How we read each other's minds | Rebecca Saxe

譯者: Lucy Jaryen Hsu 審譯者: Lucy Chang

Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.

今天我要和大家談談心智的問題

And the problem I'm going to talk about

我要談的

is not the familiar one from philosophy,

不是大家熟悉的哲學問題

which is, "How can we know

不是＂我們怎麼知道

whether other people have minds?"

別人有心智?＂

That is, maybe you have a mind,

說不定你有心智

and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.

其他人只是很像真人的機器人

So that's a problem in philosophy,

這是哲學問題

but for today's purposes I'm going to assume

而在這場演講中，我假設

that many people in this audience have a mind,

這裡大部分的觀眾都有心智

and that I don't have to worry about this.

我就不必費心在這個問題上了

There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us

第二個問題我們可能更熟悉

as parents and teachers and spouses

身為父母、老師、丈夫妻子

and novelists,

還有小說家

which is, "Why is it so hard

我們想問，＂為什麼我們很難

to know what somebody else wants or believes?"

知道別人要什麼或想什麼?"

Or perhaps, more relevantly,

或者更貼切來說

"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"

＂為什麼我們很難改變別人要的或想的?＂

I think novelists put this best.

我覺得小說家解釋得最好

Like Philip Roth, who said,

像菲利浦羅斯說的

"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business

＂而我們要如何處理「他人」

of other people?

這件無比重要的大事?"

So ill equipped are we all,

我們資質不足

to envision one another's interior workings

難以窺見彼此內心的思慮

and invisible aims."

與無法捉摸的意向"

So as a teacher and as a spouse,

而身為老師、妻子

this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.

這自然也是我每天都面對的問題

But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,

但身為科學家，我感興趣的是另一個問題

and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.

也就是我今天要向大家介紹的

And that problem is, "How is it so easy

這個問題是，＂為什麼我們這麼容易

to know other minds?"

就能了解他人的心智?＂

So to start with an illustration,

先看看這張照片

you need almost no information,

你幾乎不需要其他線索

one snapshot of a stranger,

隨便看一眼這個陌生人

to guess what this woman is thinking,

就能猜出這個女人在想什麼

or what this man is.

或這個男人在想什麼

And put another way, the crux of the problem is

換句話說，問題的關鍵

the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,

是我們用以思考別人心智的機制

our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,

也就是大腦，是由許多腦細胞組成

that we share with all other animals, with monkeys

這些細胞和其他動物沒什麼不同，和猴子

and mice and even sea slugs.

和老鼠，甚至海參都差不多

And yet, you put them together in a particular network,

不過，把這些細胞用特別的方式組織在一起

and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.

造出來的大腦就能寫出羅密歐與茱麗葉

Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,

或者，像葛林斯潘說的

"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,

"我知道你以為你明白你認為我所說的

but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard

不過我不確定你瞭解：你所聽到的

is not what I meant."

並非我真正的意思"

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience

認知神經科學的工作

is to stand with these ideas,

就是思考這些問題

one in each hand.

同時比較分析這些問題

And to try to understand how you can put together

並且試著了解為什麼

simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,

把簡單的細胞和訊息組織起來

and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.

人類就有驚人的能力，能思考他人心智

So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.

我今天要談三件事

Obviously the whole project here is huge.

這個研究計畫很龐大

And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps

我想談談計畫的頭幾個步驟 --

about the discovery of a special brain region

我們是怎麼發現腦中有特定的區塊

for thinking about other people's thoughts.

負責思考其他人的想法

Some observations on the slow development of this system

以及，這種能力發展緩慢

as we learn how to do this difficult job.

所以我們很晚才學會思考別人的想法

And then finally, to show that some of the differences

最後，說明道德判斷

between people, in how we judge others,

每個人不同

can be explained by differences in this brain system.

這和每個人的大腦差異有關

So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that

首先，我想告訴各位

there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,

人類大腦有個區塊

whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.

負責思考其他人的想法

This is a picture of it.

請看這張圖

It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.

這個區域叫右顳顱頂接縫區

It's above and behind your right ear.

在你右耳後面上方

And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,

你使用這個區塊，處理我剛才給你看的照片

or when you read Romeo and Juliet

或讀羅密歐與茱麗葉

or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.

或想辦法理解葛林斯潘在說什麼

And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.

你不會用這個區塊處理任何其他邏輯問題

So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.

好，這個區塊就叫RTPJ

And this picture shows the average activation

而這張照片顯示一般人的反應

in a group of what we call typical human adults.

一群所謂普通成年人的反應

They're MIT undergraduates.

一群麻省理工大學生

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

The second thing I want to say about this brain system

關於大腦，我想談的第二點是

is that although we human adults

雖然成人

are really good at understanding other minds,

對了解別人心智很拿手

we weren't always that way.

但這不是天生的

It takes children a long time to break into the system.

小孩子要很久才會使用這項能力

I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.

我稍微介紹一下這個漫長的學習過程

The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,

首先我想展現三歲和五歲小孩間的不同

as kids learn to understand

看看小孩學會了解

that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.

別人的想法和自己可能不一樣

So I'm going to show you a five-year-old

我要給各位看一個五歲的小孩

who is getting a standard kind of puzzle

他在做一個常見的測驗

that we call the false belief task.

叫做"錯誤信念作業"

Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.

這個海盜叫做艾文

And you know what pirates really like?

你知道海盜最喜歡什麼嗎？ --什麼？

Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.

海盜最喜歡起士三明治

Child: Cheese? I love cheese!

起士？我最喜歡起士了！

RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,

嗯，然後艾文吃他的起士三明治

and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!

他說："好吃、好吃、好吃

I really love cheese sandwiches."

我最喜歡起士三明治了"

And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.

然後艾文把三明治放在這裡，放在海盜的箱子上

And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."

他說：我要喝點東西配午餐

And so Ivan goes to get a drink.

然後艾文就走了，去喝飲料

And while Ivan is away

艾文不在的時候

the wind comes,

一陣風吹來，呼...

and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.

把艾文的三明治吹到草地上

And now, here comes the other pirate.

然後又來了第二個海盜

This pirate is called Joshua.

這個海盜叫做約書亞

And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.

約書亞也很喜歡起士三明治

So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,

約書亞也在吃起士三明治

"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."

他說："好吃、好吃、好吃，我最喜歡起士三明治了!"

And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.

然後把他的起士三明治放在海盜箱上

Child: So, that one is his.

所以這是他的起士三明治

RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.

對，這是約書亞的三明治

Child: And then his went on the ground.

然後艾文的掉在地上

RS: That's exactly right.

沒錯

Child: So he won't know which one is his.

所以他不知道哪個三明治是他的

RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.

嗯，然後約書亞也跑去拿飲料

Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

艾文回來了，他說：我要我的起士三明治

So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?

所以你覺得他會拿哪一個？

Child: I think he is going to take that one.

我覺得他會拿那一個

RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.

喔，你覺得他會拿那個嗎？好，等一下看看

Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.

對，你說的沒錯，艾文拿那一個

So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands

這個五歲小還很清楚

that other people can have false beliefs

別人可能有錯誤信念

and what the consequences are for their actions.

以及行為的結果是什麼

Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old

現在我要請各位看一個三歲的小孩

who got the same puzzle.

他接受同一個測驗

RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

然後艾文說：我要我的起士三明治

Which sandwich is he going to take?

他會拿哪一個三明治呢？

Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.

你覺得他會拿那個三明治嗎？等一下我們看看

Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.

我們來看看艾文會拿哪一個，艾文來了

And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."

他說："我要我的起士三明治"

And he takes this one.

他拿了這個三明治

Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?

喔，他為什麼拿這個三明治呢？

Child: His was on the grass.

"他的三明治掉在地上"

So the three-year-old does two things differently.

所以三歲小孩的想法有兩個地方不一樣

First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich

首先，他認為艾文會拿

that's really his.

真正屬於他的三明治

And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,

其次，當他看到艾文拿放在他原先地方的三明治

where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,

我們覺得是因為艾文以為那是他的三明治

the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:

這個三歲的小孩卻有別的解釋

He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,

他說艾文不拿他的三明治，因為他不想要了

because now it's dirty, on the ground.

因為那個三明治掉在地上弄髒了

So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.

所以艾文才拿另一個三明治

Now of course, development doesn't end at five.

當然大腦發展不會在五歲停止

And we can see the continuation of this process

我們可以看到這個過程一直持續下去

of learning to think about other people's thoughts

我們不停學習思考別人的心智

by upping the ante

我們問小孩更多問題

and asking children now, not for an action prediction,

然後，不是請他們預測行為

but for a moral judgment.

而是請他們下道德判斷

So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.

首先我再請各位看剛剛那個三歲小孩

RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?

那艾文是不是故意調皮搗蛋，才拿約書亞的三明治?

Child: Yeah.

對

RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?

那我們是不是要處罰艾文？

Child: Yeah.

對

So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan

或許我們不意外這個小朋友會認為艾文是故意

to take Joshua's sandwich,

要拿約書亞的三明治

since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich

因為他覺得艾文拿約書亞的三明治

to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.

是因為不想吃他自己髒掉的三明治

But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.

不過現在我想給各位看五歲小孩的反應

Remember the five-year-old completely understood

記得這個五歲小孩很清楚

why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.

為什麼艾文要拿約書亞的三明治

RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty

艾文是不是故意調皮搗蛋

for taking Joshua's sandwich?

要拿約書亞的三明治？

Child: Um, yeah.

嗯，對

And so, it is not until age seven

所以，一直要到七歲

that we get what looks more like an adult response.

小孩的反應才會比較像成人

RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?

我們是不是要處罰艾文，因為他拿了約書亞的三明治？

Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.

不對，要處罰風才對

He says the wind should get in trouble

他說要處罰風才對

for switching the sandwiches.

因為風把三明治調換了

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And now what we've started to do in my lab

目前我的實驗室在進行的實驗

is to put children into the brain scanner

是把兒童放在掃描儀器裡

and ask what's going on in their brain

觀察他們大腦的反應

as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.

看看發展思考他人心智能力的期間，大腦的狀況

So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,

首先我們看到兒童腦中同一個區塊，RTPJ

being used while children are thinking about other people.

也在思考他人心志時活動

But it's not quite like the adult brain.

但和成人的腦有點不同

So whereas in the adults, as I told you,

成人的腦，像我剛才說的

this brain region is almost completely specialized --

這個區塊幾乎完全特化

it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --

別的都不做，只用來思考別人的心智

in children it's much less so,

兒童的腦則不然

when they are age five to eight,

兒童在五歲到八歲

the age range of the children I just showed you.

也就是剛才的兒童所屬的年齡範圍

And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,

甚至在八歲到11歲

getting into early adolescence,

接近青春期的時候

they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.

腦中區塊的情況和成人還是不太一樣

And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood

因此，我們發現整個童年時期

and even into adolescence,

甚至一直到青春期

both the cognitive system,

我們的認知系統

our mind's ability to think about other minds,

也就是用自己的心智思考他人心志的能力

and the brain system that supports it

還有認知背後的大腦系統

are continuing, slowly, to develop.

都還在逐漸緩慢發展

But of course, as you're probably aware,

但是，或許各位也注意到

even in adulthood,

即使到了成年

people differ from one another in how good they are

每個人的認知能力還是不同，每個人是否擅長思考他人心智

at thinking of other minds, how often they do it

思考頻率

and how accurately.

還有結果是否正確，都各不相同

And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults

我們想問，成人間的不同

in how they think about other people's thoughts

在思考別人想法上的不同

be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?

是不是和每個人大腦這個區塊的差別有關

So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version

首先我們給成人

of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.

類似海盜問題的測驗

And I'm going to give that to you now.

現在我也給各位看看

So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,

葛瑞絲和她朋友去參觀化學工廠

and they take a break for coffee.

他們想休息一下，喝杯咖啡

And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.

葛瑞絲的朋友說她的咖啡要加糖

Grace goes to make the coffee

葛瑞絲去泡咖啡

and finds by the coffee a pot

發現咖啡旁有個罐子

containing a white powder, which is sugar.

裡面的白色粉末是糖粉

But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"

但罐子上寫 "劇毒"

so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.

所以葛瑞絲以為罐子裡的粉末是毒藥

And she puts it in her friend's coffee.

然後她把粉末放到朋友的咖啡裡

And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.

她朋友喝了咖啡，但安然無恙

How many people think it was morally permissible

有人認為葛瑞思把粉末放到朋友的咖啡杯

for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?

是合乎道德的嗎?

Okay. Good. (Laughter)

好，非常好 (笑聲)

So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed

接著我們問這件事葛瑞絲要付多少責任

in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?

這種情況叫做企圖傷害未遂

And we can compare that to another case,

我們可以拿來和另一個情況比較

where everything in the real world is the same.

其他條件都一樣

The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.

罐裡的粉末還是糖粉，唯一不同的是葛瑞絲的想法

Now she thinks the powder is sugar.

在這第二種情況中，葛瑞絲覺得那個粉末是糖粉

And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar

當然如果葛瑞絲認為那是糖粉

and puts it in her friend's coffee,

而加到朋友的咖啡裡

people say she deserves no blame at all.

多數人會認為葛瑞絲沒有錯

Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,

但如果葛瑞絲認為那是毒藥還把它加到朋友的咖啡裡，即使實際上那是糖粉

now people say she deserves a lot of blame,

多數人會認為葛瑞絲該受罰

even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.

雖然最後的結果其實和前一個狀況一樣

And in fact, they say she deserves more blame

還有，多數人認為在企圖傷害未遂的情況中

in this case, the failed attempt to harm,

葛瑞絲要負更多責任

than in another case,

而在另一個情況下，她不必負太多責任

which we call an accident.

這種情況叫意外

Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,

這時葛瑞絲認為罐子裡的粉末是糖粉

because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,

因為罐子上寫"糖粉"，還擺在咖啡旁邊

but actually the powder was poison.

雖然那是毒藥

So even though when the powder was poison,

所以，就算罐子裡其實是毒藥

the friend drank the coffee and died,

害朋友喝完咖啡後死掉

people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,

多數人認為葛瑞絲不必付那麼大的責任

when she innocently thought it was sugar,

因為她毫不知情，以為那是糖粉

than in the other case, where she thought it was poison

而在她以為是毒藥，拿給朋友喝的情況下

and no harm occurred.

雖然朋友沒事，但她要負更大責任

People, though, disagree a little bit

不過，在意外的情況中

about exactly how much blame Grace should get

究竟葛瑞絲要付多少責任

in the accident case.

大家意見不同

Some people think she should deserve more blame,

有些人覺得她要負很大的責任

and other people less.

有些人覺得她不用負什麼責任

And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside

而我要給各位看人類下道德判斷時

the brains of people while they're making that judgment.

大腦怎麼活動

So what I'm showing you, from left to right,

這張圖的X軸，左右方向

is how much activity there was in this brain region,

代表腦部RTPJ區塊活動多寡

and from top to bottom, how much blame

而Y軸，上下方向，

people said that Grace deserved.

代表人們認為葛瑞絲要付多少責任

And what you can see is, on the left

你可以看到，

when there was very little activity in this brain region,

在左邊，大腦這個區域沒有什麼活動時

people paid little attention to her innocent belief

大家沒有注意葛瑞絲並不知情

and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.

因此認為她要為意外負責

Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,

而在右邊，區塊大量活動

people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,

大家注意到葛瑞絲事前不知情

and said she deserved a lot less blame

因此認為她不用為這場意外

for causing the accident.

負太多責任

So that's good, but of course

看來很不錯

what we'd rather is have a way to interfere

但我們更想做的

with function in this brain region,

是干擾腦中這個區塊的功能

and see if we could change people's moral judgment.

看看是否可以改變人類的道德判斷

And we do have such a tool.

而且我們的確有這種工具

It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,

叫做穿顱磁刺激

or TMS.

簡稱TMS

This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse

我們可以用這個工具傳遞磁脈衝

through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,

通過頭骨，抵達大腦一個小區塊

and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.

暫時癱瘓那個區塊的神經功能

So I'm going to show you a demo of this.

現在請各位看示範

First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.

首先我要介紹磁脈衝

I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.

把硬幣放在機器上看看會發生什麼事

When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.

滴答聲響，表示機器打開

So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,

現在我要在我的大腦施加同樣的磁脈衝

to the part of my brain that controls my hand.

讓磁脈衝進入控制手部的區塊

So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.

這不是實際的外力，只是磁脈衝

Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.

準備好了嗎？ --好了

Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand

好，所以磁脈衝

by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.

讓我的手不由自主地收縮

And we can use that same pulse,

同樣的磁脈衝

now applied to the RTPJ,

現在施加在大腦的RTJP區塊

to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.

看看我們是否能改變人的道德判斷

So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.

這是剛才各位看的道德判斷數值

And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ

現在把TMS打到RTJP上

and ask how people's judgments change.

看看人們是否改變道德判斷

And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.

結果發現，人還是可以做判斷作業

So their judgments of the case when everything was fine

沒發生問題的話，判斷不變

remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.

他們認為葛瑞絲不用負責

But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,

但在企圖傷害未遂的情況下

where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,

就是葛瑞絲認為那是毒藥，但實際上是糖粉

people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame

受測者現在覺得比較沒關係

for putting the powder in the coffee.

葛瑞絲不用為放粉末到咖啡裡負很大的責任

And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,

至於意外狀況，也就是葛瑞絲以為那是糖粉

but it was really poison and so she caused a death,

但卻是毒藥，因而害死朋友

people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.

人們比較不能接受，認為她要負責

So what I've told you today is that

總而言之，今天我所說的就是

people come, actually, especially well equipped

我們其實天生資質很好

to think about other people's thoughts.

有能力思考他人的想法

We have a special brain system

我們有特別的腦部系統

that lets us think about what other people are thinking.

讓我們思考別人在想些什麼

This system takes a long time to develop,

這個系統要花很長的時間成熟

slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.

要經過整個童年和青春期早期

And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region

而成年以後，腦部的差異

can explain differences among adults

會影響成人思考

in how we think about and judge other people.

造成不同的判斷

But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,

最後我要引用演講剛開始提到那位小說家的話

and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,

菲力普羅斯在結尾處說

"The fact remains that getting people right

"其實理解別人

is not what living is all about anyway.

根本不是生活的重心

It's getting them wrong that is living.

誤解別人才是生活重心

Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,

一而再，再而三地誤解別人

and then on careful reconsideration,

然後重新仔細思考

getting them wrong again."

再繼續誤解對方＂

Thank you.

謝謝各位

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using

你剛剛提到

magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,

要用磁脈衝改變人的道德判斷

that sounds alarming.

那聽起來真恐怖

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.

你應該沒有接到國防部之類打來的電話吧?

RS: I'm not.

我沒有接到

I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.

我是說，他們有打來，不過我沒接

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

CA: They really are calling?

他們真的有打啊？

So then seriously,

好了，說真的

you must lie awake at night sometimes

你一定曾經半夜睡不著

wondering where this work leads.

想著這種研究會對未來造什麼影響

I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,

我是說，你非常了不起

but someone could take this knowledge

但有些人可能利用這種知識

and in some future

在未來某一天做某些事

not-torture chamber,

當然不至於是酷刑虐待

do acts that people here might be worried about.

但可能是某些令我們擔憂的事

RS: Yeah, we worry about this.

沒錯，我們也很擔心

So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.

關於TMS有幾點要說明

One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.

首先你接受TMS時，自己一定會知道

So it's not a surreptitious technology.

這不是什麼暗中進行的神祕科技

It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.

還有，想稍微改變判斷其實不容易

The changes I showed you are impressive to me

我給你們看的改變對我而言很了不起

because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,

因為我們知道大腦的功能

but they're small on the scale

但其實改變幅度很小

of the moral judgments that we actually make.

我們沒有讓道德判斷產生多大改變

And what we changed was not people's

而且我們不是真的讓人改變主意

moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,

改變他們的決定

when they're making action choices.

改變他們的行為

We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.

我們改變的只是他們判斷其他人行為的能力

And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as

所以我覺得

studying the defendant in a criminal trial,

我們比較不像在研究刑事案件裡的被告

but studying the jury.

比較像在研究陪審團

CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations

你的研究可以帶來教育方面的建議嗎？

in education, to perhaps bring up

像是讓小孩長大以後

a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?

能做更公正的判斷？

RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.

有可能，那很不錯

The whole research program here of studying

這整個研究計畫

the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.

研究人類大腦獨特之處，是全新的概念

Until recently, what we knew about the brain

直到最近我們對腦的認識

were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,

還是侷限在其他動物也有的功能

so we could study it in animal models.

所以我們才能從動物研究推測人腦功能

We knew how brains see, and how they control the body

我們知道大腦的視覺功能，怎麼控制身體

and how they hear and sense.

還有聽覺與觸覺功能

And the whole project of understanding

而這整個計畫

how brains do the uniquely human things --

了解大腦如何進行人類獨特功能

learn language and abstract concepts,

例如語言學習、抽象思考

and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.

還有思考他人的想法，是全新的研究領域

And we don't know yet what the implications will be

因此目前我們還不清楚

of understanding it.

了解這些會帶來什麼衝擊

CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called

最後一個問題

the hard problem of consciousness,

意識的困難問題

that puzzles a lot of people.

困擾許多人

The notion that you can understand

它是說你可以了解大腦怎麼運作

why a brain works, perhaps.

讓你產生主觀感受，大致是這樣

But why does anyone have to feel anything?

但是為什麼我們要有主觀感受？

Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things

為什麼我們要感受事物

for us to operate?

才能當一個"人"?

You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.

你是年輕有為的認知神經學者

I mean, what chances do you think there are

你覺得有沒有可能

that at some time in your career,

在你職業生涯某一天

someone, you or someone else,

某個人，你或其他人

is going to come up with some paradigm shift

能轉移典範，提出劃時代的觀點

in understanding what seems an impossible problem?

讓我們了解這個看來無解的問題？

RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.

我希望他們做得到，但我覺得他們大概沒辦法

CA: Why?

為什麼？

RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.

就是因為這樣所以才叫困難問題

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.

答得好，蕾貝嘉薩克斯，謝謝妳，說得太好了

(Applause)

(掌聲)