How we read each other's minds | Rebecca Saxe

560,652 views ・ 2009-09-11

TED


Dvaput kliknite na engleske titlove ispod za reprodukciju videozapisa.

Prevoditelj: Davorin Jelačić Recezent: Mislav Ante Omazić - EFZG
00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
0
12160
3000
Danas ću govoriti o problemu drugih umova.
00:15
And the problem I'm going to talk about
1
15160
2000
Taj problem nije
00:17
is not the familiar one from philosophy,
2
17160
3000
onaj poznati iz filozofije,
00:20
which is, "How can we know
3
20160
2000
koji glasi: „Kako možemo znati
00:22
whether other people have minds?"
4
22160
2000
imaju li drugi ljudi um?"
00:24
That is, maybe you have a mind,
5
24160
2000
Odnosno, možda vi imate um,
00:26
and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
6
26160
3000
a svi drugi su samo uvjerljivi roboti.
00:29
So that's a problem in philosophy,
7
29160
2000
To je filozofski problem.
00:31
but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
8
31160
2000
No, za naše današnje potrebe pretpostavit ću
00:33
that many people in this audience have a mind,
9
33160
2000
da mnogi u publici imaju um,
00:35
and that I don't have to worry about this.
10
35160
2000
i da se ne moram brinuti oko toga.
00:37
There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
11
37160
3000
Postoji i drugi problem koji nam je možda još bliži
00:40
as parents and teachers and spouses
12
40160
3000
kao roditeljima, učiteljima, supružnicima,
00:43
and novelists,
13
43160
2000
i romanopiscima.
00:45
which is, "Why is it so hard
14
45160
2000
A taj je: „Zašto je tako teško
00:47
to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
15
47160
2000
znati što netko drugi želi ili u što vjeruje?"
00:49
Or perhaps, more relevantly,
16
49160
2000
Ili, možda, još važnije,
00:51
"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
17
51160
3000
"Zašto je tako teško promijeniti ono što netko želi ili vjeruje?"
00:54
I think novelists put this best.
18
54160
2000
Mislim da to pisci najbolje prikazuju.
00:56
Like Philip Roth, who said,
19
56160
2000
Poput Philipa Rotha, koji je rekao,
00:58
"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
20
58160
3000
"Pa ipak, što ćemo poduzeti u vezi tog strašno važnog pitanja -
01:01
of other people?
21
61160
2000
drugih ljudi?
01:03
So ill equipped are we all,
22
63160
2000
Vrlo smo loše opremljeni
01:05
to envision one another's interior workings
23
65160
2000
za uvid u unutarnja razmišljanja drugih
01:07
and invisible aims."
24
67160
2000
i njihove nevidljive ciljeve."
01:09
So as a teacher and as a spouse,
25
69160
3000
Kao učiteljica i supruga,
01:12
this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
26
72160
2000
s tim se problemom, naravno, srećem svakodnevno.
01:14
But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
27
74160
3000
No, kao znanstvenicu zanima me drugi problem u vezi s umovima drugih,
01:17
and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
28
77160
3000
i to je onaj koji ću vam danas predstaviti.
01:20
And that problem is, "How is it so easy
29
80160
2000
Taj problem je: "Kako je tako lako
01:22
to know other minds?"
30
82160
2000
upoznati umove drugih?"
01:24
So to start with an illustration,
31
84160
2000
Počnimo s ilustracijom:
01:26
you need almost no information,
32
86160
2000
gotovo da vam uopće ne trebaju informacije,
01:28
one snapshot of a stranger,
33
88160
2000
kratak pogled na strankinju,
01:30
to guess what this woman is thinking,
34
90160
2000
i možete pogoditi što ova žena misli,
01:32
or what this man is.
35
92160
3000
ili što je ovaj čovjek.
01:35
And put another way, the crux of the problem is
36
95160
2000
Drugim riječima, suština problema je ta
01:37
the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
37
97160
3000
da se stroj pomoću kojega razmišljamo o drugim umovima,
01:40
our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
38
100160
3000
naš mozak, sastoji od dijelova, moždanih stanica,
01:43
that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
39
103160
2000
koje dijelimo sa svim drugim životinjama, majmunima,
01:45
and mice and even sea slugs.
40
105160
3000
miševima, pa čak i morskim puževima.
01:48
And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
41
108160
3000
A opet, povežite ih u specifičnu mrežu,
01:51
and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
42
111160
3000
i dobijete kapacitet za stvaranje Romea i Julije.
01:54
Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
43
114160
2000
Ili za reći, kao Alan Greenspan,
01:56
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
44
116160
3000
"Znam da mislite kako razumijete što ste mislili da sam rekao,
01:59
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
45
119160
2000
ali nisam siguran kako shvaćate da ono što ste čuli
02:01
is not what I meant."
46
121160
2000
nije ono što sam mislio."
02:03
(Laughter)
47
123160
3000
(Smijeh)
02:06
So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
48
126160
2000
Moje područje kognitivnih neuroznanosti se bavi time
02:08
is to stand with these ideas,
49
128160
2000
da stoji s tim idejama,
02:10
one in each hand.
50
130160
2000
po jedna u svakoj ruci.
02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
51
132160
3000
I pokušava shvatiti kako možete sklopiti
02:15
simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
52
135160
4000
jednostavne jedinice, jednostavne poruke kroz prostor i vrijeme, u mrežu,
02:19
and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
53
139160
4000
i dobiti taj zapanjujući ljudski kapacitet za razmišljanje o drugim umovima.
02:23
So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
54
143160
3000
Reći ću vam tri stvari o ovome danas.
02:26
Obviously the whole project here is huge.
55
146160
3000
Cijeli ovaj projekt je očito ogroman.
02:29
And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
56
149160
3000
I govorit ću samo o nekoliko prvih koraka
02:32
about the discovery of a special brain region
57
152160
2000
u otkrivanju specijalne regije mozga
02:34
for thinking about other people's thoughts.
58
154160
2000
koja služi za razmišljanje o tuđim mislima.
02:36
Some observations on the slow development of this system
59
156160
2000
Nekoliko opažanja o sporom razvoju ovog sustava
02:38
as we learn how to do this difficult job.
60
158160
4000
dok učimo kako obaviti taj težak posao.
02:42
And then finally, to show that some of the differences
61
162160
2000
I zatim, napokon, pokazat ću da se neke razlike
02:44
between people, in how we judge others,
62
164160
3000
među ljudima, to kako procjenjujemo druge,
02:47
can be explained by differences in this brain system.
63
167160
4000
mogu objasniti razlikama u tom sustavu mozga.
02:51
So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
64
171160
2000
Prva stvar koju vam želim reći je ta
02:53
there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
65
173160
3000
da postoji područje u ljudskom mozgu, vašem mozgu,
02:56
whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
66
176160
3000
čiji je zadatak razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
02:59
This is a picture of it.
67
179160
2000
Evo prikaza.
03:01
It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
68
181160
2000
Zove se desni privremeno-parijetalni čvor (RTPJ).
03:03
It's above and behind your right ear.
69
183160
2000
Nalazi se iznad i iza vašeg desnog uha.
03:05
And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
70
185160
2000
A ovo je područje mozga koje ste koristili kad ste vidjeli slike koje sam vam pokazala,
03:07
or when you read Romeo and Juliet
71
187160
2000
ili dok ste čitali Romea i Juliju,
03:09
or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
72
189160
3000
ili dok ste pokušavali razumjeti Alana Greenspana.
03:12
And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
73
192160
4000
To područje ne koristite za rješavanje drugih logičkih problema.
03:16
So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
74
196160
3000
Dakle, ta regija mozga zove se RTPJ.
03:19
And this picture shows the average activation
75
199160
2000
A ova slika prikazuje prosječnu aktivaciju
03:21
in a group of what we call typical human adults.
76
201160
2000
kod skupine koju nazivamo tipične odrasle osobe.
03:23
They're MIT undergraduates.
77
203160
2000
Oni su studenti MIT-a.
03:25
(Laughter)
78
205160
4000
(Smijeh)
03:29
The second thing I want to say about this brain system
79
209160
2000
Drugo što želim reći o ovom sustavu mozga
03:31
is that although we human adults
80
211160
2000
je da, premda smo mi, odrasli ljudi
03:33
are really good at understanding other minds,
81
213160
2000
vrlo dobri u razumijevanju drugih umova,
03:35
we weren't always that way.
82
215160
2000
nismo uvijek bili takvi.
03:37
It takes children a long time to break into the system.
83
217160
3000
Djeci treba dugo vremena da usvoje taj sustav.
03:40
I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
84
220160
4000
Pokazat ću vam malo tog dugog, razvučenog procesa.
03:44
The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
85
224160
3000
Prvo što ću vam pokazati je promjena u dobi od treće do pete godine,
03:47
as kids learn to understand
86
227160
2000
kada djeca uče razumjeti
03:49
that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
87
229160
3000
da drugi ljudi mogu imati uvjerenja koja se razlikuju od njihovih.
03:52
So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
88
232160
2000
Pa ću vam pokazati petogodišnje dijete
03:54
who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
89
234160
2000
koje dobiva standardnu zagonetku
03:56
that we call the false belief task.
90
236160
3000
koju nazivamo zadatak pogrešnog vjerovanja.
03:59
Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
91
239160
3000
Video: Ovo je prvi pirat. Njegovo ime je Ivan.
04:02
And you know what pirates really like?
92
242160
2000
A znaš što pirati stvarno vole?
04:04
Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
93
244160
3000
Pirati stvarno vole sendviče sa sirom.
04:07
Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
94
247160
3000
Dijete: Sir? Ja volim sir!
04:10
RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
95
250160
2000
R.S.: Da. Pa tako Ivan ima sendvič sa sirom.
04:12
and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
96
252160
2000
i kaže "Njam njam njam njam njam!"
04:14
I really love cheese sandwiches."
97
254160
2000
Jako volim sendviče sa sirom."
04:16
And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
98
256160
4000
I Ivan stavlja svoj sendvič ovdje, na vrh piratske škrinje.
04:20
And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
99
260160
4000
I Ivan kaže, "Znaš što? Treba mi piće uz ručak."
04:24
And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
100
264160
3000
I Ivan ode po piće.
04:27
And while Ivan is away
101
267160
2000
I dok Ivana nema
04:29
the wind comes,
102
269160
3000
zapuše vjetar,
04:32
and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
103
272160
2000
i sruši sendvič sa škrinje na travu.
04:34
And now, here comes the other pirate.
104
274160
4000
I sad dolazi drugi pirat.
04:38
This pirate is called Joshua.
105
278160
3000
Ovaj pirat se zove Joshua.
04:41
And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
106
281160
2000
Joshua također jako voli sendviče sa sirom.
04:43
So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
107
283160
2000
Pa Joshua ima sendvič sa sirom i kaže,
04:45
"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
108
285160
4000
"Njam njam njam njam njam! Volim sendviče sa sirom."
04:49
And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
109
289160
3000
I stavlja svoj sendvič sa sirom na vrh piratske škrinje.
04:52
Child: So, that one is his.
110
292160
2000
Dijete: O, to je znači njegov.
04:54
RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
111
294160
2000
R.S.: To je Joshuin. Tako je.
04:56
Child: And then his went on the ground.
112
296160
2000
Dijete: A tada je njegov pao na zemlju.
04:58
RS: That's exactly right.
113
298160
2000
R.S.: Baš tako.
05:00
Child: So he won't know which one is his.
114
300160
2000
Dijete: I on neće znati koji je njegov.
05:02
RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
115
302160
3000
R.S.: Oo. Sad Joshua odlazi nabaviti piće.
05:05
Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
116
305160
4000
Ivan se vraća i kaže, "Hoću svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:09
So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
117
309160
3000
Pa što misliš, koji će sendvič Ivan uzeti?
05:12
Child: I think he is going to take that one.
118
312160
2000
Dijete: Mislim da će uzeti ovaj.
05:14
RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
119
314160
2000
R.S.: Da, misliš da će uzeti ovaj? Dobro. Hajdemo vidjeti.
05:16
Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
120
316160
3000
O da, bio si u pravu. Uzeo je taj.
05:19
So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
121
319160
2000
Eto, imate petogodišnjaka koji jasno razumije
05:21
that other people can have false beliefs
122
321160
2000
da drugi ljudi mogu imati pogrešna uvjerenja
05:23
and what the consequences are for their actions.
123
323160
2000
i koje su posljedice njihovih djela.
05:25
Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
124
325160
3000
A sada ćete vidjeti trogodišnjaka
05:28
who got the same puzzle.
125
328160
2000
koji je dobio istu zagonetku.
05:30
RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
126
330160
2000
Video: R.S.: I Ivan kaže, „Želim svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:32
Which sandwich is he going to take?
127
332160
3000
Koji sendvič će uzeti?
05:35
Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
128
335160
2000
Misliš da će uzeti taj? Pogledajmo što će biti.
05:37
Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
129
337160
2000
Pogledajmo što će učiniti. Dolazi Ivan.
05:39
And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
130
339160
3000
Kaže, "Želim svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:42
And he takes this one.
131
342160
2000
I uzima ovaj.
05:44
Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
132
344160
3000
O-o. Zašto je uzeo ovaj?
05:47
Child: His was on the grass.
133
347160
4000
Dijete: Njegov je bio na travi.
05:51
So the three-year-old does two things differently.
134
351160
3000
R.S. Trogodišnjak dvije stvari radi različito.
05:54
First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
135
354160
3000
Prvo predviđa da će Ivan uzeti sendvič
05:57
that's really his.
136
357160
2000
koji je stvarno njegov.
05:59
And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
137
359160
4000
A drugo, kad vidi Ivana da uzima sendvič s mjesta gdje je ostavio svoj,
06:03
where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
138
363160
3000
kad bismo mi rekli da uzima taj jer misli da je njegov,
06:06
the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
139
366160
3000
trogodišnjak ima drugo objašnjenje.
06:09
He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
140
369160
2000
Pirat neće uzeti svoj sendvič zato što ga ne želi,
06:11
because now it's dirty, on the ground.
141
371160
2000
zato što je taj sendvič sada prljav, na zemlji.
06:13
So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
142
373160
2000
Pa zato uzima drugi sendvič.
06:15
Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
143
375160
4000
Naravno, razvoj ne staje u petoj godini.
06:19
And we can see the continuation of this process
144
379160
2000
Pa nastavak ovog procesa učenja
06:21
of learning to think about other people's thoughts
145
381160
2000
o tome kako razmišljati o tuđim mislima
06:23
by upping the ante
146
383160
2000
vidimo kad odemo korak dalje
06:25
and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
147
385160
3000
i ne tražimo od djece da predvide akciju,
06:28
but for a moral judgment.
148
388160
2000
već ih pitamo za moralnu prosudbu.
06:30
So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
149
390160
2000
Prvo ću vam opet pokazati trogodišnjaka.
06:32
RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
150
392160
3000
Video: R.S.: Je li Ivan zao i zločest zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
06:35
Child: Yeah.
151
395160
1000
Dijete: Da.
06:36
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
152
396160
3000
R.S.: Bi li Ivan trebao dobiti kaznu zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
06:39
Child: Yeah.
153
399160
2000
Dijete: Da.
06:41
So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
154
401160
2000
R.S.: Možda nije iznenađujuće što on misli da je zločesto od Ivana
06:43
to take Joshua's sandwich,
155
403160
2000
što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič.
06:45
since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
156
405160
2000
Zato što on misli da je Ivan uzeo Joshuin sendvič
06:47
to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
157
407160
3000
samo zato da izbjegne jesti svoj prljavi sendvič.
06:50
But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
158
410160
2000
Ali sada ćete vidjeti petogodišnjaka.
06:52
Remember the five-year-old completely understood
159
412160
2000
Sjetite se da je petogodišnjak potpuno shvatio
06:54
why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
160
414160
2000
zašto je Ivan uzeo Joshuin sendvič.
06:56
RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
161
416160
2000
Video: R.S.: Je li Ivan zao i zločest
06:58
for taking Joshua's sandwich?
162
418160
2000
zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
07:00
Child: Um, yeah.
163
420160
2000
Dijete: Mm, da.
07:02
And so, it is not until age seven
164
422160
2000
R.S.: I tako, prije dobi od sedam godina
07:04
that we get what looks more like an adult response.
165
424160
3000
nećemo dobiti nešto što bi sličilo na odgovor odrasle osobe.
07:07
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
166
427160
3000
Video: R.S.: Hoće li Ivan biti u nevolji zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
07:10
Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
167
430160
2000
Dijete: Ne, vjetar treba biti u nevolji.
07:12
He says the wind should get in trouble
168
432160
3000
R.S. On kaže da vjetar treba biti u nevolji
07:15
for switching the sandwiches.
169
435160
2000
jer je zamijenio sendviče.
07:17
(Laughter)
170
437160
2000
(Smijeh)
07:19
And now what we've started to do in my lab
171
439160
2000
Ono što smo počeli raditi u mojem laboratoriju
07:21
is to put children into the brain scanner
172
441160
2000
je da stavljamo djecu u skener mozga
07:23
and ask what's going on in their brain
173
443160
3000
i pitamo se što se događa u njihovom mozgu
07:26
as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
174
446160
3000
dok razvijaju tu sposobnost razmišljanja o mislima drugih.
07:29
So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
175
449160
4000
Prva stvar je da vidimo da djeca koriste isto područje mozga, RTPJ,
07:33
being used while children are thinking about other people.
176
453160
3000
dok razmišljaju o drugim ljudima.
07:36
But it's not quite like the adult brain.
177
456160
2000
Ali nije potpuno isto kao u odraslom mozgu.
07:38
So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
178
458160
2000
Kod odraslih, kako sam vam rekla,
07:40
this brain region is almost completely specialized --
179
460160
3000
ta regija mozga je skoro potpuno specijalizirana.
07:43
it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
180
463160
3000
Ne radi skoro ništa drugo, samo razmišlja o mislima drugih ljudi.
07:46
in children it's much less so,
181
466160
2000
Kod djece je to puno manje slučaj,
07:48
when they are age five to eight,
182
468160
2000
u dobi od pet do osam godina,
07:50
the age range of the children I just showed you.
183
470160
2000
starosna dob koju sam vam upravo pokazala.
07:52
And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
184
472160
3000
Čak i ako promatramo dob od osam do 11 godina,
07:55
getting into early adolescence,
185
475160
2000
ulazak u rani pubertet,
07:57
they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
186
477160
3000
djeca još uvijek nemaju to područje mozga sasvim kao odrasli.
08:00
And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
187
480160
3000
Ono što vidimo je da se tijekom djetinjstva,
08:03
and even into adolescence,
188
483160
2000
pa čak i ulaskom u pubertet,
08:05
both the cognitive system,
189
485160
2000
kako oboje, kognitivni sustav,
08:07
our mind's ability to think about other minds,
190
487160
2000
sposobnost našeg mozga da razmišlja o mislima drugih,
08:09
and the brain system that supports it
191
489160
2000
i sustav mozga koji mu pruža podršku,
08:11
are continuing, slowly, to develop.
192
491160
3000
polako nastavljaju razvijati.
08:14
But of course, as you're probably aware,
193
494160
2000
Naravno, kao što ste vjerojatno svjesni,
08:16
even in adulthood,
194
496160
2000
čak i odrasli ljudi
08:18
people differ from one another in how good they are
195
498160
2000
se međusobno razlikuju po tome koliko su dobri
08:20
at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
196
500160
2000
u razmišljanju o umu drugih, koliko to često čine,
08:22
and how accurately.
197
502160
2000
i koliko točno.
08:24
And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
198
504160
3000
Ono što smo mi željeli znati je mogu li se razlike među odraslima,
08:27
in how they think about other people's thoughts
199
507160
2000
u tome kako razmišljaju o mislima drugih
08:29
be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
200
509160
3000
objasniti pomoću razlika u ovom području mozga.
08:32
So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
201
512160
3000
Prvo što smo napravili je da smo dali odraslima
08:35
of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
202
515160
2000
verziju piratskog problema kojeg su bila dobila i djeca.
08:37
And I'm going to give that to you now.
203
517160
2000
Sada ću vam to pokazati.
08:39
So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
204
519160
3000
Grace i njezina prijateljica su u obilasku tvornice kemikalija
08:42
and they take a break for coffee.
205
522160
2000
i naprave pauzu za kavu.
08:44
And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
206
524160
3000
Graceina prijateljica traži šećer za svoju kavu.
08:47
Grace goes to make the coffee
207
527160
3000
Grace ide napraviti kavu
08:50
and finds by the coffee a pot
208
530160
2000
i kraj kave nađe posudu
08:52
containing a white powder, which is sugar.
209
532160
3000
s bijelim prahom, šećerom.
08:55
But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
210
535160
3000
Ali na posudi piše „Smrtonosni otrov“.
08:58
so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
211
538160
3000
Pa Grace misli kako je taj prah smrtonosni otrov.
09:01
And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
212
541160
2000
I stavlja taj prah prijateljici u kavu.
09:03
And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
213
543160
3000
Njezina prijateljica popije kavu, i dobro je.
09:06
How many people think it was morally permissible
214
546160
2000
Koliko vas misli da je moralno dopustivo
09:08
for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
215
548160
4000
da Grace stavi taj prah u kavu?
09:12
Okay. Good. (Laughter)
216
552160
3000
OK. Dobro. (Smijeh)
09:15
So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
217
555160
3000
Pa pitamo ljude koliko je Grace kriva
09:18
in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
218
558160
2000
u ovom slučaju, kojeg nazivamo neuspjelim pokušajem povrede.
09:20
And we can compare that to another case,
219
560160
2000
I to možemo usporediti s drugim slučajem
09:22
where everything in the real world is the same.
220
562160
2000
u kojem je sve u stvarnom svijetu isto.
09:24
The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
221
564160
3000
Prah je isto šećer, ali je drugačije ono što Grace misli.
09:27
Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
222
567160
3000
Sada ona misli da je prah šećer.
09:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
223
570160
3000
I, možda očekivano, ako Grace misli da je prah šećer
09:33
and puts it in her friend's coffee,
224
573160
2000
i stavi ga prijateljici u kavu,
09:35
people say she deserves no blame at all.
225
575160
2000
ljudi kažu da je ne treba ništa kriviti.
09:37
Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
226
577160
4000
Dok, ako je mislila da je prah otrov, premda je zapravo šećer,
09:41
now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
227
581160
3000
ljudi misle da je silno kriva,
09:44
even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
228
584160
3000
premda je ono što se dogodilo u stvarnom svijetu jednako.
09:47
And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
229
587160
2000
Zapravo, ljudi kažu da je ona više kriva
09:49
in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
230
589160
2000
u ovom slučaju, neuspjelom pokušaju povrede,
09:51
than in another case,
231
591160
2000
nego u drugom slučaju,
09:53
which we call an accident.
232
593160
2000
kojega zovemo slučajna nezgoda.
09:55
Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
233
595160
2000
U kojem Grace misli da je prah šećer,
09:57
because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
234
597160
2000
jer je na njemu pisalo „šećer“ i nalazio se kraj aparata za kavu,
09:59
but actually the powder was poison.
235
599160
2000
ali je taj prah, u stvari, bio otrov.
10:01
So even though when the powder was poison,
236
601160
3000
Dakle, čak i ako je prah bio otrov,
10:04
the friend drank the coffee and died,
237
604160
3000
prijateljica ga je popila i umrla,
10:07
people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
238
607160
3000
ljudi kažu da Grace nije toliko kriva
10:10
when she innocently thought it was sugar,
239
610160
2000
kad je nedužno mislila da je riječ o šećeru,
10:12
than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
240
612160
2000
kao u drugom slučaju, kada je mislila kako je riječ o otrovu,
10:14
and no harm occurred.
241
614160
3000
premda se nije dogodilo ništa loše.
10:17
People, though, disagree a little bit
242
617160
2000
Ipak, ljudi se malo razlikuju
10:19
about exactly how much blame Grace should get
243
619160
2000
u mišljenju koliko je krivice na Grace
10:21
in the accident case.
244
621160
2000
u slučaju nezgode.
10:23
Some people think she should deserve more blame,
245
623160
2000
Neki misle kako je više kriva,
10:25
and other people less.
246
625160
2000
a neki da je manje kriva.
10:27
And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
247
627160
2000
Sada ću vam pokazati što se događa unutar
10:29
the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
248
629160
2000
mozg kada ljudi donose tu prosudbu.
10:31
So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
249
631160
2000
Ono što vam pokazujem, s lijeva na desno,
10:33
is how much activity there was in this brain region,
250
633160
3000
je koliko je aktivnosti bilo u tom području mozga.
10:36
and from top to bottom, how much blame
251
636160
2000
A odozgo prema dolje vidite koliko krivice
10:38
people said that Grace deserved.
252
638160
2000
ljudi kažu da je Grace zaslužila.
10:40
And what you can see is, on the left
253
640160
2000
Na lijevoj strani vidite
10:42
when there was very little activity in this brain region,
254
642160
2000
da kad je bilo malo aktivnosti u tom području mozga,
10:44
people paid little attention to her innocent belief
255
644160
3000
ljudi su vrlo malo pažnje posvetili njezinom nedužnom vjerovanju
10:47
and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
256
647160
3000
i rekli su da ona snosi puno krivice.
10:50
Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
257
650160
2000
Dok su na desnoj strani, kad je bilo puno moždane aktivnosti,
10:52
people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
258
652160
3000
ljudi posvetili puno pažnje njezinom nedužnom vjerovanju,
10:55
and said she deserved a lot less blame
259
655160
2000
i rekli kako snosi manje krivice
10:57
for causing the accident.
260
657160
2000
za to što je prouzročila nesreću.
10:59
So that's good, but of course
261
659160
2000
To je dobro,
11:01
what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
262
661160
2000
ali mi bismo radije pronašli način da utječemo
11:03
with function in this brain region,
263
663160
2000
na funkcioniranje tog područja u mozgu,
11:05
and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
264
665160
3000
i vidjeti možemo li promijeniti moralne prosudbe ljudi.
11:08
And we do have such a tool.
265
668160
2000
Imamo alat za to.
11:10
It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
266
670160
2000
Zovemo ga Transkranijalna magnetska stimulacija,
11:12
or TMS.
267
672160
2000
ili TMS.
11:14
This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
268
674160
2000
To nam oruđe omogućava da pustimo magnetski puls
11:16
through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
269
676160
4000
kroz nečiju lubanju, u malo područje mozga,
11:20
and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
270
680160
4000
i privremeno poremetimo funkcioniranje neurona u tom području.
11:24
So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
271
684160
2000
Sada ću vam to demonstrirati.
11:26
First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
272
686160
3000
Prvo ću vam pokazati da je to magnetski puls,
11:29
I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
273
689160
3000
pokazat ću što se događa kad stavite kovanicu na uređaj.
11:32
When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
274
692160
4000
Kad začujete klikanje, uređaj se uključuje.
11:42
So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
275
702160
3000
A sada ću taj puls primijeniti na svoj mozak,
11:45
to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
276
705160
2000
na dio mozga koji upravlja mojom rukom.
11:47
So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
277
707160
3000
Dakle, nema fizičke sile, samo magnetna.
11:54
Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
278
714160
2000
Video: Žena: Spremna? Rebecca Saxe: Da.
11:57
Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
279
717160
3000
OK, dakle, došlo je do malog spontanog grčenja moje ruke
12:00
by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
280
720160
3000
uslijed magnetskog pulsa u mojem mozgu.
12:03
And we can use that same pulse,
281
723160
2000
Možemo koristiti isti taj puls,
12:05
now applied to the RTPJ,
282
725160
2000
primijeniti ga na područje RTPJ,
12:07
to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
283
727160
3000
kako bismo vidjeli možemo li promijeniti moralne prosudbe ljudi.
12:10
So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
284
730160
2000
Ovo su prosudbe koje sam vam već pokazala, normalne ljudske prosudbe.
12:12
And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
285
732160
3000
A zatim ćemo primijeniti TMS na RTPJ
12:15
and ask how people's judgments change.
286
735160
2000
i upitati se kako se prosudbe mijenjaju.
12:17
And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
287
737160
4000
Prvo, ljudi i dalje mogu općenito obaviti zadatak.
12:21
So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
288
741160
2000
Njihove prosudbe u slučaju u kojem je sve u redu
12:23
remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
289
743160
3000
ostaju iste. Kažu da ona nije kriva.
12:26
But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
290
746160
4000
Ali u slučaju neuspjelog pokušaja povrede,
12:30
where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
291
750160
3000
kad je Grace mislila da je riječ o otrovu, a bio je šećer,
12:33
people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
292
753160
3000
ljudi sada kažu da je prihvatljivije, manje je kriva
12:36
for putting the powder in the coffee.
293
756160
3000
što je stavila prah u šalicu.
12:39
And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
294
759160
2000
A u slučaju nezgode kada je mislila da je šećer,
12:41
but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
295
761160
3000
ali je zapravo bio otrov, pa je ona prouzročila smrt,
12:44
people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
296
764160
6000
ljudi kažu da nije toliko prihvatljivo, da je na njoj veća krivica.
12:50
So what I've told you today is that
297
770160
2000
Ono što sam vam danas rekla je
12:52
people come, actually, especially well equipped
298
772160
4000
da su ljudi, zapravo, sasvim dobro opremljeni
12:56
to think about other people's thoughts.
299
776160
2000
za razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
12:58
We have a special brain system
300
778160
2000
Imamo poseban sustav u mozgu
13:00
that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
301
780160
3000
koji nam omogućava razmišljati o mislima drugih.
13:03
This system takes a long time to develop,
302
783160
2000
Taj sustav se razvija dugo vremena,
13:05
slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
303
785160
3000
polako tijekom djetinjstva, sve do ranog puberteta.
13:08
And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
304
788160
3000
A čak i kod odraslih razlike u ovom području mozga
13:11
can explain differences among adults
305
791160
2000
mogu objasniti razlike među ljudima
13:13
in how we think about and judge other people.
306
793160
3000
u pogledu toga kako razmišljamo i sudimo o drugima.
13:16
But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
307
796160
3000
Ali završnu riječ želim prepustiti romanopiscima.
13:19
and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
308
799160
3000
I Philipu Rothu, koji je završio rekavši,
13:22
"The fact remains that getting people right
309
802160
2000
"Ostaje činjenica da točno shvatiti ljude
13:24
is not what living is all about anyway.
310
804160
2000
ionako nije suština života.
13:26
It's getting them wrong that is living.
311
806160
2000
Život čini ono kad ljude razumijemo pogrešno.
13:28
Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
312
808160
3000
Shvaćamo ih krivo i krivo i krivo,
13:31
and then on careful reconsideration,
313
811160
2000
a zatim, nakon pažljivog razmatranja,
13:33
getting them wrong again."
314
813160
2000
shvatimo ih krivo ponovno."
13:35
Thank you.
315
815160
2000
Hvala vam.
13:37
(Applause)
316
817160
10000
(Pljesak)
13:47
Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
317
827160
2000
Chris Anderson: Kad počnete pričati o korištenju
13:49
magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
318
829160
3000
magnetskog pulsa radi mijenjanja moralnih prosudbi,
13:52
that sounds alarming.
319
832160
3000
to zvuči alarmantno.
13:55
(Laughter)
320
835160
1000
(Smijeh)
13:56
Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
321
836160
4000
Molim vas, recite mi da se ne javljate na pozive iz Pentagona, recimo.
14:00
RS: I'm not.
322
840160
2000
Rebecca Saxe: Ne.
14:02
I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
323
842160
3000
Mislim, zovu oni, ali se ne javljam.
14:05
(Laughter)
324
845160
1000
(Smijeh)
14:06
CA: They really are calling?
325
846160
2000
C.A.: Stvarno zovu?
14:08
So then seriously,
326
848160
3000
No, ozbiljno, ozbiljno,
14:11
you must lie awake at night sometimes
327
851160
3000
mora da katkada noću ležite budni
14:14
wondering where this work leads.
328
854160
2000
i pitate se gdje ovaj rad vodi.
14:16
I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
329
856160
2000
Mislim, vi ste očito sjajna osoba.
14:18
but someone could take this knowledge
330
858160
3000
Ali netko bi mogao iskoristiti to znanje
14:21
and in some future
331
861160
2000
i u budućnosti
14:23
not-torture chamber,
332
863160
2000
ne soba za mučenje,
14:25
do acts that people here might be worried about.
333
865160
3000
raditi stvari koje bi mogle brinuti ovdje nazočne.
14:28
RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
334
868160
2000
R.S.: Da, razmišljamo o tome.
14:30
So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
335
870160
3000
Treba reći nekoliko stvari o TMS-u.
14:33
One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
336
873160
2000
Jedna je da ne možete primiti puls bez da ste svjesni toga.
14:35
So it's not a surreptitious technology.
337
875160
3000
Dakle, nije riječ o skrivenoj tehnologiji.
14:38
It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
338
878160
3000
Zapravo je sasvim teško postići ove vrlo male promjene.
14:41
The changes I showed you are impressive to me
339
881160
3000
Promjene koje sam vam pokazala su meni impresivne
14:44
because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
340
884160
2000
zbog onoga što nam govore o funkciji mozga.
14:46
but they're small on the scale
341
886160
2000
Ali su male u usporedbi
14:48
of the moral judgments that we actually make.
342
888160
2000
s moralnim prosudbama koje ljudi u stvarnosti donose.
14:50
And what we changed was not people's
343
890160
2000
A mi i nismo promijenili
14:52
moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
344
892160
3000
moralne prosudbe koje ljudi donose kad odlučuju što učiniti,
14:55
when they're making action choices.
345
895160
2000
kad donose odluke o djelovanju.
14:57
We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
346
897160
3000
Mi smo promijenili njihovu sposobnost da ocijene tuđa djela.
15:00
And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
347
900160
2000
I zato o onome što radim ne razmišljam
15:02
studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
348
902160
2000
kao o proučavanju branjenika u kaznenom postupku,
15:04
but studying the jury.
349
904160
2000
već više kao o proučavanju porote.
15:06
CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
350
906160
3000
C.A.: Hoće li vaš rad voditi nekim preporukama
15:09
in education, to perhaps bring up
351
909160
3000
za obrazovni sustav, možda odgojiti
15:12
a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
352
912160
5000
naraštaj djece sposobne za pravednije moralne prosudbe?
15:17
RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
353
917160
3000
R.S.: To je jedna od idealističnih nada.
15:20
The whole research program here of studying
354
920160
4000
Cijeli istraživački projekt, proučavanje
15:24
the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
355
924160
4000
različitih dijelova ljudskog mozga je potpuno nov.
15:28
Until recently, what we knew about the brain
356
928160
2000
Donedavno smo o mozgu znali samo ono
15:30
were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
357
930160
3000
što može raditi i mozak svake životinje.
15:33
so we could study it in animal models.
358
933160
2000
Pa smo ga mogli proučavati i na životinjama.
15:35
We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
359
935160
2000
Znali smo kako mozak vidi, kako kontrolira tijelo,
15:37
and how they hear and sense.
360
937160
2000
kako čuje i ima osjete.
15:39
And the whole project of understanding
361
939160
3000
A cijeli projekt razumijevanja
15:42
how brains do the uniquely human things --
362
942160
2000
toga kako mozak obavlja stvari jedinstvene za ljude,
15:44
learn language and abstract concepts,
363
944160
3000
uči jezik, apstraktne koncepte,
15:47
and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
364
947160
2000
i razmišlja o mislima drugih, je posve nov.
15:49
And we don't know yet what the implications will be
365
949160
2000
I ne znamo još kakve će biti
15:51
of understanding it.
366
951160
2000
implikacije toga razumijevanja.
15:53
CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
367
953160
2000
C.A.: Imam zadnje pitanje. Postoji nešto što se zove
15:55
the hard problem of consciousness,
368
955160
2000
težak problem svjesnosti,
15:57
that puzzles a lot of people.
369
957160
2000
koji mnoge zbunjuje.
15:59
The notion that you can understand
370
959160
3000
Shvaćanje da je moguće razumjeti
16:02
why a brain works, perhaps.
371
962160
2000
zašto mozak radi, možda.
16:04
But why does anyone have to feel anything?
372
964160
3000
Ali zašto bi itko morao išta osjećati?
16:07
Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
373
967160
3000
Zašto se čini da je potrebno da osjećamo
16:10
for us to operate?
374
970160
2000
da bismo funkcionirali?
16:12
You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
375
972160
3000
Vi ste briljantna mlada neuroznanstvenica.
16:15
I mean, what chances do you think there are
376
975160
2000
Kakve su šanse
16:17
that at some time in your career,
377
977160
2000
da bi u nekom trenutku vaše karijere
16:19
someone, you or someone else,
378
979160
2000
netko, vi ili netko drugi,
16:21
is going to come up with some paradigm shift
379
981160
2000
mogao doći do pomaka paradigme
16:23
in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
380
983160
4000
u razumijevanju toga što se čini kao nemoguć problem.
16:27
RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
381
987160
4000
R.S.: Nadam se da hoće. A mislim da vjerojatno neće.
16:31
CA: Why?
382
991160
3000
C.A.: Zašto?
16:34
RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
383
994160
3000
R.S.: Ne zove se to težak problem svjesnosti tek tako.
16:37
(Laughter)
384
997160
2000
(Smijeh)
16:39
CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
385
999160
3000
C.A.: Sjajan odgovor. Rebecca Saxe, hvala vam lijepa. Ovo je bilo fantastično.
16:42
(Applause)
386
1002160
4000
(Pljesak)
O ovoj web stranici

Ova stranica će vas upoznati s YouTube videozapisima koji su korisni za učenje engleskog jezika. Vidjet ćete lekcije engleskog koje vode vrhunski profesori iz cijelog svijeta. Dvaput kliknite na engleske titlove prikazane na svakoj video stranici da biste reproducirali video s tog mjesta. Titlovi se pomiču sinkronizirano s reprodukcijom videozapisa. Ako imate bilo kakvih komentara ili zahtjeva, obratite nam se putem ovog obrasca za kontakt.

https://forms.gle/WvT1wiN1qDtmnspy7