George Papandreou: Imagine a European democracy without borders

65,543 views ・ 2013-06-12

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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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翻译人员: Bighead Ge 校对人员: lin piao
00:13
This will not be a speech
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今天(的演讲)将不像我过去做的
00:14
like any one I have ever given.
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的任何一个演讲
今天我想给你们讲的是
00:17
I will talk to you today about
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00:21
the failure of leadership in global politics
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国际政治中失效的领导能力
和我们正走向国际化的经济
00:26
and in our globalizing economy.
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我不带给你们一些看似美好的现成解决方案
但最终我要敦促你们
00:29
And I won't provide some feel-good, ready-made solutions.
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反思并勇于承担风险,参与到
在我看来是全球范围的
00:36
But I will in the end urge you
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00:38
to rethink, actually take risks, and get involved
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民主变革中来
00:44
in what I see as a global evolution
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00:47
of democracy.
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00:50
Failure of leadership.
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(让我们来谈一下)失效的领导力
00:52
What is the failure of leadership today?
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在当今社会,什么是失效的领导力?
00:55
And why is our democracy not working?
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究竟为什么我们的民主政策不管用?
00:58
Well, I believe that the failure of leadership is the fact
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我认为失效的领导力指的是
01:01
that we have taken you out of the process.
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我们没有把你们(公众)带入民主全球化的进程中
01:05
So let me, from my personal experiences,
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好吧,让我从我个人的经历来
01:08
give you an insight, so that you can step back
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讲一下我的想法,借此你可以退一步
01:12
and maybe understand why it is so difficult to cope
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去理解为什么应对
01:16
with the challenges of today and why politics
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当今社会的挑战是如此困难
01:18
is going down a blind alley.
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为什么政治正走向死胡同
01:22
Let's start from the beginning.
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让我们从头来讲吧
01:24
Let's start from democracy.
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让我们从民主开始讲吧
01:28
Well, if you go back to the Ancient Greeks,
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嗯,如果你回到古希腊
01:30
it was a revelation, a discovery,
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它代表一种启示,一项发现
01:33
that we had the potential, together,
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民主表明我们有潜力能够一起努力
成为我们命运的主人
01:38
to be masters of our own fate,
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01:41
to be able to examine, to learn, to imagine,
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能够检验、学习、想象
01:44
and then to design a better life.
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然后一起设计一个更美好的生活
民主既是一个政治上的创新
01:48
And democracy was the political innovation
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同时也保护我们的自由生活
01:53
which protected this freedom,
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01:55
because we were liberated from fear
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(因为民主)我们能够从恐惧中解放出来
这样我们的内心坚定
02:01
so that our minds in fact,
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02:02
whether they be despots or dogmas,
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无论面临着专制主义或是教条主义的时候
02:05
could be the protagonists.
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(我们)都是自己的主人
02:09
Democracy was the political innovation that allowed us
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民主曾是一个政治创新,让我们得以
02:12
to limit the power, whether it was of tyrants
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限制强权,无论它是来自恶势力
02:16
or of high priests,
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或是大祭司
02:18
their natural tendency to maximize power and wealth.
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这些人的天性就是最大化他们的强权和财富
嗯,我最早意识到这一点
02:23
Well, I first began to understand this
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02:25
when I was 14 years old.
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是在我14岁的时候
02:27
I used to, to try to avoid homework,
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我为了逃避做作业
02:29
sneak down to the living room and listen to my parents
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遛到客厅去听我父母
和他们的朋友激烈辩论
02:34
and their friends debate heatedly.
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02:36
You see, then Greece was
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你知道,希腊过去是
02:38
under control of a very powerful establishment
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在极强大的极权统治之下的
02:43
which was strangling the country,
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这种极权扼制了国家(的发展)
02:44
and my father was heading a promising movement
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我父亲当时在领导一个大有希望的(政治)运动
02:47
to reimagine Greece, to imagine a Greece
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来重新设想希腊,来设想
02:50
where freedom reigned and where, maybe,
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一个由自由主宰的,而且一个
02:52
the people, the citizens, could actually rule their own country.
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由人民、公民来统治的国家
我过去曾参与许多我父亲的竞选活动
02:56
I used to join him in many of the campaigns,
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02:58
and you can see me here next to him.
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你可以(从照片上看到)我站在他旁边
03:00
I'm the younger one there, to the side.
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我是他左边的那个少年
03:03
You may not recognize me because
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你可能认不出我来了,因为
03:06
I used to part my hair differently there.
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我过去的发型与现在略有不同
03:08
(Laughter)
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(观众笑声)
03:10
So in 1967, elections were coming,
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在1967年竞选时
竞选活动非常顺利
03:14
things were going well in the campaign,
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03:16
the house was electric.
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众议院是一片热闹的景象
03:18
We really could sense that there was going to be
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我们真的感觉到了
03:20
a major progressive change in Greece.
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这将使希腊迈出一大步
03:24
Then one night, military trucks drive up to our house.
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然而一个晚上,一辆军用卡车开到我家
03:29
Soldiers storm the door.
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士兵涌进门
他们在露台发现我
03:32
They find me up on the top terrace.
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03:36
A sergeant comes up to me with a machine gun,
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一个警官手提机枪走上前
03:38
puts it to my head, and says,
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顶着我的脑袋,说
03:40
"Tell me where your father is or I will kill you."
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“告诉我你爸在哪里,不然我杀了你”
03:44
My father, hiding nearby, reveals himself,
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我藏在一旁的父亲走了出来
即刻被他们押到了监狱
03:48
and was summarily taken to prison.
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03:52
Well, we survived, but democracy did not.
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我们活了下来,可惜民主没有
03:56
Seven brutal years of dictatorship
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残暴的独裁统治的7年里
03:59
which we spent in exile.
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我们在流亡中度过
04:02
Now, today, our democracies are again
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今天,我们的民主政治再次到了
04:05
facing a moment of truth.
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面临真理的时刻
04:07
Let me tell you a story.
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让我来给你们讲述一个故事
04:09
Sunday evening,
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一个星期日的晚上,
04:11
Brussels, April 2010.
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布鲁塞尔,2010年4月
04:14
I'm sitting with my counterparts in the European Union.
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我和一些欧盟同行坐在一起
04:18
I had just been elected prime minister,
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我刚刚被选为总理
04:21
but I had the unhappy privilege of revealing a truth
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身为总理我不幸地公布这样一个事实
04:25
that our deficit was not 6 percent,
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我们的财务亏损并不是6%
04:28
as had been officially reported only a few days earlier
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那个几天前
在竞选以前,由前任政府所公布的数据
04:32
before the elections by the previous government,
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04:35
but actually 15.6 percent.
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事实上,我们的财务亏损是15.6%
04:40
But the deficit was only the symptom
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但财务亏损仅是
04:42
of much deeper problems that Greece was facing,
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希腊面临的更深层问题的一个体现
04:44
and I had been elected on a mandate, a mission, actually,
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我当选之际,承担的一个使命就是
04:48
to tackle these problems,
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解决这些深层问题
04:50
whether it was lack of transparency
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不论是政府行政缺乏透明度
04:52
and accountability in governance,
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和责任感
04:55
or whether it was a clientelistic state
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还是一个地方保护主义的州政府
04:57
offering favors to the powerful -- tax avoidance
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让利给强权势力-给他们免税
05:02
abetted and aided by a global tax evasion system,
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被全球逃税体系和
特殊利益集团控制下的政界、媒体所怂恿教唆
05:07
politics and media captured by special interests.
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05:10
But despite our electoral mandate,
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尽管我们由选举授权
05:13
the markets mistrusted us.
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市场仍旧无法信任我们
05:16
Our borrowing costs were skyrocketing,
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我们的借贷利率仍旧疯涨
05:19
and we were facing possible default.
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我们那时正面临负债的可能
05:22
So I went to Brussels on a mission
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于是我带着一个使命来到布鲁塞尔
05:25
to make the case for a united European response,
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向欧盟叙述现状,以期得到回应
05:29
one that would calm the markets and give us the time
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从而稳定市场,并给我们时间
05:32
to make the necessary reforms.
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来进行必要的改革
05:35
But time we didn't get.
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但我们未得到(足够的)时间
05:38
Picture yourselves around the table in Brussels.
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想象一下你坐在布鲁赛尔的谈判桌上
05:41
Negotiations are difficult, the tensions are high,
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谈判很艰难,局势很紧张
05:44
progress is slow, and then, 10 minutes to 2,
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整个过程进行得十分缓慢,1点50分的时候
05:47
a prime minister shouts out,
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某国一总理喊起来
05:49
"We have to finish in 10 minutes."
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“我们必须10分钟内结束会议。”
05:51
I said, "Why? These are important decisions.
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我问,“为什么?这些是重要的决定。
05:54
Let's deliberate a little bit longer."
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我们再花点时间商议一下。“
05:56
Another prime minister comes in and says,
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另一国总理插话说,
05:59
"No, we have to have an agreement now,
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”不行,我们不得不达成一致,
06:03
because in 10 minutes,
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因为10分钟以后,
06:05
the markets are opening up in Japan,
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日本市场将开盘,
06:08
and there will be havoc in the global economy."
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全球经济将一片浩劫。”
06:13
We quickly came to a decision in those 10 minutes.
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我们迅速在10分钟内达成协议
06:16
This time it was not the military,
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这一次,不是军队
而是市场,用机枪顶住了我们所有人的脑袋
06:19
but the markets, that put a gun to our collective heads.
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06:25
What followed were the most difficult decisions in my life,
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接下来我做了一生最困难的决定
06:29
painful to me, painful to my countrymen,
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这不仅令我痛苦,也令我的国民痛苦
06:33
imposing cuts, austerity,
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强行削减政策,财政紧缩
06:37
often on those not to blame for the crisis.
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受重挫的往往是那些无辜的人们
06:40
With these sacrifices, Greece did avoid bankruptcy
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由于这样的牺牲,希腊确实没有破产
06:43
and the eurozone avoided a collapse.
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欧元体系也没有崩溃
06:46
Greece, yes, triggered the Euro crisis,
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希腊,是的,引起了欧元危机
06:49
and some people blame me for pulling the trigger.
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而且有些人埋怨是我扣动了扳机
06:52
But I think today that most would agree
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但我认为今天大多数人都同意
06:55
that Greece was only a symptom
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希腊(的问题)仅是一个表象
06:57
of much deeper structural problems in the eurozone,
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是一些在欧元区更深层、更本质问题的一个表象
07:01
vulnerabilities in the wider global economic system,
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是更大范围的全球经济系统漏洞的一个表象
07:05
vulnerabilities of our democracies.
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我们民主政治漏洞的一个表象。
07:08
Our democracies are trapped by systems too big to fail,
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我们的民主政治深陷于“强大得永不坍塌”的系统
07:12
or, more accurately, too big to control.
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或者,更准确地说,“强大得无法驾驭”的系统
07:15
Our democracies are weakened in the global economy
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我们的民主政治在全球经济环境中被削弱
07:18
with players that can evade laws, evade taxes,
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(民主)被那些逃避法律、逃避税收的人(所削弱)
07:21
evade environmental or labor standards.
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(民主)被那些破坏环境和劳动力标准的人(所削弱)
07:25
Our democracies are undermined
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我们的民主政治
07:27
by the growing inequality
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被日益加剧的不平等和
07:30
and the growing concentration of power and wealth,
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权富集中所削弱
政治游说、贪污腐败、市场化的进程
07:33
lobbies, corruption, the speed of the markets
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07:37
or simply the fact that we sometimes fear an impending disaster,
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或仅仅是我们面临灾难的那种恐惧
07:42
have constrained our democracies,
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制约了我们的民主
07:45
and they have constrained our capacity
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制约了我们
07:47
to imagine and actually use the potential, your potential,
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设想和发挥潜能的能力 你们的潜能
寻求解决方案的潜能
07:51
in finding solutions.
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07:54
Greece, you see, was only a preview
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你所看到的希腊只是一场预演
07:56
of what is in store for us all.
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这是我们所有人都将面临的景象
07:59
I, overly optimistically, had hoped
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我曾天真地希望
08:01
that this crisis was an opportunity for Greece, for Europe,
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这个危机提供了一个机会,让希腊,让欧洲
08:04
for the world, to make radical democratic transformations
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进行全世界范围内大幅度的民主改革
08:09
in our institutions.
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改革我们的组织机构
08:11
Instead, I had a very humbling experience.
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可是正相反,我却有了一次非常屈辱的经历
08:15
In Brussels, when we tried desperately again and again
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在布鲁塞尔,当我们一次又一次绝望地努力着
08:19
to find common solutions,
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去寻求共同的解决方案(的时候)
08:21
I realized that not one, not one of us,
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我认识到,我们中没有一个人
08:25
had ever dealt with a similar crisis.
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曾处理过类似的危机
08:28
But worse, we were trapped by our collective ignorance.
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更糟糕的是,我们陷入共同的无知中
08:32
We were led by our fears.
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被恐惧牵着鼻子走
恐惧带着我们走向盲目的信念
08:36
And our fears led to a blind faith
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08:40
in the orthodoxy of austerity.
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对紧缩政策的信奉
08:43
Instead of reaching out to the common
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没有向大众
08:47
or the collective wisdom in our societies,
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抑或是社会集体智慧(求助)
08:50
investing in it to find more creative solutions,
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(没有)花时间寻找有创见性的解决方案
08:54
we reverted to political posturing.
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我们再次摆出了政治姿态
08:56
And then we were surprised when every
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接着我们惊讶地发现
08:58
ad hoc new measure didn't bring an end to the crisis,
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临时推出的方案未能结束危机
09:01
and of course that made it very easy
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当然了,这很容易(让我们)想找到
09:04
to look for a whipping boy
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寻找一个替罪羊
09:06
for our collective European failure,
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来为整个欧洲的失败买单
09:08
and of course that was Greece.
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毫无疑问,这替罪羊就是希腊
09:11
Those profligate, idle, ouzo-swilling, Zorba-dancing Greeks,
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那些挥霍无度的、闲散的、一边畅饮茴香酒,一边狂跳左巴舞的希腊人
09:16
they are the problem. Punish them!
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他们就是问题所在。惩罚他们!
09:19
Well, a convenient but unfounded stereotype
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这随便的毫无依据的陈旧思维
09:23
that sometimes hurt even more than austerity itself.
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往往比财政紧缩带来的危害更大
我要提醒你,这不仅是希腊的问题
09:27
But let me warn you, this is not just about Greece.
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09:31
This could be the pattern
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这可能是一个思维模式的问题
09:34
that leaders follow again and again
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使领导者们一次又一次遵循
09:36
when we deal with these complex, cross-border problems,
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处理复杂跨国问题固有的思维模式的问题
09:40
whether it's climate change, whether it's migration,
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不论是气候问题,是移民问题
09:43
whether it's the financial system.
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还是金融调解问题
09:47
That is, abandoning our collective power
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我们抛弃集体力量
09:49
to imagine our potential,
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不充分发挥我们的潜力
09:51
falling victims to our fears, our stereotypes, our dogmas,
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而选择成为恐惧,机械,教条的牺牲品
09:55
taking our citizens out of the process
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把公民排除在决策层之外
09:57
rather than building the process around our citizens.
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而不是以公民意见为核心来决策
10:02
And doing so will only test the faith
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这样做的结果是
10:04
of our citizens, of our peoples, even more
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考验了我们的公民、人民,甚至
10:06
in the democratic process.
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(考验了)整个民主进程的信念
10:09
It's no wonder that many political leaders,
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难怪很多政治领导
10:11
and I don't exclude myself,
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包括我自己
10:13
have lost the trust of our people.
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失去了人民的信任
10:16
When riot police have to protect parliaments,
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警察需要从骚乱中保护国会
10:20
a scene which is increasingly common around the world,
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这一场面在世界各地越来越常见
10:24
then there's something deeply wrong with our democracies.
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(那是因为)我们的民主政治出现了深层的问题
10:29
That's why I called for a referendum to have the Greek people
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这就是为什么我主张公投,借此让希腊人民自己
10:33
own and decide on the terms of the rescue package.
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决定援救计划的各个条款
10:37
My European counterparts, some of them, at least,
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我的欧洲同行们,至少其中一部分说,
10:39
said, "You can't do this.
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1985
“你不能这么做。
10:41
There will be havoc in the markets again."
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这样又会导致一场市场浩劫。”
我回答说,“我们需要这么做,在恢复对市场的信心以前,
10:45
I said, "We need to, before we restore confidence in the markets,
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我们需要恢复人民的信心与信任。”
10:50
we need to restore confidence and trust amongst our people."
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10:55
Since leaving office, I have had time to reflect.
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离政以后,我有时间来进行反思
10:58
We have weathered the storm, in Greece and in Europe,
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我们经受了在希腊和欧洲的风暴
11:03
but we remain challenged.
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但我们仍面临挑战
11:06
If politics is the power to imagine and use our potential,
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如果政治决策层拥有设想和发挥潜力的能力
11:09
well then 60-percent youth unemployment in Greece,
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那么在希腊以及其他国家60%的青年失业率
11:13
and in other countries, certainly is a lack of imagination
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证明了我们缺乏合理的设想
11:16
if not a lack of compassion.
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缺乏应有的同情心
11:19
So far, we've thrown economics at the problem,
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到现在为止,我们将这个问题归因于经济状况
11:21
actually mostly austerity,
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事实上绝大部分是由于财政紧缩
11:24
and certainly we could have designed alternatives,
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当然我们本可以想其他的办法
11:27
a different strategy, a green stimulus for green jobs,
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不同的策略,(比如)鼓励绿色产业刺激就业
11:30
or mutualized debt, Eurobonds which would
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或互惠借贷,用欧元债券
11:34
support countries in need from market pressures,
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帮助那些困于市场压力的国家
11:37
these would have been much more viable alternatives.
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这些应该是更可行的办法
11:40
Yet I have come to believe that the problem is not so much
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但我相信问题的根本不仅仅
11:42
one of economics as it is one of democracy.
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是一个经济问题,而是一个民主问题
11:46
So let's try something else.
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让我们试试其他的办法
11:48
Let's see how we can bring people back to the process.
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让我们把人民带入这个过程中来
11:51
Let's throw democracy at the problem.
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让我们用民主来解决问题
11:54
Again, the Ancient Greeks, with all their shortcomings,
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古希腊,即便有种种不足
11:57
believed in the wisdom of the crowd
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最辉煌的时期,他们相信群众的智慧
12:00
at their best moments. In people we trust.
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相信值得信赖的人民
12:03
Democracy could not work without the citizens
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民主需要人民通过
商议、辩论、承担公共事务中的责任
12:06
deliberating, debating, taking on public responsibilities
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12:10
for public affairs.
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对公共事务进行决策。
12:12
Average citizens often were chosen for citizen juries
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大多数公民常被选为公民陪审团
12:15
to decide on critical matters of the day.
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来裁决当日重要案件
12:19
Science, theater, research, philosophy,
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科技,戏剧,研究,哲学
12:22
games of the mind and the body,
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是心灵与身体的游戏
12:25
they were daily exercises.
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是一种日常演习
12:26
Actually they were an education for participation,
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事实上通过参与,公民得以进行自我教育
12:30
for the potential, for growing the potential of our citizens.
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因此提高我们公民的潜能
12:34
And those who shunned politics, well, they were idiots.
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那些避开政治的人是蠢货
12:38
You see, in Ancient Greece, in ancient Athens,
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蠢货一词源于古希腊和雅典
12:42
that term originated there.
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来自词根“idio",意思是”自己“
12:44
"Idiot" comes from the root "idio," oneself.
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12:49
A person who is self-centered, secluded, excluded,
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一个自我为中心的、与世隔离,被排斥了的人
12:52
someone who doesn't participate or even examine public affairs.
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一个不参与或不思考公共事务的人
应该参与在集市中来。集市有两个意思
12:57
And participation took place in the agora, the agora having two meanings,
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13:00
both a marketplace and a place where there was political deliberation.
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既指市场,
又指政治商酌的地方
13:07
You see, markets and politics then were one, unified,
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你看,市场和政治是实际上是统一的
13:11
accessible, transparent, because they gave power to the people.
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是可接近的,透明的,因为他们同样给人民以力量
13:14
They serve the demos, democracy.
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让他们为民主服务
(让民主)高于政府,高于市场
13:19
Above government, above markets
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13:22
was the direct rule of the people.
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由人民直接统治
13:24
Today we have globalized the markets
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今天我们已经有了全球化市场
13:27
but we have not globalized our democratic institutions.
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但是我们还没有全球化的民主组织
13:32
So our politicians are limited to local politics,
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所以我们的政治家仍旧局限于本地政治
即便人民可以看到更美好的希望
13:36
while our citizens, even though they see a great potential,
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13:40
are prey to forces beyond their control.
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仍旧被强权所吞噬
13:44
So how then do we reunite the two halves of the agora?
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那么我们怎样重新整合市场经济和政治体系呢?
13:47
How do we democratize globalization?
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我们怎样将全球化民主化呢?
13:49
And I'm not talking about the necessary reforms
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我不是在讨论如何
13:52
of the United Nations or the G20.
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对联合国或G20进行必要的改革
13:55
I'm talking about, how do we secure the space,
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我是在说,我们怎样保留
13:57
the demos, the platform of values,
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民主和价值体系的平台
14:00
so that we can tap into all of your potential?
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在此之基础上我们可以挖掘全部的潜能
这恰恰是欧洲的情况
14:05
Well, this is exactly where I think Europe fits in.
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3875
14:09
Europe, despite its recent failures,
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欧洲,尽管近来失利,
14:11
is the world's most successful cross-border peace experiment.
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仍旧是世界最成功的跨国和平共处的实验平台
14:16
So let's see if it can't be an experiment
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所以让我们来看一看它是否也可以成为
14:19
in global democracy, a new kind of democracy.
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全球民主的实验地,一种新的民主
14:23
Let's see if we can't design a European agora,
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让我们看看是否我们可以设计一个欧洲集市
14:27
not simply for products and services,
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不仅是提供产品和服务的集市
14:29
but for our citizens, where they can work together,
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也是人民进行交流的集市
14:32
deliberate, learn from each other,
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互相讨论,相互学习
14:34
exchange between art and cultures,
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进行艺术与文化的交流
14:37
where they can come up with creative solutions.
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在这里他们可以提出有创意的解决方案
14:41
Let's imagine that European citizens
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让我们想象一下”欧洲公民“
14:44
actually have the power to vote directly
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可以投票
14:46
for a European president,
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直选出一个”欧洲主席“
14:49
or citizen juries chosen by lottery
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3484
或者抽签选出陪审团
14:53
which can deliberate on critical and controversial issues,
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4226
商酌重要的有争议的问题
14:57
a European-wide referendum where our citizens,
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在欧洲范围内公投,我们的公民
15:00
as the lawmakers, vote on future treaties.
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作为法律的制定者,为未来的法律条约投票
15:05
And here's an idea:
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我有个想法
15:07
Why not have the first truly European citizens
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能不能有第一批真正的“欧洲公民”
15:10
by giving our immigrants,
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2020
给各地移民一个“欧洲公民”的身份
15:12
not Greek or German or Swedish citizenship,
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不是希腊公民、德国公民、瑞典公民,
15:16
but a European citizenship?
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3623
而是”欧洲公民“?
15:20
And make sure we actually empower
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2887
保证他们的权利
15:23
the unemployed by giving them a voucher scholarship
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2779
让失业人士拥有”奖学金券“
15:26
where they can choose to study anywhere in Europe.
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3469
让他们随意选择在欧洲的任何地方进行深造
15:29
Where our common identity is democracy,
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4481
这样我们共同的身份是民主
15:34
where our education is through participation,
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4964
这样我们的教育是通过参与
15:39
and where participation builds trust
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3473
这种参与能够建立信任、团结
15:42
and solidarity rather than exclusion and xenophobia.
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而不是排斥与仇外
15:46
Europe of and by the people,
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1662
欧洲属于人民,由人民统治
15:48
a Europe, an experiment in deepening and widening
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4098
在欧洲,推行更深更广的
15:52
democracy beyond borders.
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3016
跨国界的民主政治实验
15:55
Now, some might accuse me of being naive,
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3838
或许有人认为我天真地
15:59
putting my faith in the power and the wisdom of the people.
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4871
过度信赖于人民的力量与智慧
16:03
Well, after decades in politics, I am also a pragmatist.
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4769
有了几十年参政经验的我,也已经变成了一个实用主义者
16:08
Believe me, I have been,
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2556
相信我,我曾经是
16:11
I am, part of today's political system,
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现在仍是当今政治体系中一部分
16:14
and I know things must change.
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我知道这一切必须改变
16:19
We must revive politics as the power to imagine,
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我们必须将政治的复兴作为一种力量来设想
16:23
reimagine, and redesign for a better world.
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来重新设想、设计出一个更美好的世界
16:29
But I also know that this disruptive force of change
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2814
但我也知道这种改变的颠覆性力量
16:31
won't be driven by the politics of today.
301
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3064
不是来自于目前的政治决策层
16:34
The revival of democratic politics
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民主政治的复兴
16:37
will come from you, and I mean all of you.
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4420
将来自你们,我指你们所有人
16:41
Everyone who participates in this global exchange of ideas,
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3986
全球每一个参与交流的人
16:45
whether it's here in this room
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1049
16:46
or just outside this room
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2213
不管是今天到场的人
还是场外的人
16:48
or online or locally, where everybody lives,
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3834
网络上的人,还是住在某地的人,
16:52
everyone who stands up to injustice and inequality,
308
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3320
每个反对不公正不平等的人
16:56
everybody who stands up to those who preach
309
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2720
每个反对
16:58
racism rather than empathy,
310
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2264
那些宣扬种族歧视、无同情心的人
17:01
dogma rather than critical thinking,
311
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2816
那些教条主义、无辩证思考的人
17:03
technocracy rather than democracy,
312
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2316
那些官僚的、无民主思想的人
17:06
everyone who stands up to the unchecked power,
313
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2975
每一个反对不受制约的强权的人
17:09
whether it's authoritarian leaders,
314
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2121
不论是专制的领导人
17:11
plutocrats hiding their assets in tax havens,
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3436
还是逃税来隐藏资产的财阀
还是保护一小撮强权者的政治说客
17:14
or powerful lobbies protecting the powerful few.
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3920
17:18
It is in their interest that all of us are idiots.
317
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5433
这些人希望我们所有人都是蠢货
17:24
Let's not be.
318
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1486
我们偏不!
17:25
Thank you.
319
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1240
17:26
(Applause)
320
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11910
谢谢
(观众掌声)
17:38
Bruno Giussani: You seem to describe a political leadership
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1913
(主持人)你似乎描述了一个政治家
17:40
that is kind of unprepared
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2185
有点措手不及地
17:42
and a prisoner of the whims of the financial markets,
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2782
深陷于金融市场风暴的囹圄中
17:45
and that scene in Brussels that you describe, to me,
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2360
你描述的布鲁塞尔的场面对于我来说
17:47
as a citizen, is terrifying.
325
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2503
一个普通公民来说确实够可怕的
请描述一下您做出决定以后的心情
17:50
Help us understand how you felt after the decision.
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4299
17:54
It was not a good decision, clearly,
327
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1568
显然那不是好决定
17:56
but how do you feel after that, not as the prime minister,
328
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2584
但你心情是怎样的?不是作为总理
17:58
but as George?
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2189
而是作为乔治(你自己)?
18:01
George Papandreou: Well, obviously there were constraints
330
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2542
(乔治·帕潘德里欧)显然当时确实有这样的困难
18:03
which didn't allow me or others to make
331
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3926
令我以及其他人无法做出
18:07
the types of decisions we would have wanted,
332
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1440
我们想要做的决定
18:09
and obviously I had hoped that we would have the time
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2765
我当然希望我们有时间
18:11
to make the reforms which would have dealt
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1707
通过改革来处理财务亏损
18:13
with the deficit rather than trying to cut the deficit
335
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2493
而不是试图消减财务亏损
18:15
which was the symptom of the problem.
336
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1715
那只是问题的表象
18:17
And that hurt. That hurt because that, first of all,
337
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2199
这么做是不利的。不利是因为,首先
18:19
hurt the younger generation, and not only,
338
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3504
对年轻一代不利
而且他们很多人在外示威
18:23
many of them are demonstrating outside,
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1937
18:25
but I think this is one of our problems.
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但我认为这是问题之一
18:26
When we face these crises, we have kept the potential,
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5232
当我们面临危机时,我们忽略了我们的潜力
18:32
the huge potential of our society out of this process,
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3135
忽略了此过程中来自社会的巨大潜力
我们封闭在政治之中
18:35
and we are closing in on ourselves in politics,
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2824
我认为我们就是需要改变这个,寻求
18:38
and I think we need to change that, to really find
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2746
18:40
new participatory ways using the great capabilities
345
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4173
一种以新的方式来参与决策的能力
18:45
that now exist even in technology but not only in technology,
346
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3150
(这种能力)现在甚至存在于科技中,不仅是科技
18:48
the minds that we have, and I think we can find solutions
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3141
也存在于我们的信念中。我认为我们可以找到
18:51
which are much better, but we have to be open.
348
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1807
更好的解决方式,但是我们一定需要有开放的心态
18:53
BG: You seem to suggest that the way forward
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1660
(主持人)你似乎建议下一步
18:54
is more Europe, and that is not to be an easy discourse
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3611
主要是欧洲开始施行(民主政治),这可不太容易做到
18:58
right now in most European countries.
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1723
特别是现在的一些欧洲国家
19:00
It's rather the other way -- more closed borders
352
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3727
它们正好相反,他们开始封闭国界
19:03
and less cooperation and maybe even stepping out
353
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2430
减少合作,甚至将退出
19:06
of some of the different parts of the European construction.
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某些欧盟内的组织
19:10
How do you reconcile that?
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您是怎样看待这个问题的呢?
19:11
GP: Well, I think one of the worst things that happened
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(乔治·帕潘德里欧) 我认为在危机发生后的恶果之一
19:14
during this crisis is that we started a blame game.
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就是我们开始了相互责备
19:16
And the fundamental idea of Europe is that
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欧盟最基本的观念是
19:20
we can cooperate beyond borders,
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我们可以跨越国界合作
19:22
go beyond our conflicts and work together.
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抛开分歧,共同努力
19:24
And the paradox is that, because we have this blame game,
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然而矛盾的是,因为我们开始了相互责备
19:30
we have less the potential to convince our citizens
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我们失去了赢得人心的机会
19:33
that we should work together,
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19:35
while now is the time when we really need
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现在正是我们需要
19:37
to bring our powers together.
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齐心协力的时刻
19:39
Now, more Europe for me is not simply
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现在,欧洲不需要把
19:42
giving more power to Brussels.
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19:43
It is actually giving more power to the citizens of Europe,
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权利交给布鲁塞尔
而是要交给欧洲人民
19:47
that is, really making Europe a project of the people.
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让欧洲成为一个“人民工程”
19:51
So that, I think, would be a way to answer
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所以我认为,可以通过这个来回应
19:53
some of the fears that we have in our society.
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一些社会上的恐慌
19:56
BG: George, thank you for coming to TED.
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(主持人)感谢您光临Ted讲台
19:58
GP: Thank you very much.BG: Thank you.(Applause)
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(乔治·帕潘德里欧)十分感谢。(主持人)谢谢。(观众掌声)
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