Kwame Anthony Appiah: Is religion good or bad? (This is a trick question)

153,589 views ใƒป 2014-06-16

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์•„๋ž˜ ์˜๋ฌธ์ž๋ง‰์„ ๋”๋ธ”ํด๋ฆญํ•˜์‹œ๋ฉด ์˜์ƒ์ด ์žฌ์ƒ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.

๋ฒˆ์—ญ: K Bang ๊ฒ€ํ† : Gichung Lee
00:12
People say things about religion all the time.
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ํ•ญ์ƒ ์ข…๊ต์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:16
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
00:18
The late, great Christopher Hitchens
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์ด๋ฏธ ์ž‘๊ณ ํ–ˆ์ง€๋งŒ ์œ„๋Œ€ํ•œ ํฌ๋ฆฌ์Šคํ† ํผ ํžˆ์นœ์Šค๋Š”
00:20
wrote a book called "God Is Not Great"
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"์‹ ์€ ์œ„๋Œ€ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๋‹ค."๋Š” ์ œ๋ชฉ์˜ ์ฑ…์„ ์ผ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:22
whose subtitle was, "Religion Poisons Everything."
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"์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ์„ ์ฃฝ์ธ๋‹ค."๊ฐ€ ๋ถ€์ œ์˜€์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:25
(Laughter)
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(์›ƒ์Œ)
00:27
But last month, in Time magazine,
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์ง€๋‚œ ๋‹ฌ, ํƒ€์ž„์ง€์—
00:31
Rabbi David Wolpe, who I gather is referred to as America's rabbi,
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๋ฐ์ด๋น— ์›”ํ”„๋ผ๋Š” ๋ž๋น„๊ฐ€, ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์•Œ๊ธฐ์— ๋ฏธ๊ตญ์˜ ๋ž๋น„๋กœ ๋ถˆ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ธ๋ฐ,
00:35
said, to balance that against that negative characterization,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋ถ€์ •์ ์ธ ๋ฌ˜์‚ฌ๋ฅผ ์™„ํ™”ํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด ๋งํ–ˆ์–ด์š”,
00:40
that no important form of social change
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์กฐ์งํ™”๋œ ์ข…๊ต๋ฅผ ํ†ตํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ ๋Š”
00:42
can be brought about except through organized religion.
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์–ด๋–ค ์ค‘์š”ํ•œ ์‚ฌํšŒ์  ๋ณ€ํ™”๋„ ์ผ์–ด๋‚  ์ˆ˜ ์—†๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋ง์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:46
Now, remarks of this sort on the negative
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๋ถ€์ •์ ์ด๋“  ๊ธ์ •์ ์ด๋“ 
00:48
and the positive side are very old.
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์ด๋Ÿฌํ•œ ๋ชจ๋“  ํ‰๊ฐ€๋Š” ๊ฝค๋‚˜ ์˜ค๋ž˜๋œ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:52
I have one in my pocket here
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์—ฌ๊ธฐ ์ œ ์ฃผ๋จธ๋‹ˆ ์†์—๋„ ํ•œ ๊ฐœ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
00:54
from the first century BCE by Lucretius,
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๊ธฐ์›์ „ 1์„ธ๊ธฐ ๊ฒฝ,
01:00
the author of "On the Nature of Things," who said,
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"์‚ฌ๋ฌผ์˜ ๋ณธ์งˆ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด์„œ"๋ผ๋Š” ์ฑ…์„ ์“ด ๋ฃจํฌ๋ ˆํ‹ฐ์šฐ์Šค๋ผ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์€
01:03
"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" --
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"์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ์•…ํ–‰์„ ๊ถŒํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค."๊ณ  ํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. --
01:07
I should have been able to learn that by heart โ€”
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์ €๋„ ์™ธ์šธ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์—ˆ์–ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋Š”๋ฐ,
01:10
which is, that's how much religion
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์ด ๋ง์€ ์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค๋กœ ํ•˜์—ฌ๊ธˆ
01:12
is able to persuade people to do evil,
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์–ผ๋งˆ๋‚˜ ๋งŽ์€ ์•…ํ–‰์„ ํ•˜๋„๋ก ํ•˜๋Š”์ง€ ์•Œ๋ ค์ฃผ๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:15
and he was talking about the fact
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๊ทธ๋Š” ์ž๊ธฐ ๊ตฐ๋Œ€์˜ ๋ฏธ๋ž˜๋ฅผ ๋ณดํ˜ธํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด
01:17
of Agamemnon's decision to place his daughter
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์ž์‹ ์˜ ๋”ธ ์ดํ”ผ๊ฒŒ๋‹ˆ์•„๋ฅผ
01:20
Iphigenia on an altar of sacrifice
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ํฌ์ƒ์˜ ์ œ๋ฌผ๋กœ ๋ฐ”์น˜๋Š” ๊ฒฐ์ •์„ ๋‚ด๋ฆฐ
01:22
in order to preserve the prospects of his army.
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์•„๊ฐ€๋ฉค๋…ผ์˜ ์ง„์‹ค์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด์„œ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:25
So there have been these long debates
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์ˆ˜์„ธ๊ธฐ์— ๊ฑธ์ณ
01:28
over the centuries, in that case, actually,
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์•„๋‹ˆ, ์‚ฌ์‹ค ์ˆ˜ ์ฒœ๋…„์— ๊ฑธ์ณ
01:30
we can say over the millennia, about religion.
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์ข…๊ต์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ธด ๋…ผ์Ÿ์ด ์žˆ์–ด์™”์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:31
People have talked about it a lot,
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๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์ˆ˜๋งŽ์€ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:33
and they've said good and bad
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ํŽธ๋“ค๊ธฐ๋„ ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋ฐ˜๋Œ€ํ•˜๊ธฐ๋„ ํ•˜๊ณ 
01:35
and indifferent things about it.
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๋ฌด๊ด€์‹ฌํ•œ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค๋„ ์žˆ์—ˆ์ฃ .
01:39
What I want to persuade you of today
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์ œ๊ฐ€ ์˜ค๋Š˜ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„๋“ค์„ ์„ค๋“ํ•˜๊ณ ์ž ํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ”๋Š”
01:40
is of a very simple claim,
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์•„์ฃผ ๋‹จ์ˆœํ•œ ์ฃผ์žฅ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:42
which is that these debates are
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์ด๋Ÿฌํ•œ ๋…ผ์˜๊ฐ€ ์ผ์ • ๋ถ€๋ถ„
01:44
in a certain sense preposterous,
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์–ผํ† ๋‹นํ†  ์•Š๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:47
because there is no such thing as religion
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์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์ด๋Ÿฌํ•œ ์ฃผ์žฅ์„ ํ• ๋งŒํ•œ
01:51
about which to make these claims.
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์ข…๊ต๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด ์—†๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:53
There isn't a thing called religion,
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์ข…๊ต๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ถˆ๋ฆด๋งŒํ•œ ๊ฒƒ์€ ์•„๋ฌด ๊ฒƒ๋„ ์—†์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
01:54
and so it can't be good or bad.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ ์ข‹์„ ๊ฒƒ๋„ ๋‚˜์  ๊ฒƒ๋„ ์—†์ง€์š”.
01:57
It can't even be indifferent.
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์‹ฌ์ง€์–ด ๋ฌด๊ด€์‹ฌํ•  ์ˆ˜๋„ ์—†์–ด์š”.
01:59
And if you think about claims
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์‚ฌ๋ฌผ์˜ ๋น„์กด์žฌ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ
02:02
about the nonexistence of things,
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์ฃผ์žฅ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด์‹œ๋ฉด
02:06
one obvious way to try and establish
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์‚ฌ๋ฌผ์˜ ๋น„์กด์žฌ๋ฅผ ๊ฒฐ๋ก ์ง€์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”
02:08
the nonexistence of a purported thing
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ํ•œ ๊ฐ€์ง€ ์œ ๋ ฅํ•œ ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์€
02:10
would be to offer a definition of that thing
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๊ทธ ์‚ฌ๋ฌผ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ •์˜๋ฅผ ๋‚ด๋ฆฌ๊ณ 
02:13
and then to see whether anything satisfied it.
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๊ทธ๊ฑธ ๋งŒ์กฑํ•˜๋Š”์ง€ ๋ณด๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:15
I'm going to start out on that little route
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๋จผ์ € ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๊ธธ์„ ๋”ฐ๋ผ
02:19
to begin with.
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์‹œ์ž‘ํ•ด๋ณด์ฃ .
02:20
So if you look in the dictionaries
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์‚ฌ์ „์„ ์ฐพ์•„๋ณด๊ณ 
02:22
and if you think about it,
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์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด๋ฉด
02:24
one very natural definition of religion
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์ข…๊ต์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ•œ๊ฐ€์ง€ ๋งค์šฐ ์ž์—ฐ์Šค๋Ÿฌ์šด ์ •์˜๋Š”
02:26
is that it involves belief in gods or in spiritual beings.
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์‹ ์ด๋‚˜ ์˜์ ์ธ ์กด์žฌ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋ฏฟ์Œ์„ ํฌํ•จํ•˜๊ณ  ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:32
As I say, this is in many dictionaries,
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์ด๋Ÿฐ ์ •์˜๋Š” ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ ์‚ฌ์ „๋“ค์—์„œ ์ฐพ์•„๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”๋ฐ
02:33
but you'll also find it actually
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์‹ค์ œ๋กœ
02:36
in the work of Sir Edward Tylor,
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์—๋“œ์›Œ๋“œ ํ…Œ์ผ๋Ÿฌ ๊ฒฝ์˜ ์‚ฌ์ „์—์„œ๋„ ์ฐพ์„ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:38
who was the first professor of anthropology at Oxford,
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๊ทธ๋Š” ์˜ฅ์Šคํฌ๋“œ ๋Œ€ํ•™ ์ตœ์ดˆ์˜ ์ธ๋ฅ˜ํ•™ ๊ต์ˆ˜์˜€์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:40
one of the first modern anthropologists.
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์ตœ์ดˆ์˜ ํ˜„๋Œ€ ์ธ๋ฅ˜ํ•™์ž ์ค‘ ํ•œ ๋ถ„์ด์ฃ .
02:42
In his book on primitive culture,
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์›์‹œ ๋ฌธํ™”์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ทธ์˜ ์ €์„œ์—์„œ
02:44
he says the heart of religion is what he called animism,
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๊ทธ๋Š” ์ข…๊ต์˜ ์ค‘์‹ฌ์ด ์• ๋‹ˆ๋ฏธ์ฆ˜์— ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋งํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:47
that is, the belief in spiritual agency,
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์ฆ‰ ์˜์ ์ธ ๋Œ€๋ฆฌ์ž์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋ฏฟ์Œ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:49
belief in spirits.
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์˜ํ˜ผ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋ฏฟ์Œ์ด์ง€์š”.
02:51
The first problem for that definition
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๊ทธ ์ •์˜๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ–๋Š” ์ฒซ๋ฒˆ์งธ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋Š”
02:53
is from a recent novel by Paul Beatty called "Tuff."
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ํด ๋น„ํ‹ฐ์˜ ์ตœ์‹ ์ž‘ ์†Œ์„ค์ธ "ํ„ฐํ”„(Tuff)"์— ๋‚˜์˜ต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
02:56
There's a guy talking to a rabbi.
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๋ž๋น„์™€ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐํ•˜๋Š” ๋‚จ์ž๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์–ด์š”.
02:57
The rabbi says he doesn't believe in God.
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๋ž๋น„๋Š” ์ž์‹ ์€ ์‹ ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๋ฏฟ์Œ์ด ์—†๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋งํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:00
The guy says, "You're a rabbi, how can you not believe in God?"
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ์ž ๋‚จ์ž๋Š” "๋‹น์‹ ์€ ๋ž๋น„์ธ๋ฐ ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ์‹ ์„ ๋ฏฟ์ง€ ์•Š์ฃ ?"๋ผ๊ณ  ํ•˜์ฃ .
03:02
And the reply is, "It's what's so great about being Jewish.
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๊ทธ๋Š” "๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์ด ๋ฐ”๋กœ ์œ ํƒœ์ธ์ธ ์ ์ด ๋Œ€๋‹จํ•œ ์ด์œ ์ด์ง€.
03:06
You don't have to believe in a God per se,
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์‹  ๊ทธ ์ž์ฒด๋Š” ๋ฏฟ์ง€ ์•Š์•„๋„ ๋ผ.
03:08
just in being Jewish." (Laughter)
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์œ ๋Œ€์ธ์ด๊ธฐ๋งŒ ํ•˜๋ฉด ๋˜๋Š”๊ฑฐ์•ผ." ๋ผ๊ณ  ๋‹ตํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. (์›ƒ์Œ)
03:10
So if this guy is a rabbi, and a Jewish rabbi,
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์ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด ๋ž๋น„, ํŠนํžˆ ์œ ํƒœ์ธ ๋ž๋น„์ด๊ณ 
03:13
and if you have to believe in God in order to be religious,
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์ด ์‹ ์‹คํ•˜๊ธฐ ์œ„ํ•ด ์‹ ์„ ๋ฏฟ์–ด์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๋ฉด
03:16
then we have the rather counterintuitive conclusion
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์ง๊ด€๊ณผ๋Š” ๊ฝค๋‚˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๊ฒฐ๋ก ์— ์ด๋ฅด๊ฒŒ ๋˜๋Š”๋ฐ,
03:20
that since it's possible to be a Jewish rabbi
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์‹ ์„ ๋ฏฟ์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ ๋„
03:22
without believing in God,
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์œ ํƒœ์ธ ๋ž๋น„๊ฐ€ ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋‹ค๋ฉด
03:24
Judaism isn't a religion.
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์œ ๋Œ€๊ต๋Š” ๋” ์ด์ƒ ์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
03:26
That seems like a pretty counterintuitive thought.
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์ง๊ด€๊ณผ๋Š” ์ƒ๋‹นํžˆ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์ƒ๊ฐ์ด์ฃ .
03:29
Here's another argument against this view.
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์ด๋Ÿฐ ๊ด€์ ๊ณผ๋Š” ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์˜๊ฒฌ๋„ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:33
A friend of mine, an Indian friend of mine,
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์ธ๋„์ธ์ธ ์ œ ์นœ๊ตฌ๊ฐ€
03:35
went to his grandfather when he was very young,
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์•„์ฃผ ์–ด๋ฆด ๋•Œ ํ• ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€๋ฅผ
03:37
a child, and said to him,
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์ฐพ์•„๊ฐ”์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:38
"I want to talk to you about religion,"
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"์ข…๊ต์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆด๊ฒŒ ์žˆ์–ด์š”."
03:40
and his grandfather said, "You're too young.
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๋ผ๊ณ  ํ•˜์ž ํ• ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€๊ป˜์„œ๋Š” "๋„Œ ์–ด๋ฌด ์–ด๋ ค.
03:42
Come back when you're a teenager."
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10๋Œ€๊ฐ€ ๋˜๋ฉด ๋‹ค์‹œ ์™€๋ผ."๋ผ๊ณ  ํ•˜์…จ๋‹ต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:43
So he came back when he was a teenager,
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ 10๋Œ€๊ฐ€ ๋˜์ž ๋‹ค์‹œ ํ• ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€๋ฅผ ์ฐพ์•„๊ฐ€์„œ
03:45
and he said to his grandfather,
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์ด๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ๋งํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
03:47
"It may be a bit late now
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"์ด์   ๋„ˆ๋ฌด ๋Šฆ์€ ๊ฒƒ ๊ฐ™์€๋ฐ
03:48
because I've discovered that I don't believe in the gods."
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์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์ €๋Š” ์‹ ์„ ๋ฏฟ์ง€ ์•Š๋Š”๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์„ ๊นจ๋‹ฌ์•˜๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”."
03:52
And his grandfather, who was a wise man, said,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ์ž ํ˜„์ž์ธ ๊ทธ์˜ ํ• ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€๊ป˜์„œ๋Š”
03:54
"Oh, so you belong to the atheist branch
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"์•„, ๋„ˆ๋Š” ๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ํžŒ๋‘์˜ ์ „ํ†ต ์ค‘์—
03:56
of the Hindu tradition." (Laughter)
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๋ฌด์‹ ๋ก ํŒŒ์— ์†ํ•˜๋Š”๊ตฌ๋‚˜." (์›ƒ์Œ)
03:59
And finally, there's this guy,
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๋งˆ์ง€๋ง‰ ์ด ๋ถ„๋„ ๊ณ„์‹œ์ฃ .
04:03
who famously doesn't believe in God.
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์‹ ์„ ๋น‹์ง€ ์•Š๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์œผ๋กœ ์œ ๋ช…ํ•œ
04:05
His name is the Dalai Lama.
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๋‹ฌ๋ผ์ด ๋ผ๋งˆ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:07
He often jokes that he's one of the world's leading atheists.
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๊ทธ ๋ถ„์€ ๊ฐ€๋” ์ž์‹ ์ด ์„ธ์ƒ ์ตœ๊ณ ์˜ ๋ฌด์‹ ๋ก ์ž๋ผ๊ณ  ๋†๋‹ด์„ ํ•˜์‹ญ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:10
But it's true, because the Dalai Lama's religion
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๋งž๋Š” ๋ง์”€์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ๋‹ฌ๋ผ์ด ๋ผ๋งˆ์˜ ์ข…๊ต๋Š”
04:13
does not involve belief in God.
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์‹ ์„ ๋ฏฟ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ๊ณผ๋Š” ์ƒ๊ด€์ด ์—†์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
04:15
Now you might think this just shows
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์ด๋Ÿฐ ๊ฒƒ์„ ๋ณผ ๋•Œ, ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„์€ ์ œ๊ฐ€
04:17
that I've given you the wrong definition
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ํ‹€๋ฆฐ ์ •์˜๋ฅผ ๋“œ๋ ธ๊ณ 
04:20
and that I should come up with some other definition
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์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์ •์˜๋ฅผ ๋‚ด๋ ค์•ผ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹ค์ง€๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฆ…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:22
and test it against these cases
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๋˜ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๊ฒฝ์šฐ๋“ค์— ์‹œํ—˜ํ•ด ๋ณด๊ณ 
04:24
and try and find something that captures
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๋ฌด์‹ ๋ก ์  ์œ ๋Œ€๊ต๋‚˜ ๋ฌด์‹ ๋ก ์  ํžŒ๋‘๊ต,
04:26
atheistic Judaism, atheistic Hinduism,
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๋˜๋Š” ๋ฌด์‹ ๋ก ์  ๋ถˆ๊ต๋„ ํ•˜๋‚˜์˜ ์ข…๊ต ํ™œ๋™์˜ ํ˜•ํƒœ๋กœ
04:29
and atheistic Buddhism as forms of religiosity,
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ํฌํ•จํ•˜๋Š” ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ๊ฒƒ์„ ์ฐพ์•„์•ผํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์‹ค์ง€๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฆ…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:33
but I actually think that that's a bad idea,
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ์ €๋Š” ๊ทธ๊ฑด ์ข‹์€ ์ƒ๊ฐ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ด…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:34
and the reason I think it's a bad idea
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๊ทธ ์ด์œ ๋Š” ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ๊ฒŒ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ–๋Š” ์ข…๊ต์˜ ๊ฐœ๋…์ด
04:37
is that I don't think that's how
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04:38
our concept of religion works.
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์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๊ธฐ ๋•Œ๋ฌธ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:40
I think the way our concept of religion works
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์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์— ์ข…๊ต๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฐœ๋…์ด ์ž‘์šฉํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐฉ์‹์€
04:42
is that we actually have, we have a list
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์‚ฌ์‹ค ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์—๊ฒŒ ์ผ์ข…์˜
04:45
of paradigm religions
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์ „ํ˜•์  ์ข…๊ต์˜ ๋ชฉ๋ก๊ณผ
04:47
and their sub-parts, right,
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๊ทธ์— ์ข…์†๋˜๋Š” ๋ถ€๋ถ„์ด ์žˆ์–ด์„œ
04:50
and if something new comes along
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์ข…๊ต์ž„์„ ์ฃผ์žฅํ•˜๋Š”
04:52
that purports to be a religion,
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์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ๋ญ”๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ๋‚˜ํƒ€๋‚˜๋ฉด
04:54
what we ask is, "Well, is it like one of these?"
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"์ด๊ฑด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ€์ง„ ๋ชฉ๋ก ์ค‘์— ํ•˜๋‚˜์™€ ๊ฐ™์€๊ฐ€?"๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ฌป์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
04:56
Right?
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๊ทธ๋ ‡์ฃ ?
04:59
And I think that's not only how we think about religion,
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์ €๋Š” ๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์ด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์ข…๊ต๋ฅผ ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ•์ผ ๋ฟ๋งŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
05:01
and that's, as it were,
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์›์น™์ ์œผ๋กœ
05:03
so from our point of view,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๊ด€์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ณผ ๋•Œ,
05:04
anything on that list had better be a religion,
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ๋ชฉ๋ก์— ๋“ค์–ด์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด ์ข…๊ต์˜€์œผ๋ฉด ํ•˜๊ณ  ๋ฐ”๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:06
which is why I don't think an account of religion
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๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์ด ์ œ๊ฐ€ ๋ฐ”๋กœ
05:08
that excludes Buddhism and Judaism
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๋ถˆ๊ต๋‚˜ ์œ ํƒœ๊ต๋ฅผ ๋ฐฐ์ œํ•œ ๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ์ข…๊ต๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์„ ์„ค๋ช…ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด
05:10
has a chance of being a good starter,
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์•„์ฃผ ์ข‹์€ ์‹œ๋ฐœ์ ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜๋Š” ์ด์œ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:13
because they're on our list.
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๋ถˆ๊ต์™€ ์œ ํƒœ๊ต๋Š” ์šฐ๋ฆฌ ๋ชฉ๋ก์— ๋“ค์–ด์žˆ๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
05:15
But why do we have such a list?
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋ฉด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์™œ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๋ชฉ๋ก์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฑธ๊นŒ์š”?
05:17
What's going on? How did it come about
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์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋œ๊ฑฐ์ฃ ? ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ํ•ด์„œ ์šฐ๋ฆฌ๋Š”
05:19
that we have this list?
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋ชฉ๋ก์„ ๊ฐ–๊ฒŒ ๋œ ๊ฑธ๊นŒ์š”?
05:21
I think the answer is a pretty simple one
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๋‹ต์ด ๋„ˆ๋ฌด ๊ฐ„๋‹จํ•ด์„œ
05:24
and therefore crude and contentious.
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๋ถˆ์™„์ „ํ•œ ๋ฉด๋„ ์žˆ๊ณ  ๋…ผ์Ÿ์ด ๋˜๊ธฐ๋„ ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:27
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with it,
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๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์—ฌ๊ธฐ์— ๋™์˜ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š์„ ๊ฒƒ์ด๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ
05:29
but here's my story,
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์ œ ์–˜๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋“ค์–ด๋ณด์„ธ์š”.
05:30
and true or not, it's a story that I think
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์‚ฌ์‹ค์ด๊ฑด ์•„๋‹ˆ๊ฑด, ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋ชฉ๋ก์ด ๋‚˜์˜ค๊ฒŒ ๋œ
05:33
gives you a good sense of how
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์•„์ฃผ ์ข‹์€ ์ด์œ ๋„ ๋˜๊ณ 
05:35
the list might have come about,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋ชฉ๋ก์ด ์–ด๋–ค ์œ ์šฉ์„ฑ์„ ๊ฐ–๋Š”์ง€
05:37
and therefore helps you to think about
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์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด์‹œ๋Š”๋ฐ ๋„์›€์ด ๋ 
05:38
what use the list might be.
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์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:40
I think the answer is, European travelers,
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๋‹ต์€ ์œ ๋Ÿฝ์˜ ํƒํ—˜๊ฐ€๋“ค์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:43
starting roughly about the time of Columbus,
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๋Œ€๋žต ์ฝœ๋Ÿผ๋ฒ„์Šค ์‹œ๋Œ€์— ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•ด์„œ
05:45
started going around the world.
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์„ธ์ƒ์„ ์—ฌํ–‰ํ•˜๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ–ˆ์ง€์š”.
05:46
They came from a Christian culture,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์‚ฌํšŒ ์ถœ์‹ ์ธ๋ฐ
05:49
and when they arrived in a new place,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ์„ธ๊ณ„์— ๋„๋‹ฌํ–ˆ์„ ๋•Œ,
05:51
they noticed that some people didn't have Christianity,
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์ผ๋ถ€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ธฐ๋…๊ต์  ์ƒ๊ฐ์„ ๊ฐ–๊ณ  ์žˆ์ง€ ์•Š๋‹ค๋Š” ์ ์„ ์•Œ๊ฒŒ ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
05:53
and so they asked themselves the following question:
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ์Šค์Šค๋กœ์—๊ฒŒ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ์งˆ๋ฌธ์„ ๋˜์ง‘๋‹ˆ๋‹ค:
05:55
what have they got instead of Christianity?
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ๋Œ€์‹  ์ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋ญ˜ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ์„๊นŒ?
05:59
And that list was essentially constructed.
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๊ทธ๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ๋ชฉ๋ก์ด ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋งŒ๋“ค์–ด์ง„ ๊ฒ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:02
It consists of the things that other people had
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์ •์‹  ๋Œ€์‹  ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๊ฐ€์กŒ๋˜
06:04
instead of Christianity.
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๊ฒƒ๋“ค๋กœ ๊ตฌ์„ฑ๋˜์–ด ์žˆ์ง€์š”.
06:07
Now there's a difficulty with proceeding in that way,
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์ด๋Ÿฐ ๋ฐฉ์‹์œผ๋กœ ์ง„ํ–‰ํ•˜๊ธฐ์—๋Š” ๋ฌธ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:10
which is that Christianity is extremely,
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต์  ์ •์‹ ์€
06:13
even on that list, it's an extremely specific tradition.
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๊ทธ ๋ชฉ๋ก ์•ˆ์—์„œ๋„, ์ง€๋‚˜์น˜๊ฒŒ ํŠน์ •ํ•œ ์ „ํ†ต์ด๊ฑฐ๋“ ์š”.
06:17
It has all kinds of things in it
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๊ทธ ์•ˆ์—๋Š” ๋ณ„์˜๋ณ„ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์ด
06:19
that are very, very particular
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๋‹ค ์žˆ์œผ๋ฉฐ
06:21
that are the results of the specifics
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์—ญ์‚ฌ์˜ ํŠน์ •ํ•œ ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ๋“ค๋งŒ ์žˆ๋Š”
06:23
of Christian history,
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๋ชน์‹œ ํŠน๋ณ„ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:26
and one thing that's at the heart of it,
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๊ทธ ์ค‘์‹ฌ์—๋Š” ํ•œ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:27
one thing that's at the heart of most understandings of Christianity,
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์ •์‹ ์„ ์ดํ•ดํ•˜๋Š” ์ค‘์‹ฌ์— ์žˆ๋Š” ํ•˜๋‚˜,
06:30
which is the result of the specific history of Christianity,
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์ •์‹ ์ด ๊ฐ€์ง„ ํŠน์ •ํ•œ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์˜ ๊ฒฐ๊ณผ๋ฌผ์ธ ์ด๊ฒƒ์€
06:32
is that it's an extremely creedal religion.
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต๊ฐ€ ๊ทน๋‹จ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๊ต๋ฆฌ์ ์ธ ์ข…๊ต๋ผ๋Š” ์ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:36
It's a religion in which people are really concerned
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์˜ณ์€ ๊ฒƒ์„ ๋ฏฟ๊ณ  ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€์—
06:38
about whether you believe the right things.
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์ง€๊ณ ํ•œ ๊ด€์‹ฌ์ด ์žˆ๋Š” ์ข…๊ต์—์š”.
06:41
The history of Christianity, the internal history of Christianity,
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์ •์‹ ์˜ ์—ญ์‚ฌ, ๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์ •์‹ ์˜ ๋‚ด๋ถ€์ ์ธ ์—ญ์‚ฌ๋Š”
06:43
is largely the history of people killing each other
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์ฃผ๋กœ ๋ˆ„๊ตฐ๊ฐ€ ์ž˜๋ชป๋œ ๊ฒƒ์„ ๋ฏฟ์œผ๋ฉด
06:45
because they believed the wrong thing,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์„ ์‚ด์ƒํ•˜๋Š” ์—ญ์‚ฌ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:47
and it's also involved in
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๊ฒŒ๋‹ค๊ฐ€ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์ข…๊ต์™€
06:49
struggles with other religions,
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๋งˆ์ฐฐ์„ ์ผ์œผํ‚ค๋Š” ์ข…๊ต์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
06:51
obviously starting in the Middle Ages,
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์ด๋Ÿฌํ•œ ๋งˆ์ฐฐ์€ ์ค‘์„ธ์—
06:55
a struggle with Islam,
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์ด์Šฌ๋žŒ๊ณผ์˜ ํˆฌ์Ÿ์—์„œ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ–ˆ์œผ๋ฉฐ,
06:56
in which, again, it was the infidelity,
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์—ฌ๊ธฐ์„œ ๋˜ ๋‹ค์‹œ, ์ด๋‹จ์ด,
06:59
the fact that they didn't believe the right things,
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์ฆ‰ ๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ์˜ณ์ง€ ์•Š์€ ๊ฒƒ์„ ๋ฏฟ๋Š”๋‹ค๋Š” ์‚ฌ์‹ค์ด
07:01
that seemed so offensive to the Christian world.
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์‚ฌํšŒ์—๋Š” ๊ณต๊ฒฉ์ ์œผ๋กœ ๋ณด์˜€๋˜ ๊ฒƒ์ด์ง€์š”.
07:05
Now that's a very specific and particular history
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๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์€ ๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ์‚ฌํšŒ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ€์ง„
07:07
that Christianity has,
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๋งค์šฐ ๊ตฌ์ฒด์ ์ด๊ณ  ํŠน์ •ํ•œ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:10
and not everywhere is everything
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๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ์ด ์ „๋ถ€ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๋ชฉ๋ก์—
07:13
that has ever been put on this sort of list like it.
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์˜ฌ๋ ค์ง„ ๊ฒƒ์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์ฃ .
07:17
Here's another problem, I think.
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๋˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ๋ฌธ์ œ๋„ ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:18
A very specific thing happened.
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์ƒ๋‹นํžˆ ํŠน๋ณ„ํ•œ ์ผ์ธ๋ฐ์š”.
07:20
It was actually adverted to earlier,
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์‚ฌ์‹ค ์•ž์—์„œ ์–ธ๊ธ‰ํ–ˆ๋˜ ๊ฒƒ์ด์ง€๋งŒ
07:21
but a very specific thing happened
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต์™€ ๊ทธ ์ฃผ๋ณ€ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์—๋Š”
07:23
in the history of the kind of Christianity
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์•„์ฃผ ํŠน๋ณ„ํ•œ ์ผ์ด ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:25
that we see around us
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ ์ฃผ๋ณ€์—์„œ
07:26
mostly in the United States today,
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ํŠนํžˆ ๋ฏธ๊ตญ์—์„œ ์ž์ฃผ ๋ณผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ์ผ์ด์ฃ .
07:28
and it happened in the late 19th century,
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ ํ›„๋ฐ˜์— ์ผ์–ด๋‚ฌ๋˜ ์ผ์ธ๋ฐ
07:32
and that specific thing that happened
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ ํ›„๋ฐ˜์— ์ผ์–ด๋‚œ
07:33
in the late 19th century
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๊ทธ ํŠน๋ณ„ํ•œ ์‚ฌ๊ฑด์€
07:34
was a kind of deal that was cut
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์ง€์  ๊ถŒ์œ„๋ฅผ ํ˜•์„ฑํ•˜๋Š”
07:37
between science,
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์ƒˆ๋กœ์šด ๋ฐฉ์‹์œผ๋กœ์จ์˜ ๊ณผํ•™๊ณผ
07:39
this new way of organizing intellectual authority,
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์ข…๊ต ์‚ฌ์ด์—์„œ ์žˆ์—ˆ๋˜
07:45
and religion.
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์ผ์ข…์˜ ์•ผํ•ฉ์ด์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
07:46
If you think about the 18th century, say,
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18์„ธ๊ธฐ,
07:48
if you think about intellectual life
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  19์„ธ๊ธฐ ํ›„๋ฐ˜ ์ด์ „์˜
07:50
before the late 19th century,
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์ง€์  ์ƒํ™œ์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ด๋ณด๋ฉด
07:52
anything you did, anything you thought about,
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๋ฌด์—‡์„ ํ–ˆ๊ฑด, ๋ฌด์Šจ ์ƒ๊ฐ์„ ํ–ˆ๊ฑด,
07:55
whether it was the physical world,
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๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์ด ๋ฌผ์งˆ์  ์„ธ๊ณ„์˜€๊ฑด
07:58
the human world,
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์ธ๊ฐ„์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์˜€๊ฑด
08:00
the natural world apart from the human world,
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์ธ๊ฐ„ ์„ธ๊ณ„์™€๋Š” ๊ตฌ๋ณ„๋˜๋Š” ์ž์—ฐ์˜ ์„ธ๊ณ„์˜€๊ฑด,
08:02
or morality, anything you did
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ํ˜น์€ ๋„๋•์„ฑ์ด์—ˆ๊ฑด, ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ํ–‰ํ•œ ์–ด๋–ค ๊ฒƒ๋„
08:04
would have been framed against the background
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์ผ๋ จ์˜ ์ข…๊ต์ ์ธ ์ „์ œ๋ฅผ
08:05
of a set of assumptions that were religious,
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๋ฐฐ๊ฒฝ์œผ๋กœ ์งœ์—ฌ์กŒ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:08
Christian assumptions.
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๊ธฐ๋…๊ต์ ์ธ ์ „์ œ์ด์ฃ .
08:09
You couldn't give an account
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๊ด€๊ณ„๋ฅผ ์–ธ๊ธ‰ํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ ๋Š”
08:11
of the natural world
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์ž์—ฐ ์„ธ๊ณ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ
08:12
that didn't say something about its relationship,
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์–ด๋–ค ๊ฒฌํ•ด๋„ ๋‚ผ ์ˆ˜ ์—†์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:15
for example, to the creation story
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๊ฐ€๋ น, ์•„๋ธŒ๋ผํ•จ์˜ ์ „ํ†ต์„ ๋”ฐ๋ฅด๋Š”
08:17
in the Abrahamic tradition,
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์ฐฝ์กฐ๋ก ๊ณผ์˜ ๊ด€๊ณ„๋ผ๋“ ๊ฐ€,
08:19
the creation story in the first book of the Torah.
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์œ ๋Œ€ ์œจ๋ฒ•์˜ ์ฒซ ๊ต์„œ์— ์žˆ๋Š” ์ฐฝ์กฐ๋ก ๊ณผ์˜ ๊ด€๊ณ„๊ฐ€ ๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:22
So everything was framed in that way.
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๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ์ด ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ์‹์œผ๋กœ ์งœ์—ฌ์กŒ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:25
But this changes in the late 19th century,
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ 19์„ธ๊ธฐ ํ›„๋ฐ˜ ๋ณ€ํ™”๊ฐ€ ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜๊ธฐ ์‹œ์ž‘ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:28
and for the first time, it's possible for people
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์ฒ˜์Œ์œผ๋กœ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€
08:30
to develop serious intellectual careers
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๋‹ค์œˆ๊ณผ ๊ฐ™์€ ์ž์—ฐ ์—ญ์‚ฌ๊ฐ€๋กœ์„œ
08:32
as natural historians like Darwin.
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์ง„์ง€ํ•œ ์ง€์  ๊ฒฝ๋ ฅ์„ ์Œ“์•„ ๋‚˜๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค
08:34
Darwin worried about the relationship between
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๋‹ค์œˆ์€ ์ž์‹ ์ด ๋งํ•œ ๊ฒƒ๊ณผ ์ข…๊ต์  ์ง„์‹ค ์‚ฌ์ด์˜
08:36
what he said and the truths of religion,
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๊ด€๊ณ„์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ๊ฑฑ์ •ํ–ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
08:39
but he could proceed, he could write books
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์ข…๊ต์ ์ธ ์ฃผ์žฅ๊ณผ ์–ด๋–ค ๊ด€๊ณ„์— ์žˆ๋Š”์ง€
08:41
about his subject
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๋งํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ ๋„
08:43
without having to say what the relationship was
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์ฑ…์„ ์“ฐ๊ณ , ๊ณ„์†ํ•ด ๋‚˜๊ฐˆ ์ˆ˜
08:45
to the religious claims,
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์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:47
and similarly, geologists increasingly could talk about it.
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๋งˆ์ฐฌ๊ฐ€์ง€๋กœ ์ง€์งˆํ•™์ž๋“ค๋„ ์ ์  ๋” ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒŒ ๋˜์—ˆ์ฃ .
08:49
In the early 19th century, if you were a geologist
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ ์ดˆ, ์ง€์งˆํ•™์ž๋กœ์„œ
08:51
and made a claim about the age of the Earth,
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์ง€๊ตฌ์˜ ๋‚˜์ด์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด ์ฃผ์žฅํ•˜๋ ค๋ฉด
08:53
you had to explain whether that was consistent
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๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์ด ์ฐฝ์„ธ๊ธฐ์— ์“ฐ์ธ ๋‚ด์šฉ์—
08:55
or how it was or wasn't consistent
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๋ถ€ํ•ฉํ•˜๋Š”์ง€, ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋ถ€ํ•ฉํ•˜๋Š”์ง€
08:56
with the age of the Earth implied
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ํ˜น์€ ๊ทธ๋ ‡์ง€ ์•Š์€์ง€๋ฅผ
08:57
by the account in Genesis.
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์„ค๋ช…ํ•ด์•ผ๋งŒ ํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
08:59
By the end of the 19th century,
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ ๋ง์—๋Š”
09:00
you can just write a geology textbook
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์ง€๊ตฌ์˜ ๋‚˜์ด๊ฐ€ ์–ผ๋งˆ์ธ์ง€์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด
09:02
in which you make arguments about how old the Earth is.
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์ž์‹ ์˜ ์ฃผ์žฅ์„ ๋‹ด์€ ์ง€์งˆํ•™ ์ฑ…์„ ๊ทธ๋ƒฅ ์“ธ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๊ฒŒ ๋˜์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:04
So there's a big change, and that division,
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์—„์ฒญ๋‚œ ๋ณ€ํ™”์˜€์ง€์š”. ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋ถ„ํ• ,
09:06
that intellectual division of labor occurs as I say, I think,
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๋…ธ๋™์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ๋ถ„๊ธฐ๋Š” ์ง€์  ๋ถ„ํ• ์€ ์ œ ์ƒ๊ฐ์—
09:09
and it sort of solidifies so that by the end
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๊ทธ๋Œ€๋กœ ๊ตณ์–ด์ ธ์„œ
09:12
of the 19th century in Europe,
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ ๋ง ์œ ๋Ÿฝ์—์„œ๋Š”
09:15
there's a real intellectual division of labor,
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๋…ธ๋™์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์‹ค์งˆ์ ์ธ ์ง€์  ๋ถ„ํ• ์ด ์ƒ๊ฒผ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:17
and you can do all sorts of serious things,
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๋ชจ๋“  ์ข…๋ฅ˜์˜ ์ง„์ง€ํ•œ ๊ฒƒ๋“ค์„,
09:19
including, increasingly, even philosophy,
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์‹ฌ์ง€์–ด ์ฒ ํ•™๊ณผ ๊ฐ™์€ ๊ฒƒ์„ ์ ์  ๋” ๋งŽ์€ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
09:23
without being constrained by the thought,
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๋‹ค์Œ๊ณผ ๊ฐ™์€ ์‚ฌ๊ณ ์— ์ œํ•œ ๋ฐ›์ง€ ์•Š๊ณ  ํ•  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:26
"Well, what I have to say has to be consistent
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"๋‚ด๊ฐ€ ๋งํ•ด์•ผ ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
09:28
with the deep truths that are given to me
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ์˜ ์ข…๊ต์  ์ „ํ†ต์ด ์ „ํ•ด ์ฃผ๋Š”
09:31
by our religious tradition."
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๊นŠ์€ ์ง„์‹ค๊ณผ ๋ถ€ํ•ฉํ•ด์•ผ๋งŒ ํ•˜๋Š”๋ฐ..."
09:33
So imagine someone who's coming out
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19์„ธ๊ธฐ ๋ง, ๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ
09:35
of that world, that late-19th-century world,
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๋น ์ ธ ๋‚˜์™€์„œ
09:39
coming into the country that I grew up in, Ghana,
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์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ž๋ž€ ๊ฐ€๋‚˜๋‚˜
09:43
the society that I grew up in, Asante,
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์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ž๋ž€ ์•„์ƒจํ‹ฐ ์‚ฌํšŒ๋กœ
09:45
coming into that world
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๋“ค์–ด์™€
09:47
at the turn of the 20th century
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20์„ธ๊ธฐ ์ „ํ™˜๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋งž์ดํ•œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ด
09:49
with this question that made the list:
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์ด๋Ÿฐ ์งˆ๋ฌธ๋“ค๋กœ ๋œ ๋ชฉ๋ก์„ ๊ฐ€์ง€๊ณ  ์žˆ๋‹ค๊ณ  ์ƒ์ƒํ•ด ๋ณด์‹œ์ฃ :
09:51
what have they got instead of Christianity?
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"์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ ๊ธฐ๋…๊ต ๋Œ€์‹ ์— ๋ฌด์—‡์ด ์žˆ์„๊นŒ?"
09:54
Well, here's one thing he would have noticed,
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์–ด์ฉŒ๋ฉด ์ด๋Ÿฐ ๊ฒƒ์ด ๋ˆˆ์— ๋„์—ˆ์„์ง€๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฆ…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
09:57
and by the way, there was a person who actually did this.
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์‹ค์ œ๋กœ ๊ทธ๋žฌ๋˜ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋„ ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:00
His name was Captain Rattray,
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์บกํ‹ด ๋ž˜ํŠธ๋ ˆ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ์ธ๋ฐ์š”.
10:01
he was sent as the British government anthropologist,
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๊ทธ๋Š” ์˜๊ตญ ์ •๋ถ€๊ฐ€ ๋ณด๋‚ธ ์ธ๋ฅ˜ํ•™์ž๋กœ
10:03
and he wrote a book about Asante religion.
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์•„์ƒจํ‹ฐ์˜ ์ข…๊ต์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ฑ…์„ ์ผ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:05
This is a soul disc.
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์ด๊ฒƒ์€ "์†Œ์šธ ๋””์Šคํฌ"์ธ๋ฐ์š”.
10:08
There are many of them in the British Museum.
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๋Œ€์˜๋ฐ•๋ฌผ๊ด€์— ๋งŽ์ด ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:10
I could give you an interesting, different history
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์ €๋Š” ์ œ๊ฐ€ ์ž๋ž€ ์‚ฌํšŒ์˜
10:11
of how it comes about that many of the things
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๋งŽ์€ ๋ฌผ๊ฑด๋“ค์ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋Œ€์˜๋ฐ•๋ฌผ๊ด€์— ์˜ค๊ฒŒ๋˜์—ˆ๋Š”์ง€์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ
10:13
from my society ended up in the British Museum,
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์žฌ๋ฏธ์žˆ๊ณ  ๋…ํŠนํ•œ ์ด์•ผ๊ธฐ๋ฅผ ๋“ค๋ ค๋“œ๋ฆฌ๊ณ  ์‹ถ์ง€๋งŒ
10:17
but we don't have time for that.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿด ์‹œ๊ฐ„์ด ์—†๊ตฐ์š”.
10:18
So this object is a soul disc.
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ "์†Œ์šธ ๋””์Šคํฌ"๋ฅผ ์ค€๋น„ํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:20
What is a soul disc?
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"์†Œ์šธ ๋””์Šคํฌ"๊ฐ€ ๋ฌด์—‡์ด๋ƒ๊ตฌ์š”?
10:21
It was worn around the necks
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์ด๊ฒƒ์€ ์•„์ƒจํ‹ฐ ์™•์˜ ์˜ํ˜ผ์„ ์ •์ œํ•˜๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด
10:23
of the soul-washers of the Asante king.
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๋ชฉ์— ๊ฑธ์—ˆ๋˜ ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:25
What was their job? To wash the king's soul.
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๋ญํ•˜๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด์—ˆ๋ƒ๊ตฌ์š”? ์™•์˜ ์˜ํ˜ผ์„ ๋‹ฆ์•„์ฃผ๋Š” ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด์—ˆ์ฃ .
10:29
It would take a long while
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์˜ํ˜ผ์ด ์–ด๋–ป๊ฒŒ ๋‹ฆ์ผ ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ธ์ง€์— ๋Œ€ํ•ด์„œ
10:31
to explain how a soul could be the kind of thing
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์„ค๋ช…ํ•˜๋ ค๋ฉด
10:33
that could be washed,
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์‹œ๊ฐ„์ด ์˜ค๋ž˜ ๊ฑธ๋ฆฝ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:34
but Rattray knew that this was religion
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๋ž˜ํŠธ๋ ˆ์ด๋Š” ์ด๊ฒƒ์ด ์ข…๊ต๋ผ๋Š” ์ ์„ ์•Œ๊ณ  ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:37
because souls were in play.
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์˜ํ˜ผ์ด ๋งค๊ฐœ๊ฐ€ ๋˜์—ˆ์œผ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ์š”.
10:41
And similarly,
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๋งˆ์ฐฌ๊ฐ€์ง€๋กœ
10:42
there were many other things, many other practices.
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๋น„์Šทํ•œ ๋ฌผ๊ฑด๋“ค์ด๋‚˜ ๊ด€์Šต์ด ๋งŽ์ด ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:45
For example, every time anybody had a drink, more or less,
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์˜ˆ๋ฅผ ๋“ค์–ด, ๋ˆ„๊ตฐ๊ฐ€ ์ˆ ์„ ๋งˆ์‹œ๋ฉด
10:47
they poured a little bit on the ground
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๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ๋งค๋ฒˆ ์•ฝ๊ฐ„์”ฉ ์ˆ ์„ ๋•…์— ๋ฟŒ๋ฆฝ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:49
in what's called the libation,
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ํ”ํžˆ "์‹ ์ฃผ"๋ผ๊ณ ๋“ค ํ•˜์ฃ .
10:51
and they gave some to the ancestors.
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์กฐ์ƒ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ๋„ ์กฐ๊ธˆ ์ค๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
10:52
My father did this. Every time he opened a bottle of whiskey,
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์ œ ๋ถ€์นœ์€ ํ•ญ์ƒ ์ด๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ํ•˜์…จ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ์œ„์Šคํ‚ค ๋ณ‘์„ ์—ด ๋•Œ๋งˆ๋‹ค,
10:55
which I'm glad to say was very often,
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์•„์ฃผ ์ž์ฃผ๋ผ๊ณ  ๊ธฐ์˜๊ฒŒ ๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆด ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š”๋ฐ์š”,
10:56
he would take the top off and pour off just a little on the ground,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿด ๋•Œ๋งˆ๋‹ค ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€๊ป˜์„œ๋Š” ์œ„์ชฝ ์ผ๋ถ€๋ฅผ ๋•…์— ๋ฟŒ๋ฆฌ์…จ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:00
and he would talk to,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ ๋Š” ๋ง์”€ํ•˜์‹ญ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:02
he would say to Akroma-Ampim, the founder of our line,
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์ €ํฌ ๊ณ„ํŒŒ์˜ ์‹œ์กฐ์ธ ์•„ํฌ๋กœ๋งˆ-์•”ํ•Œ์ด๋‚˜
11:05
or Yao Antony, my great uncle,
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์ œ ํ• ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€ ๋ป˜์ธ ์•ผ์˜ค ์•ˆํ† ๋‹ˆ๊ป˜
11:07
he would talk to them,
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๋ง์„ ๊ฑฐ์‹œ๋Š”๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
11:09
offer them a little bit of this.
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋ฉด์„œ ์ˆ ์„ ๊ถŒํ•˜์…จ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:11
And finally, there were these huge public ceremonials.
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๋งˆ์ง€๋ง‰์œผ๋กœ ์ด๋Ÿฐ ์—„์ฒญ๋‚œ ๊ณต๊ณต ์˜์‹์ด ์žˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:14
This is an early-19th-century drawing
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์ด๊ฒƒ์€ 19์„ธ๊ธฐ ์ดˆ์˜ ๊ทธ๋ฆผ์ธ๋ฐ
11:15
by another British military officer
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฐ ์˜์‹์„ ํ–ˆ๋˜ ๋˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์˜๊ตญ ์žฅ๊ต๊ฐ€
11:16
of such a ceremonial,
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๊ทธ๋ฆฐ ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:18
where the king was involved,
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๊ทธ๋ฆผ์— ์™•์ด ๋“ฑ์žฅํ•˜๋Š”๋ฐ
11:21
and the king's job,
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์™•์˜ ์—ญํ• ,
11:22
one of the large parts of his job,
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์ „์Ÿ ๊ฐ™์€ ๊ฒƒ์„ ๋นผ๊ณ 
11:23
apart from organizing warfare and things like that,
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๊ทธ๊ฐ€ ํ•˜๋Š” ์ค‘์š”ํ•œ ์ผ ๊ฐ€์šด๋ฐ ํ•˜๋‚˜๋Š”
11:26
was to look after the tombs of his ancestors,
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์กฐ์ƒ์˜ ๋ฌ˜๋ฅผ ๋Œ๋ณด๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:29
and when a king died,
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์™•์ด ์ฃฝ์œผ๋ฉด
11:31
the stool that he sat on was blackened
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๊ทธ๊ฐ€ ์•‰์•˜๋˜ ์ž๋ฆฌ๋Š” ๊ฒ€๊ฒŒ ์น ํ•ด์ ธ์„œ
11:33
and put in the royal ancestral temple,
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์™•์˜ ์กฐ์ƒ ๋ฌ˜์— ๋†“์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:36
and every 40 days,
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40์ผ์— ํ•œ๋ฒˆ์”ฉ
11:38
the King of Asante has to go and do cult
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์•„์ƒจํ‹ฐ์˜ ์™•์€ ์กฐ์ƒ์„ ์ฐพ์•„๊ฐ€
11:40
for his ancestors.
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์ œ๋ก€๋ฅผ ์ง€๋‚ด์•ผ๋งŒ ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:41
That's a large part of his job,
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์ด๊ฒƒ์€ ์™•์ด ํ•˜๋Š” ์ค‘์š”ํ•œ ์ผ์— ์†ํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:43
and people think that if he doesn't do it,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์™•์ด ๊ทธ ์ผ์„ ๊ฒŒ์„๋ฆฌํ•˜๋ฉด
11:45
things will fall apart.
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์„ธ์ƒ์ด ๋งํ• ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๊ณ  ์ƒ๊ฐํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:46
So he's a religious figure,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ ๋ž˜ํŠธ๋ ˆ์ด๊ฐ€ ๋งํ–ˆ๋“ฏ์ด
11:49
as Rattray would have said,
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์™•์€ ์ •์น˜์ ์ธ ์กด์žฌ์ผ ๋ฟ๋งŒ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
11:50
as well as a political figure.
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์ข…๊ต์ ์ธ ์กด์žฌ์˜€์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
11:53
So all this would count as religion for Rattray,
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๋ž˜ํŠธ๋ ˆ์ด์—๊ฒŒ ์ด ๋ชจ๋“  ๊ฒƒ์€ ์ข…๊ต์ ์ธ ๊ฒƒ์œผ๋กœ ๋ณด์˜€์ง€๋งŒ,
11:57
but my point is that when you look
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์ œ๊ฐ€ ๊ฐ•์กฐํ•˜๊ณ ์ž ํ•˜๋Š” ๋ฐ”๋Š”
11:59
into the lives of those people,
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๊ทธ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์˜ ์‚ถ์„ ๋“ค์—ฌ๋‹ค ๋ณด๋ฉด
12:01
you also find that every time they do anything,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ๋ญ”๊ฐ€๋ฅผ ํ•  ๋•Œ๋งˆ๋‹ค
12:03
they're conscious of the ancestors.
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์กฐ์ƒ์„ ์˜์‹ํ–ˆ๋‹ค๋Š” ์ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:05
Every morning at breakfast,
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๋งค์ผ ์•„์นจ ์‹์‚ฌ ๋•Œ๋Š”
12:07
you can go outside the front of the house
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์ง‘ ์•ž์— ์„œ์žˆ๋Š”
12:09
and make an offering to the god tree, the nyame dua
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์‹ ์˜ ๋‚˜๋ฌด์ธ ๋ƒ๋ฏธ์ฃผ์•„๋กœ ๋‚˜์•„๊ฐ€
12:12
outside your house,
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๋ฌด์–ธ๊ฐ€๋ฅผ ๋ฐ”์นฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:14
and again, you'll talk to the gods
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์‹ ์—๊ฒŒ,
12:15
and the high gods and the low gods
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๋†’์€ ์‹ ์—๊ฒŒ๋„, ๋‚ฎ์€ ์‹ ์—๊ฒŒ๋„
12:16
and the ancestors and so on.
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์กฐ์ƒ์—๊ฒŒ๋„ ํ•˜๋Š”๊ฑฐ์ฃ .
12:18
This is not a world
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์ด๊ฒƒ์€ ์ข…๊ต์™€ ๊ณผํ•™ ์‚ฌ์ด๊ฐ€
12:19
in which the separation between religion and science
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๋ถ„๋ฆฌ๋  ์ˆ˜ ์žˆ๋Š” ์‚ฌํšŒ๊ฐ€
12:22
has occurred.
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์•„๋‹™๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:24
Religion has not being separated
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์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ์‚ถ์˜ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์–ด๋–ค ์˜์—ญ๊ณผ๋„
12:25
from any other areas of life,
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๋ถ„๋ฆฌ๋˜์ง€ ๋ชปํ•˜๋ฉฐ
12:26
and in particular,
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ํŠนํžˆ,
12:28
what's crucial to understand about this world
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์„ธ์ƒ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ดํ•ด์— ๊ฒฐ์ •์ ์ธ ๊ฒƒ์€
12:30
is that it's a world in which the job
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๊ณผํ•™์ด ์ธ๊ฐ„์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ด
12:32
that science does for us
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๋ž˜ํŠธ๋ ˆ์ด๊ฐ€ ์ข…๊ต๋ผ๊ณ  ๋ถ€๋ฅผ ๊ฒƒ์— ์˜ํ•ด
12:33
is done by what Rattray is going to call religion,
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ํ–‰ํ•ด์ง€๋Š” ์„ธ์ƒ์ด๋ผ๋Š” ์ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:36
because if they want an explanation of something,
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์™œ๋ƒํ•˜๋ฉด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ๋ฌด์—‡์ธ๊ฐ€์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์„ค๋ช…์„ ์›ํ•  ๋•Œ,
12:38
if they want to know why the crop just failed,
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ํ‰๋…„์ด ์ง„ ์ด์œ ๋ฅผ ์•Œ๊ณ  ์‹ถ์„ ๋•Œ,
12:40
if they want to know why it's raining
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์™œ ๋น„๊ฐ€ ์˜ค๋Š”์ง€,
12:41
or not raining, if they need rain,
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ํ˜น์€ ์™œ ํ•„์š”ํ•  ๋•Œ ๋น„๊ฐ€์˜ค์ง€ ์•Š๋Š”์ง€,
12:43
if they want to know why
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ํ˜น์€ ํ• ์•„๋ฒ„์ง€๊ฐ€
12:46
their grandfather has died,
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์™œ ๋Œ์•„๊ฐ€์…จ๋Š”์ง€ ์•Œ๊ณ  ์‹ถ์„ ๋•Œ,
12:48
they are going to appeal to the very same entities,
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์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ๋˜‘๊ฐ™์€ ์กด์žฌ์—๊ฒŒ ํ˜ธ์†Œํ•  ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:51
the very same language,
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๋˜‘๊ฐ™์€ ์–ธ์–ด๋กœ
12:52
talk to the very same gods about that.
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๋˜‘๊ฐ™์€ ์‹ ์—๊ฒŒ ๊ฐ„์ฒญํ•  ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋””.
12:55
This great separation, in other words,
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๋‹ค์‹œ ๋งํ•ด, ์ข…๊ต์™€ ๊ณผํ•™ ๊ฐ„์˜
12:57
between religion and science hasn't happened.
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์—„์ฒญ๋‚œ ๊ดด๋ฆฌ๋Š” ์ผ์–ด๋‚˜์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
12:59
Now, this would be a mere historical curiosity,
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์ด์ œ ์ด๊ฒƒ์€ ๋‹จ์ง€ ์—ญ์‚ฌ์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ํ˜ธ๊ธฐ์‹ฌ์ด ๋˜๊ฒ ์ง€์š”.
13:03
except that in large parts of the world,
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์„ธ๊ณ„ ๋งŽ์€ ๋ถ€๋ถ„์—์„œ
13:07
this is still the truth.
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์ด๊ฒƒ์ด ์ง„๋ฆฌ๋ผ๋Š” ์ ๋งŒ ๋นผ๊ณ ๋Š”์š”.
13:09
I had the privilege of going to a wedding
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์ €๋Š” ๋ถ๋ถ€ ๋‚˜๋ฏธ๋น„์•„์—์„œ
13:11
the other day in northern Namibia,
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๊ฒฐํ˜ผ์‹์— ์ฐธ์„ํ•  ๊ธฐํšŒ๊ฐ€ ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:13
20 miles or so south of the Angolan border
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๊ทธ๊ณณ์€ ์•™๊ณจ๋ผ ๊ทน๊ฒฝ์—์„œ 20๋งˆ์ผ ์ •๋„ ๋‚จ์ชฝ์— ์œ„์น˜ํ•œ
13:16
in a village of 200 people.
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์ธ๊ตฌ 200๋ช…์˜ ๋งˆ์„์ด์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
13:18
These were modern people.
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์ฃผ๋ฏผ๋“ค์€ ํ˜„๋Œ€์ ์ด์—ˆ๊ณ 
13:19
We had with us Oona Chaplin,
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์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„๋“ค ์ค‘ ์ผ๋ถ€๋Š” ์•Œ๊ณ  ๊ณ„์‹ค
13:21
who some of you may have heard of,
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์šฐ๋‚˜ ์ฑ„ํ”Œ๋ฆฐ์ด ์šฐ๋ฆฌ์™€ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ์žˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:22
and one of the people from this village came up to her,
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๋งˆ์„ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ ํ•œ ๋ช…์ด ๊ทธ๋…€์—๊ฒŒ ๋‹ค๊ฐ€๊ฐ€ ์ด๋ ‡๊ฒŒ ๋งํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:24
and said, "I've seen you in 'Game of Thrones.'"
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"์™•์ขŒ์˜ ๊ฒŒ์ž„(Game of Thrones)์—์„œ ๋ดค์–ด์š”."
13:27
So these were not people who were isolated from our world,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿฌ๋‹ˆ๊นŒ ์ด๋“ค์€ ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ ๊ณ ๋ฆฝ๋œ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
13:31
but nevertheless, for them,
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๊ทธ๋Ÿผ์—๋„ ๋ถˆ๊ตฌํ•˜๊ณ , ๊ทธ ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์—๊ฒŒ
13:32
the gods and the spirits are still very much there,
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์‹ ์ด๋‚˜ ์˜ํ˜ผ์€ ์—ฌ์ „ํžˆ ์กด์žฌํ•˜๊ณ 
13:35
and when we were on the bus going back and forth
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์šฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ€ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ [์ œ๋ก€]์— ์ฐธ์„ํ•˜๋Š๋ผ
13:37
to the various parts of the [ceremony],
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๋ฒ„์Šค๋ฅผ ํƒ€๊ณ  ์˜ค๊ฐˆ ๋•Œ,
13:38
they prayed not just in a generic way
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ํ†ต์ƒ์ ์ธ ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ• ๋ฟ ์•„๋‹ˆ๋ผ
13:41
but for the safety of the journey,
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์—ฌํ–‰์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์•ˆ์ „์„ ์œ„ํ•ด ๊ธฐ๋„ํ•˜์˜€์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:42
and they meant it,
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๊ทธ๊ฑด ๊ทธ๋“ค์˜ ์ง„์‹ฌ์ด์—ˆ์–ด์š”.
13:43
and when they said to me that my mother,
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๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ์ œ๊ฒŒ ์ €์˜ ์–ด๋จธ๋‹ˆ,
13:46
the bridegroom's [grandmother],
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์ฆ‰ ์‹ ๋ž‘์˜ ํ• ๋จธ๋‹ˆ๊ฐ€
13:48
was with us, they didn't mean it figuratively.
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์ž์‹ ๋“ค๊ณผ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ํ•œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ํ–ˆ์„ ๋•Œ, ๊ทธ๊ฒƒ์€ ์ƒ์ง•์ ์œผ๋กœ ๊ทธ๋ ‡๋‹ค๋Š” ๋œป์ด ์•„๋‹ˆ์—ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:51
They meant, even though she was a dead person,
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ํ• ๋จธ๋‹ˆ๋Š” ์ด๋ฏธ ๊ณ ์ธ์ด์—ˆ์ง€๋งŒ
13:53
they meant that she was still around.
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๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ๊ทธ ๋ถ„์ด ์ •๋ง๋กœ ๊ทธ๊ณณ์„ ๋Œ์•„๋‹ค๋‹Œ๋‹ค๊ณ  ๋ฐ›์•„๋“ค์˜€์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
13:56
So in large parts of the world today,
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์˜ค๋Š˜๋‚  ๋Œ€๋ถ€๋ถ„ ์„ธ์ƒ์—์„œ
13:59
that separation between science and religion
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๊ณผํ•™๊ณผ ์ข…๊ต์˜ ๋ถ„๋ฆฌ๋Š”
14:01
hasn't occurred in large parts of the world today,
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์ผ์–ด๋‚˜์ง€ ์•Š์•˜์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:02
and as I say, these are not --
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๋ง์”€๋“œ๋ฆฐ๋Œ€๋กœ, ๊ทธ๋ ‡์ง€ ์•Š์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:06
This guy used to work for Chase and at the World Bank.
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์ด ์นœ๊ตฌ๋Š” ์ฒด์ด์Šค [์€ํ–‰]๊ณผ ์„ธ๊ณ„์€ํ–‰์—์„œ ์ผํ–ˆ์Šต๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:11
These are fellow citizens of the world with you,
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์ด ์‚ฌ๋žŒ๋“ค์€ ์—ฌ๋Ÿฌ๋ถ„๊ณผ ํ•จ๊ป˜ ํ•˜๋Š” ๋™๋ฃŒ ์‹œ๋ฏผ๋“ค์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:14
but they come from a place in which religion
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ํ•˜์ง€๋งŒ ๊ทธ๋“ค์€ ์ข…๊ต๊ฐ€ ์•„์ฃผ ๋‹ค๋ฅธ ์—ญํ• ์„ ํ•˜๋Š”
14:15
is occupying a very different role.
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์„ธ์ƒ ์ถœ์‹ ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:17
So what I want you to think about next time somebody wants
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๊ทธ๋ž˜์„œ ๋ˆ„๊ตฐ๊ฐ€๊ฐ€
14:19
to make some vast generalization about religion
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์ข…๊ต์— ๋Œ€ํ•œ ๊ฑฐ๋Œ€ํ•œ ์ผ๋ฐ˜ํ™”๋ฅผ ํ•˜๋ ค๊ณ  ํ•  ๋•Œ ์œ ๋…ํ•˜์…จ์œผ๋ฉด ํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
14:22
is that maybe there isn't such a thing
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์–ด์ฉŒ๋ฉด ์ข…๊ต๋ผ๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
14:25
as a religion, such a thing as religion,
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์กด์žฌํ•˜์ง€ ์•Š๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ธ์ง€๋„ ๋ชจ๋ฅด๊ณ ,
14:27
and that therefore what they say
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๋”ฐ๋ผ์„œ ๊ทธ๋“ค์ด ๋งํ•˜๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์€
14:29
cannot possibly be true.
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์‚ฌ์‹ค์ผ ์ˆ˜๊ฐ€ ์—†๋‹ค๋Š” ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค.
14:32
(Applause)
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(๋ฐ•์ˆ˜)
์ด ์›น์‚ฌ์ดํŠธ ์ •๋ณด

์ด ์‚ฌ์ดํŠธ๋Š” ์˜์–ด ํ•™์Šต์— ์œ ์šฉํ•œ YouTube ๋™์˜์ƒ์„ ์†Œ๊ฐœํ•ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ์ „ ์„ธ๊ณ„ ์ตœ๊ณ ์˜ ์„ ์ƒ๋‹˜๋“ค์ด ๊ฐ€๋ฅด์น˜๋Š” ์˜์–ด ์ˆ˜์—…์„ ๋ณด๊ฒŒ ๋  ๊ฒƒ์ž…๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ๊ฐ ๋™์˜์ƒ ํŽ˜์ด์ง€์— ํ‘œ์‹œ๋˜๋Š” ์˜์–ด ์ž๋ง‰์„ ๋”๋ธ” ํด๋ฆญํ•˜๋ฉด ๊ทธ๊ณณ์—์„œ ๋™์˜์ƒ์ด ์žฌ์ƒ๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ๋น„๋””์˜ค ์žฌ์ƒ์— ๋งž์ถฐ ์ž๋ง‰์ด ์Šคํฌ๋กค๋ฉ๋‹ˆ๋‹ค. ์˜๊ฒฌ์ด๋‚˜ ์š”์ฒญ์ด ์žˆ๋Š” ๊ฒฝ์šฐ ์ด ๋ฌธ์˜ ์–‘์‹์„ ์‚ฌ์šฉํ•˜์—ฌ ๋ฌธ์˜ํ•˜์‹ญ์‹œ์˜ค.

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