Cynthia Kenyon: Experiments that hint of longer lives

95,542 views ・ 2011-11-17

TED


请双击下面的英文字幕来播放视频。

翻译人员: Angelia King 校对人员: Vivian Chen
00:15
Have you ever wanted to stay young a little longer
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大家有没有想过要年轻再久一点
00:18
and put off aging?
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延缓衰老呢?
00:20
This is a dream of the ages.
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这是很久以来的梦想了
00:23
But scientists have for a long time
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不过科学家以前一直认为
00:25
thought this just was never going to be possible.
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这大概根本永远不可能
00:27
They thought you just wear out, there's nothing you can do about it --
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他们认为每个人就是慢慢被消耗这个事实没办法改变
00:30
kind of like an old shoe.
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就像被磨损的旧鞋子
00:32
But if you look in nature,
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不过转而观察大自然的话
00:34
you see that different kinds of animals
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我们发现不同种的动物
00:36
can have really different lifespans.
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寿命差异可以非常之大
00:38
Now these animals are different from one another,
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这些动物彼此不一样
00:40
because they have different genes.
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是因为它们有不同的基因
00:42
So that suggests
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这就启发我们
00:44
that somewhere in these genes, somewhere in the DNA,
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在这些基因里的某个地方,在DNA里面
00:46
are genes for aging,
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有控制衰老的基因
00:48
genes that allow them to have different lifespans.
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让动物们有不同的寿命期
00:50
So if there are genes like that,
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所以有这样的基因
00:52
then you can imagine that,
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我们就能想像到
00:54
if you could change one of the genes in an experiment,
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如果我们通过实验改变一个基因
00:56
an aging gene,
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那个衰老基因
00:58
maybe you could slow down aging and extend lifespan.
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说不定就可以延缓衰老,延长寿命
01:01
And if you could do that, then you could find the genes for aging.
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如果这样做了,就可以找到那些衰老基因
01:04
And if they exist and you can find them,
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如果这些衰老基因真的存在并且能找到
01:06
then maybe one could eventually do something about it.
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那也许有人就能对它做点什么
01:09
So we've set out to look for genes that control aging.
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所以我们就开始寻找那些控制衰老的基因
01:12
And we didn't study any of these animals.
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不过我们没有研究刚才那些动物
01:15
Instead, we studied a little, tiny, round worm called C. elegans,
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而是研究一种小小圆圆的蠕虫,叫做秀丽隐杆线虫
01:18
which is just about the size of a comma in a sentence.
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大小刚好和句子里面逗号的大小差不多
01:21
And we were really optimistic that we could find something
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我们很有信心能找到相关的基因
01:24
because there had been a report of a long-lived mutant.
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因为曾经有种长寿变异的个体记录在案
01:27
So we started to change genes at random,
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所以我们就随机改变线虫的基因
01:29
looking for long-lived animals.
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寻找长寿的那些
01:31
And we were very lucky to find
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结果我们很幸运地发现
01:33
that mutations that damage one single gene called daf-2
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损坏单个基因daf-2的这种变异
01:37
doubled the lifespan of the little worm.
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能让这种小虫的寿命翻倍
01:40
So you can see in black, after a month --
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所以能看到这条黑色曲线,一个月以后--
01:42
they're very short-lived; that's why we like to study them
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这些线虫的寿命很短,这就是为什么我们用它们来做
01:44
for studies of aging --
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寿命的研究--
01:46
in black, after a month, the normal worms are all dead.
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黑色曲线表示一个月以后,正常线虫都死亡了
01:49
But at that time,
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但是同时
01:51
most of the mutant worms are still alive.
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大部分变异线虫还活着
01:53
And it isn't until twice as long
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直到又过了同样长的时间
01:55
that they're all dead.
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它们才死亡
01:57
And now I want to show what they actually look like in this movie here.
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现在我来用视频演示线虫真正是什么样子
02:00
So the first thing you're going to see
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首先这里看到的
02:02
is the normal worm
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是正常的线虫
02:04
when it's about college student age -- a young adult.
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大概在我们大学生的年龄--青年人的年龄
02:07
It's quite a cute little fellow.
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很可爱的小家伙
02:10
And next you're going to see the long-lived mutant when it's young.
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下面你将看到年轻的长寿变异体
02:13
So this animal is going to live twice as long.
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它会活到正常线虫两倍的年龄
02:15
Is it miserable? It doesn't seem to be.
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很可怜吧?其实不是
02:17
It's active. You can't tell the difference really.
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它相当活跃,和正常线虫几乎看不出区别
02:20
And they can be completely fertile --
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而且它们也有繁殖能力--
02:22
have the same number of progeny as the normal worms do.
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后代的数目可以和正常线虫的一样多
02:24
Now get out your handkerchiefs here.
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现在准备拿出手绢来擦眼泪吧
02:26
You're going to see, in just two weeks,
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你会看到,就在仅仅两周之后
02:28
the normal worms are old.
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正常的线虫就老了
02:30
You can see the little head moving down at the bottom there.
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可以看见它的头在屏幕下面,在动
02:33
But everything else is just lying there.
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但是其它部位就只是躺在那儿不动
02:35
The animal's clearly in the nursing home.
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它显然已经在老人院了
02:37
And if you look at the tissues of the animal, they're starting to deteriorate.
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再看它的身体组织,能看到已经老化了
02:40
You know, even if you've never seen one of these little C. elegans --
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你看,就算从来没见过秀丽隐杆线虫--
02:42
which probably most of you haven't seen one --
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多数人应该是没见过--
02:44
you can tell they're old -- isn't that interesting?
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你就知道它们老了--这不是很有意思吗?
02:47
So there's something about aging that's kind of universal.
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衰老这件事是有普世性的
02:50
And now here is the daf-2 mutant.
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现在这个是daf-2变异体
02:53
One gene is changed out of 20,000, and look at it.
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20000个基因里只改变了一个,看
02:55
It's the same age, but it's not in the nursing home;
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年龄是一样的,但是它不在养老院里
02:58
it's going skiing.
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它看起来在滑雪
03:01
This is what's really cool: it's aging more slowly.
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这就是最酷的地方:它衰老得更慢
03:04
It takes this worm two days
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达到正常线虫衰老一天的程度
03:06
to age as much as the normal worm ages in one day.
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它们需要两天时间
03:08
And when I tell people about this,
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而我告诉其他人这件事的时候
03:10
they tend to think of maybe an 80 or 90 year-old person
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他们认为也许这就像一个八九十岁的人
03:14
who looks really good for being 90 or 80.
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看起来身体仍然硬朗一样
03:16
But it's really more like this:
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但是其实更像这样:
03:18
let's say you're a 30 year-old guy -- or in your 30s --
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如果你是个30岁、30多岁的单身汉
03:21
and you're a bachelor and you're dating people.
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你去和别人约会
03:23
And you meet someone you really like, you get to know her.
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然后你见到了一个中意的女孩,想多了解她
03:26
And you're in a restaurant, and you say, "Well how old are you?"
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在饭桌上,你问她,“你多大了?”
03:29
She says, "I'm 60."
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她说,“我60岁”
03:31
That's what it's like. And you would never know.
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就像这样。你根本不知道
03:33
You would never know, until she told you.
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根本不知道她有多大,要不是她告诉你的话
03:35
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
03:39
Okay.
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好了
03:41
So what is the daf-2 gene?
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那么daf-2基因到底是什么?
03:43
Well as you know, genes, which are part of the DNA,
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正如大家所知,基因是DNA的一部分
03:45
they're instructions to make a protein that does something.
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它们是经编码的指令,用于制造特定功能的蛋白质
03:48
And the daf-2 gene
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而daf-2基因的编码
03:50
encodes a hormone receptor.
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对应了一类激素受体
03:52
So what you see in the picture there
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图片上可以看到的是一个细胞
03:54
is a cell with a hormone receptor in red
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以及红色的激素受体
03:56
punching through the edge of the cell.
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插在细胞的边缘
03:58
So part of it is like a baseball glove.
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受体的一部分就像棒球手套
04:00
Part of it's on the outside,
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外面的部分伸出去
04:02
and it's catching the hormone as it comes by in green.
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当绿色的激素靠近的时候抓住这个激素
04:04
And the other part is on the inside
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另外的部分在细胞内
04:06
where it sends signals into the cell.
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向细胞传递信号
04:08
Okay, so what is the daf-2 receptor
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好了,那daf-2受体向细胞里
04:10
telling the inside of the cell?
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传了什么样的信号?
04:12
I just told you that, if you make a mutation in the daf-2 gene cell,
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我刚刚说过,如果突变细胞里的daf-2基因
04:15
that you get a receptor that doesn't work as well;
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就能得到一个功能不太给力的受体
04:17
the animal lives longer.
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并且动物的寿命变长
04:19
So that means that the normal function of this hormone receptor
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这就意味着这个激素受体的正常功能
04:22
is to speed up aging.
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是加速衰老
04:24
That's what that arrow means.
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就是图上箭头的意思
04:26
It speeds up aging. It makes it go faster.
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总之会让衰老来得更快
04:28
So it's like the animal has the grim reaper inside of itself,
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就好像动物的身体里有个死神
04:30
speeding up aging.
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一直在加速衰老
04:32
So this is altogether really, really interesting.
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总之这个结论就非常有趣了
04:35
It says that aging is subject to control by the genes,
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结论就是,衰老是受基因控制的
04:38
and specifically by hormones.
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具体讲是受激素控制的
04:41
So what kind of hormones are these?
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这些激素又是什么样的激素呢?
04:43
There's lots of hormones. There's testosterone, adrenalin.
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有很多种激素,比如睾酮和肾上腺素
04:45
You know about a lot of them.
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你肯定知道很多
04:47
These hormones are similar
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这些激素和我们
04:49
to hormones that we have in our bodies.
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身体里的激素差不多
04:51
The daf-2 hormone receptor
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daf-2激素受体
04:53
is very similar to the receptor
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与胰岛素和IGF-1的受体
04:55
for the hormone insulin and IGF-1.
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非常像
04:58
Now you've all heard of at least insulin.
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至少大家都听说过胰岛素
05:00
Insulin is a hormone that promotes the uptake of nutrients
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胰岛素是一种激素,在饭后促进
05:03
into your tissues after you eat a meal.
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身体的组织吸收营养
05:05
And the hormone IGF-1 promotes growth.
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而IGF-1这种激素促进生长
05:08
So these functions were known for these hormones for a long time,
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这些激素的功能是我们长久以来就知道的
05:11
but our studies suggested
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但是我们的研究似乎暗示
05:13
that maybe they had a third function that nobody knew about --
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有可能有第三种我们未知的功能--
05:15
maybe they also affect aging.
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或许也能影响衰老
05:17
And it's looking like that's the case.
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而且看起来似乎的确是这样
05:19
So after we made our discoveries with little C. elegans,
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所以在我们对秀丽隐杆线虫的小发现之后
05:22
people who worked on other kinds of animals
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研究其他动物的研究员提出问题
05:24
started asking, if we made the same daf-2 mutation,
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如果在其他动物身上造成同样的daf-2变异
05:27
the hormone receptor mutation, in other animals,
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也就是激素受体变异
05:30
will they live longer?
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它们也会更长寿吗?
05:32
And that is the case in flies.
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在苍蝇身上,是的
05:34
If you change this hormone pathway in flies, they live longer.
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如果改变苍蝇体内这种激素的传递方式,它们就会长寿
05:37
And also in mice -- and mice are mammals like us.
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在老鼠身上也一样--而老鼠是像我们一样的哺乳动物
05:40
So it's an ancient pathway,
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所以其实这是一个古老原始的传递方式
05:42
because it must have arisen a long time ago in evolution
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一定在很久以前的进化进程中就出现了
05:44
such that it still works in all these animals.
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这样才会让所有动物身上都有这样的效应
05:47
And also, the common precursor also gave rise to people.
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而且,这些共同的实验前兆也引向到人类的衰老问题上
05:50
So maybe it's working in people the same way.
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所以或许在人类中也同样适用
05:52
And there are hints of this.
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确实有迹象表明这点
05:54
So for example, there was one study that was done
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比如,曾有人针对纽约市
05:56
in a population of Ashkenazi Jews in New York City.
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阿什肯纳兹犹太人做了研究
05:59
And just like any population,
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和其他人群一样
06:01
most of the people live to be about 70 or 80,
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大多数人活到70或80岁
06:04
but some live to be 90 or 100.
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但是有的人活到了90或100岁
06:06
And what they found
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研究人员发现
06:08
was that people who lived to 90 or 100
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活到90或100岁的人
06:11
were more likely to have daf-2 mutations --
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更有可能有daf-2变异--
06:14
that is, changes in the gene
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也就是说,编码了IGF-1受体
06:16
that encodes the receptor for IGF-1.
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的那段基因产生了变异
06:18
And these changes made the gene not act as well
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这些变异让基因行为与正常基因相比
06:23
as the normal gene would have acted.
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效果更弱一些
06:25
It damaged the gene.
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相当于基因受损了
06:27
So those are hints
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所以这些迹象
06:29
suggesting that humans are susceptible
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表明人类对于控制衰老的激素
06:31
to the effects of the hormones for aging.
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所带来的效果是很敏感的
06:33
So the next question, of course, is:
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所以接下来的问题当然就是
06:35
Is there any effect on age-related disease?
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这对与年龄相关的老龄病有影响吗?
06:38
As you age, you're much more likely
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因为当年龄变老的时候,我们就更可能
06:40
to get cancer, Alzheimer's disease,
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患上癌症,老年痴呆症
06:42
heart disease, all sorts of diseases.
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心脏病,等等一系列的疾病
06:44
It turns out that these long-lived mutants
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结果这些长寿的变异体
06:46
are more resistant to all these diseases.
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对于这些疾病更有抵抗能力
06:48
They hardly get cancer,
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他们几乎不得癌症
06:50
and when they do it's not as severe.
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就算得了,也并不如本来应该的那样严重
06:52
So it's really interesting, and it makes sense in a way,
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所以这很有趣,而且这样想来确实有道理
06:54
that they're still young,
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他们的身体还年轻
06:56
so why would they be getting diseases of aging until their old?
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所以为什么只有到老年,他们会得衰老的一些疾病
07:00
So it suggests
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这就启发我们
07:02
that, if we could have a therapeutic or a pill to take
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如果有疗法或者药片
07:05
to replicate some of these effects in humans,
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来对人体复制这些减缓衰老的效应
07:07
maybe we would have a way
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也许我们就有办法
07:09
of combating lots of different age-related diseases
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一下子抵抗所有种类的
07:11
all at once.
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老龄病
07:13
So how can a hormone ultimately affect the rate of aging?
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那么,激素到底是怎样影响衰老的速度呢?
07:15
How could that work?
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原理是什么呢?
07:17
Well it turns out that in the daf-2 mutants,
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原来在daf-2变异体中
07:20
a whole lot of genes are switched on in the DNA
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有大量的基因被转变到DNA里面
07:23
that encode proteins that protect the cells and the tissues,
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蛋白质编码保护细胞和组织
07:26
and repair damage.
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和修复损坏基因的功能
07:28
And the way that they're switched on
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同时基因被转变的途径
07:31
is by a gene regulator protein called FOXO.
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是被一个基因调节器的蛋白质叫FOXO
07:34
So in a daf-2 mutant --
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所以在daf 2 的变异体中
07:36
you see that I have the X drawn here through the receptor.
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你可以看到这个X 型绘制图的受体
07:38
The receptor isn't working as well.
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这个受体也运转得不怎么好
07:40
Under those conditions, the FOXO protein in blue
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在这些条件下,蓝颜色的FOXO蛋白质
07:43
has gone into the nucleus --
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已经转移到核心里面了
07:45
that little compartment there in the middle of the cell --
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这个小小的隔室在细胞的最中间
07:47
and it's sitting down on a gene binding to it.
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同时也坐落在基因的粘合物上
07:49
You see one gene. There are lots of genes actually that bind on FOXO.
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你看到一个基因。这里有大量的基因实际上捆绑在FOXO上
07:51
And it's just sitting on one of them.
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并且坐落在它们其中的一个上面
07:53
So FOXO turns on a lot of genes.
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所以FOXO开启着大量的基因
07:55
And the genes it turns on includes antioxidant genes,
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同时这些基因也开启着抗氧化的基因
07:58
genes I call carrot-giver genes,
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这些基因我称呼它为胡萝卜者基因
08:00
whose protein products
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这些蛋白质产物
08:02
actually help other proteins to function well --
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实际上帮助其他的蛋白质的机能运转顺畅
08:04
to fold correctly and function correctly.
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同时也帮助蛋白质融合和运转准确
08:06
And it can also escort them to the garbage cans of the cell
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同时也给它们护航到细胞中的垃圾场
08:09
and recycle them if they're damaged.
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并且回收被损坏的蛋白质
08:11
DNA repair genes
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DNA修复基因
08:13
are more active in these animals.
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在这些动物身上更活跃
08:15
And the immune system is more active.
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免疫系统也更活跃
08:17
And many of these different genes, we've shown,
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我们展示的许多这些不同基因
08:20
actually contribute to the long lifespan of the daf-2 mutant.
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实际上都作用于daf 2变异体的延长寿命
08:23
So it's really interesting.
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所以这是很有趣的
08:25
These animals have within them
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带有这些基因的动物
08:27
the latent capacity to live much longer than they normally do.
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比起普通的有活得更久的潜力
08:30
They have the ability
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它们有能力
08:32
to protect themselves from many kinds of damage,
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保护自身免于很多的伤害
08:34
which we think makes them live longer.
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我们认为这使得它们活得更长
08:37
So what about the normal worm?
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那关于正常线虫呢
08:39
Well when the daf-2 receptor is active,
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当daf-2受体是活跃的
08:42
then it triggers a series of events
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它引发了一系列
08:44
that prevent FOXO
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来阻止FOXO
08:46
from getting into the nucleus where the DNA is.
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进入到DNA所处的中心
08:49
So it can't turn the genes on.
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所以基因不能激活
08:51
That's how it works. That's why we don't see the long lifespan,
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这就是运作的方式。也就是我们看不到延长寿命的原因
08:53
until we have the daf-2 mutant.
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除非有daf 2变异体
08:55
But what good is this for the worm?
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但对线虫来说有什么好处吗
08:57
Well we think that insulin and IGF-1 hormones
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胰岛素和IGF-1激素
09:00
are hormones that are particularly active
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是特别活跃
09:02
under favorable conditions -- in the good times --
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在有利条件下--好的时机下--
09:04
when food is plentiful and there's not a lot of stress in the environment.
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当食物是充足的,没有很多压力的环境下
09:07
Then they promote the uptake of nutrients.
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然后它们促使营养品的产生
09:09
You can store the food, use it for energy,
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可以储存食物,用它来补能量
09:12
grow, etc.
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成长等
09:14
But what we think is that, under conditions of stress,
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但我们认为在压力条件下
09:17
the levels of these hormones drop --
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这些激素水平会下降
09:19
for example, having limited food supply.
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例如在有限的食物供给时
09:22
And that, we think,
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我们认为那
09:24
is registered by the animal as a danger signal,
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对于动物而言是个危险信号
09:26
a signal that things are not okay
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预示什么不对头
09:28
and that it should roll out its protective capacity.
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它们的保护功能就开启了
09:31
So it activates FOXO, FOXO goes to the DNA,
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所以它激活了FOXO,FOXO进入DNA
09:34
and that triggers the expression of these genes
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引发这些基因显现
09:36
that improves the ability of the cell
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来带动细胞能力
09:38
to protect itself and repair itself.
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从而保护和修复自身
09:40
And that's why we think the animals live longer.
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这是我们认为动物活长久的原因
09:42
So you can think of FOXO
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你可以想象FOXO
09:44
as being like a building superintendent.
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为一个大楼的看门人
09:47
So maybe he's a little bit lazy,
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或许他有点懒
09:49
but he's there, he's taking care of the building.
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但他在那儿掌管着大楼
09:51
But it's deteriorating.
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但这是不好的
09:53
And then suddenly, he learns that there's going to be a hurricane.
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突然,他了解到将有一场飓风
09:56
So he doesn't actually do anything himself.
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所以他自己实际不做任何事
09:58
He gets on the telephone --
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但他打起电话--
10:00
just like FOXO gets on the DNA --
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就像FOXO进入到DNA--
10:02
and he calls up
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他打电话给
10:04
the roofer, the window person,
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修屋顶的人,修窗户的人
10:06
the painter, the floor person.
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油漆工,修地板的人
10:09
And they all come and they fortify the house.
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他们都来了,加固了房屋。
10:11
And then the hurricane comes through,
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然后飓风穿过
10:13
and the house is in much better condition than it would normally have been in.
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房屋比起它原本的要更加稳固
10:15
And not only that, it can also just last longer,
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不但如此,它也可以很久矗立不倒
10:18
even if there isn't a hurricane.
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甚至不是飓风来临
10:20
So that's the concept here
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所以这的概念
10:22
for how we think this life extension ability exists.
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就类似我们认为生命延长力的发生情形
10:26
Now the really cool thing about FOXO
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关于FOXO真正有趣的
10:28
is that there are different forms of it.
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是有不同种的FOXO
10:30
We all have FOXO genes,
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我们大家都有FOXO基因
10:33
but we don't all have exactly the same form of the FOXO gene.
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但我们不是完全拥有同一种FOXO基因
10:36
Just like we all have eyes,
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如同我们都有眼睛
10:38
but some of us have blue eyes and some of us have brown eyes.
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但有些人是蓝色的眼睛,有些是棕色的
10:41
And there are certain forms of the FOXO gene
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我们发现活到90或者100岁人里
10:44
that have found to be more frequently present
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最常有的
10:46
in people who live to be 90 or 100.
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某种FOXO基因
10:48
And that's the case all over the world,
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这是遍布全球的例子
10:50
as you can see from these stars.
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正如大家看到的这些星星
10:52
And each one of these stars represents a population
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每一个星星代表一个人群
10:54
where scientists have asked,
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科学家曾问过
10:56
"Okay, are there differences in the type of FOXO genes
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“好吧,在这些活得非常久人群里
10:58
among people who live a really long time?" and there are.
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FOXO基因有什么不同吗?” 是的
11:01
We don't know the details of how this works,
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我们不知道这起作用的细节
11:03
but we do know then
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但我们知道
11:05
that FOXO genes can impact
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这FOXO基因能影响
11:07
the lifespan of people.
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人们的寿命
11:09
And that means that, maybe if we tweak it a little bit,
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这意味着或许如果我们调试一下基因
11:12
we can increase the health and longevity of people.
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我们可以增加人们的寿命和保健功能
11:16
So this is really exciting to me.
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所以这对我而言很兴奋
11:18
A FOXO is a protein that we found in these little, round worms
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我们在这些小圆形线虫发现的FOXO是种蛋白质
11:20
to affect lifespan,
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它影响寿命
11:22
and here it affects lifespan in people.
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它也影响人们的寿命
11:24
So we've been trying in our lab now
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所以现在我们一直在我们实验室
11:26
to develop drugs
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研发药物
11:28
that will activate this FOXO cell
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它会激活这种FOXO细胞
11:30
using human cells now
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现使用人类细胞
11:32
in order to try and come up with drugs
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为了试药
11:34
that will delay aging and age-related diseases.
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用药来延缓衰老和老龄引发的疾病
11:37
And I'm really optimistic that this is going to work.
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这会行得通,我对此非常乐观
11:40
There are lots of different proteins that are known to affect aging.
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延缓衰老所熟知的有许多不同蛋白质
11:43
And for at least one of them, there is a drug.
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至少它们中的之一就是药物
11:46
There's one called TOR, which is another nutrient sensor,
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有种叫TOR,它是另一种营养传感器
11:48
like the insulin pathway.
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如同胰岛素传递
11:50
And mutations that damage the TOR gene --
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毁坏TOR基因的变异体
11:52
just like the daf-2 mutations --
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如同daf 2变异体--
11:54
extend lifespan in worms
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延长线虫
11:56
and flies and mice.
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苍蝇和老鼠的寿命
11:59
But in this case, there's already a drug called rapamycin
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但在这情况下,已经有种药叫纳巴霉素
12:01
that binds to the TOR protein
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和TOR蛋白质联系在一起
12:03
and inhibits its activity.
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抑制它的活性
12:05
And you can take rapamycin and give it to a mouse --
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你可以拿纳巴霉素,给老鼠试试--
12:08
even when it's pretty old, like age 60 for a human,
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甚至当它非常老,如同60岁的老人
12:10
that old for a mouse --
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那么老的一只老鼠--
12:12
if you give the mouse rapamycin,
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如果给老鼠纳巴霉素
12:14
it will live longer.
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它会活得久点
12:16
Now I don't want you all to go out taking rapamycin.
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现我不想让大家都去吃纳巴霉素
12:18
It is a drug for people,
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它是适应于人类的药
12:20
but the reason is it suppresses the immune system.
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但原因是它会抵制免疫系统
12:23
So people take it to prevent organ transplants from being rejected.
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所以人们吃了它会因排斥而不能器官移植
12:27
So this may not be the perfect drug
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所以这或许不是种完美的药物
12:29
for staying young longer.
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来永葆青春
12:31
But still, here in the year 2011,
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但这还是2011年
12:34
there's a drug that you can give to mice at a pretty old age
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就是这种药,你能把它给非常老的老鼠
12:36
that will extend their lifespan,
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它会延长它们的寿命
12:38
which comes out of this science
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这科学试验
12:40
that's been done in all these different animals.
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已经试用于所有这些不同动物身上
12:42
So I'm really optimistic,
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所以我非常乐观
12:44
and I think it won't be too long, I hope,
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我认为我希望,它会不久
12:46
before this age-old dream begins to come true.
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这个延缓衰老梦想早日实现
12:49
Thank you.
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谢谢
12:51
(Applause)
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(掌声)
13:00
Matt Ridley: Thank you, Cynthia.
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马特·瑞德里:谢谢,辛西娅
13:03
Let me get this straight.
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让我直说
13:05
Although you're looking for a drug
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尽管你在找寻一种药
13:07
that can solve aging
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它能解决
13:09
in old men like me,
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像我一样老人的衰老问题
13:12
what you could do now pretty well in the lab,
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几乎在实验室你能做什么
13:15
if you were allowed ethically,
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如果你在道德上被准许
13:17
is start a human life from scratch
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从人类生命开始
13:20
with altered genes that would make it live for a lot longer?
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改变基因就能使得人们生命更长久吗
13:23
CK: Ah, so the kinds of drugs I was talking about
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辛西娅·肯尼娅:我刚在讲这些药
13:26
would not change the genes,
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不是改变基因
13:28
they would just bind to the protein itself
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它们只会联系到蛋白质本身
13:31
and change its activity.
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改变它的活性
13:33
So if you stop taking the drug, the protein would go back to normal.
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所以如果你停止服药,蛋白质会返回到平常
13:36
You could change the genes in principle.
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原则上你可以改变基因
13:39
There isn't the technology to do that.
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还没有科技这样做
13:41
But I don't think that's a good idea.
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但我也认为这不是个好主意
13:43
And the reason is
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理由是
13:45
that these hormones,
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这些激素
13:47
like the insulin and the IGF hormones and the TOR pathway,
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就像胰岛素和IGF-1激素和TOR传递
13:50
they're essential.
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它们是最基本的
13:52
If you knock them out completely, then you're very sick.
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假若你完全没有它们,随后你就病得很重
13:55
So it might be that you would just have to fine tune it very carefully
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所以可能只会非常小心地调试它们
13:58
to get the benefits without getting any problems.
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在没有什么意外情况下使它们起作用
14:01
And I think that's much better,
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我想这会更好
14:03
that kind of control would be much better as a drug.
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这种调试就像用药一样会更好
14:05
And also, there are other ways of activating FOXO
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当然,也有其他方法激活FOXO
14:08
that don't even involve insulin or IGF-1
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甚至不需要胰岛素和IGF-1激素
14:10
that might even be safer.
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这甚至会更加安全
14:12
MR: I wasn't suggesting that I was going to go and do it, but ...
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马特·瑞德里:我不是建议我要去试试,但是
14:15
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
14:19
There's a phenomenon which you have written about and spoken about,
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你曾写过和讲过一种现象
14:23
which is a negligible senescence.
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它是一种可忽略的衰老
14:26
There are some creatures on this planet already
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在这星球上已经有些生物
14:28
that don't really do aging.
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它们不会衰老
14:31
Just move to one side for us, if you would.
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那让我们从另一面来说,假若可行的话
14:34
CK: There are. There are some animals that don't seem to age.
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辛西娅·肯尼娅:是的,有些动物好像不会衰老
14:37
For example, there are some tortoises called Blanding's turtles.
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例如,有种叫布兰丁的龟
14:41
And they grow to be about this size.
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它们生长到约这种尺寸
14:43
And they've been tagged, and they've been found to be 70 years old.
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它们被标记,我们发现它们是70岁
14:46
And when you look at these 70 year-old turtles,
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当看着这些70岁龟
14:48
you can't tell the difference, just by looking,
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你不能只从相貌看出区别
14:51
between those turtles and 20 year-old turtles.
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在这些70岁龟和20岁龟之间
14:53
And the 70 year-old ones,
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70岁龟
14:55
actually they're better at scouting out the good nesting places,
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事实上能更好地探出安巢的好地方
14:58
and they also have more progeny every year.
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它们每年也有更多的后代
15:01
And there are other examples of these kinds of animals,
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还有其它这种动物
15:04
like turns, certain kinds of birds are like this.
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像是某种鸟类就好比这个
15:07
And nobody knows if they really can live forever,
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没人知道它们真的能永世活着
15:09
or what keeps them from aging.
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或者是什么使得它们不衰老
15:11
It's not clear.
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这都不清楚
15:13
If you look at birds, which live a long time,
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如果你看看鸟类,那些活很长的
15:16
cells from the birds tend to be more resistant
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这些鸟的细胞趋于更能抵制
15:19
to a lot of different environmental stresses
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许多不同种的环境压力
15:21
like high temperature
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比如高温
15:23
or hydrogen peroxide, things like that.
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或过氧化氢,像这类似的
15:25
And our long-lived mutants are too.
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我们长寿变异体也是如此
15:27
They're more resistant to these kinds of stresses.
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它们更能抵制这些压力
15:29
So it could be that the pathways that I've been talking about,
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所以这可能是我所说的传递
15:32
which are set to run really quickly in the worm,
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它在线虫身上设定和运转得非常快
15:35
have a different normal set point
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有一个不同标准设定点
15:38
in something like a bird, so that a bird can live a lot longer.
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如同鸟身上的那种,以至于鸟类能活很久
15:41
And maybe they're even set really differently
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或许它们甚至在动物中设定得非常不同
15:43
in animals with no senescence at all -- but we don't know.
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一点都没有衰老--但我们不得而知
15:46
MR: But what you're talking about here
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马特·瑞德里:但你这儿所谈到的
15:48
is not extending human lifespan
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不是通过预防死亡
15:51
by preventing death,
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来延长人类寿命
15:53
so much as extending human youthspan.
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如同延长人类青春期一样
15:55
CK: Yes, that's right.
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辛西娅·肯尼娅:是的,是这样
15:57
It's more like, say, if you were a dog.
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这更像是,如果比作狗
15:59
You notice that you're getting old, and you look at your human
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你发觉你在变老,你看看人类
16:01
and you think, "Why isn't this human getting old?"
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你想,“为什么这人不变老?”
16:03
They're not getting old in the dog's lifespan.
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在狗的一生,人们没有变老
16:05
It's more like that.
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这更像这种情况
16:07
But now we're the human looking out and imagining a different human.
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但现在我们是人类看着和想象着一个不同的人
16:11
MR: Thank you very much indeed, Cynthia Kenyon.
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马特·瑞德里:的确十分感谢,辛西娅·肯尼娅
16:14
(Applause)
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(掌声)
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