Kwame Anthony Appiah: Is religion good or bad? (This is a trick question)

Translator: Laksmi Wijayanti Reviewer: Prameswari Rahmanu

People say things about religion all the time.

Orang berbicara tentang agama setiap saat.

(Laughter)

(Tawa)

The late, great Christopher Hitchens

Almarhum Christoper Hitchens menulis buku

wrote a book called "God Is Not Great"

whose subtitle was, "Religion Poisons Everything."

"Tuhan Tidaklah Hebat,"

disertai keterangan, "Agama Meracuni Segalanya."

(Laughter)

(Tawa)

But last month, in Time magazine,

Tapi bulan kemarin, Rabbi David Wolpe,

Rabbi David Wolpe, who I gather is referred to as America's rabbi,

yang dijuluki rabbi dari Amerika, diwawancara oleh majalah Time,

said, to balance that against that negative characterization,

berkata bahwa untuk menyeimbangkan sisi negatif dari agama tersebut,

that no important form of social change

tidak ada satu perubahan sosial yang berarti

can be brought about except through organized religion.

yang dapat dibuat selain oleh organisasi agama.

Now, remarks of this sort on the negative

Seruan mengenai sisi-sisi negatif

and the positive side are very old.

dan positif dari agama semacam ini bukanlah hal baru.

I have one in my pocket here

Di dalam kantung saya sekarang ini

from the first century BCE by Lucretius,

ada kutipan dari Lucretius dari abad kesatu S.M.,

the author of "On the Nature of Things," who said,

yang menulis "On the Nature of Things":

"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" --

"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" --

I should have been able to learn that by heart —

seharusnya saya sudah hafal kata-kata ini --

which is, that's how much religion

yang berarti, sampai sejauh inilah agama

is able to persuade people to do evil,

mampu memanipulasi orang untuk melakukan kejahatan,

and he was talking about the fact

dan beliau berbicara mengenai fakta bahwa Agamemnon mengorbankan putrinya,

of Agamemnon's decision to place his daughter

Iphigenia on an altar of sacrifice

Iphigenia, di atas altar, agar tentaranya sukses di dalam perang.

in order to preserve the prospects of his army.

So there have been these long debates

Selama berabad-abad, bahkan lebih dari satu milenia,

over the centuries, in that case, actually,

orang berdebat panjang lebar mengenai agama.

we can say over the millennia, about religion.

People have talked about it a lot,

Ini merupakan topik yang sering sekali muncul,

and they've said good and bad

baik dari sisi positif maupun negatif, juga dari sisi netral.

and indifferent things about it.

What I want to persuade you of today

Saya ingin meyakinkan Anda hari ini akan sebuah penuturan sederhana.

is of a very simple claim,

which is that these debates are

Semua debat mengenai agama ini terasa sangat konyol,

in a certain sense preposterous,

because there is no such thing as religion

karena tidak ada satu agama pun yang dapat diperdebatkan.

about which to make these claims.

There isn't a thing called religion,

Agama tidaklah ada,

and so it can't be good or bad.

jadi kita tidak dapat berkata agama itu positif, negatif,

It can't even be indifferent.

ataupun netral.

And if you think about claims

Sementara argumen mengenai hal-hal yang tidaklah ada,

about the nonexistence of things,

one obvious way to try and establish

satu cara yang jelas-jelas dapat dipakai

the nonexistence of a purported thing

untuk mencoba dan mengukuhkan argumen tersebut

would be to offer a definition of that thing

adalah dengan mendefinisikan hal tersebut

and then to see whether anything satisfied it.

dan melihat apakah definisi tersebut tepat.

I'm going to start out on that little route

Saya akan memberi contoh dengan cara ini.

to begin with.

So if you look in the dictionaries

Apabila Anda cek di kamus dan coba pikirkan,

and if you think about it,

one very natural definition of religion

satu definisi alamiah dari agama

is that it involves belief in gods or in spiritual beings.

ialah yang melibatkan kepercayaan akan dewa-dewi atau hal-hal spiritual.

As I say, this is in many dictionaries,

Ini menurut kamus kebanyakan.

but you'll also find it actually

Tapi Anda dapat menemukan definisi yang sama dalam karya Sir Edward Tylor,

in the work of Sir Edward Tylor,

who was the first professor of anthropology at Oxford,

profesor Antropologi pertama di Oxford dan seorang antropologis modern pertama.

one of the first modern anthropologists.

In his book on primitive culture,

Dalam bukunya mengenai budaya primitif,

he says the heart of religion is what he called animism,

beliau menulis bahwa inti dari agama ialah animisme,

that is, the belief in spiritual agency,

yaitu kepercayaan akan hal-hal spiritual, yaitu roh-roh.

belief in spirits.

The first problem for that definition

Masalahnya,

is from a recent novel by Paul Beatty called "Tuff."

dalam novel modern karya Paul Beatty yang berjudul "Tuff,"

There's a guy talking to a rabbi.

ada seorang rabbi yang tidak percaya adanya Tuhan.

The rabbi says he doesn't believe in God.

The guy says, "You're a rabbi, how can you not believe in God?"

Ketika ditanya mengapa seorang Ateis menjadi rabbi,

And the reply is, "It's what's so great about being Jewish.

si Rabbi menjawab, "Inilah enaknya menjadi Yahudi.

You don't have to believe in a God per se,

Anda tidak harus percaya Tuhan hanya karena Anda seorang Yahudi." (Tawa)

just in being Jewish." (Laughter)

So if this guy is a rabbi, and a Jewish rabbi,

Jika menjadi seorang rabbi Yahudi memerlukan kepercayaan akan Tuhan

and if you have to believe in God in order to be religious,

untuk menjadi religius

then we have the rather counterintuitive conclusion

maka terjadilah pertentangan karena dalam kasus ini,

that since it's possible to be a Jewish rabbi

seorang Yahudi bisa menjadi rabbi meski ia Ateis.

without believing in God,

Judaism isn't a religion.

Yahudi bukanlah agama.

That seems like a pretty counterintuitive thought.

Ini merupakan konsep yang bertentangan.

Here's another argument against this view.

Ada pula argumen lain.

A friend of mine, an Indian friend of mine,

Seorang teman India saya menemui kakeknya ketika beliau masih kecil dan berkata,

went to his grandfather when he was very young,

a child, and said to him,

"I want to talk to you about religion,"

"Saya ingin berbicara mengenai agama."

and his grandfather said, "You're too young.

Namun kata kakeknya ia terlalu muda.

Come back when you're a teenager."

So he came back when he was a teenager,

Maka teman saya kembali saat remaja, dan ia berkata,

and he said to his grandfather,

"It may be a bit late now

"Saya sekarang Ateis, jadi sudah terlambat untuk berbincang-bincang."

because I've discovered that I don't believe in the gods."

And his grandfather, who was a wise man, said,

Dan dengan bijak kakeknya berkata,

"Oh, so you belong to the atheist branch

"Oh jadi kamu adalah seorang ateis dari aliran tradisi Hindu."

of the Hindu tradition." (Laughter)

(Tawa)

And finally, there's this guy,

Ada juga seorang pria yang terkenal sebagai Ateis, yaitu Dalai Lama.

who famously doesn't believe in God.

His name is the Dalai Lama.

He often jokes that he's one of the world's leading atheists.

Yang sering bercanda dan berkata ia pemuka kaum Ateis.

But it's true, because the Dalai Lama's religion

Tapi ini memang benar karena agama beliau tidak mencakup kepercayaan akan Tuhan.

does not involve belief in God.

Now you might think this just shows

Mungkin Anda berpikir bahwa

that I've given you the wrong definition

saya telah memberikan Anda definisi yang salah

and that I should come up with some other definition

dan seharusnya saya menggunakan definisi lain

and test it against these cases

untuk mengkontradiksi kasus-kasus serupa mengenai

and try and find something that captures

atheistic Judaism, atheistic Hinduism,

ateisme Yahudi, ateisme Hindu, dan ateisme Buddha

and atheistic Buddhism as forms of religiosity,

untuk dikategorikan sebagai agama juga.

but I actually think that that's a bad idea,

Namun menurut saya itu ide yang buruk.

and the reason I think it's a bad idea

Alasannya adalah karena menurut saya konsep agama tidaklah demikian.

is that I don't think that's how

our concept of religion works.

I think the way our concept of religion works

Menurut saya, konsep keagamaan yang sebenarnya

is that we actually have, we have a list

mencakup daftar agama yang berparadigma dan denominasi-denominasinya,

of paradigm religions

and their sub-parts, right,

and if something new comes along

dan jika ada kepercayaan baru yang muncul seperti agama,

that purports to be a religion,

what we ask is, "Well, is it like one of these?"

kita bertanya apakah ada kemiripan dengan agama-agama ini. Ya, kan?

Right?

And I think that's not only how we think about religion,

Dan ini bukan sekadar konsep kita akan agama,

and that's, as it were,

dimana, menurut kita, setelah sekian lama, daftar ini adalah agama-agama yang sah;

so from our point of view,

anything on that list had better be a religion,

which is why I don't think an account of religion

karenanya mungkin agama baru, kecuali agama Buddha dan Yahudi,

that excludes Buddhism and Judaism

has a chance of being a good starter,

dapat menjadi agama yang "sah",

because they're on our list.

selain kedua agama tersebut yang ada di daftar ini.

But why do we have such a list?

Tapi mengapa kita memiliki daftar ini?

What's going on? How did it come about

Apa asal muasal dari daftar semacam ini?

that we have this list?

I think the answer is a pretty simple one

Menurut saya jawabannya sangatlah sederhana,

and therefore crude and contentious.

dan bahkan masih mentah dan kontroversial,

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with it,

but here's my story,

tapi inilah kisah saya dan entah benar atau tidak,

and true or not, it's a story that I think

cerita ini dapat menggambarkan dari mana asal muasal daftar ini,

gives you a good sense of how

the list might have come about,

and therefore helps you to think about

sehingga anda dapat berpikir lebih jauh akan kegunaan daftar ini.

what use the list might be.

I think the answer is, European travelers,

Menurut saya, jawabannya bermula di para pelancong Eropa

starting roughly about the time of Columbus,

dari era saat Columbus mulai mengelilingi dunia.

started going around the world.

They came from a Christian culture,

Mereka dibesarkan dengan tradisi Kristen,

and when they arrived in a new place,

dan saat mereka tiba di tempat baru,

they noticed that some people didn't have Christianity,

mereka melihat orang-orang lokal tidak beragama Kristen.

and so they asked themselves the following question:

Maka mereka mulai bertanya-tanya:

what have they got instead of Christianity?

Agama apa yang mereka peluk selain agama Kristen?

And that list was essentially constructed.

Maka daftar tersebut dibuat.

It consists of the things that other people had

Daftar tersebut berisi agama-agama asing selain agama Kristen.

instead of Christianity.

Now there's a difficulty with proceeding in that way,

Nah, kesulitannya berawal dari sini:

which is that Christianity is extremely,

Kekristenan, bahkan dalam daftar tersebut, merupakan tradisi yang sangat spesifik.

even on that list, it's an extremely specific tradition.

It has all kinds of things in it

Di dalamnya terkandung banyak hal yang sangat, sangat spesifik

that are very, very particular

that are the results of the specifics

yang merupakan hasil dari sejarah panjang agama Kristen.

of Christian history,

and one thing that's at the heart of it,

dan inti dari agama ini,

one thing that's at the heart of most understandings of Christianity,

inti pemahaman Kekristenan yang paling mendasar,

which is the result of the specific history of Christianity,

yang telah melalui sejarah demikian panjangnya,

is that it's an extremely creedal religion.

adalah kepercayaannya yang kuat.

It's a religion in which people are really concerned

Bagi para pengikutnya, mempercayai hal yang benar sangatlah penting.

about whether you believe the right things.

The history of Christianity, the internal history of Christianity,

Sejarah dari kekristenan itu sendiri penuh dengan pembunuhan

is largely the history of people killing each other

because they believed the wrong thing,

karena kepercayaan akan hal-hal yang berbeda.

and it's also involved in

Sejarah mereka juga dipenuhi dengan konflik dengan agama-agama lain,

struggles with other religions,

obviously starting in the Middle Ages,

yang jelas-jelas dimulai di Abad Pertengahan:

a struggle with Islam,

konflik dengan agama Islam,

in which, again, it was the infidelity,

yang lagi-lagi berhubungan dengan kepercayaan kaum Muslim yang berbeda,

the fact that they didn't believe the right things,

that seemed so offensive to the Christian world.

yang dirasa telah menyinggung dunia kekristenan.

Now that's a very specific and particular history

Sejarah kekristenan sedemikian spesifik dan istimewa,

that Christianity has,

and not everywhere is everything

dan belum tentu kita dapat menemukan hal serupa di dalam daftar kita.

that has ever been put on this sort of list like it.

Here's another problem, I think.

Ada pula masalah lain.

A very specific thing happened.

Sesuatu yang istimewa terjadi di masa lalu

It was actually adverted to earlier,

but a very specific thing happened

tapi ini terjadi dalam sejarah kekristenan yang kita lihat di sekitar kita.

in the history of the kind of Christianity

that we see around us

mostly in the United States today,

Kebanyakan di Amerika Serikat masa sekarang.

and it happened in the late 19th century,

Ini terjadi di akhir abad ke-19.

and that specific thing that happened

Hal istimewa yang terjadi di akhir abad 19

in the late 19th century

was a kind of deal that was cut

adalah adanya pemisahan antara ilmu pengetahuan dan agama,

between science,

this new way of organizing intellectual authority,

melalui pengorganisasian otoritas intelektual dengan cara baru.

and religion.

If you think about the 18th century, say,

Apabila kita melihat ke abad 18,

if you think about intellectual life

misalnya mengenai cendekiawan sebelum akhir abad 19,

before the late 19th century,

anything you did, anything you thought about,

segala sesuatu yang Anda lakukan dan pikirkan,

whether it was the physical world,

baik tentang dunia nyata, dunia manusia,

the human world,

dan dunia alam terlepas dari dunia manusia,

the natural world apart from the human world,

or morality, anything you did

ataupun moralitas,

semuanya selalu dikontekstualisasikan dengan asumsi-asumsi yang religius,

would have been framed against the background

of a set of assumptions that were religious,

Christian assumptions.

asumsi-asumsi kekristenan.

You couldn't give an account

Anda tidak dapat berbicara mengenai alam semesta tanpa menghubungkannya,

of the natural world

that didn't say something about its relationship,

misalnya dengan kisah penciptaan yang dimulai dari tradisi Abraham

for example, to the creation story

in the Abrahamic tradition,

the creation story in the first book of the Torah.

sampai ke kisah penciptaan dalam buku pertama Torah.

So everything was framed in that way.

Semua hal selalu ditempatkan dalam konteks serupa.

But this changes in the late 19th century,

Namun hal ini berubah di akhir abad 19.

and for the first time, it's possible for people

Untuk pertama kalinya, orang-orang dapat menempuh jalur karir intelektual

to develop serious intellectual careers

as natural historians like Darwin.

secara serius sebagai ilmuwan seperti Darwin.

Darwin worried about the relationship between

Darwin mengkhawatirkan adanya koneksi

what he said and the truths of religion,

antara perkataannya dengan kebenaran versi agama,

but he could proceed, he could write books

namun beliau dapat terus menulis buku mengenai subyeknya,

about his subject

without having to say what the relationship was

tanpa harus menghubungkannya dengan klaim-klaim agama.

to the religious claims,

and similarly, geologists increasingly could talk about it.

Hal yang sama terjadi juga pada kaum geologis.

In the early 19th century, if you were a geologist

Di awal abad 19, sebagai geologis yang ingin menakar usia bumi ini,

and made a claim about the age of the Earth,

you had to explain whether that was consistent

Anda harus menjelaskan apa atau bagaimana klaim anda sejalan dengan usia bumi

or how it was or wasn't consistent

with the age of the Earth implied

by the account in Genesis.

di kitab Kejadian.

By the end of the 19th century,

Di akhir abad 19,

you can just write a geology textbook

Anda dapat menulis buku dan sekadar menjelaskan usia bumi kita ini.

in which you make arguments about how old the Earth is.

So there's a big change, and that division,

Maka terjadilah pembagian ini,

that intellectual division of labor occurs as I say, I think,

pemisahan di bidang intelektual, dan menurut saya hal ini terkukuhkan

and it sort of solidifies so that by the end

sehingga di akhir abad 19 di Eropa, pemisahan kaum cendekiawan terjadi,

of the 19th century in Europe,

there's a real intellectual division of labor,

and you can do all sorts of serious things,

dan Anda dapat melakukan berbagai hal termasuk berfilosofi

including, increasingly, even philosophy,

without being constrained by the thought,

tanpa dibatasi oleh pemikiran,

"Well, what I have to say has to be consistent

"Apa yang akan saya katakan harus sejalan dengan kebenaran yang

with the deep truths that are given to me

by our religious tradition."

So imagine someone who's coming out

Jadi bayangkan saja seseorang yang berasal dari dunia semacam itu,

of that world, that late-19th-century world,

coming into the country that I grew up in, Ghana,

kemudian memasuki negara asal saya, Ghana,

the society that I grew up in, Asante,

di Asante, lingkungan darimana saya dibesarkan.

coming into that world

Mereka memasuki dunia asing di pergantian abad ke-20 dengan pertanyaan:

at the turn of the 20th century

with this question that made the list:

what have they got instead of Christianity?

"Apa yang mereka peluk selain agama Kristen?"

Well, here's one thing he would have noticed,

Inilah satu hal yang akan ia perhatikan,

and by the way, there was a person who actually did this.

dan memang sudah ada orang yang melakukannya,

His name was Captain Rattray,

yaitu Kapten Rattray, antropolog yang diutus pemerintah Inggris,

he was sent as the British government anthropologist,

and he wrote a book about Asante religion.

dan ia menulis buku mengenai agama Asante.

This is a soul disc.

Ini adalah lempengan soul disc.

There are many of them in the British Museum.

Ada banyak koleksi serupa di British Museum.

I could give you an interesting, different history

Saya dapat menjabarkan bagaimana barang-barang serupa dari komunitas saya

of how it comes about that many of the things

from my society ended up in the British Museum,

sampai berada di British Museum,

but we don't have time for that.

tapi kita tidak punya waktu.

So this object is a soul disc.

Ini adalah lempengan soul disc.

What is a soul disc?

Apa itu soul disc?

It was worn around the necks

Lempengan ini dikalungkan di leher para pencuci-jiwa raja-raja Asante.

of the soul-washers of the Asante king.

What was their job? To wash the king's soul.

Mereka menyucikan jiwa raja-raja.

It would take a long while

Untuk menjelaskan mengapa jiwa dapat disucikan akan cukup lama,

to explain how a soul could be the kind of thing

that could be washed,

but Rattray knew that this was religion

namun Rattray tahu ini adalah agama lokal,

because souls were in play.

dengan melihat korelasinya dengan jiwa orang-orang.

And similarly,

Dan ada banyak hal lain, banyak praktek keagamaan lain yang serupa.

there were many other things, many other practices.

For example, every time anybody had a drink, more or less,

Misalnya acap kali seseorang minum,

they poured a little bit on the ground

mereka menumpahkan sedikit air di tanah sebagai air persembahan bagi para leluhur.

in what's called the libation,

and they gave some to the ancestors.

My father did this. Every time he opened a bottle of whiskey,

Ayah saya melakukannya.

Sering kali saat beliau membuka botol wiski,

which I'm glad to say was very often,

he would take the top off and pour off just a little on the ground,

ia akan menuang sedikit wiski di lantai,

and he would talk to,

dan ia akan berbicara pada Akroma-Ampim, leluhur kami yang pertama,

he would say to Akroma-Ampim, the founder of our line,

or Yao Antony, my great uncle,

atau Yao Antony, paman buyut saya.

he would talk to them,

Beliau akan berbicara pada mereka dan menawarkan sedikit wiski.

offer them a little bit of this.

And finally, there were these huge public ceremonials.

Ada pula upacara publik besar-besaran.

This is an early-19th-century drawing

Ini merupakan lukisan upacara itu dari awal abad 19

by another British military officer

of such a ceremonial,

yang dibuat oleh seorang tentara Inggris.

where the king was involved,

Upacara ini melibatkan raja dan tugas raja,

and the king's job,

salah satu tugas penting raja selain merencanakan perang dan semacamnya,

one of the large parts of his job,

apart from organizing warfare and things like that,

was to look after the tombs of his ancestors,

adalah menjaga makam para leluhurnya,

and when a king died,

dan ketika sang raja mangkat,

the stool that he sat on was blackened

tempat duduknya dicat hitam dan ditaruh di kuil leluhur para raja.

and put in the royal ancestral temple,

and every 40 days,

Setiap 40 hari Raja Asante harus melakukan ritual untuk leluhurnya.

the King of Asante has to go and do cult

for his ancestors.

That's a large part of his job,

Itu merupakan tugas pentingnya.

and people think that if he doesn't do it,

Orang-orang berpikir apabila ia lalai,

things will fall apart.

bencana akan terjadi.

So he's a religious figure,

Karenanya raja adalah pemuka agama dan pemerintah, seperti klaim Rattray.

as Rattray would have said,

as well as a political figure.

So all this would count as religion for Rattray,

Maka menurut Rattray ini adalah agama,

but my point is that when you look

tapi saat anda tengok kehidupan mereka,

into the lives of those people,

you also find that every time they do anything,

anda dapat melihat betapa terlbatnya para leluhur

they're conscious of the ancestors.

dalam setiap kegiatan mereka.

Every morning at breakfast,

Setiap pagi saat sarapan,

you can go outside the front of the house

Anda dapat pergi ke depan rumah

and make an offering to the god tree, the nyame dua

dan mempersembahkan sesaji ke dewa pohon, Nyame Dua,

outside your house,

dan berbincang dengan mereka,

and again, you'll talk to the gods

and the high gods and the low gods

dengan dewa tertinggi dan terendah, juga para leluhur.

and the ancestors and so on.

This is not a world

Ini bukanlah dunia dimana agama dan sains telah terpisahkan.

in which the separation between religion and science

has occurred.

Religion has not being separated

Agama belumlah terpisahkan dari aspek-aspek kehidupan,

from any other areas of life,

and in particular,

dan terlebih lagi,

what's crucial to understand about this world

hal penting yang harus dimengerti tentang dunia itu adalah

is that it's a world in which the job

peran sains di sini diambil alih oleh apa yang disebut Rattray sebagai agama.

that science does for us

is done by what Rattray is going to call religion,

because if they want an explanation of something,

Karena jika mereka mencari penjelasan sesuatu seperti

if they want to know why the crop just failed,

kegagalan panen, datangnya hujan, ataupun kemarau, jika mereka butuh hujan,

if they want to know why it's raining

or not raining, if they need rain,

if they want to know why

jika mereka ingin tahu mengapa kakek mereka meninggal,

their grandfather has died,

they are going to appeal to the very same entities,

mereka akan bertanya ke entitas yang sama,

the very same language,

dengan bahasa yang sama,

talk to the very same gods about that.

dan berbincang ke para dewa yang sama mengenai itu.

This great separation, in other words,

Dengan kata lain, pemisahan antara agama dan sains belumlah terjadi.

between religion and science hasn't happened.

Now, this would be a mere historical curiosity,

Ini mungkin sekadar hipotesis sejarah,

except that in large parts of the world,

namun di sebagian besar tempat di dunia,

this is still the truth.

ini merupakan kebenaran.

I had the privilege of going to a wedding

Saya menghadiri pernikahan di Namibia Utara suatu hari,

the other day in northern Namibia,

20 miles or so south of the Angolan border

sekitar 32,19 km ke arah selatan dari perbatasan Angola,

in a village of 200 people.

di sebuah desa berisi 200 orang.

These were modern people.

Mereka cukup modern.

We had with us Oona Chaplin,

Oona Chaplin juga hadir.

who some of you may have heard of,

Anda mungkin tahu siapa dia.

and one of the people from this village came up to her,

Satu orang dari desa menemuinya dan berkata,

and said, "I've seen you in 'Game of Thrones.'"

"Saya melihat Anda di 'Game of Thrones."

So these were not people who were isolated from our world,

Mereka tidak terisolasi dari dunia kita,

but nevertheless, for them,

namun bagi mereka para dewa dan roh sangatlah nyata.

the gods and the spirits are still very much there,

and when we were on the bus going back and forth

Ketika mereka naik bus untuk menghadiri upacara di tempat berbeda,

to the various parts of the [ceremony],

they prayed not just in a generic way

mereka sungguh-sungguh berdoa untuk perjalanan yang aman.

but for the safety of the journey,

and they meant it,

and when they said to me that my mother,

Dan ketika mereka berkata kepada saya bahwa ibu saya,

the bridegroom's [grandmother],

nenek dari mempelai wanita,

was with us, they didn't mean it figuratively.

juga hadir, mereka berbicara akan rohnya.

They meant, even though she was a dead person,

Meski beliau telah meninggal menurut mereka beliau masih ada.

they meant that she was still around.

So in large parts of the world today,

Jadi di kebanyakan tempat di dunia sekarang ini,

that separation between science and religion

pemisahan antara sains dan agama belumlah terjadi,

hasn't occurred in large parts of the world today,

and as I say, these are not --

dan ini bukanlah --

This guy used to work for Chase and at the World Bank.

pria ini dulu bawahan dari Chase di Bank Dunia.

These are fellow citizens of the world with you,

Mereka orang-orang modern

but they come from a place in which religion

yang berasal dari tempat dimana agama memiliki fungsi berbeda.

is occupying a very different role.

So what I want you to think about next time somebody wants

Jadi acap kali seseorang ingin membuat penyamarataan mengenai agama,

to make some vast generalization about religion

is that maybe there isn't such a thing

coba pikir bahwa mungkin yang namanya agama tidaklah ada,

as a religion, such a thing as religion,

and that therefore what they say

karenanya apa yang mereka katakan tidak mungkin benar.

cannot possibly be true.

(Applause)

(Tepuk tangan)