Two Nameless Bodies Washed Up on the Beach. Here Are Their Stories | Anders Fjellberg | TED Talks

176,222 views ・ 2015-11-06

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譯者: Gentian Pan 審譯者: Adrienne Lin
00:14
So this right here
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這個地方
00:15
is the tiny village of Elle, close to Lista.
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是個小村落,名為:耶拉。 離利斯塔不遠。
00:19
It's right at the southernmost tip of Norway.
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位於挪威的最南端。
00:23
And on January 2 this year,
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在今年 1 月 2 日,
00:25
an elderly guy who lives in the village,
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一位住在村裡的老人,
00:28
he went out to see what was cast ashore
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到海岸查看有無什麼東西 在最近的暴風中沖上岸。
00:30
during a recent storm.
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00:34
And on a patch of grass right next to the water's edge,
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在海邊的小草地上,
00:37
he found a wetsuit.
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發現了一套潛水裝。
00:39
It was grey and black, and he thought it looked cheap.
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灰黑的潛水裝,覺得看起來廉價。
00:44
Out of each leg of the wetsuit
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但在兩條褲腿處,
00:46
there were sticking two white bones.
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有兩條白骨,
00:50
It was clearly the remains of a human being.
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顯然是人類的遺體。
00:54
And usually, in Norway, dead people are identified quickly.
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在挪威,死者遺體通常 很快能辨識身分,
00:57
So the police started searching
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於是警方開始搜尋
00:58
through missing reports from the local area,
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地方的失蹤人口、
全國的失蹤人口、
01:01
national missing reports,
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01:02
and looked for accidents with a possible connection.
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以及可能關聯的意外事件。
01:04
They found nothing.
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可是什麼也沒找到。
01:06
So they ran a DNA profile,
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於是就進行 DNA 檢測,
01:08
and they started searching internationally through Interpol.
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並與國際刑警組織搜尋資料。
01:11
Nothing.
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也沒有結果。
01:14
This was a person that nobody seemed to be missing.
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這個人似乎不是失蹤人口。
01:18
It was an invisible life heading for a nameless grave.
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是個無形的生命 走向無名的墳墓。
然而,一個月後,
01:24
But then, after a month,
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01:25
the police in Norway got a message from the police in the Netherlands.
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挪威警方收到荷蘭警方的訊息。
兩個月前,他們發現一具遺體
01:30
A couple of months earlier, they had found a body,
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01:32
in an identical wetsuit, and they had no idea who this person was.
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在相同的潛水衣內, 他們也不知道死者是誰。
01:37
But the police in the Netherlands managed to trace the wetsuit
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荷蘭警方透過潛水衣上的 RFID 晶片,追蹤來源。
01:40
by an RFID chip that was sewn in the suit.
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01:44
So they were then able to tell
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他們發現
01:46
that both wetsuits were bought by the same customer at the same time,
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這兩套潛水衣為: 同一人、同時間購買,
01:51
October 7, 2014,
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那天是 2004 年 10 月 7 日,
01:54
in the French city of Calais by the English Channel.
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在英吉利海峽附近的法國加萊市。
01:57
But this was all they were able to figure out.
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他們僅能查到這些。
02:00
The customer paid cash.
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購買者以現金支付。
02:02
There was no surveillance footage from the shop.
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商店沒有監視器的影像。
02:05
So it became a cold case.
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就此成了懸案。
02:07
We heard this story,
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我們聽到這個故事,
02:09
and it triggered me and my colleague, photographer Tomm Christiansen,
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引發了我和同事攝影師 湯姆‧克里斯琴森的興趣。
顯然的疑問是:這兩個人是誰?
02:12
and we of course had the obvious question: who were these people?
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02:15
At the time, I'd barely heard about Calais,
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那時,我對加萊市沒什麼印象,
02:17
but it took about two or three seconds to figure out
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我很快地想一下,
02:20
Calais is basically known for two things.
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加萊市有兩個著名的特色:
02:23
It's the spot in continental Europe closest to Britain,
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是歐洲最接近英國的地點,
02:26
and a lot of migrants and refugees are staying in this camp
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許多移民或難民住在難民營
02:29
and are trying desperately to cross over to Britain.
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且希望能夠橫跨越英國。
02:32
And right there was a plausible theory about the identity of the two people,
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在那裡,有一個關於 辨識這兩人身分的理論,
02:37
and the police made this theory as well.
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警方也有一樣的理論。
02:40
Because if you or I or anybody else with a firm connection to Europe
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因為任何與歐洲有淵源的人
02:43
goes missing off the coast of France, people would just know.
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在法國海岸附近失蹤了,有人會知道。
02:46
Your friends or family would report you missing,
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你的親友會去提報失蹤,
警察會調查,媒體會報導,
02:49
the police would come search for you, the media would know,
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你的照片會貼在燈柱上。
02:51
and there would be pictures of you on lampposts.
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很難失蹤卻無留下線索。
02:54
It's difficult to disappear without a trace.
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02:57
But if you just fled the war in Syria,
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但如果你是敘利亞的難民,
02:59
and your family, if you have any family left,
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如果你還有家人在身邊,
03:02
don't necessarily know where you are,
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家人不見得知道你在哪。
03:04
and you're staying here illegally
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若是你是非法入境者,
03:06
amongst thousands of others who come and go every day.
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住在每天有上萬人來往的地方。
03:09
Well, if you disappear one day, nobody will notice.
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如果你失蹤了,沒人會注意。
03:13
The police won't come search for you because nobody knows you're gone.
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警察不會調查, 因為沒人知道你失蹤。
03:18
And this is what happened to Shadi Omar Kataf
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這發生在來自敘利亞的薩帝
03:20
and Mouaz Al Balkhi from Syria.
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和摩艾茲身上。
03:24
Me and Tomm went to Calais for the first time in April this year,
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我和湯姆在今年 4 月 第一次到加萊市。
03:27
and after three months of investigation, we were able to tell the story
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三個月的調查後,我們可以 講這兩個年輕男子故事。
03:31
about how these two young men fled the war in Syria,
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他們逃離了敘利亞的戰亂,
03:34
ended up stuck in Calais,
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困在加萊市,
03:35
bought wetsuits and drowned in what seems to have been an attempt
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買了潛水裝,似乎在企圖
橫渡英吉利海峽到英國的途中溺死。
03:39
to swim across the English Channel in order to reach England.
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03:43
It is a story about the fact that everybody has a name,
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這個故事是要告訴大家 每個人都有一個名字,
03:46
everybody has a story, everybody is someone.
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每個人都有故事、 都是某個重要的人。
03:49
But it is also a story about what it's like to be a refugee in Europe today.
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但是,這故事也是有關 歐洲難民的現況。
03:55
So this is where we started our search.
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我們從這兒開始搜尋。
03:57
This is in Calais.
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這是加萊市。
03:58
Right now, between 3,500 and 5,000 people are living here
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目前約住了 3500 到 5000 人,
04:01
under horrible conditions.
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居住的環境非常糟糕。
04:03
It has been dubbed the worst refugee camp in Europe.
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是公認歐洲最差的難民營。
04:06
Limited access to food, limited access to water,
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食物和水都很缺乏,
04:09
limited access to health care.
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有限的醫療資源。
04:10
Disease and infections are widespread.
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疾病和感染很普遍。
04:13
And they're all stuck here because they're trying to get to England
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困在這裡,只為了企圖前往英國
申請政治庇護。
04:17
in order to claim asylum.
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04:18
And they do that by hiding in the back of trucks headed for the ferry,
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他們躲在卡車後車斗, 前往渡口或歐洲隧道。
04:22
or the Eurotunnel,
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04:24
or they sneak inside the tunnel terminal at night
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或者深夜潛入隧道火車站內
04:26
to try to hide on the trains.
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然後藏身火車裡。
04:29
Most want to go to Britain because they know the language,
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大部分人去英國是因為會說英語,
04:32
and so they figure it would be easier to restart their lives from there.
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所以覺得在那裡重新生活會更容易。
04:36
They want to work, they want to study,
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他們希望工作,他們希望學習,
04:37
they want to be able to continue their lives.
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他們希望能夠繼續生活。
有許多是高學歷的人和技術工人。
04:40
A lot of these people are highly educated and skilled workers.
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04:42
If you go to Calais and talk to refugees, you'll meet lawyers, politicians,
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如果你去加萊市和難民聊, 你會見到律師、政治家、
04:46
engineers, graphic designers, farmers, soldiers.
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工程師、平面設計師、農人、軍人。
04:49
You've got the whole spectrum.
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各行各業都有。
04:51
But who all of these people are
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但這些人是誰的問題
04:53
usually gets lost in the way we talk about refugees and migrants,
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通常在我們討論難民 和移民時,會被忽略掉,
04:58
because we usually do that in statistics.
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因為我們只看統計數字。
05:01
So you have 60 million refugees globally.
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全球有 6000 萬難民。
05:03
About half a million have made the crossing
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今年約 50 萬難民橫越 地中海來到歐洲,
05:05
over the Mediterranean into Europe so far this year,
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約 4000 人留在加萊市。
05:08
and roughly 4,000 are staying in Calais.
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05:10
But these are numbers,
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這些只是數字,
05:11
and the numbers don't say anything about who these people are,
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數字並不能顯示這些人是誰、
05:15
where they came from, or why they're here.
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從哪裡來,或為何留在這裡。
05:19
And first, I want to tell you about one of them.
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首先,我想談談其中一位。
05:22
This is 22-year-old Mouaz Al Balkhi from Syria.
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這是來自敘利亞,22 歲的摩艾茲。
05:26
We first heard about him after being in Calais the first time
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我們第一次來到加萊市
05:29
looking for answers to the theory of the two dead bodies.
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尋找此二具屍體的答案時, 聽到他的傳聞。
05:31
And after a while, we heard this story
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過不久,我們聽到一位敘利亞男子 住在英國布拉福鎮的故事,
05:34
about a Syrian man who was living in Bradford in England,
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05:37
and had been desperately searching for his nephew Mouaz for months.
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數月來,他拼命在尋找侄子摩艾茲。
05:41
And it turned out the last time anybody had heard anything from Mouaz
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結果,2014 年 10 月 7 日後 摩艾茲就失去下落。
05:45
was October 7, 2014.
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05:47
That was the same date the wetsuits were bought.
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就是摩艾茲購買潛水衣的那一天。
05:51
So we flew over there and we met the uncle
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我們飛到那裡去見他叔叔,
05:53
and we did DNA samples of him,
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我們拿到 DNA 樣本,
05:55
and later on got additional DNA samples from Mouaz's closest relative
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後來,我們也拿到住在約旦, 摩艾茲近親的DNA樣本。
05:58
who now lives in Jordan.
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06:00
The analysis concluded
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分析結論是:
06:02
the body who was found in a wetsuit on a beach in the Netherlands
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荷蘭海灘發現的潛水衣內屍體,
06:06
was actually Mouaz Al Balkhi.
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就是摩艾茲。
06:09
And while we were doing all this investigation,
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當我們調查時,
06:12
we got to know Mouaz's story.
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得知摩艾茲的故事。
06:15
He was born in the Syrian capital of Damascus in 1991.
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1991 年, 他出生於 敘利亞首都大馬士革。
06:19
He was raised in a middle class family,
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成長於中產階級家庭,
06:21
and his father in the middle there is a chemical engineer
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相片中間是他的父親, 是化學工程師。
06:23
who spent 11 years in prison for belonging to the political opposition in Syria.
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因為屬於敘利亞政治反對派 而被監禁了 11 年。
06:28
While his father was in prison,
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在父親被監禁期間,
06:29
Mouaz took responsibility and he cared for his three sisters.
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摩艾茲扛起照顧三姐妹的重擔。
06:33
They said he was that kind of guy.
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據說他就是那種負責的人。
06:35
Mouaz studied to become an electrical engineer
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摩艾茲就讀電機工程系,
06:37
at the University of Damascus.
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就學於大馬士革大學。
06:40
So a couple of years into the Syrian war,
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敘利亞陷入內戰數年,
06:42
the family fled Damascus and went to the neighboring country, Jordan.
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全家逃離大馬士革,前往鄰國約旦。
06:46
Their father had problems finding work in Jordan,
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父親在約旦找不到工作,
06:49
and Mouaz could not continue his studies,
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所以,摩艾茲無法完成學業,
06:51
so he figured, "OK, the best thing I can do to help my family
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他想:「好,能幫助家裡的最佳選擇是
06:54
would be to go somewhere where I can finish my studies
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去一個可以同時完成學業 和工作的地方。」
06:57
and find work."
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06:58
So he goes to Turkey.
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所以他去土耳其。
07:00
In Turkey, he's not accepted at a university,
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在土耳其,他沒取得入學許可,
07:03
and once he had left Jordan as a refugee, he was not allowed to reenter.
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一旦以難民身分離開約旦, 他就無法再回去。
07:08
So then he decides to head for the UK,
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所以,他決定去英國,
07:10
where his uncle lives.
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找他的叔叔。
07:12
He makes it into Algeria, walks into Libya,
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他進入阿爾及利亞,走到利比亞,
07:15
pays a people smuggler to help him with the crossing into Italy by boat,
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花錢請人口販子協助搭船到義大利,
07:19
and from there on he heads to Dunkirk,
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再繼續來到法國敦克爾克,
07:21
the city right next to Calais by the English Channel.
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旁邊就是臨英吉利海峽的加萊市。
07:25
We know he made at least 12 failed attempts to cross the English Channel
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我們知道他至少 12 次 躲進卡車,嘗試橫渡英吉利海峽。
07:29
by hiding in a truck.
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07:31
But at some point, he must have given up all hope.
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某個時候,他一定是放棄了所有希望。
07:35
The last night we know he was alive,
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他活著的最後一夜,
07:37
he spent at a cheap hotel close to the train station in Dunkirk.
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住進敦克爾克火車站附近的廉價旅館。
07:41
We found his name in the records, and he seems to have stayed there alone.
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住房紀錄裡找到他的名字, 他似乎是獨自一人。
07:45
The day after, he went into Calais, entered a sports shop
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隔日,他到加萊市,逛進運動用品店,
07:49
a couple of minutes before 8 o'clock in the evening,
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晚上八點前幾分鐘,
07:52
along with Shadi Kataf.
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與薩帝在一起。
07:53
They both bought wetsuits,
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他們都買了潛水衣。
07:55
and the woman in the shop
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店裡的女士
07:57
was the last person we know of to have seen them alive.
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是最後看到他們活著的人。
08:01
We have tried to figure out where Shadi met Mouaz,
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我們想知道薩帝在哪裡遇到摩艾茲,
08:05
but we weren't able to do that.
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但是徒勞無功。
08:07
But they do have a similar story.
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但他們有類似的故事。
08:09
We first heard about Shadi after a cousin of his, living in Germany,
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我們透過薩帝住在德國的表親 得知他的故事。
08:13
had read an Arabic translation of the story made of Mouaz on Facebook.
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他的表親在臉書上讀到有關 摩艾茲的阿拉伯語翻譯文章,
08:18
So we got in touch with him.
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所以我們與這位表親聯繫上了。
08:20
Shadi, a couple of years older than Mouaz,
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薩帝比摩艾茲大幾歲,
08:23
was also raised in Damascus.
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也是在大馬士革長大。
08:25
He was a working kind of guy.
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他是藍領階級的人。
08:27
He ran a tire repair shop and later worked in a printing company.
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先是開了一間輪胎修理店, 後來任職一家印刷公司。
08:30
He lived with his extended family,
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他出身大家庭,
08:32
but their house got bombed early in the war.
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但是房子在內戰早期就被炸毀。
08:35
So the family fled to an area of Damascus known as Camp Yarmouk.
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所以舉家逃到大馬士革的 耶爾穆克難民營。
08:43
Yarmouk is being described as the worst place to live
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耶爾穆克難民營公認為 地球上居住環境最差的地方,
08:46
on planet Earth.
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08:49
They've been bombed by the military, they've been besieged,
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曾被軍隊轟炸,也曾被包圍,
08:52
they've been stormed by ISIS
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也曾被 ISIS 襲擊。
08:53
and they've been cut off from supplies for years.
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他們的補給已被切斷多年。
08:56
There was a UN official who visited last year,
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去年,一位聯合國的代表來訪,
08:58
and he said, "They ate all the grass so there was no grass left."
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他說:「他們把草全吃光,所以草都沒了。」
09:05
Out of a population of 150,000,
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15 萬人口中,
09:07
only 18,000 are believed to still be left in Yarmouk.
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只有 1 萬 8 千人還留在 耶爾穆克難民營。
09:11
Shadi and his sisters got out.
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薩帝和他的姐妹們逃出來。
09:14
The parents are still stuck inside.
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他們的父母還困在裡面。
09:18
So Shadi and one of his sisters, they fled to Libya.
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薩帝和一位姐妹逃到利比亞。
09:21
This was after the fall of Gaddafi,
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那是在格達費倒台後,
09:23
but before Libya turned into full-blown civil war.
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利比亞開始全面內戰前。
09:28
And in this last remaining sort of stability in Libya,
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在最後利比亞還算穩定時,
09:31
Shadi took up scuba diving, and he seemed to spend most of his time underwater.
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薩帝學習潛水, 且大部分的時間都在水裡。
09:37
He fell completely in love with the ocean,
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他完全愛上了大海,
09:40
so when he finally decided that he could no longer be in Libya,
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所以在 2014 年八月下旬, 當他決定離開利比亞時,
09:43
late August 2014,
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09:46
he hoped to find work as a diver when he reached Italy.
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他希望到義大利後, 能找到潛水夫的工作。
09:50
Reality was not that easy.
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事與願違。
09:53
We don't know much about his travels
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我們對他的旅程所知不多,
09:55
because he had a hard time communicating with his family,
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因為與家人聯繫困難。
但是我們知道他很掙扎。
09:58
but we do know that he struggled.
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10:00
And by the end of September,
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在九月下旬,
10:01
he was living on the streets somewhere in France.
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他流浪在法國街頭。
10:04
On October 7, he calls his cousin in Belgium,
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在 10 月 7 日, 他打電話給比利時的表親,
10:07
and explains his situation.
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告訴他狀況。
10:09
He said, "I'm in Calais. I need you to come get my backpack and my laptop.
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他說:「我在加萊市, 你來拿我的背包和筆電。
10:15
I can't afford to pay the people smugglers to help me with the crossing to Britain,
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我付不起人口販子 來幫我偷渡英國,
但我會買一套潛水衣游過去。」
10:19
but I will go buy a wetsuit and I will swim."
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10:22
His cousin, of course, tried to warn him not to,
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當然,他的表親嘗試勸阻他,
10:25
but Shadi's battery on the phone went flat,
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但薩帝的手機電池沒電了,
10:27
and his phone was never switched on again.
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從此手機就沒再打開。
10:31
What was left of Shadi was found nearly three months later,
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薩帝的屍體大約三個月後被發現,
10:35
800 kilometers away
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800 公里外,
10:37
in a wetsuit on a beach in Norway.
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在潛水衣內,在挪威的海灘。
10:40
He's still waiting for his funeral in Norway,
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他仍然在挪威等待他的葬禮,
10:42
and none of his family will be able to attend.
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但是沒有一個家人能夠參加。
10:47
Many may think that the story about Shadi and Mouaz
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許多人可能認為薩帝和摩艾茲的故事
10:49
is a story about death,
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是有關死亡的故事,
10:52
but I don't agree.
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我不同意。
10:54
To me, this is a story about two questions that I think we all share:
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對我而言,這是一個 有關我們共同面對的議題:
10:59
what is a better life,
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什麼是更好的生活?
11:01
and what am I willing to do to achieve it?
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以及我願意付出什麼代價去實現它?
11:04
And to me, and probably a lot of you,
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對我,以及大多數人而言,
11:06
a better life would mean
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更好的生活意味著
11:08
being able to do more of what we think of as meaningful,
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能夠做更多我們認為有意義的事,
11:11
whether that be spending more time with your family and friends,
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無論是多與親朋好友在一起、
11:14
travel to an exotic place,
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前往異國旅遊、
11:15
or just getting money to buy that cool new device
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有錢買新酷玩意,
11:18
or a pair of new sneakers.
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或者一雙新運動鞋。
11:19
And this is all within our reach pretty easily.
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這些都是我們能力所及。
11:23
But if you are fleeing a war zone,
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但是如果你正逃離戰區,
11:25
the answers to those two questions are dramatically different.
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這兩個問題的回答就顯然不同。
11:29
A better life is a life in safety.
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更好的生活是「安全」的生活,
11:32
It's a life in dignity.
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是「尊嚴」的生活,
11:34
A better life means not having your house bombed,
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更好的生活意味著 房子不會被轟炸、
11:37
not fearing being kidnapped.
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不用害怕綁架。
11:38
It means being able to send your children to school,
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意味著可以讓孩子上學、
11:41
go to university,
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上大學,
11:42
or just find work to be able to provide for yourself and the ones you love.
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或者只是找到工作 以養活自己和所愛的人。
11:46
A better life would be a future of some possibilities
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更好的生活是「有一些可能」的未來,
11:50
compared to nearly none,
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而非「全都不可能」的未來,
11:52
and that's a strong motivation.
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是一個強烈的動機。
11:55
And I have no trouble imagining
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我可以想像,
11:57
that after spending weeks or even months
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在數週甚至數月期間,
12:01
as a second-grade citizen,
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被當成二等公民,
12:03
living on the streets or in a horrible makeshift camp
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流落街頭,或住在恐怖的臨時營地,
12:07
with a stupid, racist name like "The Jungle,"
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住在被冠上愚蠢和種族歧視名字的 「叢林」難民營時,
12:10
most of us would be willing to do just about anything.
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大多數人都會竭盡所能 去做任何事改變現況。
12:15
If I could ask Shadi and Mouaz
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如果我可以問薩帝和摩艾茲,
12:17
the second they stepped into the freezing waters of the English Channel,
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在他們踏入英吉利海峽的 冰冷海水那一剎那,
12:21
they would probably say, "This is worth the risk,"
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他們可能會回答:「這值得我冒險,」
12:25
because they could no longer see any other option.
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因為他們無法看到任何其它選擇。
12:29
And that's desperation,
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那是絕望,
12:31
but that's the reality of living as a refugee in Western Europe in 2015.
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而這是 2015 年生活在 西歐的難民真實情況。
12:37
Thank you.
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謝謝!
12:39
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
12:49
Bruno Giussani: Thank you, Anders.
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布魯諾·朱薩尼:謝謝你,安德斯。
12:51
This is Tomm Christiansen,
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這是湯姆‧克里斯琴森,
12:52
who took most of the pictures you have seen and they've done reporting together.
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他拍了大部分相片,一起做這個報導。
12:57
Tomm, you two have been back to Calais recently.
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湯姆,你們兩位最近回到加萊市。
13:00
This was the third trip.
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這是第三次,
13:01
It was after the publication of the article.
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在發表這個文章之後去的。
13:03
What has changed? What have you seen there?
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那裡有改變嗎?你們看到什麼?
13:05
Tomm Christiansen: The first time we were in Calais,
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湯姆:我們第一次去開加萊市時,
13:08
it was about 1,500 refugees there.
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那裡有大約 1500 位難民。
13:10
They had a difficult time, but they were positive, they had hope.
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他們生活很困難, 但很樂觀,懷抱希望。
13:13
The last time, the camp has grown, maybe four or five thousand people.
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最後一次去時,營內人數大增, 也許有四、五千人。
13:18
It seemed more permanent, NGOs have arrived,
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似乎變成永久性,民間組織到了那裡,
13:21
a small school has opened.
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也開了一所學校。
13:23
But the thing is that the refugees have stayed for a longer time,
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但是難民在那裡已經住得很久,
13:26
and the French government has managed to seal off the borders better,
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法國政府也設法將邊境守得更緊,
13:31
so now The Jungle is growing,
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所以「叢林」難民營仍然擴大中,
13:34
along with the despair and hopelessness among the refugees.
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難民中的絕望亦然。
13:38
BG: Are you planning to go back? And continue the reporting?
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BG:你們計劃再回去那裡嗎? 會繼續報導嗎?
13:43
TC: Yes.
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TC:會。
13:44
BG: Anders, I'm a former journalist,
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BG:安德斯,我以前也是記者,
13:46
and to me, it's amazing that in the current climate
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對我而言,我很驚訝, 在當前的削減預算氛圍
13:49
of slashing budgets and publishers in crisis,
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和出版商的危機中,
13:51
Dagbladet has consented so many resources for this story,
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挪威日報同意為這個故事提供資源,
13:55
which tells a lot about newspapers taking the responsibility,
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這顯示了報紙承擔的責任,
13:58
but how did you sell it to your editors?
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你們如何說服主編的?
安德斯: 一開始時不太容易,
14:02
Anders Fjellberg: It wasn't easy at first,
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因為我們無法預測可以發現多少。
14:04
because we weren't able to know what we actually could figure out.
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14:08
As soon as it became clear
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事情明朗後,
14:09
that we actually could be able to identify who the first one was,
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我們馬上知道第一位是誰,
14:14
we basically got the message that we could do whatever we wanted,
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基本上我們就取得同意, 可以繼續調查,
14:17
just travel wherever you need to go, do whatever you need to do,
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到任何該去的地方, 做任何該做的事,
14:20
just get this done.
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只要把事情做好。
14:23
BG: That's an editor taking responsibility.
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BG: 那就是勇於負責的編輯。
14:26
The story, by the way, has been translated and published
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這個故事,順便說一下, 已經被翻譯成多國語言,
14:28
across several European countries, and certainly will continue to do.
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橫跨幾個歐洲國家出版了, 而且會繼續如此。
14:32
And we want to read the updates from you. Thank you Anders. Thank you Tomm.
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我們希望能知道後續情況。 謝謝你,安德斯。謝謝你,湯姆。
14:35
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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