Hendrik Poinar: Bring back the woolly mammoth!

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

Prevoditelj: Martina Valković Recezent: Mislav Ante Omazić - EFZG

When I was a young boy,

Kad sam bio mali dječak,

I used to gaze through the microscope of my father

očevim sam mikroskopom promatrao

at the insects in amber that he kept in the house.

okamenjene kukce u jantaru, koje je on držao u kući.

And they were remarkably well preserved,

I bili su izvanredno dobro očuvani,

morphologically just phenomenal.

morfološki jednostavno izvanredno.

And we used to imagine that someday,

I zamišljali smo da će jednog dana

they would actually come to life

oni zapravo oživjeti

and they would crawl out of the resin,

i da će ispuzati iz smole,

and, if they could, they would fly away.

i, ako budu mogli, odletjeti.

If you had asked me 10 years ago whether or not

Da ste me pred 10 godina pitali

we would ever be able to sequence the genome of extinct animals,

hoćemo li ikada moći sekvencionirati genom izumrlih životinja,

I would have told you, it's unlikely.

rekao bih vam da to nije vjerojatno.

If you had asked whether or not we would actually be able

Da ste me pitali hoćemo li zapravo moći

to revive an extinct species,

oživjeti izumrlu vrstu,

I would have said, pipe dream.

rekao bih da je to maštarija.

But I'm actually standing here today, amazingly,

No, zapravo stojim tu danas, začudo,

to tell you that not only is the sequencing

kako bih vam rekao da senkvencioniranje

of extinct genomes a possibility, actually a modern-day reality,

izumrlih genoma nije samo mogućnost, točnije današnja stvarnost,

but the revival of an extinct species is actually within reach,

već je i oživljavanje izumrlih vrsta zapravo unutar dosega naših mogućnosti,

maybe not from the insects in amber --

možda ne kukaca iz jantara --

in fact, this mosquito was actually used

zapravo, ovaj je komarac korišten

for the inspiration for "Jurassic Park" —

kao inspiracija za "Jurski park" --

but from woolly mammoths, the well preserved remains

ali vunenih mamuta da, iz dobro očuvanih ostataka

of woolly mammoths in the permafrost.

vunenih mamuta u permafrostu.

Woollies are a particularly interesting,

Vuneni mamuti su posebno zanimljivi,

quintessential image of the Ice Age.

kvintesencijalni su lik Ledenog doba.

They were large. They were hairy.

Bili su veliki. Bili su dlakavi.

They had large tusks, and we seem to have

Imali su velike kljove i čini se da smo

a very deep connection with them, like we do with elephants.

imali vrlo duboku povezanost s njima, kao što imamo sa slonovima.

Maybe it's because elephants share

Možda je to zato što su slonovi

many things in common with us.

u mnogim stvarima slični nama.

They bury their dead. They educate the next of kin.

Pokapaju svoje mrtve. Educiraju potomstvo.

They have social knits that are very close.

Održavaju vrlo bliske socijalne veze.

Or maybe it's actually because we're bound by deep time,

Ili je to možda zato što smo povezani milijunima godina,

because elephants, like us, share their origins in Africa

jer slonovi, baš kao i mi, vuku podrijetlo iz Afrike

some seven million years ago,

od prije otprilike sedam milijuna godina,

and as habitats changed and environments changed,

i kako su se mijenjala staništa i okoliš,

we actually, like the elephants, migrated out

mi smo, kao i slonovi, migrirali

into Europe and Asia.

u Europu i Aziju.

So the first large mammoth that appears on the scene

Prvi veliki mamut koji se pojavio je

is meridionalis, which was standing four meters tall

meridionalis, visok oko četiri metara,

weighing about 10 tons, and was a woodland-adapted species

težak oko 10 tona, vrsta prilagođena životu u šumi,

and spread from Western Europe clear across Central Asia,

proširio se iz zapadne Europe kroz središnju Aziju,

across the Bering land bridge

a preko Beringovog prolaza

and into parts of North America.

i u dijelove Sjeverne Amerike.

And then, again, as climate changed as it always does,

I onda, kad se klima promijenila kao i uvijek,

and new habitats opened up,

i pojavila se nova staništa,

we had the arrival of a steppe-adapted species

pojavila se vrsta prilagođena životu u stepama

called trogontherii in Central Asia

zvana trogontherii, u središnjoj Aziji

pushing meridionalis out into Western Europe.

i istisnula je meridionalisa u zapadnu Europu.

And the open grassland savannas of North America

I široki pašnjaci sjevernoameričkih savana

opened up, leading to the Columbian mammoth,

omogućili su pojavu kolumbijskog mamuta,

a large, hairless species in North America.

velike, bezdlake sjevernoameričke vrste.

And it was really only about 500,000 years later

I, zapravo, tek nakon otprilike 500.000 godina

that we had the arrival of the woolly,

pojavio se vuneni mamut,

the one that we all know and love so much,

onaj kojega svi znamo i toliko volimo,

spreading from an East Beringian point of origin

na prostoru od istočne Beringije, odakle je potjekao,

across Central Asia, again pushing the trogontherii

pa širom središnje Azije, ponovno istiskujući trogontherii

out through Central Europe,

kroz središnju Europu,

and over hundreds of thousands of years

i stotinama tisuća godina

migrating back and forth across the Bering land bridge

migrirajući preko Beringovog prolaza i natrag

during times of glacial peaks

za vrijeme vrhunaca ledenih doba

and coming into direct contact

i dolazeći u direktan kontakt

with the Columbian relatives living in the south,

sa svojim kolumbijskim rođacima koji su živjeli na jugu,

and there they survive over hundreds of thousands of years

i tamo oni preživljavaju stotinama tisuća godina

during traumatic climatic shifts.

tijekom traumatičnih klimatskih promjena.

So there's a highly plastic animal dealing with great transitions

Tu imamo iznimno prilagodljivu životinju koja se nosi s golemim promjenama

in temperature and environment, and doing very, very well.

u temperaturi i okolišu i snalazi se jako, jako dobro.

And there they survive on the mainland until about 10,000 years ago,

I tako oni preživljavaju na kopnu do prije otprilike 10.000 godina,

and actually, surprisingly, on the small islands off of Siberia

a, zapravo, začuđujuće, na malenim otocima blizu Sibira

and Alaska until about 3,000 years ago.

i Aljaske do prije otprilike 3.000 godina.

So Egyptians are building pyramids

Znači, Egipćani grade piramide,

and woollies are still living on islands.

a vuneni mamuti i dalje žive na otocima.

And then they disappear.

A onda nestaju.

Like 99 percent of all the animals that have once lived,

Kao i 99 % svih vrsta koje su ikada živjele,

they go extinct, likely due to a warming climate

izumiru, vjerojatno zbog klimatskog zatopljenja

and fast-encroaching dense forests

i gustih šuma

that are migrating north,

koje se brzo šire na sjever i,

and also, as the late, great Paul Martin once put it,

također, kao što je pokojni, veliki Paul Martin jednom rekao,

probably Pleistocene overkill,

zbog izlova u pleistocenu,

so the large game hunters that took them down.

tako da su ih i lovci na veliku divljač istrijebili.

Fortunately, we find millions of their remains

Na sreću, milijune njihovih ostataka nalazimo

strewn across the permafrost buried deep

razasute po permafrostu, zakopane duboko

in Siberia and Alaska, and we can actually go up there

u Sibiru i Aljasci i mi, u stvari, odlazimo tamo

and actually take them out.

i iskapamo ih.

And the preservation is, again,

I očuvanje je, ponovno,

like those insects in [amber], phenomenal.

kao i kod onih kukaca u [jantaru], odlično.

So you have teeth, bones with blood

Tako imamo zube, kosti s krvlju,

which look like blood, you have hair,

koje izgledaju kao krv, imamo dlaku,

and you have intact carcasses or heads

i netaknuta trupla ili glave

which still have brains in them.

koje još uvijek u sebi sadrže mozgove.

So the preservation and the survival of DNA

Očuvanje i preživljavanje DNK

depends on many factors, and I have to admit,

ovisi o mnogo čimbenika i, moram priznati,

most of which we still don't quite understand,

većinu njih i dalje posve ne razumijemo.

but depending upon when an organism dies

No, ovisno o tome kad organizam umre

and how quickly he's buried, the depth of that burial,

i koliko je brzo ukopan, kolika je dubina ukopa,

the constancy of the temperature of that burial environment,

i ujednačenost temperature okoliša u kojem je ukopan,

will ultimately dictate how long DNA will survive

konačno će biti određeno koliko dugo će DNK preživjeti

over geologically meaningful time frames.

kroz geološki značajne vremenske okvire.

And it's probably surprising to many of you

I vjerojatno začuđuje mnoge od vas

sitting in this room that it's not the time that matters,

koji sjedite u ovoj sobi da nije vrijeme ono što je važno,

it's not the length of preservation,

niti duljina očuvanja,

it's the consistency of the temperature of that preservation that matters most.

već je najbitnija ujednačenost temperature tog očuvanja.

So if we were to go deep now within the bones

Znači, ako bi sada promotrili kosti

and the teeth that actually survived the fossilization process,

i zube koji su preživjeli proces fosilizacije,

the DNA which was once intact, tightly wrapped

DNK koji je jednom bio netaknut, čvrsto omotan

around histone proteins, is now under attack

oko proteina histona, sada je pod napadom

by the bacteria that lived symbiotically with the mammoth

bakterija koje su živjele u simbiozi s mamutom

for years during its lifetime.

godinama, za vrijeme njegovog života.

So those bacteria, along with the environmental bacteria,

I te bakterije, kao i bakterije iz okoliša,

free water and oxygen, actually break apart the DNA

oslobađaju vodu i kisik, zapravo, razbijaju DNK

into smaller and smaller and smaller DNA fragments,

na sve manje i manje fragmente DNK,

until all you have are fragments that range

sve dok jedino što imamo nisu samo fragmenti

from 10 base pairs to, in the best case scenarios,

od 10 baznih parova do, u najboljim slučajevima,

a few hundred base pairs in length.

nekoliko stotina baznih parova u duljini.

So most fossils out there in the fossil record

Tako da je najveći broj fosila u evidenciji

are actually completely devoid of all organic signatures.

zapravo potpuno lišen svake organske strukture.

But a few of them actually have DNA fragments

Ali nekoliko njih zapravo imaju DNK fragmente

that survive for thousands,

koji preživljavaju tisućama,

even a few millions of years in time.

čak i milijunima godina.

And using state-of-the-art clean room technology,

I koristeći najnoviju "clean room" tehnologiju

we've devised ways that we can actually pull these DNAs

osmislili smo načine na koje možemo izdvojiti ovaj DNK

away from all the rest of the gunk in there,

od ostalih supstanci,

and it's not surprising to any of you sitting in the room

i nikome od vas nije iznenađujuće

that if I take a mammoth bone or a tooth

da, ukoliko uzmem mamutovu kost ili zub

and I extract its DNA that I'll get mammoth DNA,

i izdvojim njegov DNK, dobijem mamutov DNK,

but I'll also get all the bacteria that once lived with the mammoth,

ali, također dobijem i sve bakterije koje su nekoć živjele s mamutom,

and, more complicated, I'll get all the DNA

i, nešto složenije, dobijem sav DNK

that survived in that environment with it,

koji je preživio u tom okolišu s njim,

so the bacteria, the fungi, and so on and so forth.

dakle, bakterije, gljivice itd.

Not surprising then again that a mammoth

Ponovno, nije iznenađujuće da će mamut

preserved in the permafrost will have something

očuvan u permafrostu imati

on the order of 50 percent of its DNA being mammoth,

približno oko 50% svog DNK,

whereas something like the Columbian mammoth,

dok će nešto poput kolumbijskog mamuta,

living in a temperature and buried in a temperate environment

koji je živio i bio ukopan u umjerenoj klimi

over its laying-in will only have 3 to 10 percent endogenous.

imati samo 3-10 % DNK.

But we've come up with very clever ways

No, dosjetili smo se vrlo pametnih načina

that we can actually discriminate, capture and discriminate,

na koje zapravo možemo razlikovati i izdvojiti

the mammoth from the non-mammoth DNA,

DNK mamuta od drugih DNK,

and with the advances in high-throughput sequencing,

i, s napretkom u sekvencioniranju,

we can actually pull out and bioinformatically

možemo izvaditi i bioinformatički

re-jig all these small mammoth fragments

ponovno složiti sve te male fragmente

and place them onto a backbone

i smjestiti ih u DNK okosnicu

of an Asian or African elephant chromosome.

kromosoma azijskog ili afričkog slona.

And so by doing that, we can actually get all the little points

I tako, čineći to, zapravo možemo dobiti sve točke

that discriminate between a mammoth and an Asian elephant,

diskriminacije između mamuta i azijskog slona,

and what do we know, then, about a mammoth?

i što, onda, znamo o mamutu?

Well, the mammoth genome is almost at full completion,

Pa, mamutski genom je skoro potpuno kompletiran,

and we know that it's actually really big. It's mammoth.

i znamo da je zapravo jako velik. Ipak je to mamut.

So a hominid genome is about three billion base pairs,

Tako se genom hominida sastoji od oko tri milijarde baznih parova,

but an elephant and mammoth genome

no genom slona ili mamuta

is about two billion base pairs larger, and most of that

je za oko dvije milijarde baznih parova veći i većinom

is composed of small, repetitive DNAs

je sastavljen od malih, ponavljajućih dijelova DNK

that make it very difficult to actually re-jig the entire structure of the genome.

zbog čega je zapravo vrlo teško ponovno posložiti čitavu strukturu genoma.

So having this information allows us to answer

Ova informacija nam pruža odgovor

one of the interesting relationship questions

na jedno od najzanimljivijih pitanja o vezi

between mammoths and their living relatives,

između mamuta i njihovih živućih rođaka,

the African and the Asian elephant,

afričkog i azijskog slona,

all of which shared an ancestor seven million years ago,

koji su svi imali zajedničkog pretka prije sedam milijuna godina,

but the genome of the mammoth shows it to share

no genom mamuta pokazuje da on dijeli

a most recent common ancestor with Asian elephants

najbližeg zajedničkog pretka s azijskim slonom, prije

about six million years ago,

oko šest milijuna godina,

so slightly closer to the Asian elephant.

dakle, mamut je nešto srodniji azijskom slonu.

With advances in ancient DNA technology,

S napretkom u DNK tehnologiji,

we can actually now start to begin to sequence

sada možemo započeti sekvencionirati

the genomes of those other extinct mammoth forms that I mentioned,

genome drugih izumrlih vrsta mamuta koje sam spomenuo,

and I just wanted to talk about two of them,

a želim razgovarati samo o dvije vrste,

the woolly and the Columbian mammoth,

vunenom i kolumbijskom mamutu,

both of which were living very close to each other

koji su živjeli vrlo blizu jedan drugome

during glacial peaks,

u vrijeme vrhunaca ledenih doba,

so when the glaciers were massive in North America,

i masivnih glečera u Sjevernoj Americi,

the woollies were pushed into these subglacial ecotones,

te su tad vuneni potisnuti na subglacijalne ekosustave

and came into contact with the relatives living to the south,

i došli su u kontakt sa svojim rođacima koji su živjeli na jugu,

and there they shared refugia,

i tamo su dijelili refugij,

and a little bit more than the refugia, it turns out.

a čini se i malo više od refugija.

It looks like they were interbreeding.

Čini se da su se međusobno razmnožavali.

And that this is not an uncommon feature

Izgleda da to nije rijetka pojava

in Proboscideans, because it turns out

kod surlaša, jer ispada

that large savanna male elephants will outcompete

da će veliki mužjaci slonova iz savane nadvladati

the smaller forest elephants for their females.

manje šumske slonove u borbi za njihove ženke.

So large, hairless Columbians

Tako su veliki, bezdlaki kolumbijski mamuti

outcompeting the smaller male woollies.

nadvladali manje vunene mužjake.

It reminds me a bit of high school, unfortunately.

Nažalost, to me malo podsjeća na srednju školu.

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

So this is not trivial, given the idea that we want

Ovo nije trivijalna činjenica, s obzirom na ideju da

to revive extinct species, because it turns out

oživljavamo izumrle vrste, jer ispada kako

that an African and an Asian elephant

se afrički i azijski slon

can actually interbreed and have live young,

mogu međusobno razmnožavati i imati potomke,

and this has actually occurred by accident in a zoo

i da se ovo, zapravo, slučajno dogodilo

in Chester, U.K., in 1978.

u zoološkom vrtu u Chesteru, VB, 1978. godine.

So that means that we can actually take Asian elephant chromosomes,

To, dakle, znači da možemo uzeti kromosome azijskog slona,

modify them into all those positions we've actually now

modificirati ih u sve one pozicije koje možemo

been able to discriminate with the mammoth genome,

razlikovati od genoma mamuta,

we can put that into an enucleated cell,

staviti to u stanicu kojoj smo uklonili jezgru,

differentiate that into a stem cell,

diferencirati ju u matičnu stanicu,

subsequently differentiate that maybe into a sperm,

potom to možda diferencirati u spermu,

artificially inseminate an Asian elephant egg,

umjetno oploditi jajnu stanicu azijskog slona,

and over a long and arduous procedure,

i, dugom i napornom procedurom,

actually bring back something that looks like this.

vratiti u život nešto što izgleda ovako.

Now, this wouldn't be an exact replica,

No, to ne bi bila identična kopija,

because the short DNA fragments that I told you about

zbog nedostajućih DNK fragmenata o kojima sam govorio

will prevent us from building the exact structure,

koji nas sprječavaju da izgradimo identičnu strukturu

but it would make something that looked and felt

no, imali bi nešto što izgleda

very much like a woolly mammoth did.

prilično slično kao što je izgledao vuneni mamut.

Now, when I bring up this with my friends,

Kada ovo spomenem u društvu prijatelja,

we often talk about, well, where would you put it?

često raspravljamo gdje bi ga, zapravo, smjestili?

Where are you going to house a mammoth?

Gdje bi mogli smjestiti mamuta?

There's no climates or habitats suitable.

Nema odgovarajućih staništa niti podneblja.

Well, that's not actually the case.

No, to zapravo i nije tako.

It turns out that there are swaths of habitat

Ispada da postoje široka podneblja

in the north of Siberia and Yukon

na sjeveru Sibira i Yukona, u koja bi

that actually could house a mammoth.

mogli smjestiti mamuta.

Remember, this was a highly plastic animal

Opet, bila je to vrlo prilagodljiva životinja

that lived over tremendous climate variation.

koja je preživjela ogromne klimatske varijacije.

So this landscape would be easily able to house it,

Tako da bi se lako mogla smjestiti u ovo područje,

and I have to admit that there [is] a part of the child in me,

i moram priznati da postoji dijete u meni,

the boy in me, that would love to see

dječak u meni koji bi volio

these majestic creatures walk across the permafrost

vidjeti ova veličanstvena bića kako hodaju permafrostom

of the north once again, but I do have to admit

sjevera još jednom, no moram priznati

that part of the adult in me sometimes wonders

da se odrasli dio mene ponekad pita

whether or not we should.

bismo li to smjeli učiniti.

Thank you very much.

Hvala vam puno.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Ryan Phelan: Don't go away.

Ryan Phelan: Nemojte otići.

You've left us with a question.

Imamo pitanje za vas.

I'm sure everyone is asking this. When you say, "Should we?"

Sigurna sam da se svi pitamo sljedeće. Kad kažete: "Bismo li smjeli?",

it feels like you're reticent there,

čini se kao da ste suzdržani po tom pitanju,

and yet you've given us a vision of it being so possible.

a ipak ste nam to prezentirali kao nešto vrlo ostvarljivo.

What's your reticence?

Zbog čega vaša suzdržanost?

Hendrik Poinar: I don't think it's reticence.

Ne mislim da je suzdržanost.

I think it's just that we have to think very deeply

Samo mislim da trebamo dobro razmisliti

about the implications, ramifications of our actions,

o posljedicama naših djela,

and so as long as we have good, deep discussion

i sve dok vodimo dobru i kvalitetnu raspravu

like we're having now, I think

poput ove sada, mislim da

we can come to a very good solution as to why to do it.

možemo doći do dobrog zaključka o tome zašto to učiniti.

But I just want to make sure that we spend time

No, samo želim da si prvo uzmemo

thinking about why we're doing it first.

vremena i razmislimo zašto to činimo.

RP: Perfect. Perfect answer. Thank you very much, Hendrik.

RP: Savršeno. Savršen odgovor. Puno vam hvala, Hendrik.

HP: Thank you. (Applause)

HP: Hvala vama. (Pljesak)