How we read each other's minds | Rebecca Saxe

翻译人员: Ricky Lee 校对人员: zhangb bin

Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.

今天我要和大家谈的是有关于人的观念

And the problem I'm going to talk about

接下来我要讲的内容

is not the familiar one from philosophy,

不是我们所熟悉的哲学的问题

which is, "How can we know

比如“我们根本不知道

whether other people have minds?"

其它人是否真的有思想”

That is, maybe you have a mind,

也就是说，也学你是有思想的

and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.

但对其它人实际上不过就一机器人

So that's a problem in philosophy,

这类问题都是哲学的问题

but for today's purposes I'm going to assume

但为了今天的演讲，我会假设

that many people in this audience have a mind,

这里的听众都有自己的思想，

and that I don't have to worry about this.

所以我就不用担心“是否有观念”这个命题

There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us

第二个问题是

as parents and teachers and spouses

是像我们这些作为父母，老师,已婚之人还有小说家

and novelists,

经常碰到

which is, "Why is it so hard

“为什么去了解

to know what somebody else wants or believes?"

别人的企图或者想法如此之难？"

Or perhaps, more relevantly,

也许更贴切的说法是

"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"

“为什么去改变他人的企图和信仰如此难？"

I think novelists put this best.

我觉得小说家们最能描述这个问题

Like Philip Roth, who said,

正如菲利普·罗斯所说

"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business

我们究竟对别人做了什么

of other people?

恐怖的事？

So ill equipped are we all,

那就是我们所有人在没有能力的情况下

to envision one another's interior workings

的去预想他人的内心想法

and invisible aims."

还有那些无法看见的目的”

So as a teacher and as a spouse,

当然，作为一名教师，而且还是一名一个已婚人士

this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.

我每天也同样遭遇类似的问题

But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,

但是作为一名科学家，我对其它的不同于这些的观点更有兴趣

and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.

这也是我今天将要给大家介绍的内容

And that problem is, "How is it so easy

这个问题就是

to know other minds?"

“怎么才能简单的去知道别人的想法？”

So to start with an illustration,

我们以这张图片开始

you need almost no information,

你几乎不需要额外信息

one snapshot of a stranger,

第一眼看见这个陌生人

to guess what this woman is thinking,

就能猜到这个女人在想什么

or what this man is.

或者这个男人呢

And put another way, the crux of the problem is

换一种说法，这问题的纠结在于

the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,

我们是用什么样的机制去思考别人的想法，

our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,

我们的大脑，是由各种成千上万的脑细胞所组成

that we share with all other animals, with monkeys

这点和其它动物，如猴子

and mice and even sea slugs.

老鼠，甚至于软体动物都是一样

And yet, you put them together in a particular network,

然而，当你把它们以某种特殊的网络组合在一起的时候

and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.

你就拥有书写《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的能力

Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,

或者说，像格林斯潘做过的一样

"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,

“我知道你认为自己已经能理解我说过的话

but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard

但是我不确定你是否真的听明白我说的内容

is not what I meant."

它是不是我要表达的意思”

(Laughter)

（笑）

So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience

我工作的研究领域是认知神经科学

is to stand with these ideas,

就是研究每一个人的

one in each hand.

这些想法

And to try to understand how you can put together

然后尝试如何能把它们归到一起

simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,

简单的单元，简单的信息，不受到时间和空间的限制

and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.

具有这些就可以拥有人类思考的能力

So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.

我下来要和大家主要谈三个方面的事情

Obviously the whole project here is huge.

很明显，这样的一个研究项目非常庞大

And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps

我只谈到的只是我们最初的几个研究阶段

about the discovery of a special brain region

有关于发现

for thinking about other people's thoughts.

大脑中用于思考的区域

Some observations on the slow development of this system

另外一些是观察这个机制是如何慢慢发展起来

as we learn how to do this difficult job.

因为我们要明白如何去完成这份困难的任务

And then finally, to show that some of the differences

最后一个是，展现下人与人之间的差别

between people, in how we judge others,

我们如何去给他人下结论

can be explained by differences in this brain system.

通过脑系统可以解释这之前的差异

So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that

那么首先，第一个和大家讲述的是

there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,

在人类的大脑中有一个区域

whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.

这个区域的任务就是去思考别人是如何思考的

This is a picture of it.

这里是一张关于它的图片

It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.

我们称它为右颞顶联合

It's above and behind your right ear.

它大概就在你右耳的后上方

And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,

这张图片就是我们所使用的大脑区域

or when you read Romeo and Juliet

当你在读《罗密欧和朱丽叶》时

or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.

又或当你试着去理解格林斯潘时候就用到它

And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.

但你不会使用它来解决任何逻辑推理的问题

So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.

我们称这块脑区域为 RTPJ

And this picture shows the average activation

这张图片显示了典型成人的

in a group of what we call typical human adults.

RTPJ的平均水平

They're MIT undergraduates.

这种水平就是是麻省理工的大学生水平

(Laughter)

笑

The second thing I want to say about this brain system

第二个我要谈的是这个脑系统

is that although we human adults

尽管我们成人的脑系统

are really good at understanding other minds,

很擅长去理解他人的想法

we weren't always that way.

但也不是绝对的

It takes children a long time to break into the system.

对于小孩而言需要很长的一段时间才能构建这个系统

I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.

我会给大家看下这个有点缓慢的、需要外部协助发展的过程

The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,

第一个演示的是3岁的孩子与5岁孩子的变化差异

as kids learn to understand

因为孩子要学会去理解

that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.

别人可以有完全不同于自己的想法

So I'm going to show you a five-year-old

先看下一个5岁大的

who is getting a standard kind of puzzle

他面临一个标准的困惑

that we call the false belief task.

我们把这个困惑称为“错误信念任务”

Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.

视频：这是第一个海盗，名字叫做艾凡

And you know what pirates really like?

你知道海盗最喜欢什么吗？

Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.

海盗最喜欢乳酪三明治

Child: Cheese? I love cheese!

乳酪?我爱吃乳酪

RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,

对的！那么艾凡有这个乳酪三明治

and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!

然后他说着“嗯 嗯 嗯 嗯 嗯 嗯!

I really love cheese sandwiches."

我最爱乳酪三明治"

And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.

然后艾凡把他的三明治放在这里，一个海盗箱的上面

And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."

然后艾凡又说“你知道不, 我要为午餐去弄点喝的”

And so Ivan goes to get a drink.

然后艾凡离开去取酒

And while Ivan is away

当艾凡离开的时候

the wind comes,

一阵风挂来

and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.

把三明治吹到了草地上

And now, here comes the other pirate.

这时候，又来了另外一个海盗

This pirate is called Joshua.

这个海盗叫做约书亚

And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.

当然约书亚也一样很喜欢乳酪三明治

So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,

约书亚也有一个乳酪三明治，然后他说

"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."

“嗯 嗯 嗯 嗯！我爱乳酪三明治”

And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.

接着他把他的乳酪三明治放到了这个海盗箱的上面

Child: So, that one is his.

孩子：这个就是他的

RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.

丽蓓卡.萨克斯:那个是约书亚。对极了！

Child: And then his went on the ground.

孩子：接着他离开这里

RS: That's exactly right.

丽蓓卡.萨克斯:完全正确

Child: So he won't know which one is his.

孩子：那他不会知道哪个是他自己的

RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.

丽蓓卡.萨克斯:喔，那现在约书亚离开去喝酒了

Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

艾凡回来，他说“我要我的乳酪三明治."

So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?

那你认为艾凡将会拿走哪一个呢？

Child: I think he is going to take that one.

孩子：我认为他会拿走那一个

RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.

丽蓓卡.萨克斯:耶，你认为他会拿走这个吧？对极了。我们看看

Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.

哦，你猜对了。他拿走了那个

So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands

对于一个5岁大的孩子已经可以清晰的理解

that other people can have false beliefs

别人可能会有误解

and what the consequences are for their actions.

那这种行为会有什么影响呢？

Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old

现在我给你看下一个三岁大的孩子

who got the same puzzle.

他也碰到相同的问题

RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

视频：丽蓓卡.萨克斯：艾凡说“我想要我的乳酪三明治”

Which sandwich is he going to take?

他会拿那个走呢？

Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.

你认为他会拿走那个吗？我们看下会有什么发生

Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.

艾凡来啦。我们看看他会怎么做。

And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

他说“我要我的乳酪三明治”

And he takes this one.

接着他拿走了这一个

Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?

噢。他为什么要拿那个啊？

Child: His was on the grass.

他的掉在了草地上了

So the three-year-old does two things differently.

丽蓓卡.萨克斯：那么三岁大的孩子做了两件不同的事情

First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich

第一个是他认定艾凡会带走那个

that's really his.

真正是他的三明治

And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,

第二，当他看到艾凡从他放置的地方拿走三明治

where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,

对于我们而言会认为艾凡会拿走那一个因为艾凡认为那个是他的

the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:

但是三岁大的孩子会有另外一种解释

He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,

艾凡不带走本属于他三文治是他不想要

because now it's dirty, on the ground.

因为它现在已经掉在地上被搞脏了

So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.

所以这是为什他拿走另外的三明治

Now of course, development doesn't end at five.

当然，智力的发展不是在5岁时候就结束了

And we can see the continuation of this process

我们可以看到随着年龄增长，

of learning to think about other people's thoughts

去学习理解他人想法的

by upping the ante

是一个连续的过程

and asking children now, not for an action prediction,

接着我问小孩子们，不是关于海盗的做法

but for a moral judgment.

而是对道德的判断

So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.

首先再给大家看下三岁大的孩子的情况

RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?

视频：艾凡是不是不应该拿走约书亚的三明治呢？

Child: Yeah.

孩子：当然

RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?

那艾凡拿走了约书亚的三明治会不会惹上麻烦？

Child: Yeah.

孩子：当然.

So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan

丽蓓卡.萨克斯：因此不奇怪当艾凡拿走约书亚的三明治时候

to take Joshua's sandwich,

他认为不应该

since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich

因为他认为艾凡拿走约书亚是为了

to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.

不想吃他那个已经弄脏的三明治

But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.

但现在我给大家看下5岁的孩子的情况

Remember the five-year-old completely understood

还记得5岁大的孩子完全能理解

why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.

艾凡为什么拿走约书亚的三明治吧

RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty

艾凡拿走约书亚的三明治是不是

for taking Joshua's sandwich?

拿走约书亚的三明治啊？

Child: Um, yeah.

恩，当然

And so, it is not until age seven

同时，一直到7岁大的孩子

that we get what looks more like an adult response.

我们看到了类似于成人的反应

RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?

视频：艾凡拿走了约书亚的三明治是否会惹麻烦啊？

Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.

孩子：不会，因为是风惹的

He says the wind should get in trouble

他回答说风会惹上麻烦

for switching the sandwiches.

因为它调换了三明治

(Laughter)

（笑）

And now what we've started to do in my lab

现在我们实验室所做的

is to put children into the brain scanner

就是扫描这些孩子的大脑

and ask what's going on in their brain

然后问他们打算做什么

as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.

因为他们开发这种能力去思考别人的想法

So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,

所以第一个我们我们发现在相同的大脑区域，即RTPJ区域

being used while children are thinking about other people.

孩子们在思考别人时候使用到了它

But it's not quite like the adult brain.

但这又和成人的不太一样

So whereas in the adults, as I told you,

那么成年人用那块区域思考呢？正我之前说的

this brain region is almost completely specialized --

这片脑区域几乎完全是思考专用的

it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --

它几乎不做其他任何事情，除了思考别人的想法

in children it's much less so,

对于5到8岁的孩子来说

when they are age five to eight,

这块区域很少

the age range of the children I just showed you.

这年龄段也就是刚刚给大家演示的孩子

And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,

事实上，如果我们看下11岁大的

getting into early adolescence,

也刚进入青春期的小孩

they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.

他们依然没有类似于成人的脑区域

And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood

也就是说，我们能够可以在整个幼年期看到这一过程

and even into adolescence,

即使进入了青春期

both the cognitive system,

对于两个认知系统

our mind's ability to think about other minds,

一个我们去认知别人想法的能力

and the brain system that supports it

另一个是大脑的基本系统

are continuing, slowly, to develop.

都在持续的缓慢的发展

But of course, as you're probably aware,

当然，你也可能意识到

even in adulthood,

即使是在成年人阶段

people differ from one another in how good they are

人与人之间是否能准确的判断出他人的想法的区别

at thinking of other minds, how often they do it

取决于是否经常使用

and how accurately.

也取决于能够达到多精确

And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults

那么我们想要知道的是，能否在成年人中区分出

in how they think about other people's thoughts

他们是如何思考别人的想法

be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?

也就能解释出不同的大脑区域的关键

So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version

我们第一个做的事情就是拿出一个成人版的海盗问题

of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.

类似于我们给小孩们做的一样

And I'm going to give that to you now.

我现在就拿出来给大家

So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,

葛瑞丝和她的朋友去化工厂参观

and they take a break for coffee.

然后她们中途去喝杯咖啡

And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.

而且葛瑞丝的朋友想要加些糖

Grace goes to make the coffee

葛瑞丝就离开去弄咖啡

and finds by the coffee a pot

并找到了一个装满咖啡的罐子

containing a white powder, which is sugar.

还包括一些白色的粉，这粉末就是糖

But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"

但是那个装有粉末的标签上却写着“剧毒”

so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.

所以葛瑞丝认为那些粉末就是一个剧毒物质

And she puts it in her friend's coffee.

接着她把这东西放到了朋友的咖啡

And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.

朋友喝了这玩意后呢，一切正常

How many people think it was morally permissible

有多少人认同

for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?

葛瑞丝把这粉末倒入咖啡在道德上是允许的呢？

Okay. Good. (Laughter)

好，很好!(笑）

So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed

对于这个案例中，我们问下有多少人认为葛瑞丝应该受到责备

in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?

我们把这种行为称为故意伤害

And we can compare that to another case,

我们可以拿它和其它例子比较

where everything in the real world is the same.

在现实世界中

The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.

如果粉末依然是糖，但要是葛瑞丝不是这么认为呢？

Now she thinks the powder is sugar.

现在 她认为这些粉末就是糖

And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar

也许毫无意外的，如果葛瑞丝认为粉末就是糖的话

and puts it in her friend's coffee,

并把他们放到朋友的咖啡里面

people say she deserves no blame at all.

大家都认为她不应该受到任何责备

Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,

但假如她认为粉末就是毒药，尽管事实是真的糖

now people say she deserves a lot of blame,

但大家就会认为她应该受到严厉的惩罚

even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.

哪怕现实中这结果完全一样

And in fact, they say she deserves more blame

事实上他们认为她应该受到更多的惩罚

in this case, the failed attempt to harm,

在这个案例中，企图伤害的行为

than in another case,

不像上一个案例

which we call an accident.

我们换称为“意外”

Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,

当葛瑞丝认为粉末是糖

because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,

因为咖啡机上的标签就是糖

but actually the powder was poison.

但实际上粉末就是毒药

So even though when the powder was poison,

尽管粉末是毒药

the friend drank the coffee and died,

朋友喝了咖啡然后就挂掉

people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,

在这个案例中，大家会认为葛瑞丝应该少受些惩罚

when she innocently thought it was sugar,

但在上一个案例中，她认为是毒药，但没有危害发生糖

than in the other case, where she thought it was poison

现在她完全的认为是糖

and no harm occurred.

并且也没有危害

People, though, disagree a little bit

葛瑞丝应该受到怎么样程度的惩罚

about exactly how much blame Grace should get

对于此大家意见不一

in the accident case.

在这个事故的案例中

Some people think she should deserve more blame,

有人认为她应该受到更多的惩罚

and other people less.

而另一部分人认为应该少些

And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside

下来我给大家观看下当我们做出决断时候

the brains of people while they're making that judgment.

我们大脑里面的样子

So what I'm showing you, from left to right,

我要播放的是，从左到右

is how much activity there was in this brain region,

他们的活动究竟有多少

and from top to bottom, how much blame

同时从上到下，人们认为

people said that Grace deserved.

葛瑞丝应该受到惩罚

And what you can see is, on the left

你能看到，在左边

when there was very little activity in this brain region,

的脑区域只有很小的一部分是活动的

people paid little attention to her innocent belief

人们只把一部分注意力放在无罪的想法

and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.

然后说她应该为这个事故受到更多的惩罚

Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,

不同的是，在右边，脑区域活动非常多

people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,

人们把很多注意力放到了

and said she deserved a lot less blame

葛瑞丝应该为这个事故

for causing the accident.

少程度些责任

So that's good, but of course

这虽然很好，但是当然

what we'd rather is have a way to interfere

我们期望有某种接口

with function in this brain region,

能够调用到大脑的区域

and see if we could change people's moral judgment.

然后看看是否能改变人们的道德观判断

And we do have such a tool.

我们实现了这样一种工具

It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,

成为“颅磁刺激”

or TMS.

或者 TMS

This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse

这个工具能让我们传递一个脉冲磁感应

through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,

以穿透头骨抵达到他们的脑区域

and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.

临时的扰乱这些区域的脑神经元

So I'm going to show you a demo of this.

下来给大家播放下这个东西的演示视频

First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.

第一个演示的是一个磁感脉冲

I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.

给大家看下当你放入1/4机器时候有什么发生

When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.

当你听到点击时候我们就把机器打开

So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,

然后我接着把这个脉冲用到我的大脑

to the part of my brain that controls my hand.

这部分脑区域控制我的手

So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.

这里没有物理上的强迫，仅仅是磁场的脉冲

Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.

视频：女：准备好没？好的

Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand

好的。把这个磁感应脉冲放到我的大脑上

by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.

它稍微的引起了我的手下意识的反应

And we can use that same pulse,

同时我们可以使用相同的脉冲

now applied to the RTPJ,

应用到RTPJ

to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.

去尝试下我们是否能改变人们的道德判断

So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.

正如之前我给你们看到的人们做的道德判断

And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ

现在我把TMS应用到RTPJ上

and ask how people's judgments change.

然后迫使改变人们的观念的判断

And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.

结果第一个是，人们依然可以完全的做原来的判断

So their judgments of the case when everything was fine

因此当一切是正常时候，对于这个案例

remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.

的判断完全一致。他们认为她不应该受到惩罚

But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,

但在企图伤害的案例中

where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,

也就是葛瑞丝认为是毒药，尽管他真正是糖的时候

people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame

大家马上就说很好，葛瑞丝

for putting the powder in the coffee.

把这粉末放到了咖啡应该受些许惩罚

And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,

而在那个事故的案例中，也就是葛瑞丝认为是糖

but it was really poison and so she caused a death,

但实际却是毒药最后导致死亡时

people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.

更少的人同意，认为她应该受到更多的惩罚

So what I've told you today is that

那么我今天要告诉大家的是

people come, actually, especially well equipped

未来的人类，真正的拥有一个设备

to think about other people's thoughts.

去思考其他人的想法。

We have a special brain system

我们有这样一个特殊的脑系统

that lets us think about what other people are thinking.

可以使得我们去思考其他人的想法

This system takes a long time to develop,

这个系统需要漫长的时间去实现

slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.

遍及整个幼年时期也包括早期的青春期

And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region

而且即使在成人阶段，在不同的脑区域

can explain differences among adults

能够解释成人之间

in how we think about and judge other people.

如何去思考和判断其他人想法的区别

But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,

我想在最后结束前引用前面提到的小说家

and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,

也就是菲利普·罗斯说过的话作为结束

"The fact remains that getting people right

“事实上，人们的权利不是

is not what living is all about anyway.

不顾现实是如何的

It's getting them wrong that is living.

而是让错误存在生活中

Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,

让他们一错再错

and then on careful reconsideration,

并且小心谨慎

getting them wrong again."

的让错误发生”

Thank you.

谢谢

(Applause)

（笑）

Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using

你们是从什么时候开始讨论用

magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,

磁场脉冲去改变人们的观念的判断呢？

that sounds alarming.

这玩意听起来吓人

(Laughter)

（笑）

Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.

告诉我你没有收到过五角大楼的电话吧？

RS: I'm not.

丽贝卡.萨克斯：这到没有

I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.

我的意思是他们打过了，但我没有去接

(Laughter)

（笑）

CA: They really are calling?

他们真的打了？

So then seriously,

那我严肃的问你

you must lie awake at night sometimes

你一定有段时间睡不着

wondering where this work leads.

不知道这个研究导致什么结果

I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,

我指的是虽然我们完全相信你

but someone could take this knowledge

但将来可能会有些人

and in some future

利用这些知识

not-torture chamber,

进行审问

do acts that people here might be worried about.

这才是我们现场所有人所担心的

RS: Yeah, we worry about this.

是的，我们也担心这个

So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.

所以有很多关于TMS的需要说明下

One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.

第一个是你不能对不知情的人使用TMS

So it's not a surreptitious technology.

因为它不是一项暗中使用的技术

It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.

即使是很小的一些改变也是很难的

The changes I showed you are impressive to me

刚才给你看的那些变化也让我挺难忘的

because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,

因为它告诉了我们大脑的功能是什么

but they're small on the scale

虽然我们用来做道德判但的脑区域很小

of the moral judgments that we actually make.

但我们就是用它来判断的

And what we changed was not people's

而我们所能改变的不是人们

moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,

在做决定时候的道德观念的判断

when they're making action choices.

也不是影响他们做选择时候的决定

We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.

我们改变只是如何去思考别人时候的判断

And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as

所以我认为我在做的不是

studying the defendant in a criminal trial,

针对被告

but studying the jury.

而是针对陪审团

CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations

你的研究工作是否会带到

in education, to perhaps bring up

教育领域，

a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?

比如让下一代的孩子做出更加公平的道德判断呢？

RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.

这是一个比较理想的结果

The whole research program here of studying

目前整个研究阶段

the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.

是针对比较脑力发达的人，这是一个崭新的领域

Until recently, what we knew about the brain

到目前为止我们所了解的大脑

were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,

在其它动物身上一样可以适用

so we could study it in animal models.

所以我们可以研究动物的模型

We knew how brains see, and how they control the body

我们要知道大脑看到的是什么，它是如何去控制身体的

and how they hear and sense.

还有他们所听到的、感觉到的

And the whole project of understanding

整个项目需要搞明白的是

how brains do the uniquely human things --

人类的大脑为什么是如此特别，能够

learn language and abstract concepts,

学习语言、学习抽象的概念

and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.

还能够去思考其他人的想法，这就是一个新的领域

And we don't know yet what the implications will be

还有目前我们所不知道，如果研究出这些

of understanding it.

将会有什么影响

CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called

好的，那我再问我最后一个问题。那个被称为

the hard problem of consciousness,

意识的难题

that puzzles a lot of people.

也难倒了很多人

The notion that you can understand

正如你提到的，如果你能够

why a brain works, perhaps.

搞懂大脑的工作原理

But why does anyone have to feel anything?

但为什么人要感知所有的事情？

Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things

我们为什么要去控制人类这些

for us to operate?

感知行为呢？

You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.

你作为一个年轻有为的神经系统科学家

I mean, what chances do you think there are

我的意思是，你认为在你的

that at some time in your career,

研究生涯中的某刻

someone, you or someone else,

一些人，你或者其他的人

is going to come up with some paradigm shift

是否会带来根本性的成果

in understanding what seems an impossible problem?

能够研究出这个看起来不肯能的难题

RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.

我希望他们能做到。但我认为他们可能实现不了

CA: Why?

为什么？

RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.

那说的那个叫做意识的难题根本不存在

(Laughter)

（笑）

CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.

真精彩的回答。 Rebecca Saxe谢谢你，非常的精彩

(Applause)

（掌声）