How we read each other's minds | Rebecca Saxe

561,020 views ・ 2009-09-11

TED


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
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And the problem I'm going to talk about
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is not the familiar one from philosophy,
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which is, "How can we know
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whether other people have minds?"
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That is, maybe you have a mind,
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and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
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So that's a problem in philosophy,
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but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
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that many people in this audience have a mind,
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and that I don't have to worry about this.
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There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
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as parents and teachers and spouses
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and novelists,
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which is, "Why is it so hard
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to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
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Or perhaps, more relevantly,
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"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
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I think novelists put this best.
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Like Philip Roth, who said,
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"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
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of other people?
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So ill equipped are we all,
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to envision one another's interior workings
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and invisible aims."
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So as a teacher and as a spouse,
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this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
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But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
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and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
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And that problem is, "How is it so easy
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to know other minds?"
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So to start with an illustration,
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you need almost no information,
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one snapshot of a stranger,
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to guess what this woman is thinking,
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or what this man is.
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And put another way, the crux of the problem is
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the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
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our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
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that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
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and mice and even sea slugs.
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And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
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and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
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Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
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"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
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but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
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is not what I meant."
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(Laughter)
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So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
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is to stand with these ideas,
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one in each hand.
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02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
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simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
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and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
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So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
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Obviously the whole project here is huge.
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And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
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about the discovery of a special brain region
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for thinking about other people's thoughts.
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Some observations on the slow development of this system
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as we learn how to do this difficult job.
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And then finally, to show that some of the differences
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between people, in how we judge others,
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can be explained by differences in this brain system.
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So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
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there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
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whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
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This is a picture of it.
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It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
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It's above and behind your right ear.
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And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
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or when you read Romeo and Juliet
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or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
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And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
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So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
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And this picture shows the average activation
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in a group of what we call typical human adults.
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They're MIT undergraduates.
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(Laughter)
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The second thing I want to say about this brain system
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is that although we human adults
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are really good at understanding other minds,
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we weren't always that way.
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It takes children a long time to break into the system.
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I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
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The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
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as kids learn to understand
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that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
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So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
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who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
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that we call the false belief task.
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Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
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And you know what pirates really like?
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Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
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Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
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RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
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and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
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I really love cheese sandwiches."
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And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
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And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
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And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
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And while Ivan is away
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the wind comes,
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and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
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And now, here comes the other pirate.
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This pirate is called Joshua.
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And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
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So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
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"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
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And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
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Child: So, that one is his.
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RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
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Child: And then his went on the ground.
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RS: That's exactly right.
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Child: So he won't know which one is his.
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RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
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Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
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Child: I think he is going to take that one.
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RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
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Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
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So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
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that other people can have false beliefs
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and what the consequences are for their actions.
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Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
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who got the same puzzle.
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RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Which sandwich is he going to take?
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Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
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Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
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And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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And he takes this one.
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Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
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Child: His was on the grass.
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So the three-year-old does two things differently.
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First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
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that's really his.
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And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
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where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
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the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
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He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
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because now it's dirty, on the ground.
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So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
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Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
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And we can see the continuation of this process
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of learning to think about other people's thoughts
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by upping the ante
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and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
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but for a moral judgment.
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So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
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RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Child: Yeah.
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RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Child: Yeah.
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So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
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to take Joshua's sandwich,
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since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
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to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
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But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
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Remember the five-year-old completely understood
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why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
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RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
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for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Child: Um, yeah.
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And so, it is not until age seven
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that we get what looks more like an adult response.
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RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
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He says the wind should get in trouble
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for switching the sandwiches.
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(Laughter)
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And now what we've started to do in my lab
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is to put children into the brain scanner
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and ask what's going on in their brain
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as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
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So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
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being used while children are thinking about other people.
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But it's not quite like the adult brain.
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So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
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this brain region is almost completely specialized --
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it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
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in children it's much less so,
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when they are age five to eight,
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the age range of the children I just showed you.
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And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
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getting into early adolescence,
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they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
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And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
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and even into adolescence,
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both the cognitive system,
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our mind's ability to think about other minds,
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and the brain system that supports it
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are continuing, slowly, to develop.
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But of course, as you're probably aware,
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even in adulthood,
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people differ from one another in how good they are
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at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
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and how accurately.
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And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
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in how they think about other people's thoughts
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be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
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So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
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of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
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And I'm going to give that to you now.
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So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
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and they take a break for coffee.
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And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
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Grace goes to make the coffee
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and finds by the coffee a pot
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containing a white powder, which is sugar.
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But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
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so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
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And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
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And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
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How many people think it was morally permissible
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for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
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Okay. Good. (Laughter)
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So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
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in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
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And we can compare that to another case,
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where everything in the real world is the same.
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The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
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Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
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And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
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and puts it in her friend's coffee,
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people say she deserves no blame at all.
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Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
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now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
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even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
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And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
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in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
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than in another case,
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which we call an accident.
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Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
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because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
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but actually the powder was poison.
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So even though when the powder was poison,
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the friend drank the coffee and died,
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people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
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when she innocently thought it was sugar,
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than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
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and no harm occurred.
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People, though, disagree a little bit
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about exactly how much blame Grace should get
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in the accident case.
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Some people think she should deserve more blame,
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and other people less.
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And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
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the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
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So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
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is how much activity there was in this brain region,
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and from top to bottom, how much blame
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people said that Grace deserved.
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And what you can see is, on the left
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when there was very little activity in this brain region,
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people paid little attention to her innocent belief
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and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
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Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
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people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
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and said she deserved a lot less blame
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for causing the accident.
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So that's good, but of course
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what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
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with function in this brain region,
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and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
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And we do have such a tool.
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It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
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or TMS.
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This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
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through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
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and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
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So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
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First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
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I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
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When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
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So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
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to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
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So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
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Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
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Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
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by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
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And we can use that same pulse,
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now applied to the RTPJ,
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to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
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So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
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And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
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and ask how people's judgments change.
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And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
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So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
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remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
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But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
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where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
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people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
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for putting the powder in the coffee.
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And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
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but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
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people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
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So what I've told you today is that
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people come, actually, especially well equipped
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to think about other people's thoughts.
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We have a special brain system
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that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
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This system takes a long time to develop,
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slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
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And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
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can explain differences among adults
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in how we think about and judge other people.
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But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
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and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
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"The fact remains that getting people right
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is not what living is all about anyway.
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It's getting them wrong that is living.
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Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
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and then on careful reconsideration,
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getting them wrong again."
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Thank you.
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(Applause)
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Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
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magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
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that sounds alarming.
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(Laughter)
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Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
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RS: I'm not.
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I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
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(Laughter)
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CA: They really are calling?
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So then seriously,
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you must lie awake at night sometimes
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wondering where this work leads.
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I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
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but someone could take this knowledge
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and in some future
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not-torture chamber,
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do acts that people here might be worried about.
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RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
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So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
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One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
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So it's not a surreptitious technology.
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It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
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The changes I showed you are impressive to me
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because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
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but they're small on the scale
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of the moral judgments that we actually make.
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And what we changed was not people's
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moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
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when they're making action choices.
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We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
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And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
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studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
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but studying the jury.
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CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
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in education, to perhaps bring up
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a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
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RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
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The whole research program here of studying
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the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
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Until recently, what we knew about the brain
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were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
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so we could study it in animal models.
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We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
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and how they hear and sense.
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And the whole project of understanding
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how brains do the uniquely human things --
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learn language and abstract concepts,
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and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
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And we don't know yet what the implications will be
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of understanding it.
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CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
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the hard problem of consciousness,
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that puzzles a lot of people.
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The notion that you can understand
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why a brain works, perhaps.
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But why does anyone have to feel anything?
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Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
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for us to operate?
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You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
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I mean, what chances do you think there are
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that at some time in your career,
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someone, you or someone else,
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is going to come up with some paradigm shift
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in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
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RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
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CA: Why?
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RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
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(Laughter)
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CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
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(Applause)
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