Kwame Anthony Appiah: Is religion good or bad? (This is a trick question)

譯者: Geoff Chen 審譯者: Peipei Xiang

People say things about religion all the time.

人們常常討論宗教。

(Laughter)

（觀衆笑聲）

The late, great Christopher Hitchens

已逝的著名作家克里斯托弗·希欽斯

wrote a book called "God Is Not Great"

寫了一本書叫做《上帝不偉大》，

whose subtitle was, "Religion Poisons Everything."

副標題叫做“宗教毒害一切”。

(Laughter)

（觀眾笑聲）

But last month, in Time magazine,

但是上個月，時代雜誌刊登了

Rabbi David Wolpe, who I gather is referred to as America's rabbi,

拉比大衛·沃普的一段話， 他被公認為美國的拉比（智者），

said, to balance that against that negative characterization,

反駁這些對宗教的負面描述，

that no important form of social change

他說：任何形式的社會改革

can be brought about except through organized religion.

都只能通過有組織的宗教活動進行。

Now, remarks of this sort on the negative

這些關於宗教正面與負面的評價

and the positive side are very old.

都是老生常談了。

I have one in my pocket here

我口袋裡就有一句話是

from the first century BCE by Lucretius,

公元一世紀的盧克萊斯說的，

the author of "On the Nature of Things," who said,

他是《物性論》的作者，他這樣說道，

"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum" --

“Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum”（拉丁文），

I should have been able to learn that by heart —

我應該把這句話背下來。

which is, that's how much religion

這句話的意思就是，宗教

is able to persuade people to do evil,

就是這樣慫恿人們向惡。

and he was talking about the fact

他講訴了

of Agamemnon's decision to place his daughter

阿伽蒙農爲了軍隊無往不勝

Iphigenia on an altar of sacrifice

而要把他自己的女兒依菲琴妮婭

in order to preserve the prospects of his army.

送上祭壇作爲犧牲的事實。

So there have been these long debates

所以這些關於宗教的辯論

over the centuries, in that case, actually,

已經持續了幾個世紀，而按這個例子來看，

we can say over the millennia, about religion.

我們可以說關於宗教的爭論 已經持續了幾千年。

People have talked about it a lot,

人們經常討論這個話題，

and they've said good and bad

他們表達了很多關於宗教的好的壞的

and indifferent things about it.

和無所謂的觀點。

What I want to persuade you of today

我今天想跟大家說的，

is of a very simple claim,

是一個簡單的觀點。

which is that these debates are

那就是，這些爭論

in a certain sense preposterous,

從某種意義上來說都是荒謬可笑的，

because there is no such thing as religion

那是因爲這個世界上 根本就沒有宗教這個東西，

about which to make these claims.

所以這些爭論純是無稽之談。

There isn't a thing called religion,

既然沒有宗教這個東西

and so it can't be good or bad.

也就沒有好於壞之分，

It can't even be indifferent.

甚至都不可能對其無所謂。

And if you think about claims

如果你想想這些關於

about the nonexistence of things,

事物的不存在性的觀點，

one obvious way to try and establish

有一個顯而易見的

the nonexistence of a purported thing

來確定這些想像的事物的 不存在性的方法

would be to offer a definition of that thing

就是先提出一个定義，

and then to see whether anything satisfied it.

然後看看哪些事物符合這個定義。

I'm going to start out on that little route

現在我準備就開始

to begin with.

以這一點開始討論。

So if you look in the dictionaries

如果你去查字典，

and if you think about it,

如果你想想這些事情，

one very natural definition of religion

一個對宗教的非常自然的解釋就是

is that it involves belief in gods or in spiritual beings.

宗教是對神靈和有神性事物的信仰。

As I say, this is in many dictionaries,

我是說，這是在很多字典裏面的解釋，

but you'll also find it actually

但是你也會發現其實在

in the work of Sir Edward Tylor,

牛津大學第一位人類學教授，

who was the first professor of anthropology at Oxford,

現代人類學先鋒之一，

one of the first modern anthropologists.

爵士愛德華泰勒的著作中就提到過。

In his book on primitive culture,

在他的有關原始文化的書裡面，

he says the heart of religion is what he called animism,

他提到，宗教的核心就是萬物有靈，

that is, the belief in spiritual agency,

也就是相信神體，

belief in spirits.

信仰靈性。

The first problem for that definition

這個定義的第一個挑戰

is from a recent novel by Paul Beatty called "Tuff."

來自最近保羅貝·蒂的一本小說《塔夫》。

There's a guy talking to a rabbi.

他寫到一個人向拉比求教，

The rabbi says he doesn't believe in God.

拉比說他自己不相信上帝。

The guy says, "You're a rabbi, how can you not believe in God?"

那人就說“你可是拉比啊，你怎麼能不相信上帝？”

And the reply is, "It's what's so great about being Jewish.

回答是“這就是做猶太人的好處。”

You don't have to believe in a God per se,

你不需要去相信上帝本身，

just in being Jewish." (Laughter)

只要相信自己是猶太人。“（笑聲）

So if this guy is a rabbi, and a Jewish rabbi,

所以如果這個人是拉比，並且是猶太拉比，

and if you have to believe in God in order to be religious,

而如果只有信仰上帝才算信教，

then we have the rather counterintuitive conclusion

那麼我們會得到一個有悖常理的結論，

that since it's possible to be a Jewish rabbi

那就是你不可能成爲一位不信仰上帝的

without believing in God,

猶太拉比，

Judaism isn't a religion.

猶太教不是一個宗教。

That seems like a pretty counterintuitive thought.

這個結論似乎有悖常理。

Here's another argument against this view.

這裡還有另外一個反駁這個定義的觀點。

A friend of mine, an Indian friend of mine,

我有一個印度的朋友，

went to his grandfather when he was very young,

他年輕的時候去他祖父家，

a child, and said to him,

還是個小孩，他跟祖父說，

"I want to talk to you about religion,"

“我想跟你談談宗教。”

and his grandfather said, "You're too young.

祖父回答他說：“你還太小。

Come back when you're a teenager."

等你長大成少年了再來找我。“

So he came back when he was a teenager,

所以他長大成少年後又去找他祖父，

and he said to his grandfather,

他跟祖父說：

"It may be a bit late now

“現在可能有點晚了，

because I've discovered that I don't believe in the gods."

因爲我發現自己根本不相信有神靈。“

And his grandfather, who was a wise man, said,

他的祖父是一個很有智慧的人，他說道：

"Oh, so you belong to the atheist branch

“哦，所以你是屬於印度教

of the Hindu tradition." (Laughter)

無神論派的嘍。”（笑聲）

And finally, there's this guy,

最後，這人

who famously doesn't believe in God.

成了世界有名的不相信神的人。

His name is the Dalai Lama.

他的名字是達賴喇嘛。

He often jokes that he's one of the world's leading atheists.

他經常開玩笑的說自己是世界上 領先的無神論者。

But it's true, because the Dalai Lama's religion

但是這是真的，因爲達賴喇嘛的宗教信仰

does not involve belief in God.

並不包括信仰神。

Now you might think this just shows

現在你可能認爲這只能說明

that I've given you the wrong definition

我提出了一個錯誤的定義。

and that I should come up with some other definition

那麼我必須得重新定義，

and test it against these cases

然後再檢驗這些例子，

and try and find something that captures

找到一個可以涵蓋

atheistic Judaism, atheistic Hinduism,

無神猶太教，無神印度教

and atheistic Buddhism as forms of religiosity,

和無神佛教的宗教定義，

but I actually think that that's a bad idea,

但是其實我認爲這不是個好主意，

and the reason I think it's a bad idea

我認爲這不是個好主意的理由是

is that I don't think that's how

我不認爲

our concept of religion works.

我們的宗教概念是這樣來的。

I think the way our concept of religion works

我認爲我們的宗教概念是這樣來的，

is that we actually have, we have a list

我們實際上有的是一個

of paradigm religions

宗教範例的列表

and their sub-parts, right,

和其支系的清單，對麼，

and if something new comes along

如果有新的

that purports to be a religion,

聲稱是宗教的事物出現，

what we ask is, "Well, is it like one of these?"

我們只需要問“這個是其中之一麼？”

Right?

對麼？

And I think that's not only how we think about religion,

我認爲我們不止這樣理解宗教，

and that's, as it were,

而且，從某種意義上來說，

so from our point of view,

我們認為

anything on that list had better be a religion,

那個列表上所列的應該都是宗教，

which is why I don't think an account of religion

這就是爲什麼我認爲

that excludes Buddhism and Judaism

無法包含佛教和猶太教的宗教定義

has a chance of being a good starter,

不是一個好的開始，

because they're on our list.

因爲這兩個宗教都在我們的列表上。

But why do we have such a list?

但是我們爲什麼有這樣一個列表呢？

What's going on? How did it come about

到底發生了什麼？

that we have this list?

我們是怎麼想到要這樣一個列表呢？

I think the answer is a pretty simple one

我認爲答案非常簡單，

and therefore crude and contentious.

也因此粗糙和爭議不斷。

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with it,

我相信很多人都會持反對觀點，

but here's my story,

但是這是我的故事，

and true or not, it's a story that I think

不管是真是假，我認爲

gives you a good sense of how

這個故事告訴我們

the list might have come about,

這個列表是怎樣來的，

and therefore helps you to think about

也因此可以幫助你思考

what use the list might be.

這個列表的作用。

I think the answer is, European travelers,

我認爲答案就是，歐洲的旅行家們，

starting roughly about the time of Columbus,

粗略地從哥倫布開始算起，

started going around the world.

開始環遊世界。

They came from a Christian culture,

他們都是來自基督教文化，

and when they arrived in a new place,

當他們來到一個新地方，

they noticed that some people didn't have Christianity,

他們發現有些人並不信仰基督教，

and so they asked themselves the following question:

所以他們就問自己這個問題：

what have they got instead of Christianity?

沒有基督教，他們有什麼？

And that list was essentially constructed.

由此一個列表就誕生了。

It consists of the things that other people had

這個列表包括了很多

instead of Christianity.

非基督教的信仰。

Now there's a difficulty with proceeding in that way,

到這裡我們就遇到了一個問題，

which is that Christianity is extremely,

基督教，即使在這個列表上面，

even on that list, it's an extremely specific tradition.

有著非常具體的傳統。

It has all kinds of things in it

它包含了各種各樣的

that are very, very particular

非常獨特的東西，

that are the results of the specifics

這些都是由其獨特的基督歷史

of Christian history,

所形成的結果，

and one thing that's at the heart of it,

而居於此核心的是，

one thing that's at the heart of most understandings of Christianity,

大部分對由獨特基督教歷史所形成的

which is the result of the specific history of Christianity,

基督教的理解的核心是，

is that it's an extremely creedal religion.

它是非常教條的宗教。

It's a religion in which people are really concerned

這個宗教非常注重

about whether you believe the right things.

你是否信仰正確的事物。

The history of Christianity, the internal history of Christianity,

基督教的歷史，它內部的歷史，

is largely the history of people killing each other

大部分是人們互相殘殺的歷史，

because they believed the wrong thing,

因爲他們信仰了錯誤的事物，

and it's also involved in

這歷史還包括了

struggles with other religions,

與其他宗教的爭鬥，

obviously starting in the Middle Ages,

當然是由中世紀開始，

a struggle with Islam,

和伊斯蘭的衝突，

in which, again, it was the infidelity,

就是因爲無神論，

the fact that they didn't believe the right things,

因爲他們不信仰正確的事物，

that seemed so offensive to the Christian world.

讓基督教世界感到備受侮辱。

Now that's a very specific and particular history

這是基督教歷史

that Christianity has,

非常獨特的地方，

and not everywhere is everything

不是所有被放在這個清單上的東西

that has ever been put on this sort of list like it.

都是這樣的。

Here's another problem, I think.

我認爲，還有一個問題，

A very specific thing happened.

一件非常特殊的事情發生了。

It was actually adverted to earlier,

其實我們前面有提到過，

but a very specific thing happened

我們現在大部分美國人

in the history of the kind of Christianity

所熟知的基督教歷史上

that we see around us

發生了

mostly in the United States today,

一件非常重要的事情，

and it happened in the late 19th century,

這件事情發生在十九世紀後期。

and that specific thing that happened

這件發生在十九世紀後期的

in the late 19th century

特殊的事情

was a kind of deal that was cut

在科學與宗教之間

between science,

樹立了界限，

this new way of organizing intellectual authority,

科學成為了新的

and religion.

組織知識的權威。

If you think about the 18th century, say,

你設想一下十八世紀，

if you think about intellectual life

你設想一下

before the late 19th century,

十九世紀以前的知識界，

anything you did, anything you thought about,

你做的任何事，想的任何事，

whether it was the physical world,

不管是物質世界，

the human world,

人類世界，

the natural world apart from the human world,

還是與人類相對的自然世界，

or morality, anything you did

或是道德，你做的任何事

would have been framed against the background

都會被放在

of a set of assumptions that were religious,

宗教信仰、基督教信仰的

Christian assumptions.

背景下去考慮。

You couldn't give an account

你會發現

of the natural world

任何一個對自然世界的描述

that didn't say something about its relationship,

都涉及到自然世界與宗教世界的關聯，

for example, to the creation story

比如，亚伯拉罕故事中的

in the Abrahamic tradition,

創世論，

the creation story in the first book of the Torah.

第一本猶太宗教律法《托拉》中的創世論。

So everything was framed in that way.

所有的東西都是跟宗教有關的。

But this changes in the late 19th century,

但是十九世紀後期發生了改變，

and for the first time, it's possible for people

這是第一次，人們可以

to develop serious intellectual careers

認真從事科學事業，

as natural historians like Darwin.

就像自然歷史學家達爾文那樣。

Darwin worried about the relationship between

達爾文擔憂他所說的

what he said and the truths of religion,

和宗教真相之間的關係，

but he could proceed, he could write books

但是他能夠繼續，

about his subject

並寫下自己的題材，

without having to say what the relationship was

而不需要提及它們與

to the religious claims,

宗教信仰之間的關係，

and similarly, geologists increasingly could talk about it.

相同地，地質學家也可以 開始逐漸發表言論。

In the early 19th century, if you were a geologist

在十九世紀初期，如果你是一個地質學家

and made a claim about the age of the Earth,

對地球的年紀進行推測，

you had to explain whether that was consistent

你必須解釋這個年紀

or how it was or wasn't consistent

是否與創世紀中提到的

with the age of the Earth implied

地球年紀吻合，

by the account in Genesis.

怎樣吻合或是怎樣不吻合。

By the end of the 19th century,

到了十九世紀末期，

you can just write a geology textbook

你則可以寫一本地質學的教科書，

in which you make arguments about how old the Earth is.

裡面談到你對地球年紀的推測。

So there's a big change, and that division,

所以這是一個很大的改變，這種分離，

that intellectual division of labor occurs as I say, I think,

使得腦力勞動分工得以發生，

and it sort of solidifies so that by the end

在十九世紀末期的歐洲

of the 19th century in Europe,

更加得到了鞏固，

there's a real intellectual division of labor,

產生了真正意義上的腦力勞動分工，

and you can do all sorts of serious things,

你可以做很多嚴肅的事情，

including, increasingly, even philosophy,

包括很多，甚至哲學，

without being constrained by the thought,

思想不再被禁錮，

"Well, what I have to say has to be consistent

“我所說的需要與

with the deep truths that are given to me

宗教教會我的事實

by our religious tradition."

保持一致。”

So imagine someone who's coming out

想像一下一個人走出

of that world, that late-19th-century world,

那個十九世紀末期的世界，

coming into the country that I grew up in, Ghana,

來到我成長的國家，加納，

the society that I grew up in, Asante,

我成長的社會，阿桑特部落，

coming into that world

來到20世紀轉折點的

at the turn of the 20th century

那個世界，

with this question that made the list:

帶著形成那個清單的問題：

what have they got instead of Christianity?

沒有基督教，他們有什麼？

Well, here's one thing he would have noticed,

有個事情他將會注意到，

and by the way, there was a person who actually did this.

順便一提，的確有人注意到了。

His name was Captain Rattray,

他的名字叫船長拉特雷，

he was sent as the British government anthropologist,

他是英國政府派遣的人類學家，

and he wrote a book about Asante religion.

寫了一本關於阿桑特宗教的書。

This is a soul disc.

這是一個靈魂盤，

There are many of them in the British Museum.

大英博物館有很多。

I could give you an interesting, different history

我可以給你一個 有趣的、不一樣的歷史，

of how it comes about that many of the things

關於我們部落的東西

from my society ended up in the British Museum,

最後是怎麼跑到大英博物館的，

but we don't have time for that.

但是我們現在沒有時間講這個。

So this object is a soul disc.

言歸正傳，這是一個靈魂盤。

What is a soul disc?

什麼是靈魂盤？

It was worn around the necks

這是繞在阿桑特國王的

of the soul-washers of the Asante king.

靈魂洗滌人的脖子上的東西。

What was their job? To wash the king's soul.

他們的工作是什麼？洗滌國王的靈魂。

It would take a long while

估計得花不少時間

to explain how a soul could be the kind of thing

來解釋靈魂這種東西

that could be washed,

怎麼能被洗，

but Rattray knew that this was religion

但是拉特雷知道這是宗教，

because souls were in play.

因爲有靈魂參與其中。

And similarly,

同樣的，

there were many other things, many other practices.

還有很多其他的東西，儀式。

For example, every time anybody had a drink, more or less,

舉個例子，任何人每次喝東西，多多少少

they poured a little bit on the ground

總要潑一點在地上，

in what's called the libation,

這被稱爲祭酒，

and they gave some to the ancestors.

他們獻一點給祖先。

My father did this. Every time he opened a bottle of whiskey,

我的父親也會這樣做。 每次他打開一瓶威士忌，

which I'm glad to say was very often,

我很高興地說，他經常這樣做，

he would take the top off and pour off just a little on the ground,

他會去掉瓶蓋，倒一點在地上，

and he would talk to,

然後他會跟，

he would say to Akroma-Ampim, the founder of our line,

他會跟我們的祖先 Akroma-Ampim

or Yao Antony, my great uncle,

或者姚‧安東尼，我的祖叔叔，

he would talk to them,

他會跟他們交流，

offer them a little bit of this.

給他們嚐點這酒。

And finally, there were these huge public ceremonials.

最後，還有大的公衆慶典。

This is an early-19th-century drawing

這是十九世紀早期

by another British military officer

另一位英國軍官畫的

of such a ceremonial,

這樣一個慶典的畫作，

where the king was involved,

國王也在其中，

and the king's job,

國王的任務，

one of the large parts of his job,

他最主要的任務，

apart from organizing warfare and things like that,

除了組織打仗之類的事情外，

was to look after the tombs of his ancestors,

就是照看祖先的墳墓，

and when a king died,

當一個國王去世，

the stool that he sat on was blackened

他坐過的椅子會被塗黑

and put in the royal ancestral temple,

並被放在皇室祖墳廟裏，

and every 40 days,

每40天，

the King of Asante has to go and do cult

阿桑特國王就要去一次，祭拜一下

for his ancestors.

他的祖先。

That's a large part of his job,

這是他的主要工作 ，

and people think that if he doesn't do it,

人們覺得如果國王沒有做到這點，

things will fall apart.

這個國家就要分崩離析了。

So he's a religious figure,

所以國王既是一個宗教領袖，

as Rattray would have said,

就像拉特雷會說的，

as well as a political figure.

也是一個政治領袖。

So all this would count as religion for Rattray,

所有的這些對拉特雷來說都是宗教，

but my point is that when you look

而我想說的是，當你

into the lives of those people,

注意觀察這些人的生活時，

you also find that every time they do anything,

你也會發現每次他們做任何事情

they're conscious of the ancestors.

都會想着祖先們。

Every morning at breakfast,

每天早晨吃早飯的時候，

you can go outside the front of the house

你要走到房子前方

and make an offering to the god tree, the nyame dua

給你房子外面的

outside your house,

聖樹獻上一些祭品，

and again, you'll talk to the gods

然後你要跟聖樹說話，

and the high gods and the low gods

有高階位的神，低階位的神，

and the ancestors and so on.

祖先，其他等等。

This is not a world

這是一個

in which the separation between religion and science

宗教與科學還未分離的

has occurred.

世界。

Religion has not being separated

宗教還沒有

from any other areas of life,

從生活的任何方面剝離出去，

and in particular,

尤其是，

what's crucial to understand about this world

理解這個世界的重點是，

is that it's a world in which the job

在這個世界裡，

that science does for us

科學爲我們做的事情

is done by what Rattray is going to call religion,

是由拉特雷所說的宗教完成的，

because if they want an explanation of something,

因為如果他們想要任何解釋，

if they want to know why the crop just failed,

如果他們想知道爲什麼莊稼謝了，

if they want to know why it's raining

如果他們想知道爲什麼下雨了，

or not raining, if they need rain,

或者他們想下雨卻沒有雨，

if they want to know why

如果他們想知道爲什麼

their grandfather has died,

他們的祖父去世了，

they are going to appeal to the very same entities,

他們會向同一個地方求助，

the very same language,

用相同的語言，

talk to the very same gods about that.

跟相同的神靈訴說。

This great separation, in other words,

這個偉大的分離，換句話說，

between religion and science hasn't happened.

宗教與科學的分離還未發生。

Now, this would be a mere historical curiosity,

也許這只是單純的歷史趣事，

except that in large parts of the world,

不過事實是在世界很大一部分地方

this is still the truth.

還是這樣的情況。

I had the privilege of going to a wedding

有天我很榮幸參加

the other day in northern Namibia,

在納米比亞北部舉行的一個婚禮，

20 miles or so south of the Angolan border

位於安哥拉邊界向南20英里

in a village of 200 people.

一個200人的村莊。

These were modern people.

這些都是現代人。

We had with us Oona Chaplin,

和我們在一起的一個人是歐娜‧卓別林，

who some of you may have heard of,

你們有些人可能聽過她的名字，

and one of the people from this village came up to her,

一個村民走向她，

and said, "I've seen you in 'Game of Thrones.'"

說，“我在‘權力遊戲’電視劇裏面見過你。”

So these were not people who were isolated from our world,

所以這些人並不是 與我們的世界隔離的人，

but nevertheless, for them,

但是，對他們來說，

the gods and the spirits are still very much there,

上帝和神靈佔據了生活的大部分，

and when we were on the bus going back and forth

當我們坐上巴士

to the various parts of the [ceremony],

在（慶典的）各個場合來回時，

they prayed not just in a generic way

他們並不是籠統地祈禱，

but for the safety of the journey,

而是祈求旅途平安，

and they meant it,

他們都是真心的，

and when they said to me that my mother,

當他們和我說，我媽媽，

the bridegroom's [grandmother],

新郎的“祖母”，

was with us, they didn't mean it figuratively.

也跟我們在一起的時候，他們並不是比喻。

They meant, even though she was a dead person,

他們意思是，儘管她已不在人世，

they meant that she was still around.

她仍舊在他們周圍。

So in large parts of the world today,

所以在這個世界的很多地方，

that separation between science and religion

宗教與科學的分離

hasn't occurred in large parts of the world today,

尚未發生，

and as I say, these are not --

就像我說的，這些人不是--

This guy used to work for Chase and at the World Bank.

這個人曾經在大通銀行和世界銀行工作，

These are fellow citizens of the world with you,

這些是跟你一樣的人，

but they come from a place in which religion

但是在他們的世界裡，

is occupying a very different role.

宗教扮演着非常獨特的角色。

So what I want you to think about next time somebody wants

所以我想告訴你們的是，下次有人

to make some vast generalization about religion

想對宗教做一個寬泛的概括的時候，

is that maybe there isn't such a thing

可能宗教根本不存在，

as a religion, such a thing as religion,

沒有宗教這個東西，

and that therefore what they say

所以他們所說的任何東西

cannot possibly be true.

都不可能是真的。

(Applause)

（掌聲）