How we read each other's minds | Rebecca Saxe

561,020 views ・ 2009-09-11

TED


Dvaput kliknite na engleske titlove ispod za reprodukciju videozapisa.

Prevoditelj: Davorin Jelačić Recezent: Mislav Ante Omazić - EFZG
00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
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Danas ću govoriti o problemu drugih umova.
00:15
And the problem I'm going to talk about
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Taj problem nije
00:17
is not the familiar one from philosophy,
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onaj poznati iz filozofije,
00:20
which is, "How can we know
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koji glasi: „Kako možemo znati
00:22
whether other people have minds?"
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imaju li drugi ljudi um?"
00:24
That is, maybe you have a mind,
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Odnosno, možda vi imate um,
00:26
and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
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a svi drugi su samo uvjerljivi roboti.
00:29
So that's a problem in philosophy,
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To je filozofski problem.
00:31
but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
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No, za naše današnje potrebe pretpostavit ću
00:33
that many people in this audience have a mind,
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da mnogi u publici imaju um,
00:35
and that I don't have to worry about this.
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i da se ne moram brinuti oko toga.
00:37
There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
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Postoji i drugi problem koji nam je možda još bliži
00:40
as parents and teachers and spouses
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kao roditeljima, učiteljima, supružnicima,
00:43
and novelists,
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i romanopiscima.
00:45
which is, "Why is it so hard
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A taj je: „Zašto je tako teško
00:47
to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
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znati što netko drugi želi ili u što vjeruje?"
00:49
Or perhaps, more relevantly,
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Ili, možda, još važnije,
00:51
"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
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"Zašto je tako teško promijeniti ono što netko želi ili vjeruje?"
00:54
I think novelists put this best.
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Mislim da to pisci najbolje prikazuju.
00:56
Like Philip Roth, who said,
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Poput Philipa Rotha, koji je rekao,
00:58
"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
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"Pa ipak, što ćemo poduzeti u vezi tog strašno važnog pitanja -
01:01
of other people?
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drugih ljudi?
01:03
So ill equipped are we all,
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Vrlo smo loše opremljeni
01:05
to envision one another's interior workings
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za uvid u unutarnja razmišljanja drugih
01:07
and invisible aims."
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i njihove nevidljive ciljeve."
01:09
So as a teacher and as a spouse,
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Kao učiteljica i supruga,
01:12
this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
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s tim se problemom, naravno, srećem svakodnevno.
01:14
But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
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No, kao znanstvenicu zanima me drugi problem u vezi s umovima drugih,
01:17
and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
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i to je onaj koji ću vam danas predstaviti.
01:20
And that problem is, "How is it so easy
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Taj problem je: "Kako je tako lako
01:22
to know other minds?"
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upoznati umove drugih?"
01:24
So to start with an illustration,
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Počnimo s ilustracijom:
01:26
you need almost no information,
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gotovo da vam uopće ne trebaju informacije,
01:28
one snapshot of a stranger,
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kratak pogled na strankinju,
01:30
to guess what this woman is thinking,
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i možete pogoditi što ova žena misli,
01:32
or what this man is.
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ili što je ovaj čovjek.
01:35
And put another way, the crux of the problem is
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Drugim riječima, suština problema je ta
01:37
the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
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da se stroj pomoću kojega razmišljamo o drugim umovima,
01:40
our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
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naš mozak, sastoji od dijelova, moždanih stanica,
01:43
that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
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koje dijelimo sa svim drugim životinjama, majmunima,
01:45
and mice and even sea slugs.
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miševima, pa čak i morskim puževima.
01:48
And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
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A opet, povežite ih u specifičnu mrežu,
01:51
and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
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i dobijete kapacitet za stvaranje Romea i Julije.
01:54
Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
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Ili za reći, kao Alan Greenspan,
01:56
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
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"Znam da mislite kako razumijete što ste mislili da sam rekao,
01:59
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
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ali nisam siguran kako shvaćate da ono što ste čuli
02:01
is not what I meant."
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nije ono što sam mislio."
02:03
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
02:06
So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
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Moje područje kognitivnih neuroznanosti se bavi time
02:08
is to stand with these ideas,
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da stoji s tim idejama,
02:10
one in each hand.
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po jedna u svakoj ruci.
02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
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I pokušava shvatiti kako možete sklopiti
02:15
simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
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jednostavne jedinice, jednostavne poruke kroz prostor i vrijeme, u mrežu,
02:19
and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
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i dobiti taj zapanjujući ljudski kapacitet za razmišljanje o drugim umovima.
02:23
So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
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Reći ću vam tri stvari o ovome danas.
02:26
Obviously the whole project here is huge.
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Cijeli ovaj projekt je očito ogroman.
02:29
And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
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I govorit ću samo o nekoliko prvih koraka
02:32
about the discovery of a special brain region
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u otkrivanju specijalne regije mozga
02:34
for thinking about other people's thoughts.
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koja služi za razmišljanje o tuđim mislima.
02:36
Some observations on the slow development of this system
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Nekoliko opažanja o sporom razvoju ovog sustava
02:38
as we learn how to do this difficult job.
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dok učimo kako obaviti taj težak posao.
02:42
And then finally, to show that some of the differences
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I zatim, napokon, pokazat ću da se neke razlike
02:44
between people, in how we judge others,
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među ljudima, to kako procjenjujemo druge,
02:47
can be explained by differences in this brain system.
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mogu objasniti razlikama u tom sustavu mozga.
02:51
So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
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Prva stvar koju vam želim reći je ta
02:53
there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
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da postoji područje u ljudskom mozgu, vašem mozgu,
02:56
whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
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čiji je zadatak razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
02:59
This is a picture of it.
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Evo prikaza.
03:01
It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
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Zove se desni privremeno-parijetalni čvor (RTPJ).
03:03
It's above and behind your right ear.
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Nalazi se iznad i iza vašeg desnog uha.
03:05
And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
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A ovo je područje mozga koje ste koristili kad ste vidjeli slike koje sam vam pokazala,
03:07
or when you read Romeo and Juliet
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ili dok ste čitali Romea i Juliju,
03:09
or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
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ili dok ste pokušavali razumjeti Alana Greenspana.
03:12
And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
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To područje ne koristite za rješavanje drugih logičkih problema.
03:16
So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
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Dakle, ta regija mozga zove se RTPJ.
03:19
And this picture shows the average activation
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A ova slika prikazuje prosječnu aktivaciju
03:21
in a group of what we call typical human adults.
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kod skupine koju nazivamo tipične odrasle osobe.
03:23
They're MIT undergraduates.
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Oni su studenti MIT-a.
03:25
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
03:29
The second thing I want to say about this brain system
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Drugo što želim reći o ovom sustavu mozga
03:31
is that although we human adults
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je da, premda smo mi, odrasli ljudi
03:33
are really good at understanding other minds,
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vrlo dobri u razumijevanju drugih umova,
03:35
we weren't always that way.
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nismo uvijek bili takvi.
03:37
It takes children a long time to break into the system.
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Djeci treba dugo vremena da usvoje taj sustav.
03:40
I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
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Pokazat ću vam malo tog dugog, razvučenog procesa.
03:44
The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
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Prvo što ću vam pokazati je promjena u dobi od treće do pete godine,
03:47
as kids learn to understand
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kada djeca uče razumjeti
03:49
that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
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da drugi ljudi mogu imati uvjerenja koja se razlikuju od njihovih.
03:52
So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
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Pa ću vam pokazati petogodišnje dijete
03:54
who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
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koje dobiva standardnu zagonetku
03:56
that we call the false belief task.
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koju nazivamo zadatak pogrešnog vjerovanja.
03:59
Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
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Video: Ovo je prvi pirat. Njegovo ime je Ivan.
04:02
And you know what pirates really like?
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A znaš što pirati stvarno vole?
04:04
Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
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Pirati stvarno vole sendviče sa sirom.
04:07
Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
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Dijete: Sir? Ja volim sir!
04:10
RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
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R.S.: Da. Pa tako Ivan ima sendvič sa sirom.
04:12
and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
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i kaže "Njam njam njam njam njam!"
04:14
I really love cheese sandwiches."
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Jako volim sendviče sa sirom."
04:16
And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
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I Ivan stavlja svoj sendvič ovdje, na vrh piratske škrinje.
04:20
And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
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I Ivan kaže, "Znaš što? Treba mi piće uz ručak."
04:24
And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
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I Ivan ode po piće.
04:27
And while Ivan is away
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I dok Ivana nema
04:29
the wind comes,
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zapuše vjetar,
04:32
and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
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i sruši sendvič sa škrinje na travu.
04:34
And now, here comes the other pirate.
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I sad dolazi drugi pirat.
04:38
This pirate is called Joshua.
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Ovaj pirat se zove Joshua.
04:41
And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
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Joshua također jako voli sendviče sa sirom.
04:43
So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
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Pa Joshua ima sendvič sa sirom i kaže,
04:45
"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
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"Njam njam njam njam njam! Volim sendviče sa sirom."
04:49
And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
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I stavlja svoj sendvič sa sirom na vrh piratske škrinje.
04:52
Child: So, that one is his.
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Dijete: O, to je znači njegov.
04:54
RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
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R.S.: To je Joshuin. Tako je.
04:56
Child: And then his went on the ground.
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Dijete: A tada je njegov pao na zemlju.
04:58
RS: That's exactly right.
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R.S.: Baš tako.
05:00
Child: So he won't know which one is his.
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Dijete: I on neće znati koji je njegov.
05:02
RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
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R.S.: Oo. Sad Joshua odlazi nabaviti piće.
05:05
Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Ivan se vraća i kaže, "Hoću svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:09
So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
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Pa što misliš, koji će sendvič Ivan uzeti?
05:12
Child: I think he is going to take that one.
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Dijete: Mislim da će uzeti ovaj.
05:14
RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
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R.S.: Da, misliš da će uzeti ovaj? Dobro. Hajdemo vidjeti.
05:16
Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
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O da, bio si u pravu. Uzeo je taj.
05:19
So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
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Eto, imate petogodišnjaka koji jasno razumije
05:21
that other people can have false beliefs
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da drugi ljudi mogu imati pogrešna uvjerenja
05:23
and what the consequences are for their actions.
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i koje su posljedice njihovih djela.
05:25
Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
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A sada ćete vidjeti trogodišnjaka
05:28
who got the same puzzle.
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koji je dobio istu zagonetku.
05:30
RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Video: R.S.: I Ivan kaže, „Želim svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:32
Which sandwich is he going to take?
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Koji sendvič će uzeti?
05:35
Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
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Misliš da će uzeti taj? Pogledajmo što će biti.
05:37
Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
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Pogledajmo što će učiniti. Dolazi Ivan.
05:39
And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Kaže, "Želim svoj sendvič sa sirom."
05:42
And he takes this one.
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I uzima ovaj.
05:44
Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
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O-o. Zašto je uzeo ovaj?
05:47
Child: His was on the grass.
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Dijete: Njegov je bio na travi.
05:51
So the three-year-old does two things differently.
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R.S. Trogodišnjak dvije stvari radi različito.
05:54
First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
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Prvo predviđa da će Ivan uzeti sendvič
05:57
that's really his.
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koji je stvarno njegov.
05:59
And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
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A drugo, kad vidi Ivana da uzima sendvič s mjesta gdje je ostavio svoj,
06:03
where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
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kad bismo mi rekli da uzima taj jer misli da je njegov,
06:06
the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
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trogodišnjak ima drugo objašnjenje.
06:09
He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
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Pirat neće uzeti svoj sendvič zato što ga ne želi,
06:11
because now it's dirty, on the ground.
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zato što je taj sendvič sada prljav, na zemlji.
06:13
So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
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Pa zato uzima drugi sendvič.
06:15
Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
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Naravno, razvoj ne staje u petoj godini.
06:19
And we can see the continuation of this process
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Pa nastavak ovog procesa učenja
06:21
of learning to think about other people's thoughts
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o tome kako razmišljati o tuđim mislima
06:23
by upping the ante
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vidimo kad odemo korak dalje
06:25
and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
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i ne tražimo od djece da predvide akciju,
06:28
but for a moral judgment.
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već ih pitamo za moralnu prosudbu.
06:30
So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
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Prvo ću vam opet pokazati trogodišnjaka.
06:32
RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Video: R.S.: Je li Ivan zao i zločest zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
06:35
Child: Yeah.
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Dijete: Da.
06:36
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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R.S.: Bi li Ivan trebao dobiti kaznu zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
06:39
Child: Yeah.
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Dijete: Da.
06:41
So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
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R.S.: Možda nije iznenađujuće što on misli da je zločesto od Ivana
06:43
to take Joshua's sandwich,
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što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič.
06:45
since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
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Zato što on misli da je Ivan uzeo Joshuin sendvič
06:47
to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
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samo zato da izbjegne jesti svoj prljavi sendvič.
06:50
But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
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Ali sada ćete vidjeti petogodišnjaka.
06:52
Remember the five-year-old completely understood
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Sjetite se da je petogodišnjak potpuno shvatio
06:54
why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
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zašto je Ivan uzeo Joshuin sendvič.
06:56
RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
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Video: R.S.: Je li Ivan zao i zločest
06:58
for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
07:00
Child: Um, yeah.
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Dijete: Mm, da.
07:02
And so, it is not until age seven
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R.S.: I tako, prije dobi od sedam godina
07:04
that we get what looks more like an adult response.
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nećemo dobiti nešto što bi sličilo na odgovor odrasle osobe.
07:07
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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Video: R.S.: Hoće li Ivan biti u nevolji zato što je uzeo Joshuin sendvič?
07:10
Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
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Dijete: Ne, vjetar treba biti u nevolji.
07:12
He says the wind should get in trouble
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R.S. On kaže da vjetar treba biti u nevolji
07:15
for switching the sandwiches.
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jer je zamijenio sendviče.
07:17
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
07:19
And now what we've started to do in my lab
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Ono što smo počeli raditi u mojem laboratoriju
07:21
is to put children into the brain scanner
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je da stavljamo djecu u skener mozga
07:23
and ask what's going on in their brain
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i pitamo se što se događa u njihovom mozgu
07:26
as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
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dok razvijaju tu sposobnost razmišljanja o mislima drugih.
07:29
So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
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Prva stvar je da vidimo da djeca koriste isto područje mozga, RTPJ,
07:33
being used while children are thinking about other people.
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dok razmišljaju o drugim ljudima.
07:36
But it's not quite like the adult brain.
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Ali nije potpuno isto kao u odraslom mozgu.
07:38
So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
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Kod odraslih, kako sam vam rekla,
07:40
this brain region is almost completely specialized --
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ta regija mozga je skoro potpuno specijalizirana.
07:43
it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
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Ne radi skoro ništa drugo, samo razmišlja o mislima drugih ljudi.
07:46
in children it's much less so,
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Kod djece je to puno manje slučaj,
07:48
when they are age five to eight,
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u dobi od pet do osam godina,
07:50
the age range of the children I just showed you.
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starosna dob koju sam vam upravo pokazala.
07:52
And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
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Čak i ako promatramo dob od osam do 11 godina,
07:55
getting into early adolescence,
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ulazak u rani pubertet,
07:57
they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
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djeca još uvijek nemaju to područje mozga sasvim kao odrasli.
08:00
And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
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Ono što vidimo je da se tijekom djetinjstva,
08:03
and even into adolescence,
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pa čak i ulaskom u pubertet,
08:05
both the cognitive system,
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kako oboje, kognitivni sustav,
08:07
our mind's ability to think about other minds,
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sposobnost našeg mozga da razmišlja o mislima drugih,
08:09
and the brain system that supports it
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i sustav mozga koji mu pruža podršku,
08:11
are continuing, slowly, to develop.
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polako nastavljaju razvijati.
08:14
But of course, as you're probably aware,
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Naravno, kao što ste vjerojatno svjesni,
08:16
even in adulthood,
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čak i odrasli ljudi
08:18
people differ from one another in how good they are
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se međusobno razlikuju po tome koliko su dobri
08:20
at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
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u razmišljanju o umu drugih, koliko to često čine,
08:22
and how accurately.
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i koliko točno.
08:24
And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
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Ono što smo mi željeli znati je mogu li se razlike među odraslima,
08:27
in how they think about other people's thoughts
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u tome kako razmišljaju o mislima drugih
08:29
be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
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objasniti pomoću razlika u ovom području mozga.
08:32
So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
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Prvo što smo napravili je da smo dali odraslima
08:35
of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
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verziju piratskog problema kojeg su bila dobila i djeca.
08:37
And I'm going to give that to you now.
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Sada ću vam to pokazati.
08:39
So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
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Grace i njezina prijateljica su u obilasku tvornice kemikalija
08:42
and they take a break for coffee.
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i naprave pauzu za kavu.
08:44
And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
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Graceina prijateljica traži šećer za svoju kavu.
08:47
Grace goes to make the coffee
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Grace ide napraviti kavu
08:50
and finds by the coffee a pot
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i kraj kave nađe posudu
08:52
containing a white powder, which is sugar.
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s bijelim prahom, šećerom.
08:55
But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
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Ali na posudi piše „Smrtonosni otrov“.
08:58
so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
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Pa Grace misli kako je taj prah smrtonosni otrov.
09:01
And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
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I stavlja taj prah prijateljici u kavu.
09:03
And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
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Njezina prijateljica popije kavu, i dobro je.
09:06
How many people think it was morally permissible
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Koliko vas misli da je moralno dopustivo
09:08
for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
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da Grace stavi taj prah u kavu?
09:12
Okay. Good. (Laughter)
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OK. Dobro. (Smijeh)
09:15
So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
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Pa pitamo ljude koliko je Grace kriva
09:18
in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
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u ovom slučaju, kojeg nazivamo neuspjelim pokušajem povrede.
09:20
And we can compare that to another case,
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I to možemo usporediti s drugim slučajem
09:22
where everything in the real world is the same.
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u kojem je sve u stvarnom svijetu isto.
09:24
The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
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Prah je isto šećer, ali je drugačije ono što Grace misli.
09:27
Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
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Sada ona misli da je prah šećer.
09:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
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I, možda očekivano, ako Grace misli da je prah šećer
09:33
and puts it in her friend's coffee,
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i stavi ga prijateljici u kavu,
09:35
people say she deserves no blame at all.
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ljudi kažu da je ne treba ništa kriviti.
09:37
Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
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Dok, ako je mislila da je prah otrov, premda je zapravo šećer,
09:41
now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
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ljudi misle da je silno kriva,
09:44
even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
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premda je ono što se dogodilo u stvarnom svijetu jednako.
09:47
And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
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Zapravo, ljudi kažu da je ona više kriva
09:49
in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
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u ovom slučaju, neuspjelom pokušaju povrede,
09:51
than in another case,
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nego u drugom slučaju,
09:53
which we call an accident.
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kojega zovemo slučajna nezgoda.
09:55
Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
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U kojem Grace misli da je prah šećer,
09:57
because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
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jer je na njemu pisalo „šećer“ i nalazio se kraj aparata za kavu,
09:59
but actually the powder was poison.
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ali je taj prah, u stvari, bio otrov.
10:01
So even though when the powder was poison,
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Dakle, čak i ako je prah bio otrov,
10:04
the friend drank the coffee and died,
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prijateljica ga je popila i umrla,
10:07
people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
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ljudi kažu da Grace nije toliko kriva
10:10
when she innocently thought it was sugar,
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kad je nedužno mislila da je riječ o šećeru,
10:12
than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
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kao u drugom slučaju, kada je mislila kako je riječ o otrovu,
10:14
and no harm occurred.
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premda se nije dogodilo ništa loše.
10:17
People, though, disagree a little bit
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Ipak, ljudi se malo razlikuju
10:19
about exactly how much blame Grace should get
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u mišljenju koliko je krivice na Grace
10:21
in the accident case.
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u slučaju nezgode.
10:23
Some people think she should deserve more blame,
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Neki misle kako je više kriva,
10:25
and other people less.
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a neki da je manje kriva.
10:27
And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
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Sada ću vam pokazati što se događa unutar
10:29
the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
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mozg kada ljudi donose tu prosudbu.
10:31
So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
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Ono što vam pokazujem, s lijeva na desno,
10:33
is how much activity there was in this brain region,
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je koliko je aktivnosti bilo u tom području mozga.
10:36
and from top to bottom, how much blame
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A odozgo prema dolje vidite koliko krivice
10:38
people said that Grace deserved.
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ljudi kažu da je Grace zaslužila.
10:40
And what you can see is, on the left
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Na lijevoj strani vidite
10:42
when there was very little activity in this brain region,
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da kad je bilo malo aktivnosti u tom području mozga,
10:44
people paid little attention to her innocent belief
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ljudi su vrlo malo pažnje posvetili njezinom nedužnom vjerovanju
10:47
and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
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i rekli su da ona snosi puno krivice.
10:50
Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
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Dok su na desnoj strani, kad je bilo puno moždane aktivnosti,
10:52
people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
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ljudi posvetili puno pažnje njezinom nedužnom vjerovanju,
10:55
and said she deserved a lot less blame
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i rekli kako snosi manje krivice
10:57
for causing the accident.
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za to što je prouzročila nesreću.
10:59
So that's good, but of course
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To je dobro,
11:01
what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
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ali mi bismo radije pronašli način da utječemo
11:03
with function in this brain region,
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na funkcioniranje tog područja u mozgu,
11:05
and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
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i vidjeti možemo li promijeniti moralne prosudbe ljudi.
11:08
And we do have such a tool.
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Imamo alat za to.
11:10
It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
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Zovemo ga Transkranijalna magnetska stimulacija,
11:12
or TMS.
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ili TMS.
11:14
This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
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To nam oruđe omogućava da pustimo magnetski puls
11:16
through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
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kroz nečiju lubanju, u malo područje mozga,
11:20
and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
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i privremeno poremetimo funkcioniranje neurona u tom području.
11:24
So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
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Sada ću vam to demonstrirati.
11:26
First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
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Prvo ću vam pokazati da je to magnetski puls,
11:29
I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
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pokazat ću što se događa kad stavite kovanicu na uređaj.
11:32
When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
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Kad začujete klikanje, uređaj se uključuje.
11:42
So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
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A sada ću taj puls primijeniti na svoj mozak,
11:45
to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
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na dio mozga koji upravlja mojom rukom.
11:47
So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
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Dakle, nema fizičke sile, samo magnetna.
11:54
Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
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Video: Žena: Spremna? Rebecca Saxe: Da.
11:57
Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
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OK, dakle, došlo je do malog spontanog grčenja moje ruke
12:00
by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
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uslijed magnetskog pulsa u mojem mozgu.
12:03
And we can use that same pulse,
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Možemo koristiti isti taj puls,
12:05
now applied to the RTPJ,
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primijeniti ga na područje RTPJ,
12:07
to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
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kako bismo vidjeli možemo li promijeniti moralne prosudbe ljudi.
12:10
So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
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Ovo su prosudbe koje sam vam već pokazala, normalne ljudske prosudbe.
12:12
And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
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A zatim ćemo primijeniti TMS na RTPJ
12:15
and ask how people's judgments change.
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i upitati se kako se prosudbe mijenjaju.
12:17
And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
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Prvo, ljudi i dalje mogu općenito obaviti zadatak.
12:21
So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
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Njihove prosudbe u slučaju u kojem je sve u redu
12:23
remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
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ostaju iste. Kažu da ona nije kriva.
12:26
But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
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Ali u slučaju neuspjelog pokušaja povrede,
12:30
where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
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kad je Grace mislila da je riječ o otrovu, a bio je šećer,
12:33
people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
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ljudi sada kažu da je prihvatljivije, manje je kriva
12:36
for putting the powder in the coffee.
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što je stavila prah u šalicu.
12:39
And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
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A u slučaju nezgode kada je mislila da je šećer,
12:41
but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
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ali je zapravo bio otrov, pa je ona prouzročila smrt,
12:44
people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
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ljudi kažu da nije toliko prihvatljivo, da je na njoj veća krivica.
12:50
So what I've told you today is that
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Ono što sam vam danas rekla je
12:52
people come, actually, especially well equipped
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da su ljudi, zapravo, sasvim dobro opremljeni
12:56
to think about other people's thoughts.
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za razmišljanje o mislima drugih ljudi.
12:58
We have a special brain system
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Imamo poseban sustav u mozgu
13:00
that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
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koji nam omogućava razmišljati o mislima drugih.
13:03
This system takes a long time to develop,
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Taj sustav se razvija dugo vremena,
13:05
slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
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polako tijekom djetinjstva, sve do ranog puberteta.
13:08
And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
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A čak i kod odraslih razlike u ovom području mozga
13:11
can explain differences among adults
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mogu objasniti razlike među ljudima
13:13
in how we think about and judge other people.
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u pogledu toga kako razmišljamo i sudimo o drugima.
13:16
But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
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Ali završnu riječ želim prepustiti romanopiscima.
13:19
and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
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I Philipu Rothu, koji je završio rekavši,
13:22
"The fact remains that getting people right
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"Ostaje činjenica da točno shvatiti ljude
13:24
is not what living is all about anyway.
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ionako nije suština života.
13:26
It's getting them wrong that is living.
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Život čini ono kad ljude razumijemo pogrešno.
13:28
Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
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Shvaćamo ih krivo i krivo i krivo,
13:31
and then on careful reconsideration,
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a zatim, nakon pažljivog razmatranja,
13:33
getting them wrong again."
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shvatimo ih krivo ponovno."
13:35
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
13:37
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
13:47
Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
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Chris Anderson: Kad počnete pričati o korištenju
13:49
magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
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magnetskog pulsa radi mijenjanja moralnih prosudbi,
13:52
that sounds alarming.
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to zvuči alarmantno.
13:55
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
13:56
Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
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Molim vas, recite mi da se ne javljate na pozive iz Pentagona, recimo.
14:00
RS: I'm not.
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Rebecca Saxe: Ne.
14:02
I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
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Mislim, zovu oni, ali se ne javljam.
14:05
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
14:06
CA: They really are calling?
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C.A.: Stvarno zovu?
14:08
So then seriously,
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No, ozbiljno, ozbiljno,
14:11
you must lie awake at night sometimes
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mora da katkada noću ležite budni
14:14
wondering where this work leads.
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i pitate se gdje ovaj rad vodi.
14:16
I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
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Mislim, vi ste očito sjajna osoba.
14:18
but someone could take this knowledge
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Ali netko bi mogao iskoristiti to znanje
14:21
and in some future
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i u budućnosti
14:23
not-torture chamber,
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ne soba za mučenje,
14:25
do acts that people here might be worried about.
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raditi stvari koje bi mogle brinuti ovdje nazočne.
14:28
RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
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R.S.: Da, razmišljamo o tome.
14:30
So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
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Treba reći nekoliko stvari o TMS-u.
14:33
One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
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Jedna je da ne možete primiti puls bez da ste svjesni toga.
14:35
So it's not a surreptitious technology.
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Dakle, nije riječ o skrivenoj tehnologiji.
14:38
It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
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Zapravo je sasvim teško postići ove vrlo male promjene.
14:41
The changes I showed you are impressive to me
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Promjene koje sam vam pokazala su meni impresivne
14:44
because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
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zbog onoga što nam govore o funkciji mozga.
14:46
but they're small on the scale
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Ali su male u usporedbi
14:48
of the moral judgments that we actually make.
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s moralnim prosudbama koje ljudi u stvarnosti donose.
14:50
And what we changed was not people's
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A mi i nismo promijenili
14:52
moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
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moralne prosudbe koje ljudi donose kad odlučuju što učiniti,
14:55
when they're making action choices.
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kad donose odluke o djelovanju.
14:57
We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
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Mi smo promijenili njihovu sposobnost da ocijene tuđa djela.
15:00
And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
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I zato o onome što radim ne razmišljam
15:02
studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
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kao o proučavanju branjenika u kaznenom postupku,
15:04
but studying the jury.
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već više kao o proučavanju porote.
15:06
CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
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C.A.: Hoće li vaš rad voditi nekim preporukama
15:09
in education, to perhaps bring up
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za obrazovni sustav, možda odgojiti
15:12
a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
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naraštaj djece sposobne za pravednije moralne prosudbe?
15:17
RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
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R.S.: To je jedna od idealističnih nada.
15:20
The whole research program here of studying
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Cijeli istraživački projekt, proučavanje
15:24
the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
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različitih dijelova ljudskog mozga je potpuno nov.
15:28
Until recently, what we knew about the brain
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Donedavno smo o mozgu znali samo ono
15:30
were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
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što može raditi i mozak svake životinje.
15:33
so we could study it in animal models.
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Pa smo ga mogli proučavati i na životinjama.
15:35
We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
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Znali smo kako mozak vidi, kako kontrolira tijelo,
15:37
and how they hear and sense.
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kako čuje i ima osjete.
15:39
And the whole project of understanding
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A cijeli projekt razumijevanja
15:42
how brains do the uniquely human things --
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toga kako mozak obavlja stvari jedinstvene za ljude,
15:44
learn language and abstract concepts,
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uči jezik, apstraktne koncepte,
15:47
and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
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i razmišlja o mislima drugih, je posve nov.
15:49
And we don't know yet what the implications will be
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I ne znamo još kakve će biti
15:51
of understanding it.
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implikacije toga razumijevanja.
15:53
CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
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C.A.: Imam zadnje pitanje. Postoji nešto što se zove
15:55
the hard problem of consciousness,
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težak problem svjesnosti,
15:57
that puzzles a lot of people.
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koji mnoge zbunjuje.
15:59
The notion that you can understand
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Shvaćanje da je moguće razumjeti
16:02
why a brain works, perhaps.
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zašto mozak radi, možda.
16:04
But why does anyone have to feel anything?
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Ali zašto bi itko morao išta osjećati?
16:07
Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
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Zašto se čini da je potrebno da osjećamo
16:10
for us to operate?
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da bismo funkcionirali?
16:12
You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
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Vi ste briljantna mlada neuroznanstvenica.
16:15
I mean, what chances do you think there are
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Kakve su šanse
16:17
that at some time in your career,
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da bi u nekom trenutku vaše karijere
16:19
someone, you or someone else,
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netko, vi ili netko drugi,
16:21
is going to come up with some paradigm shift
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mogao doći do pomaka paradigme
16:23
in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
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u razumijevanju toga što se čini kao nemoguć problem.
16:27
RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
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R.S.: Nadam se da hoće. A mislim da vjerojatno neće.
16:31
CA: Why?
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C.A.: Zašto?
16:34
RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
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R.S.: Ne zove se to težak problem svjesnosti tek tako.
16:37
(Laughter)
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(Smijeh)
16:39
CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
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C.A.: Sjajan odgovor. Rebecca Saxe, hvala vam lijepa. Ovo je bilo fantastično.
16:42
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
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