Kwame Anthony Appiah: Is religion good or bad? (This is a trick question)

翻译人员: Cindy Ma 校对人员: Wei Wu

People say things about religion all the time.

人们总是在谈论着宗教。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

The late, great Christopher Hitchens

已故的伟大的克里斯托弗·希钦斯

wrote a book called "God Is Not Great"

写过一本书，叫做《上帝并不伟大》

whose subtitle was, "Religion Poisons Everything."

它的副标题是：宗教毒害一切。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But last month, in Time magazine,

但是，在上个月的《时代》杂志上，

Rabbi David Wolpe, who I gather is referred to as America's rabbi,

拉比·戴维·沃尔普， 也就是那个被誉为美国的拉比（先知）的人，

said, to balance that against that negative characterization,

为了反对这些对于宗教的消极看法，

that no important form of social change

他说：只有有组织的宗教活动

can be brought about except through organized religion.

能够带来重要的社会形势的变革。

Now, remarks of this sort on the negative

至今为止这些对于宗教的不好

and the positive side are very old.

乃至好的评价都已经是老生常谈了。

I have one in my pocket here

我现在就能想到一个：

from the first century BCE by Lucretius,

公元前的第一个世纪， 卢克莱修（古罗马哲学家及诗人），

the author of "On the Nature of Things," who said,

也就是《物性论》的作者，他说，

"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" --

"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" （拉丁文）

I should have been able to learn that by heart —

我应该是已经把它铭记于心了的，

which is, that's how much religion

它的意思就是，宗教

is able to persuade people to do evil,

是可以使人们做一些邪恶的事情的，

and he was talking about the fact

同时他还陈述了一个真实案例：

of Agamemnon's decision to place his daughter

阿伽门农决定将其女儿

Iphigenia on an altar of sacrifice

依菲琴尼亚作为祭祀的贡品，

in order to preserve the prospects of his army.

为的是保佑他的军队 能够在以后的战争中所向披靡。

So there have been these long debates

因而从这个事件中就可以看出，

over the centuries, in that case, actually,

实际上，有关宗教的讨论可以追溯到很久以前，

we can say over the millennia, about religion.

我们甚至可以说超过了一千年。

People have talked about it a lot,

人们说了很多关于宗教的问题，

and they've said good and bad

有好有坏，

and indifferent things about it.

观点不一。

What I want to persuade you of today

而我今天想和大家分享的

is of a very simple claim,

只是一个很简单的想法:

which is that these debates are

所有的这些争论

in a certain sense preposterous,

在某种程度上都是荒谬的，

because there is no such thing as religion

因为这个世界上根本没有宗教这种东西，

about which to make these claims.

所以也就不应该产生这些观点。

There isn't a thing called religion,

既然这个世界上根本没有宗教这种东西，

and so it can't be good or bad.

我们也不应该评价其好坏。

It can't even be indifferent.

它甚至不能作为一个中立的说法。

And if you think about claims

如果你想想

about the nonexistence of things,

其他的不存在的事物，

one obvious way to try and establish

一个很明显的检验这个观点

the nonexistence of a purported thing

是不是不存在的一个方法是

would be to offer a definition of that thing

按照这些观点定义这个事物，

and then to see whether anything satisfied it.

然后看看是否能寻找到符合这个定义的事物。

I'm going to start out on that little route

我今天的演讲也将按照这条小路线

to begin with.

出发。

So if you look in the dictionaries

当你希望依靠翻阅字典来

and if you think about it,

明白宗教的意思时，

one very natural definition of religion

你会发现字典上

is that it involves belief in gods or in spiritual beings.

它的定义与相信上帝或者精神层面的事物有关。

As I say, this is in many dictionaries,

就像我刚才说的， 这是大多数字典中给出的答案，

but you'll also find it actually

但是你也会发现，实际上，

in the work of Sir Edward Tylor,

在爱德华·泰勒的著作中也提到了这个观点，

who was the first professor of anthropology at Oxford,

泰勒是牛津大学的第一位人类学教授，

one of the first modern anthropologists.

也是近代第一批人类学家中的一员。

In his book on primitive culture,

在他有关远古文化的著作中，

he says the heart of religion is what he called animism,

他说，宗教的中心应该称作万物有灵论，

that is, the belief in spiritual agency,

也就是信仰神的使者，

belief in spirits.

信仰神灵。

The first problem for that definition

这个定义首先出现的一个问题

is from a recent novel by Paul Beatty called "Tuff."

源于保罗•贝蒂最新出版的一本小说，叫做《塔夫》。

There's a guy talking to a rabbi.

他写道一个人向拉比求助。

The rabbi says he doesn't believe in God.

然而拉比却说他自己并不相信上帝。

The guy says, "You're a rabbi, how can you not believe in God?"

这个人又说， ”你是拉比，你怎么能不相信上帝呢？“

And the reply is, "It's what's so great about being Jewish.

他回答道，“这就是作为一名犹太人的好处，

You don't have to believe in a God per se,

你并不用信奉上帝本身，

just in being Jewish." (Laughter)

只要相信自己是个犹太人就行。”（笑声）

So if this guy is a rabbi, and a Jewish rabbi,

所以，如果这个人是一个拉比， 并且是一个犹太人的拉比，

and if you have to believe in God in order to be religious,

同时你又为了有宗教信仰而信仰上帝，

then we have the rather counterintuitive conclusion

那么我们会得出一个看似违反常理的结论，

that since it's possible to be a Jewish rabbi

既然可以有一个犹太的拉比

without believing in God,

不信奉上帝，

Judaism isn't a religion.

那么犹太教就不是一个宗教。

That seems like a pretty counterintuitive thought.

这仿佛是一个非常有悖常理的想法。

Here's another argument against this view.

这里还有另外一个反对这一观点的说法。

A friend of mine, an Indian friend of mine,

我一个朋友，一个印度朋友，

went to his grandfather when he was very young,

在他很小的时候，有一次他去看他的祖父，

a child, and said to him,

这时候他还是个孩子，他对他的祖父说，

"I want to talk to you about religion,"

“我想和你谈谈宗教这个话题，”

and his grandfather said, "You're too young.

他的祖父说，“你现在还太小，

Come back when you're a teenager."

等你变成一个真正的少年以后再来和我讨论这个话题。”

So he came back when he was a teenager,

当他成为少年以后，他又回来了，

and he said to his grandfather,

他对他祖父说，

"It may be a bit late now

“现在讨论这个话题也许有点晚了，

because I've discovered that I don't believe in the gods."

因为我已经发现了我并不相信上帝。”

And his grandfather, who was a wise man, said,

而他祖父则是一个非常明智的人，他说，

"Oh, so you belong to the atheist branch

“哦，原来你是传统印度教中

of the Hindu tradition." (Laughter)

无神论分支的一份子。”（笑声）

And finally, there's this guy,

最后，这个人

who famously doesn't believe in God.

变成一位非常有名的无神论着，

His name is the Dalai Lama.

他的名字是达赖喇嘛。

He often jokes that he's one of the world's leading atheists.

他总是开玩笑说他是世界上最有名的无神论者之一。

But it's true, because the Dalai Lama's religion

这是事实，因为达赖喇嘛的宗教信仰中

does not involve belief in God.

并不涉及相信上帝。

Now you might think this just shows

现在，你也许会认为

that I've given you the wrong definition

我刚才给大家展示的这些是对宗教的错误定义，

and that I should come up with some other definition

我还应该找到一些其他的定义

and test it against these cases

并逐一检测他们的正确性，

and try and find something that captures

尝试找到一个定义能够囊括

atheistic Judaism, atheistic Hinduism,

无神犹太教，无神印度教，

and atheistic Buddhism as forms of religiosity,

无神佛教，以及其他各种形式的信仰。

but I actually think that that's a bad idea,

但我真的认为这是一个坏主意，

and the reason I think it's a bad idea

我之所以认为它是一个坏主意

is that I don't think that's how

是因为我不相信

our concept of religion works.

我们这个寻找宗教定义的方法会起作用。

I think the way our concept of religion works

我认为我们对宗教的定义之所以起作用

is that we actually have, we have a list

实际上是因为我们列了一张

of paradigm religions

宗教变化表

and their sub-parts, right,

以及其分支，对吧，

and if something new comes along

如果出现了什么新的东西，

that purports to be a religion,

而他们又打算把自己划入宗教范畴内，

what we ask is, "Well, is it like one of these?"

我们就会问，“看，它们是不是和现存的那些很像呢？”

Right?

”不是吗？“

And I think that's not only how we think about religion,

我想，这不是仅仅关于我们对宗教怎么看，

and that's, as it were,

而是，

so from our point of view,

仅从我个人观点来讲，

anything on that list had better be a religion,

我们认为那张清单上的每个名字最好都能是一种宗教，

which is why I don't think an account of religion

这也就是为什么我不认为排除了

that excludes Buddhism and Judaism

佛教和犹太教的宗教定义

has a chance of being a good starter,

不是一个好的开始，

because they're on our list.

因为它们的名字已经在我们的名单上了。

But why do we have such a list?

但是，为什么我们会有这样的一个名单呢？

What's going on? How did it come about

究竟发生了什么事？我们究竟是如何创造出

that we have this list?

这个名单的呢？

I think the answer is a pretty simple one

我认为，答案是非常简单的，

and therefore crude and contentious.

同时也是粗糙且富有争议的。

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with it,

我相信很多人都不会同意我的看法，

but here's my story,

但是，这是我的故事，

and true or not, it's a story that I think

无论对错，我认为这个故事

gives you a good sense of how

都可以给大家一个关于这份清单的来历的

the list might have come about,

好的启发，

and therefore helps you to think about

因为可以帮大家明白

what use the list might be.

这份清单的作用究竟是什么。

I think the answer is, European travelers,

我认为答案就是，欧洲的探险家们，

starting roughly about the time of Columbus,

在大约哥伦布时期

started going around the world.

开始周游全世界。

They came from a Christian culture,

他们所信仰的某个基督文化，

and when they arrived in a new place,

当他们到达一个新地方以后，

they noticed that some people didn't have Christianity,

他们就发现当地的一些人并没有信仰基督教，

and so they asked themselves the following question:

因而他们问了自己以下的一个问题：

what have they got instead of Christianity?

如果他们不信基督教，那他们信什么呢？

And that list was essentially constructed.

就这样，那份清单一点点建立出来了。

It consists of the things that other people had

它包含了那些不信基督教的人

instead of Christianity.

用什么其他信仰来代替基督教。

Now there's a difficulty with proceeding in that way,

但是，用这种方式继续进行下去面临着一些问题，

which is that Christianity is extremely,

因为基督教是非常特殊的，

even on that list, it's an extremely specific tradition.

即便是在这份清单里，它的传统惯例也是很特别的。

It has all kinds of things in it

基督教里所存在的东西

that are very, very particular

都是非常非常特别的，

that are the results of the specifics

因为它们都是基督教历史的

of Christian history,

特定产物。

and one thing that's at the heart of it,

在基督教中处于核心的东西，

one thing that's at the heart of most understandings of Christianity,

也就是基督教的核心教义，

which is the result of the specific history of Christianity,

都是基督教历史的特定产物。

is that it's an extremely creedal religion.

这是一个有着极其严重的教条主义的宗教

It's a religion in which people are really concerned

这个宗教的人们真正关心的是

about whether you believe the right things.

你是否信仰正确的东西。

The history of Christianity, the internal history of Christianity,

基督教的历史，基督教的内部历史，

is largely the history of people killing each other

其实大部分讲的都是人们之间的互相残杀，

because they believed the wrong thing,

因为他们没有信仰正确的东西。

and it's also involved in

当然，这其中也包括

struggles with other religions,

与其他宗教的争端，

obviously starting in the Middle Ages,

这些争端明显始于中世纪时期，

a struggle with Islam,

与伊斯兰教的争端，

in which, again, it was the infidelity,

又是因为无神与有神的争辩，

the fact that they didn't believe the right things,

认为他们没有信仰正确的事物

that seemed so offensive to the Christian world.

这对基督教的世界是一种严重的冒犯。

Now that's a very specific and particular history

当然，那是基督教非常特别的

that Christianity has,

历史故事，

and not everywhere is everything

但是，没有任何地方的任何事情

that has ever been put on this sort of list like it.

是像基督教一样被列到这个清单中的。

Here's another problem, I think.

接下来，我认为还有另一个问题。

A very specific thing happened.

发生了一件特殊的事情。

It was actually adverted to earlier,

其实我们前面有提到过这个问题，

but a very specific thing happened

一件非常特殊的事情发生在

in the history of the kind of Christianity

基督教的历史中，

that we see around us

这个历史是被我们

mostly in the United States today,

现代美国人所熟知的。

and it happened in the late 19th century,

这件事情发生在十九世纪后期，

and that specific thing that happened

这件在十九世纪

in the late 19th century

发生的重要的事

was a kind of deal that was cut

就是一个切断

between science,

与科学之间联系，

this new way of organizing intellectual authority,

这是一个管理知识权威（科学）

and religion.

与宗教的新手段。

If you think about the 18th century, say,

你设想一下十八世纪，

if you think about intellectual life

如果你设想一下

before the late 19th century,

十九世纪以前的知识界，

anything you did, anything you thought about,

所有你做的事，你想的事，

whether it was the physical world,

无论它是属于物理界，

the human world,

人类社会，

the natural world apart from the human world,

除了人类社会以外的自然界，

or morality, anything you did

或者是伦理道德方面，所有你做的事

would have been framed against the background

都会被当时的社会背景中的条条框框所限制住，

of a set of assumptions that were religious,

也就是宗教的背景，

Christian assumptions.

基督教的背景。

You couldn't give an account

你不可能在当时的世界中

of the natural world

提出一个观点

that didn't say something about its relationship,

却又不解释它与宗教、基督教之间的联系，

for example, to the creation story

例如，与亚伯拉罕故事中的

in the Abrahamic tradition,

创世纪，

the creation story in the first book of the Torah.

创世纪是犹太律法书的第一卷。

So everything was framed in that way.

所以说，所有事都要按照这个限制展开，

But this changes in the late 19th century,

但是在十九世纪末期发生的改变，

and for the first time, it's possible for people

第一次，使人们有可能

to develop serious intellectual careers

建立起严谨的知识领域

as natural historians like Darwin.

以及出现像达尔文这样的自然历史学家。

Darwin worried about the relationship between

达尔文担心他所说的话

what he said and the truths of religion,

与宗教给人们输入的事实之间的冲突，

but he could proceed, he could write books

但是他还是可以继续进行自己的研究，

about his subject

他可以写有关他研究内容的书籍，

without having to say what the relationship was

而不用解释他的研究内容与

to the religious claims,

宗教教义之间的关系，

and similarly, geologists increasingly could talk about it.

同理，地质学家们也在逐渐的谈论他们的发现。

In the early 19th century, if you were a geologist

在十九世纪初期，如果你是一个地质学家

and made a claim about the age of the Earth,

你发表了关于地球年龄的言论，

you had to explain whether that was consistent

你需要解释，地球是不是一直存在的，

or how it was or wasn't consistent

它是如何一直存在或者不存在的，

with the age of the Earth implied

因为在《创世纪》中已经

by the account in Genesis.

阐述过了地球的年龄。

By the end of the 19th century,

在十九世纪末期，

you can just write a geology textbook

你可以写一些有关地质学的教科书，

in which you make arguments about how old the Earth is.

在里面你可以讨论旧时的地球是什么样的。

So there's a big change, and that division,

这是一个非常大的改变，这种分离，

that intellectual division of labor occurs as I say, I think,

这种智慧与劳动力的分离，我认为，

and it sort of solidifies so that by the end

在十九世纪末期的欧洲

of the 19th century in Europe,

得到了加深。

there's a real intellectual division of labor,

因为那时候出现了真正的智力与劳动力的分离，

and you can do all sorts of serious things,

你可以做各种各样严谨的研究，

including, increasingly, even philosophy,

其中包括各种各样的领域，甚至包括哲学，

without being constrained by the thought,

而且不用被当时的思想所禁锢：

"Well, what I have to say has to be consistent

“我所说的话必须始终如一的

with the deep truths that are given to me

贯穿在宗教传统教义的

by our religious tradition."

真理中。”

So imagine someone who's coming out

所以 ，大家想象一下如果谁走出了那个世界，

of that world, that late-19th-century world,

也就是十九世纪的末期的那个世界，

coming into the country that I grew up in, Ghana,

来到了我长大的地方，加纳，

the society that I grew up in, Asante,

来到了我长大的社会阿桑特

coming into that world

进入这个社会以后，

at the turn of the 20th century

来到二十世纪的转折点，

with this question that made the list:

带着以下的这些问题：

what have they got instead of Christianity?

他们用什么信仰代替了基督教？

Well, here's one thing he would have noticed,

这有一件事是值得我们大家注意的，

and by the way, there was a person who actually did this.

顺便说一下，真的有人这么做了。

His name was Captain Rattray,

他就是拉特雷上尉，

he was sent as the British government anthropologist,

他作为英国政府特派的一名人类学家来到了阿桑特，

and he wrote a book about Asante religion.

并写了一本有关阿桑特的宗教信仰的书。

This is a soul disc.

这是一个灵魂唱片，

There are many of them in the British Museum.

因为阿桑特的的许多东西都保留在大英博物馆里。

I could give you an interesting, different history

我可以给大家讲一个有趣而又与众不同的历史故事，

of how it comes about that many of the things

关于为什么很多

from my society ended up in the British Museum,

属于我成长的社会的事物最终会被保留在大英博物馆里，

but we don't have time for that.

但是由于时间的原因我就不给大家讲了。

So this object is a soul disc.

但是，这是一张灵魂唱片。

What is a soul disc?

那么什么是灵魂唱片呢？

It was worn around the necks

这是阿桑特国王挂在脖子上

of the soul-washers of the Asante king.

用来净化灵魂所使用的。

What was their job? To wash the king's soul.

他们的工作是什么呢？是净化国王的灵魂。

It would take a long while

要是解释灵魂怎么会

to explain how a soul could be the kind of thing

成为一件可以被净化的东西

that could be washed,

可能要花费很长一段时间，

but Rattray knew that this was religion

但是，拉特雷认为这就是宗教

because souls were in play.

因为其中有灵魂这个重要因素的参与。

And similarly,

与此相似的

there were many other things, many other practices.

还有很多其他的事情，其他的事实。

For example, every time anybody had a drink, more or less,

例如，每次有人喝酒时，无论是多是少，

they poured a little bit on the ground

他们都会倒一点到地上，

in what's called the libation,

他们叫这种仪式为奠酒祭神，

and they gave some to the ancestors.

为的是将酒倒给祖先一些。

My father did this. Every time he opened a bottle of whiskey,

我的父亲每次打开一瓶新的威士忌时都会这么做，

which I'm glad to say was very often,

我很高兴的是，他经常会开新的酒喝，

he would take the top off and pour off just a little on the ground,

他会倒一点点在地上。

and he would talk to,

然后他会说话，

he would say to Akroma-Ampim, the founder of our line,

他会与我们的祖先Akroma-Ampim说话，

or Yao Antony, my great uncle,

或者与我的祖叔叔安东尼·姚说话，

he would talk to them,

他与他们说话，

offer them a little bit of this.

同时给他们倒一些酒。

And finally, there were these huge public ceremonials.

最后，我要说的是一些宏大的公共仪式。

This is an early-19th-century drawing

这是一幅十九世纪早期由

by another British military officer

另一位英国军官所画的画，

of such a ceremonial,

画中主要描述了这样的一个仪式，

where the king was involved,

国王也参与到了这个仪式当中，

and the king's job,

而且这就是他工作的一部分，

one of the large parts of his job,

也是很大的一部分，

apart from organizing warfare and things like that,

他的工作除了组织战争这类事情之外，

was to look after the tombs of his ancestors,

就是看好祖先的墓地。

and when a king died,

当国王死后，

the stool that he sat on was blackened

他所坐的椅子会被涂黑，

and put in the royal ancestral temple,

放到皇家陵庙中。

and every 40 days,

每隔四十天，

the King of Asante has to go and do cult

阿桑特的国王都要去陵庙祭祀

for his ancestors.

祖先。

That's a large part of his job,

这是他工作中很大的一部分，

and people think that if he doesn't do it,

而且人们认为如果他不这样做，

things will fall apart.

所有的事情都会分崩瓦解。

So he's a religious figure,

所以，他是一个宗教领袖，

as Rattray would have said,

就像拉特雷说的那样，

as well as a political figure.

他同时也是一个政治领袖。

So all this would count as religion for Rattray,

这一切对于拉特雷来说都是宗教的一种表现，

but my point is that when you look

但是我认为当你看到

into the lives of those people,

这的人是如何生活的时候，

you also find that every time they do anything,

你也会发现每当他们要做什么事的时候，

they're conscious of the ancestors.

都会想着他们的祖先。

Every morning at breakfast,

每一顿早餐，

you can go outside the front of the house

你都要来到房子的前面

and make an offering to the god tree, the nyame dua

给你的家院子里的尼阿美圣树

outside your house,

献上祭品。

and again, you'll talk to the gods

同时，你也要和神灵们讲话，

and the high gods and the low gods

无论是是位高的神还是位低的神，你都要和他们讲话，

and the ancestors and so on.

也要和祖先们讲话。

This is not a world

这不是一个

in which the separation between religion and science

宗教与科学相分离的社会

has occurred.

会发生的事情。

Religion has not being separated

在这个社会中，只要有生命的存在，

from any other areas of life,

就会有宗教的产生。

and in particular,

特别要提出的是，

what's crucial to understand about this world

对于想要理解这个社会很重要的一点是，

is that it's a world in which the job

这个社会中的工作，

that science does for us

也就是本应由科学提供给我们的工作，

is done by what Rattray is going to call religion,

却是由拉特雷口中的宗教创造的，

because if they want an explanation of something,

因为如果他们想要一个事物的解释，

if they want to know why the crop just failed,

如果他们想要知道为什么庄稼收成不好，

if they want to know why it's raining

如果他们想要知道为什么会下雨，

or not raining, if they need rain,

或者当他们需要雨时，他们会问为什么还不下雨，

if they want to know why

如果他们想要知道为什么

their grandfather has died,

他们的祖父会死去，

they are going to appeal to the very same entities,

他们会用同一种方式寻求答案，

the very same language,

用同一种语言寻求助，

talk to the very same gods about that.

向同样的神求助。

This great separation, in other words,

换句话说，这个社会并没有发生

between religion and science hasn't happened.

宗教与科学之间的巨大分离。

Now, this would be a mere historical curiosity,

现在，这也许仅仅是一件历史趣事，

except that in large parts of the world,

但其实上，在世界上绝大一部分地区，

this is still the truth.

这都是事实。

I had the privilege of going to a wedding

有一次，我有幸参加一个

the other day in northern Namibia,

在北纳米比亚举行的婚礼，

20 miles or so south of the Angolan border

这是在英格拉边界向南20英里处的

in a village of 200 people.

一个居住着200人的小村庄。

These were modern people.

这些都是现代人。

We had with us Oona Chaplin,

和我们在一起的一个人叫奥娜·卓别林，

who some of you may have heard of,

也许在座的各位中也许有人听过她的名字，

and one of the people from this village came up to her,

村庄中的一个找到了她，

and said, "I've seen you in 'Game of Thrones.'"

和她说，“我看到过你在《权利游戏》中的表演。”

So these were not people who were isolated from our world,

所以说，这些人不是过着与世隔绝的生活，

but nevertheless, for them,

但是，对于他们来说，

the gods and the spirits are still very much there,

神灵和精神仍然是他们生活中非常重要的部分。

and when we were on the bus going back and forth

当我们乘坐公共汽车在各种

to the various parts of the [ceremony],

活动中来来回回的时候，

they prayed not just in a generic way

我们发现，他们并不是笼统的祷告一些事，

but for the safety of the journey,

而是专门祈祷旅途安全，

and they meant it,

而且他们是很认真的，

and when they said to me that my mother,

当他们和我说，我的母亲，

the bridegroom's [grandmother],

也就是新郎的“祖母”，

was with us, they didn't mean it figuratively.

和我们在一起，他们不是指一个象征的意义，

They meant, even though she was a dead person,

他们是真心的觉得即便她过世了，

they meant that she was still around.

但是她还在他们身边。

So in large parts of the world today,

所以，在当今世界的大多数地方，

that separation between science and religion

宗教和科学的分离

hasn't occurred in large parts of the world today,

并没有发生。

and as I say, these are not --

就像我说的，这些人并不是----

This guy used to work for Chase and at the World Bank.

这个人曾经在大通银行和世界银行工作过。

These are fellow citizens of the world with you,

他们是与你我一样的世界公民，

but they come from a place in which religion

只不过他们所生活的地方

is occupying a very different role.

宗教所扮演的角色和我们不同。

So what I want you to think about next time somebody wants

所以我希望在下次有人试着

to make some vast generalization about religion

将不同宗教看成同一类东西时，

is that maybe there isn't such a thing

大家可以思考一下，也许宗教并不存在，

as a religion, such a thing as religion,

没有宗教这种东西，

and that therefore what they say

所以他们说的那些话

cannot possibly be true.

都不可能是事实。

(Applause)

（掌声）