George Papandreou: Imagine a European democracy without borders

65,543 views ・ 2013-06-12

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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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譯者: NAN-KUN WU 審譯者: Marssi Draw
00:13
This will not be a speech
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這場演講
00:14
like any one I have ever given.
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和我以前的演講完全不同
00:17
I will talk to you today about
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今天我要告訴你們
00:21
the failure of leadership in global politics
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全球政治以及全球化經濟領導的失敗
00:26
and in our globalizing economy.
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00:29
And I won't provide some feel-good, ready-made solutions.
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我不會提出那些感覺還不錯、 現成的解決辦法
00:36
But I will in the end urge you
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但在演講最後,我會激勵你們去重新思考 事實上,是冒險
00:38
to rethink, actually take risks, and get involved
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並參與我視為全球民主的進化過程
00:44
in what I see as a global evolution
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00:47
of democracy.
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00:50
Failure of leadership.
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失敗的領導
00:52
What is the failure of leadership today?
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何謂現今的失敗領導?
00:55
And why is our democracy not working?
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為何民主失效了?
00:58
Well, I believe that the failure of leadership is the fact
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嗯,我相信失敗的領導表示 我們把自己抽離了整個過程
01:01
that we have taken you out of the process.
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01:05
So let me, from my personal experiences,
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請容我根據我的經驗給你們一些觀點
01:08
give you an insight, so that you can step back
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讓你們退一步,或許也能讓你們了解
01:12
and maybe understand why it is so difficult to cope
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何以處理現今的挑戰是如此艱難
01:16
with the challenges of today and why politics
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以及為何政治會步入一個死胡同
01:18
is going down a blind alley.
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01:22
Let's start from the beginning.
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我們從頭開始說吧
01:24
Let's start from democracy.
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就從民主開始
01:28
Well, if you go back to the Ancient Greeks,
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嗯,如果你回到古希臘
01:30
it was a revelation, a discovery,
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它是種啟示、是種探索
01:33
that we had the potential, together,
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告訴我們有成為 我們自己命運主宰的潛力
01:38
to be masters of our own fate,
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01:41
to be able to examine, to learn, to imagine,
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得以檢視、學習、想像
01:44
and then to design a better life.
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進而塑造出一個更美好的生活
01:48
And democracy was the political innovation
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民主就是政治上的創新
01:53
which protected this freedom,
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它保護了這樣的自由
01:55
because we were liberated from fear
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由於我們從畏懼中解放
02:01
so that our minds in fact,
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不論我們的內心住著暴君或是教條
02:02
whether they be despots or dogmas,
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02:05
could be the protagonists.
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都可以成為主宰
02:09
Democracy was the political innovation that allowed us
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民主是種政治創新,它限制了我們 意圖擁有極大財富與權力的天性
02:12
to limit the power, whether it was of tyrants
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02:16
or of high priests,
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不論這種權力是來自於暴君或是大祭司
02:18
their natural tendency to maximize power and wealth.
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02:23
Well, I first began to understand this
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嗯,14 歲的時候,我開始了解這件事
02:25
when I was 14 years old.
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02:27
I used to, to try to avoid homework,
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我試著逃避回家作業
02:29
sneak down to the living room and listen to my parents
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躡手躡腳地走到客廳聽著我父母
02:34
and their friends debate heatedly.
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和他們朋友們的激烈辯論
02:36
You see, then Greece was
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瞧,希臘當時受到強權控制
02:38
under control of a very powerful establishment
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02:43
which was strangling the country,
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它綁住了整個國家
02:44
and my father was heading a promising movement
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我的父親曾帶領了一個有願景的運動
02:47
to reimagine Greece, to imagine a Greece
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嘗試重現希臘
02:50
where freedom reigned and where, maybe,
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在那裡,自由當道
02:52
the people, the citizens, could actually rule their own country.
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而且人民得以掌握他們的國家
02:56
I used to join him in many of the campaigns,
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我曾經參加過他的好幾個活動
02:58
and you can see me here next to him.
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你可以看到我站在他旁邊
03:00
I'm the younger one there, to the side.
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我是那個比較年輕的,靠這邊
03:03
You may not recognize me because
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你們可能認不太出來
03:06
I used to part my hair differently there.
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因為我那時候的頭髮有分邊
03:08
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
03:10
So in 1967, elections were coming,
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1967 年,選舉將近
03:14
things were going well in the campaign,
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活動進行得很順利
03:16
the house was electric.
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整屋子的人興奮不已
03:18
We really could sense that there was going to be
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我們都能嗅到 希臘即將邁進很大的一步
03:20
a major progressive change in Greece.
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03:24
Then one night, military trucks drive up to our house.
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然後有一天晚上 軍用卡車直接停在我家前面
03:29
Soldiers storm the door.
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士兵衝進門
03:32
They find me up on the top terrace.
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他們在陽台上找到了我
03:36
A sergeant comes up to me with a machine gun,
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一位拿著機關槍的士官走向我
03:38
puts it to my head, and says,
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槍口指著我的頭,說:
03:40
"Tell me where your father is or I will kill you."
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「告訴我你爸在哪,不然你就沒命了。」
03:44
My father, hiding nearby, reveals himself,
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躲在附近的父親自己走出來了
03:48
and was summarily taken to prison.
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他馬上就被關進了大牢
03:52
Well, we survived, but democracy did not.
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嗯,我們活下來了,但是民主並沒有
03:56
Seven brutal years of dictatorship
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我們在獨裁統治下被放逐了殘酷的七年
03:59
which we spent in exile.
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04:02
Now, today, our democracies are again
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今天,我們的民主正再次面對真相
04:05
facing a moment of truth.
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04:07
Let me tell you a story.
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讓我告訴你們一個故事
04:09
Sunday evening,
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星期天晚上
04:11
Brussels, April 2010.
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2010 年四月,在布魯塞爾 (Brussels)
04:14
I'm sitting with my counterparts in the European Union.
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我當時和大家在歐盟
04:18
I had just been elected prime minister,
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我才剛剛被選為總理
04:21
but I had the unhappy privilege of revealing a truth
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但是我卻因為我擁有的特權 得知一件讓我不悅的事實
04:25
that our deficit was not 6 percent,
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那就是我們的赤字不是如同 前幾天舊政府的官方報告所指出的 6%
04:28
as had been officially reported only a few days earlier
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04:32
before the elections by the previous government,
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04:35
but actually 15.6 percent.
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而是 15.6%
04:40
But the deficit was only the symptom
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但是赤字只是顯現出來的症狀而已
04:42
of much deeper problems that Greece was facing,
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隱含在裡頭的是,希臘所面對的更深層病灶
04:44
and I had been elected on a mandate, a mission, actually,
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而我被選出來執行這項命令、這項任務
04:48
to tackle these problems,
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來解決這些問題
04:50
whether it was lack of transparency
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不論我們在管理上是否缺乏透明度
04:52
and accountability in governance,
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以及承擔責任的可信度
04:55
or whether it was a clientelistic state
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又或者這是個提供強權 利益的侍從體系國家──
04:57
offering favors to the powerful -- tax avoidance
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幫助他們利用全球的逃稅系統來避稅、
05:02
abetted and aided by a global tax evasion system,
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05:07
politics and media captured by special interests.
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政治及媒體被特殊利益所操弄
05:10
But despite our electoral mandate,
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儘管選舉授權給我們
05:13
the markets mistrusted us.
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然而市場並不信任我們
05:16
Our borrowing costs were skyrocketing,
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我們的借款成本飆漲
05:19
and we were facing possible default.
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而我們可能無法履行責任
05:22
So I went to Brussels on a mission
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所以我到了布魯塞爾來完成一個任務
05:25
to make the case for a united European response,
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也就是讓歐盟對這件事做出回應
05:29
one that would calm the markets and give us the time
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使市場冷靜下來
05:32
to make the necessary reforms.
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讓我們有時間做出必要的重建工作
05:35
But time we didn't get.
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但我們並沒有得到時間
05:38
Picture yourselves around the table in Brussels.
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設想你們圍在布魯塞爾的桌邊
05:41
Negotiations are difficult, the tensions are high,
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談判很困難,壓力很大
05:44
progress is slow, and then, 10 minutes to 2,
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進度緩慢,後來,1 點 50 分的時候
05:47
a prime minister shouts out,
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一位總理吼道:
05:49
"We have to finish in 10 minutes."
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「我們得在 10 分鐘之內結束!」
05:51
I said, "Why? These are important decisions.
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我說:「為什麼?這是重要的決定。
05:54
Let's deliberate a little bit longer."
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我們再斟酌久一些吧。」
05:56
Another prime minister comes in and says,
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另一位總理走進來並說:
05:59
"No, we have to have an agreement now,
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「不,我們現在就要做出協議,
06:03
because in 10 minutes,
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因為 10 分鐘之後,
06:05
the markets are opening up in Japan,
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日本就要開市了,
06:08
and there will be havoc in the global economy."
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會讓全球經濟陷入混亂。」
06:13
We quickly came to a decision in those 10 minutes.
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我們快速地在 10 分鐘之內做出決定
06:16
This time it was not the military,
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這次拿槍指著我們頭的 不是軍隊,而是市場
06:19
but the markets, that put a gun to our collective heads.
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06:25
What followed were the most difficult decisions in my life,
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接下來的是我這輩子所做過最困難的決定
06:29
painful to me, painful to my countrymen,
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我很痛苦,我的人民也很痛苦
06:33
imposing cuts, austerity,
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在不該對這個危機負責的人身上
06:37
often on those not to blame for the crisis.
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刻下了深刻而嚴峻的傷口
06:40
With these sacrifices, Greece did avoid bankruptcy
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做了這些犧牲後,希臘免除了破產的命運
06:43
and the eurozone avoided a collapse.
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而歐元區也免於崩盤
06:46
Greece, yes, triggered the Euro crisis,
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希臘,毫無疑問,引起了歐洲危機
06:49
and some people blame me for pulling the trigger.
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有些人也把我視為這個危機的推手
06:52
But I think today that most would agree
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但我認為今天大多數的人會同意
06:55
that Greece was only a symptom
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希臘只是歐元區更深層結構問題
06:57
of much deeper structural problems in the eurozone,
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之中的一個症狀
07:01
vulnerabilities in the wider global economic system,
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一個在更廣大的全球經濟系統底下的受害者
07:05
vulnerabilities of our democracies.
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一個我們的民主底下的受害者
07:08
Our democracies are trapped by systems too big to fail,
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我們的民主陷在一個太大 而不能出錯的系統之中
07:12
or, more accurately, too big to control.
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更準確地說,是太大而難以控制
07:15
Our democracies are weakened in the global economy
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在有著玩家懂得逃避法律、逃稅、
07:18
with players that can evade laws, evade taxes,
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逃避環境或勞動基準法規的全球經濟之中
07:21
evade environmental or labor standards.
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我們的民主被削弱了
07:25
Our democracies are undermined
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在這日漸成長的不公平之中
07:27
by the growing inequality
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我們的民主遭到了破壞
07:30
and the growing concentration of power and wealth,
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權力以及財富的持續集中
07:33
lobbies, corruption, the speed of the markets
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遊說、貪汙、市場的速度
07:37
or simply the fact that we sometimes fear an impending disaster,
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或只是我們有時會畏懼迫切危機的事實
07:42
have constrained our democracies,
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壓抑了我們的民主
07:45
and they have constrained our capacity
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壓制了我們想像
07:47
to imagine and actually use the potential, your potential,
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事實上,也壓制了你們尋找解答的潛力
07:51
in finding solutions.
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07:54
Greece, you see, was only a preview
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希臘,如你所見,對我們來說
07:56
of what is in store for us all.
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只是現況的預兆而已
07:59
I, overly optimistically, had hoped
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我當時過度樂觀地希望
08:01
that this crisis was an opportunity for Greece, for Europe,
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這個危機是希臘、歐洲、全世界
08:04
for the world, to make radical democratic transformations
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進行民主制度快速轉型的契機
08:09
in our institutions.
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08:11
Instead, I had a very humbling experience.
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相反地,我有一個不太榮耀的經驗
08:15
In Brussels, when we tried desperately again and again
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在布魯塞爾,當我們一再一再拼命
08:19
to find common solutions,
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想要找出辦法的時候
08:21
I realized that not one, not one of us,
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我了解到沒有任何人,我們沒有任何人
08:25
had ever dealt with a similar crisis.
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曾經處理過類似的危機
08:28
But worse, we were trapped by our collective ignorance.
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更糟的是,我們被束縛在我們的無知當中
08:32
We were led by our fears.
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我們被恐懼牽著鼻子走
08:36
And our fears led to a blind faith
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恐懼帶著我們走向對於
08:40
in the orthodoxy of austerity.
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撙節的盲目信仰
08:43
Instead of reaching out to the common
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我們不但沒有在社會中集思廣益
08:47
or the collective wisdom in our societies,
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08:50
investing in it to find more creative solutions,
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並在當中找尋更有創意的答案
08:54
we reverted to political posturing.
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我們反而回到了政治的裝腔作勢
08:56
And then we were surprised when every
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然而,讓我們訝異的是
08:58
ad hoc new measure didn't bring an end to the crisis,
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每一個我們首次嘗試的特別方法 都無法終結這個危機
09:01
and of course that made it very easy
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理所當然這就會讓我們很容易想要
09:04
to look for a whipping boy
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09:06
for our collective European failure,
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替整個歐洲的失敗找代罪羔羊
09:08
and of course that was Greece.
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當然,那頭代罪羔羊就是希臘
09:11
Those profligate, idle, ouzo-swilling, Zorba-dancing Greeks,
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恣意揮霍、無所事事、狂飲茴香酒 跳左巴舞 (Zorba) 的希臘人
09:16
they are the problem. Punish them!
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他們就是問題所在 懲罰他們吧!
09:19
Well, a convenient but unfounded stereotype
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嗯,真是一個方便但是毫無根據的刻版印象
09:23
that sometimes hurt even more than austerity itself.
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它有時候甚至比樽節還要更傷人
09:27
But let me warn you, this is not just about Greece.
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但是我要警告你們,這不單單只是希臘的事
09:31
This could be the pattern
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這有可能會是我們處理這些複雜 跨國界問題的時候
09:34
that leaders follow again and again
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09:36
when we deal with these complex, cross-border problems,
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領導人們可能會重蹈的覆轍
09:40
whether it's climate change, whether it's migration,
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不論是關於氣候變遷、移民、財政系統
09:43
whether it's the financial system.
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09:47
That is, abandoning our collective power
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也就是拋棄了 能夠想像我們的潛能的集體力量
09:49
to imagine our potential,
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09:51
falling victims to our fears, our stereotypes, our dogmas,
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成為我們恐懼、刻板印象、圭臬的受害者
09:55
taking our citizens out of the process
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把人民從這個過程中抽離
09:57
rather than building the process around our citizens.
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而不是讓他們融入這個過程
10:02
And doing so will only test the faith
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這麼做只會更加考驗 人民在這個民主過程的信念
10:04
of our citizens, of our peoples, even more
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10:06
in the democratic process.
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10:09
It's no wonder that many political leaders,
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難怪很多政治領袖
10:11
and I don't exclude myself,
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包括我自己
10:13
have lost the trust of our people.
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會失去人民的信任
10:16
When riot police have to protect parliaments,
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當鎮暴警察需要保護議會的時候
10:20
a scene which is increasingly common around the world,
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這是一個在全球越來越普遍的畫面
10:24
then there's something deeply wrong with our democracies.
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那麼我們的民主就出了很大的問題
10:29
That's why I called for a referendum to have the Greek people
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這就是為什麼我要舉辦公投
10:33
own and decide on the terms of the rescue package.
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讓希臘的人民決定紓困方案
10:37
My European counterparts, some of them, at least,
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至少有一些我的歐洲同伴
10:39
said, "You can't do this.
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說:「你不能這麼做
10:41
There will be havoc in the markets again."
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會帶給市場另一場混亂。」
10:45
I said, "We need to, before we restore confidence in the markets,
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我說:「我們必須這麼做 在我們重建市場的信心之前
10:50
we need to restore confidence and trust amongst our people."
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我們必須重建人民的信心以及信任。」
10:55
Since leaving office, I have had time to reflect.
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自從辭職以來,我有了時間來省思
10:58
We have weathered the storm, in Greece and in Europe,
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在歐洲和希臘,我們飽受風暴的摧殘
11:03
but we remain challenged.
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但是我們仍面臨挑戰
11:06
If politics is the power to imagine and use our potential,
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如果政治是用來想像 以及運用我們的潛力的力量
11:09
well then 60-percent youth unemployment in Greece,
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那麼在希臘和其它國家 60% 的青年失業率
11:13
and in other countries, certainly is a lack of imagination
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如果不是缺乏同情
11:16
if not a lack of compassion.
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就是缺乏想像力
11:19
So far, we've thrown economics at the problem,
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到目前為止,我們把經濟當作解決問題的方法
11:21
actually mostly austerity,
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事實上,大部分是樽節
11:24
and certainly we could have designed alternatives,
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當然我們可以設計出不同的替代方案
11:27
a different strategy, a green stimulus for green jobs,
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不同的策略、給綠能產業點綠色振興方案
11:30
or mutualized debt, Eurobonds which would
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或是能夠援助需要幫助的國家
11:34
support countries in need from market pressures,
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脫離市場壓力的相互債、歐洲債券
11:37
these would have been much more viable alternatives.
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這些都是更可行的替代方案
11:40
Yet I have come to believe that the problem is not so much
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但是我認為這個問題 並不全然是經濟的問題
11:42
one of economics as it is one of democracy.
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也是民主的問題
11:46
So let's try something else.
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所以讓我們來試試別的
11:48
Let's see how we can bring people back to the process.
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我們來看看要如何 把人民拉回到這個過程之中
11:51
Let's throw democracy at the problem.
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我們把民主當作解決方法
11:54
Again, the Ancient Greeks, with all their shortcomings,
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再說一次,並非完美的古希臘
11:57
believed in the wisdom of the crowd
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在全盛時期相信群眾的智慧
12:00
at their best moments. In people we trust.
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我們信任人民
12:03
Democracy could not work without the citizens
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人民不深思熟慮、辯論、 不為公眾事務承擔責任
12:06
deliberating, debating, taking on public responsibilities
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12:10
for public affairs.
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民主就無法運作
12:12
Average citizens often were chosen for citizen juries
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公民有相等的機會被選為公民陪審團
12:15
to decide on critical matters of the day.
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來決定重大的事項
12:19
Science, theater, research, philosophy,
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科學、劇院、研究、哲學
12:22
games of the mind and the body,
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身體與心靈的遊戲
12:25
they were daily exercises.
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它們是日常的活動
12:26
Actually they were an education for participation,
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事實上它們是為了讓人民參與、
12:30
for the potential, for growing the potential of our citizens.
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讓人民發揮潛力的教育
12:34
And those who shunned politics, well, they were idiots.
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那些規避政治的人,嗯,他們是白癡
12:38
You see, in Ancient Greece, in ancient Athens,
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你看,在古希臘,古雅典
12:42
that term originated there.
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這個詞就是從那裏來的
12:44
"Idiot" comes from the root "idio," oneself.
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「白癡」(idiot) 這個詞是從 「自我」(idio) 這個字根來的
12:49
A person who is self-centered, secluded, excluded,
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一個自我中心、孤僻、抗拒
12:52
someone who doesn't participate or even examine public affairs.
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不參與,甚至不檢視公眾事務的人
12:57
And participation took place in the agora, the agora having two meanings,
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參與就發生在集市 (agora),而集市有兩層意思
13:00
both a marketplace and a place where there was political deliberation.
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一個市場或是一個議論政治的地方
13:07
You see, markets and politics then were one, unified,
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你瞧,市場和政治在當時是同一件事、是一體的
13:11
accessible, transparent, because they gave power to the people.
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可碰觸的、透明的,因為它們賦予了人民權力
13:14
They serve the demos, democracy.
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它們是民主的樣本
13:19
Above government, above markets
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在政府之上,在市場之上的
13:22
was the direct rule of the people.
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就是由人民直接治理
13:24
Today we have globalized the markets
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今天我們把市場全球化了
13:27
but we have not globalized our democratic institutions.
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但是我們沒有把民主制度全球化
13:32
So our politicians are limited to local politics,
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所以我們的政客們被限制在地方政治
13:36
while our citizens, even though they see a great potential,
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即使人民看到了相當大的潛力
13:40
are prey to forces beyond their control.
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仍然受到非他們所能控制的力量所苦
13:44
So how then do we reunite the two halves of the agora?
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所以我們要如何 再次結合集市的兩層意義呢?
13:47
How do we democratize globalization?
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我們要如何將全球化民主化?
13:49
And I'm not talking about the necessary reforms
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我不是在說聯合國和 G20 所需要的改革
13:52
of the United Nations or the G20.
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13:55
I'm talking about, how do we secure the space,
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我說的是,我們要如何拯救這個地方、
13:57
the demos, the platform of values,
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這個樣本、這個價值觀念的平台?
14:00
so that we can tap into all of your potential?
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如此一來,我們就可以利用你們的潛力
14:05
Well, this is exactly where I think Europe fits in.
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嗯,這就是我心目中對歐洲的定位
14:09
Europe, despite its recent failures,
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拋開最近的失敗
14:11
is the world's most successful cross-border peace experiment.
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歐洲是全世界最成功的跨國界和平實驗
14:16
So let's see if it can't be an experiment
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因此讓我們來看看能不能做個全球民主實驗
14:19
in global democracy, a new kind of democracy.
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一種嶄新的民主
14:23
Let's see if we can't design a European agora,
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看看我們能不能設計一種歐洲的集市
14:27
not simply for products and services,
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不只是為了產品以及服務
14:29
but for our citizens, where they can work together,
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也為了人民,讓他們能夠合作
14:32
deliberate, learn from each other,
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商討、互相學習
14:34
exchange between art and cultures,
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交換藝術以及文化
14:37
where they can come up with creative solutions.
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讓他們能想出有創意的解決方法
14:41
Let's imagine that European citizens
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試著想像歐洲人民
14:44
actually have the power to vote directly
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真的有能力直接選舉出
14:46
for a European president,
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一位歐洲總統
14:49
or citizen juries chosen by lottery
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或是用抽籤的方式選出
14:53
which can deliberate on critical and controversial issues,
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能夠商討重要事項和爭議議題的人民陪審團
14:57
a European-wide referendum where our citizens,
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一個橫跨歐洲的公投,讓人民成為立法者
15:00
as the lawmakers, vote on future treaties.
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一起投票決定未來的條約
15:05
And here's an idea:
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我在這裡提供一個想法:
15:07
Why not have the first truly European citizens
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我們何不嘗試給予移民者歐洲公民身分──
15:10
by giving our immigrants,
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不是希臘、德國、
15:12
not Greek or German or Swedish citizenship,
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或是瑞典的公民身分──
15:16
but a European citizenship?
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而是歐洲公民的身分
15:20
And make sure we actually empower
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而且確定我們能給予失業者學習禮券
15:23
the unemployed by giving them a voucher scholarship
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賦予他們能夠在歐洲任何地方學習的權利
15:26
where they can choose to study anywhere in Europe.
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15:29
Where our common identity is democracy,
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在那裡,我們的共同身分是民主
15:34
where our education is through participation,
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在那裡,我們透過參與來教育
15:39
and where participation builds trust
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在那裡,參與能夠建立信任以及團結
15:42
and solidarity rather than exclusion and xenophobia.
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而不是排斥以及仇外
15:46
Europe of and by the people,
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由人民組成及建立的歐洲
15:48
a Europe, an experiment in deepening and widening
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一個具有更深、更廣的民主制度
15:52
democracy beyond borders.
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的跨越國界歐洲
15:55
Now, some might accuse me of being naive,
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現在,有些人可能會指責我太天真
15:59
putting my faith in the power and the wisdom of the people.
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天真到去相信人民的力量以及智慧
16:03
Well, after decades in politics, I am also a pragmatist.
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嗯,從政數十年之後,我也是一個實用主義者
16:08
Believe me, I have been,
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相信我,我在過去和現在
16:11
I am, part of today's political system,
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都身處於現代政治體系中的一部分
16:14
and I know things must change.
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而我了解有些東西必須改變
16:19
We must revive politics as the power to imagine,
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我們必須讓政治重生,並讓它成為
16:23
reimagine, and redesign for a better world.
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想像、重新想像、設計 一個更美好世界的力量
16:29
But I also know that this disruptive force of change
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但是我也知道現今的政治沒有
16:31
won't be driven by the politics of today.
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這樣顛覆性的改變力量
16:34
The revival of democratic politics
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民主政治的重生
16:37
will come from you, and I mean all of you.
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將由你們而生,我指的是你們每一位
16:41
Everyone who participates in this global exchange of ideas,
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任何參與這場全球性改變的人
16:45
whether it's here in this room
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1049
不論是否在這個房間裡
16:46
or just outside this room
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或是在房間外面
16:48
or online or locally, where everybody lives,
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3834
或是在網路上、在大家住的地方
16:52
everyone who stands up to injustice and inequality,
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3320
任何勇敢對抗不公不義的人
16:56
everybody who stands up to those who preach
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2720
任何勇敢對抗那些宣揚種族岐視
16:58
racism rather than empathy,
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2264
而非同理心的人
17:01
dogma rather than critical thinking,
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2816
對抗宣揚教條而非選擇批判性思考的人
17:03
technocracy rather than democracy,
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對抗宣揚技術官僚統治 而非選擇民主政治的人
17:06
everyone who stands up to the unchecked power,
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對抗那些不受約束權力的人
17:09
whether it's authoritarian leaders,
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2121
不論那是獨裁領導人、
17:11
plutocrats hiding their assets in tax havens,
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3436
將財富藏在避稅天堂的財閥
17:14
or powerful lobbies protecting the powerful few.
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或是保護少數有力人士的有力遊說者
17:18
It is in their interest that all of us are idiots.
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我們全是笨蛋,對他們最有利
17:24
Let's not be.
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別當笨蛋
17:25
Thank you.
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謝謝
17:26
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
17:38
Bruno Giussani: You seem to describe a political leadership
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1913
布魯諾.朱薩尼 (Bruno Giussani): 你似乎敘述了一段有點沒準備好的
17:40
that is kind of unprepared
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政治領導人生涯
17:42
and a prisoner of the whims of the financial markets,
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2782
以及一個被囚禁在對商場有怪念頭的人
17:45
and that scene in Brussels that you describe, to me,
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還有,你所敘述的那段布魯塞爾的景象
17:47
as a citizen, is terrifying.
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對我這個人民來說相當駭人
17:50
Help us understand how you felt after the decision.
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幫助我們了解你在 決定之後的感覺是什麼
17:54
It was not a good decision, clearly,
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那顯然不是一個好的決定
17:56
but how do you feel after that, not as the prime minister,
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2584
但是身為喬治,而不是總理
17:58
but as George?
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你在那之後的感覺是什麼?
18:01
George Papandreou: Well, obviously there were constraints
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2542
喬治:嗯,顯然有某種束縛
18:03
which didn't allow me or others to make
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3926
讓我或是其他人在當時無法做出
18:07
the types of decisions we would have wanted,
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我們心目中的決定
18:09
and obviously I had hoped that we would have the time
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顯然我也曾希望我們能有時間
18:11
to make the reforms which would have dealt
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能夠進行改革,來處理赤字
18:13
with the deficit rather than trying to cut the deficit
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而不是嘗試減少赤字
18:15
which was the symptom of the problem.
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演變成這個問題所顯現的症狀
18:17
And that hurt. That hurt because that, first of all,
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那很傷人 首先是因為
18:19
hurt the younger generation, and not only,
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它傷害了年輕一代,而不僅是他們
18:23
many of them are demonstrating outside,
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還有許多在外示威遊行的人們
18:25
but I think this is one of our problems.
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但我認為這只是我們的其中一個問題而已
18:26
When we face these crises, we have kept the potential,
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當我們面對這些危機,我們並沒有在過程中
18:32
the huge potential of our society out of this process,
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運用我們社會的巨大潛力
18:35
and we are closing in on ourselves in politics,
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2824
我們把自己關在政治圈裡
18:38
and I think we need to change that, to really find
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而我認為我們應當改變
18:40
new participatory ways using the great capabilities
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利用現有的強大科技,但那不僅僅是科技 還有我們的內心
18:45
that now exist even in technology but not only in technology,
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來找出新的參與方法
18:48
the minds that we have, and I think we can find solutions
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我認為我們能找出更好的辦法
18:51
which are much better, but we have to be open.
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但我們必須有開闊的胸襟
18:53
BG: You seem to suggest that the way forward
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喬治:你似乎想建議,若要進步的話 需要有一體化的歐洲
18:54
is more Europe, and that is not to be an easy discourse
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而這論述目前對大部分的歐洲國家來說
18:58
right now in most European countries.
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並不容易進行
19:00
It's rather the other way -- more closed borders
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現在的情況剛好相反──較封閉的邊界
19:03
and less cooperation and maybe even stepping out
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以及較少的合作,有些國家甚至沒有不參與
19:06
of some of the different parts of the European construction.
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其它部分歐洲的建設
19:10
How do you reconcile that?
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你要怎麼協調?
19:11
GP: Well, I think one of the worst things that happened
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布魯諾:嗯,我認為在這場危機之中
19:14
during this crisis is that we started a blame game.
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所發生最糟的事情就是我們開始互相怪罪
19:16
And the fundamental idea of Europe is that
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歐洲最根本的概念就是
19:20
we can cooperate beyond borders,
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我們能夠從事跨國界的合作
19:22
go beyond our conflicts and work together.
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不發生衝突且同心協力
19:24
And the paradox is that, because we have this blame game,
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矛盾之處在於我們開始互相怪罪
19:30
we have less the potential to convince our citizens
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因此我們說服人民我們應該合作
19:33
that we should work together,
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的力量就相形薄弱
19:35
while now is the time when we really need
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而現在就是我們應該
19:37
to bring our powers together.
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同心協力的時刻
19:39
Now, more Europe for me is not simply
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現在一體化的歐洲對我來說
不單單只是給予布魯塞爾更大的權力
19:42
giving more power to Brussels.
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19:43
It is actually giving more power to the citizens of Europe,
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而其實是給歐洲人民更大的權力
19:47
that is, really making Europe a project of the people.
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也就是讓歐洲成為人民的計畫
19:51
So that, I think, would be a way to answer
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我認為這是較好的方式
19:53
some of the fears that we have in our society.
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來回應一部分人民在社會中的恐懼
19:56
BG: George, thank you for coming to TED.
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布魯諾:喬治,謝謝你來 TED
19:58
GP: Thank you very much.BG: Thank you.(Applause)
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喬治:非常感謝 布魯諾:謝謝
(掌聲)
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