice it into smaller problems.
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有时解决方案是把它分成较小的问题。
09:36
That's what we do for most problems --
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这是我们做大多数问题--数学和物理,即使社会政策-
09:38
in math, in physics, even in social policy --
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09:40
we slice them into smaller, more manageable problems.
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我们把它们分割为更小、 更易于管理的问题。
09:43
But every once in a while, as Dwight Eisenhower said,
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但每隔一段时间,
正如德怀特 · 艾森豪威尔说,
09:47
the way you solve a problem is to make it bigger.
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解决问题的方法
是要使它变得更大。
我们解决这个问题的方法
09:52
The way we solve this problem
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09:55
is to make the issue of the death penalty bigger.
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是要使死刑的问题更大。
09:59
We have to say, all right.
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我们不得不说,好吧。
10:01
We have these four chapters of a death penalty story,
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我们有这四章
死刑的故事,
10:06
but what happens before that story begins?
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但是故事开始之前
会发生什么?
10:10
How can we intervene in the life of a murderer
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我们如何可以凶手犯罪之前干预
10:14
before he's a murderer?
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他的生活?
10:17
What options do we have to nudge that person off of the path
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我们有哪些选择
改变谋杀犯的
人生轨迹
这会导致一个结果,所有人— —
10:23
that is going to lead to a result that everybody --
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10:26
death penalty supporters and death penalty opponents --
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死刑的支持者和反对者 — —
10:29
still think is a bad result:
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仍然认为
是一个糟糕的结果:
10:32
the murder of an innocent human being?
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一个无辜的人被杀害吗?
10:37
You know, sometimes people say that something isn't rocket science.
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你知道,有时候人们会说
有一些事情
不是火箭科学。
10:43
And by that, what they mean is rocket science is really complicated
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是,他们的意思是火箭科学确实很复杂
10:46
and this problem that we're talking about now is really simple.
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而这个问题,我们正在谈论其实是真的非常简单。
10:49
Well that's rocket science;
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嗯,这是火箭科学 ;
10:51
that's the mathematical expression for the thrust created by a rocket.
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这就是数学方程式
为一枚火箭创建的推力。
10:57
What we're talking about today is just as complicated.
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我们今天讨论的
事很复杂。
11:01
What we're talking about today is also rocket science.
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我们今天在讨论的也是
火箭科学。
11:07
My client Will and 80 percent of the people on death row
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我的客户威尔
和 80%的死囚
11:12
had five chapters in their lives
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在他们的生活中有五个章节
11:15
that came before the four chapters of the death penalty story.
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这都在
死刑故事的四个章节之前。
我认为这些五个章节的干预点,
11:19
I think of these five chapters as points of intervention,
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11:22
places in their lives
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在他们的生活中当我们的社会
11:24
when our society could've intervened in their lives
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可以介入他们的生活并改变他们正在走向一个结局,那个我们所有人
11:28
and nudged them off of the path that they were on
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11:31
that created a consequence that we all --
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— — 死刑的支持者或死刑
11:33
death penalty supporters or death penalty opponents --
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的反对者 — —
11:36
say was a bad result.
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认为是很差的结局。
11:39
Now, during each of these five chapters:
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现在,这五个章节的每个章节:
11:41
when his mother was pregnant with him;
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当他的母亲怀孕;
11:43
in his early childhood years;
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在他早期的童年 ;
11:45
when he was in elementary school;
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当他上小学 ;
11:47
when he was in middle school and then high school;
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当他上中学和高中 ;
11:49
and when he was in the juvenile justice system --
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当他在少年司法系统 — — 期间的每个章节,
11:52
during each of those five chapters,
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11:53
there were a wide variety of things that society could have done.
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有各种各样社会能做的事情。
11:56
In fact, if we just imagine
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事实上,如果我们只是想象
11:58
that there are five different modes of intervention,
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有五种不同模式的干预,社会可以介入的方式
12:01
the way that society could intervene in each of those five chapters,
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五个章节的每一章,
12:05
and we could mix and match them any way we want,
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我们可以混合匹配成任何我们想要的方式,
12:07
there are 3,000 -- more than 3,000 -- possible strategies
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有 3,000 — — 超过 3,000 — — 可能行性措施
12:11
that we could embrace
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我们可以帮助,像威尔一样的孩子
12:13
in order to nudge kids like Will off of the path that they're on.
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改变他们的人生之路。
12:18
So I'm not standing here today with the solution.
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所以我今天不是站在这里
提出解决方案。
12:22
But the fact that we still have a lot to learn,
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但事实是我们仍有很多要学,
12:26
that doesn't mean that we don't know a lot already.
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这并不意味着我们一无所知。
12:30
We know from experience in other states
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我们从其他州的经验知道
12:33
that there are a wide variety of modes of intervention
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有多种方式干预
12:36
that we could be using in Texas,
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那我们可以用在得克萨斯州,并在每个其他州都不使用它们,
12:38
and in every other state that isn't using them,
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12:41
in order to prevent a consequence that we all agree is bad.
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为了防止我们都共同认为是不好的后果。
12:45
I'll just mention a few.
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我得提一下几个。
12:48
I won't talk today about reforming the legal system.
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我今天不会讨论关于司法制度改革。
12:52
That's probably a topic
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这可能是一个最好的预留给满屋子的律师和法官的话题。
12:53
that is best reserved for a room full of lawyers and judges.
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12:56
Instead, let me talk about a couple of modes of intervention
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相反,让我谈一谈几个的干预模式
13:00
that we can all help accomplish,
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我们可以所有帮助完成,
13:03
because they are modes of intervention that will come about
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因为它们是将会出现的干预方式
13:05
when legislators and policymakers, when taxpayers and citizens,
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当立法会议员和政策制定者,当纳税人和公民,
13:09
agree that that's what we ought to be doing
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一致认为这是我们应该做什么
13:12
and that's how we ought to be spending our money.
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而这是我们应该如何花自己的钱。
13:14
We could be providing early childhood care
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我们可以提供早期儿童护理
帮助经济处于弱势和陷入其他困境的孩子们,
13:17
for economically disadvantaged and otherwise troubled kids,
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13:22
and we could be doing it for free.
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并且是免费的。
13:25
And we could be nudging kids like Will off of the path that we're on.
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这样我们就可以改变像威尔这样的孩子们的命运。
13:29
There are other states that do that, but we don't.
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已经其他州在这样做了,但我们还没有。
13:32
We could be providing special schools,
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我们可以提供专门的学校,从高中
13:35
at both the high school level and the middle school level,
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到初中,甚至是小学5年级的孩子,
13:38
but even in K-5,
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13:40
that target economically and otherwise disadvantaged kids,
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目标是帮助经济和其他方面处于不利地位的孩子,特别是
13:43
and particularly kids who have had exposure to the juvenile justice system.
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已经触犯过
少年司法系统的孩子。
13:47
There are a handful of states that do that;
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这正是几个州都在做的事 ;
13:50
Texas doesn't.
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德克萨斯州并没有。
13:52
There's one other thing we can be doing -- well, there are a bunch of other things --
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有一件事,是我们可以做的 — —
也许,有很多其他我们应该做的事情 — — 但是有一件事我们可以做的,
13:56
there's one other thing that I'm going to mention,
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我也不得不在这里提一下,这也是今天唯一有
13:58
and this is going to be the only controversial thing that I say today.
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争议的事。
14:01
We could be intervening much more aggressively
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3346
我们可以更加积极
的干预
14:05
into dangerously dysfunctional homes,
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3176
那些已经变得危险并功能失调的家庭,
14:08
and getting kids out of them
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并把他们的孩子
14:10
before their moms pick up butcher knives and threaten to kill them.
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850420
3400
在他们的妈妈拿起屠夫刀并威胁要杀死他们之前解救出来。
14:15
If we're going to do that, we need a place to put them.
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如果我们要这样做,
我们需要地方安置他们。
14:19
Even if we do all of those things,
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即使我们做到所有这些事,仍然会有一些孩子会被漏掉
14:21
some kids are going to fall through the cracks
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14:23
and they're going to end up in that last chapter
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然后他们在这谋杀的故事最后一章开始之前
14:25
before the murder story begins,
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14:27
they're going to end up in the juvenile justice system.
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最终在少年司法系统中结束。
即使发生这种情况,
14:30
And even if that happens, it's not yet too late.
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它还不算太晚。
14:33
There's still time to nudge them,
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仍有时间去改变他们的命运,
14:36
if we think about nudging them rather than just punishing them.
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如果我们想帮助他们
而不是只惩罚他们。
14:40
There are two professors in the Northeast --
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有两位教授在东北部地区 — — 个在耶鲁大学 — —一个在马里兰州
14:42
one at Yale and one at Maryland --
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他们建立了一所学校
14:44
they set up a school that is attached to a juvenile prison.
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该学校于一个少年监狱相连。
14:49
And the kids are in prison, but they go to school
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孩子们虽然在狱中,但他们早上八点上课
14:51
from eight in the morning until four in the afternoon.
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下午四点结束。
14:54
Now, it was logistically difficult.
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逻辑上很难理解。
14:55
They had to recruit teachers who wanted to teach inside a prison,
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他们需要招聘可以在监狱内教课的教师
他们建立了严格
14:59
they had to establish strict separation
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15:00
between the people who work at the school and the prison authorities,
273
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3254
制度把在这所学校工作的人和监狱当局分离开,
最难的是,他们需要设计新的课程表,因为
15:04
and most dauntingly of all,
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15:05
they needed to invent a new curriculum because you know what?
275
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你知道?
15:08
People don't come into and out of prison on a semester basis.
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这些人不可能以学期的基础上进出监狱。
15:11
(Laughter)
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15:13
But they did all those things.
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2160
但他们做了所有这些事情。
15:16
Now, what do all of these things have in common?
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所有这些事情有什么共同点?
15:19
What all of these things have in common is that they cost money.
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这些事情的共同点是他们需要花钱。
15:25
Some of the people in the room might be old enough
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这里的一些年纪够大的人可能还记得
15:27
to remember the guy on the old oil filter commercial.
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4416
曾经在机油滤清器商业广告上那个人。
15:32
He used to say, "Well, you can pay me now or you can pay me later."
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5440
他常说,"好吧,你现在可以支付我
或者您可以再付给我钱。“
15:39
What we're doing in the death penalty system
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我们正在做什么
在死刑制度中
15:43
is we're paying later.
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943860
2040
正是我们后付钱。
15:47
But the thing is that for every 15,000 dollars
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3896
但是事实是
我们每花 15000 美元越早帮助
15:51
that we spend intervening
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2176
15:53
in the lives of economically and otherwise disadvantaged kids
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3736
在经济和其他方面处于
15:57
in those earlier chapters,
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1296
不利地位的孩子们,
15:58
we save 80,000 dollars in crime-related costs down the road.
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4040
我们在与犯罪有关的费用中就可以节省 80,000 美元。
16:03
Even if you don't agree that there's a moral imperative that we do it,
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即使您不同意
我们道德责任去做这些事,
它仍然有经济意义。
16:09
it just makes economic sense.
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2560
16:13
I want to tell you about the last conversation that I had with Will.
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3191
我想告诉你们我和威尔最后的谈话。
16:17
It was the day that he was going to be executed,
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4040
就是在他被执行死刑的那那天,
我们只是谈话。
16:22
and we were just talking.
295
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2416
16:25
There was nothing left to do in his case.
296
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2400
没有别的事情可以做了
在他的案子里。
16:28
And we were talking about his life.
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1760
我们谈论了他的一生。
16:31
And he was talking first about his dad, who he hardly knew, who had died,
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3840
首先,他谈到他的爸爸,一个他几乎不认识的人
而且已经死了,
然后关于他的妈妈,
16:35
and then about his mom, who he did know, who was still alive.
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4440
他知道,
还活着。
16:41
And I said to him,
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1200
我对他说,
16:43
"I know the story.
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1200
"我知道这个故事。
16:45
I've read the records.
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1200
我读过记录。
16:47
I know that she tried to kill you."
303
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1680
我知道她想杀了你"。
16:50
I said, "But I've always wondered
304
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1616
我说,"但是我一直在想是否你真的
16:51
whether you really actually remember that."
305
1011820
2976
记得。
16:54
I said, "I don't remember anything from when I was five years old.
306
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4016
我说,"我不记得任何件事
从我五岁那年。
16:58
Maybe you just remember somebody telling you."
307
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2160
也许你只是记得有人告诉你。"
17:01
And he looked at me and he leaned forward,
308
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2376
他看着我然后俯身向前,
17:04
and he said, "Professor," --
309
1024060
1376
说,"教授,"— — 他认识了我 12 年,仍然称我教授。
17:05
he'd known me for 12 years, he still called me Professor.
310
1025460
2696
17:08
He said, "Professor, I don't mean any disrespect by this,
311
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3016
他说,"教授,我没有对你不尊重的意思,
17:11
but when your mama picks up a butcher knife
312
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2456
但当你的妈妈
拿起一把看上去比你还要大的屠刀,
17:13
that looks bigger than you are,
313
1033700
2376
17:16
and chases you through the house screaming she's going to kill you,
314
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3776
并尖叫着在房间里追杀你,
17:19
and you have to lock yourself in the bathroom
315
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2296
你只能把你自己锁在浴室,靠着门
17:22
and lean against the door
316
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1256
17:23
and holler for help until the police get there,"
317
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2440
直到警察赶到才能得救,"
他看着我,说,
17:27
he looked at me and he said,
318
1047260
1936
17:29
"that's something you don't forget."
319
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2159
"这是你永远忘不了的事。"
17:32
I hope there's one thing you all won't forget:
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2696
我希望你们都不会忘记一件事:
17:35
In between the time you arrived here this morning
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2336
从你今天早晨到达这里到午餐时间,
17:37
and the time we break for lunch,
322
1057820
1576
在美国就有四个人
17:39
there are going to be four homicides in the United States.
323
1059420
3456
被杀。
17:42
We're going to devote enormous social resources
324
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3176
我们投入了大量社会资源惩治这些
17:46
to punishing the people who commit those crimes,
325
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2256
犯下这些罪行的人,这是适当的,因为我们应惩罚
17:48
and that's appropriate
326
1068380
1216
17:49
because we should punish people who do bad things.
327
1069620
2376
做坏事的人。
但其中三起犯罪都是可以预防的。
17:52
But three of those crimes are preventable.
328
1072020
2433
17:55
If we make the picture bigger
329
1075140
3256
如果我们把眼光放的更远
17:58
and devote our attention to the earlier chapters,
330
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3360
同时关注早期的章节,
18:02
then we're never going to write the first sentence
331
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3456
然后我们就永远不会撰写出
18:06
that begins the death penalty story.
332
1086100
1760
死刑故事开始的第一句。
18:08
Thank you.
333
1088940
1216
谢谢。
(掌声)
18:10
(Applause)
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1421
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