Cynthia Kenyon: Experiments that hint of longer lives

95,361 views ・ 2011-11-17

TED


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譯者: Michelle Fan 審譯者: Shelley Krishna Tsang
00:15
Have you ever wanted to stay young a little longer
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在座諸位是否曾想過要延長自己的青春
00:18
and put off aging?
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延緩衰老?
00:20
This is a dream of the ages.
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這是長久以來的夢想
00:23
But scientists have for a long time
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但科學家長期以來
00:25
thought this just was never going to be possible.
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都認為這個夢想永遠都不會實現
00:27
They thought you just wear out, there's nothing you can do about it --
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人一定都會老嘛 這是無法改變的事情
00:30
kind of like an old shoe.
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就像一隻舊鞋
00:32
But if you look in nature,
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但如果你觀察大自然
00:34
you see that different kinds of animals
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會發現不同的動物
00:36
can have really different lifespans.
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壽命長短大不相同
00:38
Now these animals are different from one another,
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這些動物之所以不同
00:40
because they have different genes.
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是因為牠們的基因不同
00:42
So that suggests
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可想而知
00:44
that somewhere in these genes, somewhere in the DNA,
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在這些基因的某處 DNA的某處
00:46
are genes for aging,
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存在著導致衰老的基因
00:48
genes that allow them to have different lifespans.
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讓不同的動物有不同的壽命
00:50
So if there are genes like that,
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如果這些基因真的存在
00:52
then you can imagine that,
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想像一下
00:54
if you could change one of the genes in an experiment,
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如果你在實驗中改變其中一個基因
00:56
an aging gene,
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一個導致衰老的基因
00:58
maybe you could slow down aging and extend lifespan.
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就有可能延緩衰老 延長壽命
01:01
And if you could do that, then you could find the genes for aging.
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如果你能這麼做 就可以找到導致衰老的基因
01:04
And if they exist and you can find them,
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如果真有這種基因而且又被你找到
01:06
then maybe one could eventually do something about it.
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也許我們就可以藉此大有一番作為
01:09
So we've set out to look for genes that control aging.
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因此我們準備尋找可以控制衰老的基因
01:12
And we didn't study any of these animals.
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我們沒有研究其它動物
01:15
Instead, we studied a little, tiny, round worm called C. elegans,
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反而研究了又細又小 身體圓圓的秀麗線蟲
01:18
which is just about the size of a comma in a sentence.
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牠的尺寸大約只有句子裡的逗點那麼大
01:21
And we were really optimistic that we could find something
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我們非常樂觀地認為可以有新發現
01:24
because there had been a report of a long-lived mutant.
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因為已經有一篇報告紀錄了長壽的突變體
01:27
So we started to change genes at random,
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我們開始隨意地改變基因
01:29
looking for long-lived animals.
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尋找長壽的動物
01:31
And we were very lucky to find
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而且非常幸運地發現
01:33
that mutations that damage one single gene called daf-2
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如果一個名叫daf-2的基因在突變時被破壞
01:37
doubled the lifespan of the little worm.
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小蟲的壽命就可以延長一倍
01:40
So you can see in black, after a month --
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請各位看黑線 一個月後─
01:42
they're very short-lived; that's why we like to study them
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這種蟲的壽命很短 所以適合拿來做研究
01:44
for studies of aging --
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研究老化現象─
01:46
in black, after a month, the normal worms are all dead.
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黑線顯示 一個月後 一般的蟲都死了
01:49
But at that time,
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但與此同時
01:51
most of the mutant worms are still alive.
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大部分的突變蟲仍然還活著
01:53
And it isn't until twice as long
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而且會活多一倍的時間
01:55
that they're all dead.
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才死去
01:57
And now I want to show what they actually look like in this movie here.
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現在我想用這支影片 讓各位看看牠們的廬山真面目
02:00
So the first thing you're going to see
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首先你會看見
02:02
is the normal worm
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正常的蟲子
02:04
when it's about college student age -- a young adult.
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相當於大學生的年紀 剛成年的年輕人
02:07
It's quite a cute little fellow.
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牠還蠻可愛的吧
02:10
And next you're going to see the long-lived mutant when it's young.
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然後是年輕時期的長壽突變蟲
02:13
So this animal is going to live twice as long.
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這種蟲的壽命多一倍
02:15
Is it miserable? It doesn't seem to be.
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牠會精神不振嗎?沒有喔
02:17
It's active. You can't tell the difference really.
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牠很活潑 其實你看不出差別
02:20
And they can be completely fertile --
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牠們完全有生育能力
02:22
have the same number of progeny as the normal worms do.
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和正常小蟲有相同數量的後代
02:24
Now get out your handkerchiefs here.
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現在把手帕準備好
02:26
You're going to see, in just two weeks,
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你會看到 兩個星期後
02:28
the normal worms are old.
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正常的小蟲變老了
02:30
You can see the little head moving down at the bottom there.
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可以看到頭在下方移動
02:33
But everything else is just lying there.
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但其它的部份都沒有生氣
02:35
The animal's clearly in the nursing home.
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顯然已經住進療養院了
02:37
And if you look at the tissues of the animal, they're starting to deteriorate.
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如果你觀察牠的組織 會發現組織已經開始退化
02:40
You know, even if you've never seen one of these little C. elegans --
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即使你沒看過秀麗線蟲這種小生物
02:42
which probably most of you haven't seen one --
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你們大部分應該都沒看過
02:44
you can tell they're old -- isn't that interesting?
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但還是看得出來牠們老了─很有趣對不對?
02:47
So there's something about aging that's kind of universal.
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所以衰老的某些特徵其實是所有生物共通的
02:50
And now here is the daf-2 mutant.
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看看有daf-2突變的蟲
02:53
One gene is changed out of 20,000, and look at it.
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兩萬個基因中只改變這個基因 你看看
02:55
It's the same age, but it's not in the nursing home;
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同樣的年紀 但沒有住在療養院裡
02:58
it's going skiing.
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牠在滑雪
03:01
This is what's really cool: it's aging more slowly.
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很酷對吧 牠衰老得比較慢
03:04
It takes this worm two days
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這隻蟲要兩天的時間
03:06
to age as much as the normal worm ages in one day.
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來完成一般蠕蟲一天內衰老的程度
03:08
And when I tell people about this,
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當我跟別人說這件事的時候
03:10
they tend to think of maybe an 80 or 90 year-old person
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他們通常想到的是80或90歲的人
03:14
who looks really good for being 90 or 80.
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不過是看起來狀況極佳的90或80歲
03:16
But it's really more like this:
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但其實更準確地講
03:18
let's say you're a 30 year-old guy -- or in your 30s --
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比如說你是30歲的男性 30幾歲
03:21
and you're a bachelor and you're dating people.
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單身貴族 約會不斷
03:23
And you meet someone you really like, you get to know her.
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你遇見你喜歡的對象 想多認識對方
03:26
And you're in a restaurant, and you say, "Well how old are you?"
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所以在餐廳裡 你問她:「你今年幾歲?」
03:29
She says, "I'm 60."
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她說:「我60歲」
03:31
That's what it's like. And you would never know.
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就是這種情況 你根本看不出來
03:33
You would never know, until she told you.
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你絕對不會知道 除非她告訴你
03:35
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
03:39
Okay.
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好吧
03:41
So what is the daf-2 gene?
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daf-2基因到底是什麼呢?
03:43
Well as you know, genes, which are part of the DNA,
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各位應該都知道 基因是DNA的一部分
03:45
they're instructions to make a protein that does something.
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告訴蛋白質應該做什麼
03:48
And the daf-2 gene
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而這個daf-2基因
03:50
encodes a hormone receptor.
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控制荷爾蒙接收器
03:52
So what you see in the picture there
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這張圖片上你可以看到
03:54
is a cell with a hormone receptor in red
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一個細胞 紅色的是荷爾蒙接收器
03:56
punching through the edge of the cell.
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正穿過細胞的邊緣
03:58
So part of it is like a baseball glove.
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它有一部分像棒球手套一樣
04:00
Part of it's on the outside,
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這一部分在外面
04:02
and it's catching the hormone as it comes by in green.
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抓住經過的荷爾蒙 就是綠色的部分
04:04
And the other part is on the inside
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另一部份在裡面
04:06
where it sends signals into the cell.
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向細胞發送信號
04:08
Okay, so what is the daf-2 receptor
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daf-2接收器
04:10
telling the inside of the cell?
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到底在向細胞內部發送什麼信號呢?
04:12
I just told you that, if you make a mutation in the daf-2 gene cell,
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我剛剛說 如果你讓daf-2基因細胞產生突變
04:15
that you get a receptor that doesn't work as well;
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讓接收器失效
04:17
the animal lives longer.
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這隻蟲就可以活比較久
04:19
So that means that the normal function of this hormone receptor
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表示這種荷爾蒙接收器的正常功能
04:22
is to speed up aging.
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就是加速老化
04:24
That's what that arrow means.
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箭頭就是這個意思
04:26
It speeds up aging. It makes it go faster.
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它會加速老化 讓老化更快發生
04:28
So it's like the animal has the grim reaper inside of itself,
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就好像蟲子體內有個死神一樣
04:30
speeding up aging.
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加快老化
04:32
So this is altogether really, really interesting.
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所以這一切非常 非常有趣
04:35
It says that aging is subject to control by the genes,
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表示老化是由基因控制
04:38
and specifically by hormones.
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更精確一點是荷爾蒙
04:41
So what kind of hormones are these?
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那這是哪一類的荷爾蒙呢?
04:43
There's lots of hormones. There's testosterone, adrenalin.
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荷爾蒙有很多種 睪丸激素 腎上腺素
04:45
You know about a lot of them.
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還有很多大家都熟知的
04:47
These hormones are similar
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控制老化的荷爾蒙
04:49
to hormones that we have in our bodies.
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和我們體內的荷爾蒙很相似
04:51
The daf-2 hormone receptor
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daf-2荷爾蒙接收器
04:53
is very similar to the receptor
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跟其它接收器很像
04:55
for the hormone insulin and IGF-1.
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尤其是專門感應胰島素和IGF-1的接收器
04:58
Now you've all heard of at least insulin.
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大家應該至少都聽過胰島素
05:00
Insulin is a hormone that promotes the uptake of nutrients
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這種荷爾蒙是促進養分吸收的
05:03
into your tissues after you eat a meal.
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吃完飯後 身體組織就可以吸收養分
05:05
And the hormone IGF-1 promotes growth.
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IGF-1促進生長
05:08
So these functions were known for these hormones for a long time,
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這些荷爾蒙的功能是大家長久以來耳熟能詳的
05:11
but our studies suggested
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但是我們的研究指出
05:13
that maybe they had a third function that nobody knew about --
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也許還有不為人知道的第三種功能
05:15
maybe they also affect aging.
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會影響老化
05:17
And it's looking like that's the case.
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我們現在面對的似乎就是這種可能性
05:19
So after we made our discoveries with little C. elegans,
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從小線蟲身上有了新發現後
05:22
people who worked on other kinds of animals
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研究其他動物的科學家
05:24
started asking, if we made the same daf-2 mutation,
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開始思考 如果讓相同的daf-2突變
05:27
the hormone receptor mutation, in other animals,
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就是荷爾蒙接收器突變 也在其他動物身上發生
05:30
will they live longer?
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其他動物也會更長壽嗎?
05:32
And that is the case in flies.
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蒼蠅的確如此
05:34
If you change this hormone pathway in flies, they live longer.
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如果改變荷爾蒙接收的路徑 蒼蠅可以活更久
05:37
And also in mice -- and mice are mammals like us.
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老鼠也是 而老鼠跟人一樣是哺乳類
05:40
So it's an ancient pathway,
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所以接收路徑想必十分古老
05:42
because it must have arisen a long time ago in evolution
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因為一定是在演化早期就發展出來的機制
05:44
such that it still works in all these animals.
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才會在所有動物身上都有效
05:47
And also, the common precursor also gave rise to people.
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同樣地 人類也是由相同的祖先演化而來
05:50
So maybe it's working in people the same way.
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所以也許對人類也有效
05:52
And there are hints of this.
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我們也的確看到這種跡象
05:54
So for example, there was one study that was done
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例如 某項研究的對象
05:56
in a population of Ashkenazi Jews in New York City.
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是紐約市的阿胥肯納吉猶太人族群
05:59
And just like any population,
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就跟其他人口族群一樣
06:01
most of the people live to be about 70 or 80,
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大部分人可以活到70或80歲
06:04
but some live to be 90 or 100.
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但有些可以活到90或100歲
06:06
And what they found
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學者發現
06:08
was that people who lived to 90 or 100
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那些活到90或100歲的人
06:11
were more likely to have daf-2 mutations --
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比較可能有daf-2的突變
06:14
that is, changes in the gene
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就是說 基因發生改變
06:16
that encodes the receptor for IGF-1.
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造成接收IGF-1的不同
06:18
And these changes made the gene not act as well
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這些改變使基因不產生作用
06:23
as the normal gene would have acted.
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不像一般正常的基因
06:25
It damaged the gene.
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它們破壞了基因
06:27
So those are hints
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這些暗示
06:29
suggesting that humans are susceptible
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表示人類也可能受到影響
06:31
to the effects of the hormones for aging.
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控制老化的荷爾蒙對人類也有效
06:33
So the next question, of course, is:
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因此更進一步的問題 當然就是
06:35
Is there any effect on age-related disease?
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它對於與年齡相關的疾病有沒有效用?
06:38
As you age, you're much more likely
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當我們逐漸老化 會更有可能得到
06:40
to get cancer, Alzheimer's disease,
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癌症 阿茲海默症
06:42
heart disease, all sorts of diseases.
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心臟疾病 或其他各種疾病
06:44
It turns out that these long-lived mutants
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我們發現長壽的突變種
06:46
are more resistant to all these diseases.
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更有能力對抗這些疾病
06:48
They hardly get cancer,
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牠們很少得癌症
06:50
and when they do it's not as severe.
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即使得了也比較不嚴重
06:52
So it's really interesting, and it makes sense in a way,
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這是很有趣的現象 其實也很有道理
06:54
that they're still young,
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因為牠們還很年輕
06:56
so why would they be getting diseases of aging until their old?
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所以當然不會有各種老化的病症
07:00
So it suggests
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這也表示
07:02
that, if we could have a therapeutic or a pill to take
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如果有某種療法或藥物
07:05
to replicate some of these effects in humans,
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可以複製這些效果到人體上
07:07
maybe we would have a way
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也許就有辦法
07:09
of combating lots of different age-related diseases
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對抗許多與年齡有關的各種疾病
07:11
all at once.
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一勞永逸
07:13
So how can a hormone ultimately affect the rate of aging?
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那麼 荷爾蒙到底怎麼影響老化的速度呢?
07:15
How could that work?
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它是如何運作的?
07:17
Well it turns out that in the daf-2 mutants,
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我們發現在daf-2突變種生物中
07:20
a whole lot of genes are switched on in the DNA
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某個DNA上的許多基因都在運作
07:23
that encode proteins that protect the cells and the tissues,
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這個DNA負責控制蛋白質 保護細胞和組織
07:26
and repair damage.
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修復損傷
07:28
And the way that they're switched on
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這些基因的運作
07:31
is by a gene regulator protein called FOXO.
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是由控制基因的蛋白質FOXO掌管
07:34
So in a daf-2 mutant --
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因此在daf-2突變種中─
07:36
you see that I have the X drawn here through the receptor.
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這裡可以看到接收器上面打了個叉
07:38
The receptor isn't working as well.
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接收器沒有作用
07:40
Under those conditions, the FOXO protein in blue
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在這種環境中 FOXO蛋白質 就是藍色的部分
07:43
has gone into the nucleus --
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進入了細胞核
07:45
that little compartment there in the middle of the cell --
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就是細胞中心的小空間
07:47
and it's sitting down on a gene binding to it.
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它留在這裡 帶著一個基因
07:49
You see one gene. There are lots of genes actually that bind on FOXO.
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你只看到一個 其實FOXO上帶著很多基因
07:51
And it's just sitting on one of them.
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它只留了一個
07:53
So FOXO turns on a lot of genes.
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FOXO啟動許多基因的功能
07:55
And the genes it turns on includes antioxidant genes,
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包括抗氧化的基因
07:58
genes I call carrot-giver genes,
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還有我稱為「成人之美」的基因
08:00
whose protein products
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它的蛋白質產出物
08:02
actually help other proteins to function well --
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可以幫助其他蛋白質維持良好運作
08:04
to fold correctly and function correctly.
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正確疊合 正常運作
08:06
And it can also escort them to the garbage cans of the cell
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還可以確保其他蛋白質廢棄後在細胞中被處理掉
08:09
and recycle them if they're damaged.
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或在蛋白質受損時進行回收
08:11
DNA repair genes
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修復DNA的基因
08:13
are more active in these animals.
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在這些動物體內比較活躍
08:15
And the immune system is more active.
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免疫系統也比較活躍
08:17
And many of these different genes, we've shown,
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許多這些不同的基因 已經證實
08:20
actually contribute to the long lifespan of the daf-2 mutant.
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確實造成daf-2變種生物較長的壽命
08:23
So it's really interesting.
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這是非常有趣的發現
08:25
These animals have within them
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這些動物體內
08:27
the latent capacity to live much longer than they normally do.
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潛藏著可以活更久的能力
08:30
They have the ability
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牠們有能力
08:32
to protect themselves from many kinds of damage,
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保護自己免於各種傷害
08:34
which we think makes them live longer.
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我們認為這是牠們長壽的原因
08:37
So what about the normal worm?
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那一般正常的蟲子呢?
08:39
Well when the daf-2 receptor is active,
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當daf-2接收器啟動時
08:42
then it triggers a series of events
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會觸發一連串反應
08:44
that prevent FOXO
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防止FOXO
08:46
from getting into the nucleus where the DNA is.
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進入細胞核 也就是DNA所在的位置
08:49
So it can't turn the genes on.
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因此基因不會被啟動
08:51
That's how it works. That's why we don't see the long lifespan,
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這就是它運作的方法 也因此如果要長壽
08:53
until we have the daf-2 mutant.
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一定要有daf-2的變異
08:55
But what good is this for the worm?
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但這對蟲子有什麼好處?
08:57
Well we think that insulin and IGF-1 hormones
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如果我們回頭看看胰島素和IGF-1激素
09:00
are hormones that are particularly active
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這兩種特別活躍的荷爾蒙
09:02
under favorable conditions -- in the good times --
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在有利的條件下 良好的情況中
09:04
when food is plentiful and there's not a lot of stress in the environment.
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如果食物充足 環境中又沒有太大的壓力時
09:07
Then they promote the uptake of nutrients.
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它們會促進養分的吸收
09:09
You can store the food, use it for energy,
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儲存食物 轉換成能量
09:12
grow, etc.
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幫助生長 等等
09:14
But what we think is that, under conditions of stress,
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但我們考慮的是 如果受到壓力影響
09:17
the levels of these hormones drop --
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荷爾蒙濃度下降
09:19
for example, having limited food supply.
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例如 食物來源不足
09:22
And that, we think,
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這種情形 我們認為
09:24
is registered by the animal as a danger signal,
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動物本能地就會將之視為警訊
09:26
a signal that things are not okay
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提醒牠們情況不對勁
09:28
and that it should roll out its protective capacity.
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牠應該施展自我保護的能力
09:31
So it activates FOXO, FOXO goes to the DNA,
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因此FOXO開始運作 對DNA產生作用
09:34
and that triggers the expression of these genes
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觸發這些基因表現
09:36
that improves the ability of the cell
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改善細胞能力
09:38
to protect itself and repair itself.
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更能自我保護與修復
09:40
And that's why we think the animals live longer.
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我們認為 動物因此能活更久
09:42
So you can think of FOXO
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所以 你可以把FOXO
09:44
as being like a building superintendent.
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當成大樓的管理員
09:47
So maybe he's a little bit lazy,
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也許這位管理員有點懶惰
09:49
but he's there, he's taking care of the building.
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不過他人在大樓裡 有在管事
09:51
But it's deteriorating.
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大樓慢慢老舊
09:53
And then suddenly, he learns that there's going to be a hurricane.
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然後突然 管理員得知有颶風要來
09:56
So he doesn't actually do anything himself.
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他自己實際上什麼都不做
09:58
He gets on the telephone --
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而是拿起電話
10:00
just like FOXO gets on the DNA --
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就像FOXO刺激DNA一樣
10:02
and he calls up
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然後打電話
10:04
the roofer, the window person,
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叫修屋頂 修窗戶的工人
10:06
the painter, the floor person.
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油漆工 地板工
10:09
And they all come and they fortify the house.
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通通都過來 強化大樓
10:11
And then the hurricane comes through,
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之後颶風過境
10:13
and the house is in much better condition than it would normally have been in.
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不過大樓的狀況比平時改善許多
10:15
And not only that, it can also just last longer,
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不只如此 它還可以維持更久
10:18
even if there isn't a hurricane.
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有沒有颶風都一樣
10:20
So that's the concept here
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我要說明的概念就是如此
10:22
for how we think this life extension ability exists.
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所謂延長壽命的能力就是這樣
10:26
Now the really cool thing about FOXO
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FOXO了不起的地方
10:28
is that there are different forms of it.
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是它有各種不同的型態
10:30
We all have FOXO genes,
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我們都有FOXO的基因
10:33
but we don't all have exactly the same form of the FOXO gene.
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但是型態並不完全一樣
10:36
Just like we all have eyes,
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就像我們都有眼睛
10:38
but some of us have blue eyes and some of us have brown eyes.
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但有些人的眼睛是藍色的 有些人的眼睛是棕色的
10:41
And there are certain forms of the FOXO gene
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某些形態的FOXO基因
10:44
that have found to be more frequently present
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我們發現 它們最常出現的地方
10:46
in people who live to be 90 or 100.
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是在90或100歲人瑞的體內
10:48
And that's the case all over the world,
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這種狀況 全世界都一樣
10:50
as you can see from these stars.
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這張圖上的星星就足以說明
10:52
And each one of these stars represents a population
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每一顆星代表一個人口族群
10:54
where scientists have asked,
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科學家在這些地方研究:
10:56
"Okay, are there differences in the type of FOXO genes
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「這裡的FOXO基因
10:58
among people who live a really long time?" and there are.
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在長壽人口體內是否都不同?」的確如此
11:01
We don't know the details of how this works,
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我們不清楚這一切運作的細節
11:03
but we do know then
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但我們知道
11:05
that FOXO genes can impact
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FOXO基因可以影響
11:07
the lifespan of people.
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人類的壽命
11:09
And that means that, maybe if we tweak it a little bit,
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這就表示 如果我們善加利用這一點
11:12
we can increase the health and longevity of people.
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就可以改善人類的健康 增加壽命
11:16
So this is really exciting to me.
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這一點讓我非常興奮
11:18
A FOXO is a protein that we found in these little, round worms
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FOXO這種蛋白質 在圓形小蟲子體內找到的
11:20
to affect lifespan,
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會影響壽命
11:22
and here it affects lifespan in people.
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也可以影響人類的壽命
11:24
So we've been trying in our lab now
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所以我們現在在實驗室
11:26
to develop drugs
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試著研發藥物
11:28
that will activate this FOXO cell
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可以刺激FOXO
11:30
using human cells now
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改用人類細胞
11:32
in order to try and come up with drugs
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才能進一步研發藥品
11:34
that will delay aging and age-related diseases.
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延緩老化 和與年齡相關的疾病
11:37
And I'm really optimistic that this is going to work.
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我對於此事能否成功相當樂觀
11:40
There are lots of different proteins that are known to affect aging.
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現在已知有許多不同的蛋白質都會影響老化
11:43
And for at least one of them, there is a drug.
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至少對其中一種 可以用藥物控制
11:46
There's one called TOR, which is another nutrient sensor,
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這種蛋白質叫TOR 也是一種感應養分的蛋白質
11:48
like the insulin pathway.
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類似胰島素路徑
11:50
And mutations that damage the TOR gene --
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如果TOR基因被突變破壞
11:52
just like the daf-2 mutations --
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就會跟daf-2突變體一樣
11:54
extend lifespan in worms
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可以延長蟲子的壽命
11:56
and flies and mice.
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對蒼蠅和老鼠也都有效
11:59
But in this case, there's already a drug called rapamycin
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但是在這種情況 已經有一種叫rapamycin的免疫抑制劑
12:01
that binds to the TOR protein
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會附著在TOR蛋白質上
12:03
and inhibits its activity.
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抑制它的活動
12:05
And you can take rapamycin and give it to a mouse --
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如果你讓老鼠服用這種免疫抑制劑
12:08
even when it's pretty old, like age 60 for a human,
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即使老鼠已經很老 像個60歲的人
12:10
that old for a mouse --
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即使這種年齡的老鼠
12:12
if you give the mouse rapamycin,
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如果服用免疫抑制劑
12:14
it will live longer.
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也會活更久
12:16
Now I don't want you all to go out taking rapamycin.
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不過我並不是叫你們趕快去服用rapamycin
12:18
It is a drug for people,
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它的確是人類使用的藥物
12:20
but the reason is it suppresses the immune system.
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但是它會抑制免疫系統
12:23
So people take it to prevent organ transplants from being rejected.
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因此用來避免接受器官移植的病人產生排斥現象
12:27
So this may not be the perfect drug
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因此它不是靈丹妙藥
12:29
for staying young longer.
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不是青春長駐的最佳選擇
12:31
But still, here in the year 2011,
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但是 現在是2011年
12:34
there's a drug that you can give to mice at a pretty old age
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的確有一種藥 如果給年事已高的老鼠服用
12:36
that will extend their lifespan,
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可以延長牠們的壽命
12:38
which comes out of this science
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在研究中也證實
12:40
that's been done in all these different animals.
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對其他各種不同的動物也有效
12:42
So I'm really optimistic,
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因此我相當樂觀
12:44
and I think it won't be too long, I hope,
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也認為我們的夢想已經近在咫尺
12:46
before this age-old dream begins to come true.
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長久以來青春長在的夢想即將成真
12:49
Thank you.
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謝謝各位
12:51
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
13:00
Matt Ridley: Thank you, Cynthia.
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麥特‧雷德利:謝謝妳 辛西亞
13:03
Let me get this straight.
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讓我澄清一下情況
13:05
Although you're looking for a drug
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你在尋找的這種藥
13:07
that can solve aging
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可以解決老化的問題
13:09
in old men like me,
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對我種老頭子也有效
13:12
what you could do now pretty well in the lab,
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現在你在實驗室中已經可以做到
13:15
if you were allowed ethically,
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當然在不違背道德的前提下
13:17
is start a human life from scratch
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無中生有創造一個人
13:20
with altered genes that would make it live for a lot longer?
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並擁有改變過的基因 讓它可以活更久嗎?
13:23
CK: Ah, so the kinds of drugs I was talking about
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辛西亞:我剛剛說明的那種藥
13:26
would not change the genes,
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不會改變基因
13:28
they would just bind to the protein itself
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只會附著在蛋白質上
13:31
and change its activity.
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改變其功能
13:33
So if you stop taking the drug, the protein would go back to normal.
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所以如果你停止服藥 蛋白質就會恢復成正常的狀態
13:36
You could change the genes in principle.
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你也可以從基因上徹底改變
13:39
There isn't the technology to do that.
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不過現在還沒有這種科技
13:41
But I don't think that's a good idea.
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但是我不覺得這是理想的做法
13:43
And the reason is
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因為
13:45
that these hormones,
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這些荷爾蒙
13:47
like the insulin and the IGF hormones and the TOR pathway,
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像是胰島素 IGF 還有TOR路徑
13:50
they're essential.
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是人體不可或缺的
13:52
If you knock them out completely, then you're very sick.
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如果你徹底移除它們 會讓你生重病
13:55
So it might be that you would just have to fine tune it very carefully
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所以還是小心地做細微的調整
13:58
to get the benefits without getting any problems.
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只取其益 免受其害
14:01
And I think that's much better,
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我認為才是比較理想的做法
14:03
that kind of control would be much better as a drug.
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這種控制才是理想的藥物
14:05
And also, there are other ways of activating FOXO
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此外 還有其他方法可以刺激FOXO
14:08
that don't even involve insulin or IGF-1
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完全不涉及胰島素或IGF-1
14:10
that might even be safer.
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是更安全的方法
14:12
MR: I wasn't suggesting that I was going to go and do it, but ...
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麥特:我沒有暗示說我想這麼做 不過...
14:15
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
14:19
There's a phenomenon which you have written about and spoken about,
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有一種現象 你有寫到也有提到
14:23
which is a negligible senescence.
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就是微不足道的老化
14:26
There are some creatures on this planet already
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地球上有一些生物
14:28
that don't really do aging.
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不太會變老
14:31
Just move to one side for us, if you would.
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麻煩靠過來一點 謝謝
14:34
CK: There are. There are some animals that don't seem to age.
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辛西亞:的確 有些動物似乎不會變老
14:37
For example, there are some tortoises called Blanding's turtles.
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例如 有一種陸龜叫流星澤龜
14:41
And they grow to be about this size.
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可以長到這麼大
14:43
And they've been tagged, and they've been found to be 70 years old.
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追蹤的結果 發現牠們可以活到70歲
14:46
And when you look at these 70 year-old turtles,
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當你看著這些70歲的烏龜
14:48
you can't tell the difference, just by looking,
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如果只用看的 根本看不出差別
14:51
between those turtles and 20 year-old turtles.
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牠們跟20歲的烏龜沒有兩樣
14:53
And the 70 year-old ones,
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還有 70歲的烏龜
14:55
actually they're better at scouting out the good nesting places,
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其實更善於找到良好的棲息地點
14:58
and they also have more progeny every year.
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每年也可以產下更多後代
15:01
And there are other examples of these kinds of animals,
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其他還有很多這類動物的例子
15:04
like turns, certain kinds of birds are like this.
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像是燕鷗 或者其他鳥類就像這樣
15:07
And nobody knows if they really can live forever,
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沒有人知道牠們是否可以長生不死
15:09
or what keeps them from aging.
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或為何牠們不會老化
15:11
It's not clear.
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現在還不清楚
15:13
If you look at birds, which live a long time,
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如果你觀察鳥類 長壽的鳥類
15:16
cells from the birds tend to be more resistant
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牠們的細胞通常較具抵抗力
15:19
to a lot of different environmental stresses
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可以應對許多環境壓力
15:21
like high temperature
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例如高溫
15:23
or hydrogen peroxide, things like that.
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或過氧化氫這類的東西
15:25
And our long-lived mutants are too.
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長壽的突變種生物也是這樣
15:27
They're more resistant to these kinds of stresses.
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牠們比較能抵抗這些壓力
15:29
So it could be that the pathways that I've been talking about,
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所以有可能是我剛剛說明的那些路徑
15:32
which are set to run really quickly in the worm,
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在蟲子體內運轉得非常快
15:35
have a different normal set point
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但在不同生物體內速度會不同
15:38
in something like a bird, so that a bird can live a lot longer.
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例如鳥類 因此某隻鳥可以活較久
15:41
And maybe they're even set really differently
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甚至可能這些路徑運轉的速度
15:43
in animals with no senescence at all -- but we don't know.
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在不會老化的動物體內是完全不同的 這一點尚待確認
15:46
MR: But what you're talking about here
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麥特:但是你剛剛說的
15:48
is not extending human lifespan
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不是延長人類的壽命
15:51
by preventing death,
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預防死亡
15:53
so much as extending human youthspan.
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而是延長青春歲月
15:55
CK: Yes, that's right.
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辛西亞:對 就是這樣
15:57
It's more like, say, if you were a dog.
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比較像是 假設你是一隻狗
15:59
You notice that you're getting old, and you look at your human
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注意到自己開始變老了 不過你看看你的主人
16:01
and you think, "Why isn't this human getting old?"
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心裡想:為什麼這個人類不會變老?
16:03
They're not getting old in the dog's lifespan.
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人類不會在狗的有生之年變老
16:05
It's more like that.
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我說的比較像是這種情況
16:07
But now we're the human looking out and imagining a different human.
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但現在我們是以人類的角度 去想像另一種人類
16:11
MR: Thank you very much indeed, Cynthia Kenyon.
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麥特:非常感謝辛西亞‧凱尼恩
16:14
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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