Why giving away our wealth has been the most satisfying thing we've done... | Bill and Melinda Gates

翻译人员: Yuanqing Edberg 校对人员: Yumeng Guo

Chris Anderson: So, this is an interview with a difference.

克里斯·安德森：这次的访谈有些不寻常。

On the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words,

一张图片的背后往往是很长的故事，

what I did was, I asked Bill and Melinda

所以我做的就是，请比尔和梅琳达，

to dig out from their archive

从他们的收藏中挑选出一些照片，

some images that would help explain

这些照片不但会解释他们所做的一些事，

some of what they've done,

and do a few things that way.

还会给我们一些其他的帮助。

So, we're going to start here.

那么，我们就从这张开始。

Melinda, when and where was this,

梅琳达，这张照片拍摄的时间和地点是什么？

and who is that handsome man next to you?

你身边那个英俊的男人是谁？

Melinda Gates: With those big glasses, huh?

梅琳达·盖茨：戴着那副大眼镜的？哈？

This is in Africa, our very first trip,

这是非洲，我们最开始的第一次旅行，

the first time either of us had ever been to Africa,

我们两人都是第一次到非洲，

in the fall of 1993.

1993年秋天。

We were already engaged to be married.

我们已经订婚，

We married a few months later,

我们在几个月后结了婚。

and this was the trip where we really went to see

正是这次旅行让我们真正看到了那些动物和大草原。

the animals and to see the savanna.

It was incredible. Bill had never taken that much time

那实在难以置信。比尔从没有那么长的时间没去工作。

off from work.

But what really touched us, actually, were the people,

但真正让我们感动的，还是那里的人和极度贫困的状况。

and the extreme poverty.

We started asking ourselves questions.

我们开始问自己一些问题。

Does it have to be like this?

这里非得是这种状况吗？

And at the end of the trip,

在旅行结束的时候，

we went out to Zanzibar,

我们去了桑吉巴尔，

and took some time to walk on the beach,

花了些时间在海边漫步，

which is something we had done a lot

这是我们在约会的时候常常做的。

while we were dating.

And we'd already been talking about during that time

在那段时间我们已经在谈论，

that the wealth that had come from Microsoft

从微软得来的财富应该回馈社会，

would be given back to society,

but it was really on that beach walk

但就是在那次海边散步时，我们开始讨论，

that we started to talk about, well,

what might we do and how might we go about it?

我们可以做些什么？如何去做？

CA: So, given that this vacation

克里斯：是这次度假让世界最大的私有基金会得以创建，

led to the creation of

the world's biggest private foundation,

it's pretty expensive as vacations go. (Laughter)

那这次度假的花费可真够高的。

（笑声）

MG: I guess so. We enjoyed it.

梅琳达：我想是吧。但我们觉得很享受。

CA: Which of you was the key instigator here,

克里斯：你们俩谁是主要决策者？还是共同决策？

or was it symmetrical?

Bill Gates: Well, I think we were excited

比尔·盖茨：我们共同工作、探讨如何把钱回馈社会，

that there'd be a phase of our life

where we'd get to work together

生命中能有这么一段经历，对此我还是很激动的。

and figure out how to give this money back.

At this stage, we were talking about the poorest,

合作的时候，我们谈论着最贫穷的人们，

and could you have a big impact on them?

你能深刻地影响他们吗？

Were there things that weren't being done?

还有没有没做到的事情？

There was a lot we didn't know.

有很多我们是不知道的。

Our naïveté is pretty incredible,

当我们回想起来的时候，真是天真得难以置信。

when we look back on it.

But we had a certain enthusiasm

慈善事业，我的后微软时期应致力于我们的慈善事业， 对此我们确实有热情。

that that would be the phase,

the post-Microsoft phase

would be our philanthropy.

MG: Which Bill always thought was going to come

梅琳达：比尔之前总是想在他六十岁以后加入基金会，

after he was 60,

so he hasn't quite hit 60 yet,

实际上，离六十有一点儿距离，

so some things change along the way.

所以，有些想法是会改变的。

CA: So it started there, but it got accelerated.

克里斯：那么，基金会创立后，得到了飞速发展。

So that was '93, and it was '97, really,

那是93年，然后是97年，真的，

before the foundation itself started.

在基金会开始之前。

MA: Yeah, in '97, we read an article

梅琳达：是的，在97 年，我们读到一篇文章，

about diarrheal diseases killing so many kids around the world,

文章是关于全球范围内，腹泻病导致如此多的孩子死亡，

and we kept saying to ourselves,

我们一直对自己说，

"Well that can't be.

“那不可能。

In the U.S., you just go down to the drug store."

在美国，你只要去药店就行了。”

And so we started gathering scientists

于是我们开始召集科学家们，

and started learning about population,

开始学习人口分布、疫苗，

learning about vaccines,

learning about what had worked and what had failed,

了解了什么取得过成效、什么失败了，

and that's really when we got going,

那时才是我们真正开始慈善事业，

was in late 1998, 1999.

是在1998年后期，1999年。

CA: So, you've got a big pot of money

克里斯：那么，你们手握大笔资金，

and a world full of so many different issues.

面对一个充满了各种问题的世界。

How on Earth do you decide what to focus on?

你们到底是怎样决定专注于哪方面的慈善事业呢？

BG: Well, we decided that we'd pick two causes,

比尔：我们决定要专注于两方面，

whatever the biggest inequity was globally,

无论全球是如何地不平等，

and there we looked at children dying,

我们看到了儿童死亡的问题，

children not having enough nutrition to ever develop,

没有足够的营养供儿童活下来，

and countries that were really stuck,

因此，那些陷入这种困境的国家，

because with that level of death,

因为有一定的儿童死亡率，

and parents would have so many kids

父母就会生非常多的孩子，

that they'd get huge population growth,

这些国家的人口便会巨幅增长，

and that the kids were so sick

那些孩子病得很厉害，

that they really couldn't be educated

根本不可能受到教育，也不会养活自己。

and lift themselves up.

So that was our global thing,

因此，这是全球范围内（我们关注的慈善事业）。

and then in the U.S.,

而在美国，

both of us have had amazing educations,

我们两人都受过了不起的教育，

and we saw that as the way that the U.S.

我们知道，美国要实现平等教育的诺言，

could live up to its promise of equal opportunity

is by having a phenomenal education system,

需通过建立非凡的教育体系。

and the more we learned, the more we realized

我们知道得越多，我们越意识到美国并没有在实现诺言。

we're not really fulfilling that promise.

And so we picked those two things,

于是我们选择了这两方面，

and everything the foundation does

基金会做的每一件事都专注在这两方面。

is focused there.

CA: So, I asked each of you to pick an image

克里斯：我之前请你们每个人挑出一张

that you like that illustrates your work,

用来说明你的工作的图片，

and Melinda, this is what you picked.

梅琳达，这是你选择的图片，

What's this about?

这是关于什么的呢？

MG: So I, one of the things I love to do when I travel

梅琳达：我，当我旅行的时候，

is to go out to the rural areas and talk to the women,

我喜欢做的事情之一是到边远的地方跟女人们聊天，

whether it's Bangladesh, India, lots of countries in Africa,

无论是在孟加拉国、印度、非洲的许多国家，

and I go in as a Western woman without a name.

我以一个匿名的西方女子跟她们来往。

I don't tell them who I am. Pair of khakis.

我不说自己是谁，我穿着卡其裤。

And I kept hearing from women,

我旅行地越多，（我越）一直听到她们 一遍一遍又一遍地（说同一句话），

over and over and over, the more I traveled,

"I want to be able to use this shot."

“我想能够使用这个针剂。“

I would be there to talk to them about childhood vaccines,

我本想去那跟她们说儿童疫苗的事，

and they would bring the conversation around to

而她们会把谈话引到“我要得到的针剂呢？”

"But what about the shot I get?"

which is an injection they were getting called Depo-Provera,

她们提到的针剂叫做避孕针（Depo-Provera）

which is a contraceptive.

起到避孕的作用。

And I would come back and talk to global health experts,

我回来后，跟全球的健康专家谈话，

and they'd say, "Oh no, contraceptives

他们说，“喔，不，避孕药在发展中国家储备充分。”

are stocked in in the developing world."

Well, you had to dig deeper into the reports,

好吧，你必须在报告里挖掘得更深一些，

and this is what the team came to me with,

这是那个专家小组给我的结论，

which is, to have the number one thing

数据表明，她们最想用的东西在一年中有200多天缺货，

that women tell you in Africa they want to use

stocked out more than 200 days a year

explains why women were saying to me,

这就解释了她们为何会这样对我说，

"I walked 10 kilometers without my husband knowing it,

“我瞒着我丈夫，走了10千米，

and I got to the clinic, and there was nothing there."

我走到诊所，那儿什么都没有了。”

And so condoms were stocked in in Africa

因为美国和其他国家对艾滋病的（研究、宣传等）工作，

because of all the AIDS work that the U.S.

and others supported.

在非洲，避孕套是有库存的。

But women will tell you over and over again,

但她们会一遍一遍地告诉你，

"I can't negotiate a condom with my husband.

“我不能就避孕套问题跟我丈夫讨价还价。

I'm either suggesting he has AIDS or I have AIDS,

（让他带避孕套）要么暗示他，要么暗示我有艾滋病，

and I need that tool because then I can space

因此我需要工具（来避孕），

让孩子们出生的间隔长一些，

the births of my children, and I can feed them

这样我就能养育他们，还有机会教育他们。”

and have a chance of educating them."

CA: Melinda, you're Roman Catholic,

克里斯：梅琳达，你是罗马天主教徒，

and you've often been embroiled

就此问题你常被卷入争议中，

in controversy over this issue,

and on the abortion question,

还有流产的问题，这两方面，真的。

on both sides, really.

How do you navigate that?

你是如何应对的呢？

MG: Yeah, so I think that's a really important point,

梅琳达：确实，我想这确实是个重要的问题，

which is, we had backed away from contraceptives

我们全球的大家庭，在避孕方面退步了。

as a global community.

We knew that 210 million women

我们知道有2.1亿名妇女在说她们想要得到避孕工具，

were saying they wanted access to contraceptives,

even the contraceptives we have here in the United States,

即使在美国，（有些情况下）因为政治上的争议， 我们并没有给女们提供避孕用品，

and we weren't providing them

because of the political controversy in our country,

and to me that was just a crime,

对我来说那是一宗犯罪，

and I kept looking around trying to find the person

我一直在找寻一个能把此事上升到全球高度去推进的人，

that would get this back on the global stage,

and I finally realized I just had to do it.

最后我意识到，这个人就是我，我必须要这么做。

And even though I'm Catholic,

即使我是一个天主教徒，

I believe in contraceptives

我相信避孕用品（是可以使用的），

just like most of the Catholic women in the United States

就像在美国的声称在用避孕用品的大多数天主教妇女，

who report using contraceptives,

and I shouldn't let that controversy

我不应该让那些争议成为阻止我们的理由。

be the thing that holds us back.

We used to have consensus in the United States

在美国，我们曾经就避孕问题达成一致，

around contraceptives,

and so we got back to that global consensus,

于是我们力图让全球达成一致，

and actually raised 2.6 billion dollars

事实上我们就这个问题筹集到26亿美元。

around exactly this issue for women.

(Applause)

（掌声）

CA: Bill, this is your graph. What's this about?

克里斯：比尔，这是你的图表。这个图说明了什么？

BG: Well, my graph has numbers on it.

比尔：我的图表上面有数字。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I really like this graph.

我很喜欢这个图表。

This is the number of children

图表上的数字是每年在五岁前死去的孩子的数目，

who die before the age of five every year.

And what you find is really

你会发现，这真的是一个极为成功的故事，

a phenomenal success story

which is not widely known,

而它并不广为人知，

that we are making incredible progress.

我们有着难以置信的进展。

We go from 20 million

在我出生后不久的年份，这个数字是2000万，

not long after I was born

to now we're down to about six million.

如今下降到约600万。

So this is a story

这主要是一个疫苗的故事。

largely of vaccines.

Smallpox was killing a couple million kids a year.

天花曾每年杀死几百万个孩子。

That was eradicated, so that got down to zero.

天花已被根除了，所以这个数字降到了零。

Measles was killing a couple million a year.

麻疹曾每年杀死几百万人。

That's down to a few hundred thousand.

现在下降到几十万人。

Anyway, this is a chart

总之，这张图上，你希望数字下降的趋势会持续，

where you want to get that number to continue,

and it's going to be possible,

利用新的疫苗，让孩子接种疫苗，这个愿望可以实现。

using the science of new vaccines,

getting the vaccines out to kids.

We can actually accelerate the progress.

事实上，我们可以加快这个进程。

The last decade,

过去十年，

that number has dropped faster

这个数字下降的速度是前所未有的，

than ever in history,

and so I just love the fact that

因此，我很喜欢这个事实，

you can say, okay, if we can invent new vaccines,

你可以说，行，如果我们可以发明新的疫苗，

we can get them out there,

我们能够实现愿望，

use the very latest understanding of these things,

利用疫苗最新的研究成果，

and get the delivery right, that we can perform a miracle.

确保疫苗有效的配送，这样我们就能创造奇迹。

CA: I mean, you do the math on this,

克里斯：我说，你在这上面做了计算，

and it works out, I think, literally

它确实有了成果，我想，从报告上看来，

to thousands of kids' lives saved every day

跟前一年相比，每天都有几千个孩子得以拯救。

compared to the prior year.

It's not reported.

这个事实没有被报告过。

An airliner with 200-plus deaths

200多人丧生的飞机失事都是更大的新闻。

is a far, far bigger story than that.

Does that drive you crazy?

为此你会抓狂吗？

BG: Yeah, because it's a silent thing going on.

比尔：是的，因为拯救儿童的慈善活动一直低调。

It's a kid, one kid at a time.

这是孩子啊，一次一个，

Ninety-eight percent of this

夺去孩子生命的，有98%无关乎自然灾害。

has nothing to do with natural disasters,

and yet, people's charity,

然而，当遇到自然灾害时，人们会变得尤为慷慨。

when they see a natural disaster, are wonderful.

It's incredible how people think, okay,

人们的想法——好吧，或许包括我——和慈善基金的流向 真是让人摸不着头脑。

that could be me, and the money flows.

These causes have been a bit invisible.

这些原因或多或少地不为人知。

Now that the Millennium Development Goals

现在如“千年发展目标”等各样的行动在进展，

and various things are getting out there,

we are seeing some increased generosity,

我们看到越来越多的慷慨的举措，

so the goal is to get this well below a million,

所以我们的目标是让这个数字降到100万以内，

which should be possible in our lifetime.

在我们有生之年是可以实现的。

CA: Maybe it needed someone

who is turned on by numbers and graphs

克里斯：需要加入到这个行动中来的，

或许得是一个能为数字和图表所打动的人，

rather than just the big, sad face

而不是徒有一张忧国忧民的脸的人。

to get engaged.

I mean, you've used it in your letter this year,

我的意思是，今年你已经把它用在了你的公开声明中，

you used basically this argument to say that aid,

你用这个论断来表明，

contrary to the current meme

与认为救助是无价值且无效的现代观念相反，

that aid is kind of worthless and broken,

that actually it has been effective.

救助的确是有效的。

BG: Yeah, well people can take,

比尔：是的，人们可以理解，

there is some aid that was well-meaning

有些用心良苦的救助没有善终，

and didn't go well.

There's some venture capital investments

有些用心良苦的风险投资进展不顺，

that were well-meaning and didn't go well.

You shouldn't just say, okay, because of that,

你不该就此断言，好吧，因为此，

because we don't have a perfect record,

因为之前的努力都没好结果，

this is a bad endeavor.

救助就是一个得不偿失的努力。

You should look at, what was your goal?

你的关注点应是，目标是什么？

How are you trying to uplift nutrition

你怎样努力来提升孩子的营养水平、存活率和读写能力，

and survival and literacy

so these countries can take care of themselves,

来让这些国家自己解决问题，

and say wow, this is going well,

你会说，哇，这样进展下去不错，

and be smarter.

要变得更聪明一些。

We can spend aid smarter.

我们可以明智地进行救助。

It is not all a panacea.

这不全是灵丹妙药，

We can do better than venture capital, I think,

我想，我们可以比风险投资做得更好，

including big hits like this.

包括像这样的重要的举措。

CA: Traditional wisdom is that

克里斯：传统观念认为夫妇一起很难工作。

it's pretty hard for married couples to work together.

How have you guys managed it?

你们是如何做到的？

MG: Yeah, I've had a lot of women say to me,

梅琳达：是的，有很多女人对我说，

"I really don't think I could work with my husband.

“我真觉得我没法儿跟我丈夫一起工作，

That just wouldn't work out."

在一起就是不行。”

You know, we enjoy it, and we don't --

你知道，我们很享受一起工作，并且我们不......

this foundation has been a coming to for both of us

我和比尔共同见证了这个基金会不断发展、壮大，

in its continuous learning journey,

and we don't travel together as much

事实上，我们为基金会一同出差的次数 并没有比尔还在微软工作时的多，

for the foundation, actually, as we used to

when Bill was working at Microsoft.

We have more trips where we're traveling separately,

我们更多的时候是分开奔波的，

but I always know when I come home,

但我总是知道当我回家的时候，

Bill's going to be interested in what I learned,

比尔会对我所学到的东西感兴趣，

whether it's about women or girls

不管是关于女人还是女孩子们，

or something new about the vaccine delivery chain,

或是疫苗供应链的新闻，

or this person that is a great leader.

或是某个杰出的领导。

He's going to listen and be really interested.

他会听我讲述，会真的很感兴趣。

And he knows when he comes home,

并且他知道当他回家的时候，

even if it's to talk about the speech he did

即使是谈论他做过的演讲，

or the data or what he's learned,

或谈论些他了解的数据之类的东西，

I'm really interested,

我也会很感兴趣，

and I think we have a really collaborative relationship.

我想我们有着真正互助合作的关系。

But we don't every minute together, that's for sure.

但是我们不会每分钟都在一起，那是肯定的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: But now you are, and we're very happy that you are.

克里斯：但现在你们是在一起的，对此我们都很高兴。

Melinda, early on, you were basically

梅琳达，早些时候，台前幕后基本上由你来掌控，

largely running the show.

Six years ago, I guess,

我猜，是六年前，

Bill came on full time, so moved from Microsoft

比尔才变成全职的，他从微软过来，全职在基金会工作。

and became full time.

That must have been hard,

适应这个改变肯定很不容易。不是吗？

adjusting to that. No?

MG: Yeah. I think actually,

梅琳达：是啊，事实上，我想，

for the foundation employees,

对于比尔的到来，基金会的雇员们会有更多的担忧，

there was way more angst for them

than there was for me about Bill coming.

要远比我的担忧多。

I was actually really excited.

我其实很兴奋。

I mean, Bill made this decision

我是说，比尔在2006年宣布此项决定之前就下决心了，

even obviously before it got announced in 2006,

and it was really his decision,

而且，这的确是他的决定，

but again, it was a beach vacation

但还是要强调，那是在海滩度假时，

where we were walking on the beach

当我俩在海边漫步时，

and he was starting to think of this idea.

他才开始有这个想法。

And for me, the excitement of Bill

对我来说，这种兴奋，

putting his brain and his heart

比尔将他的智慧和心血浇灌在 这些世界性的难题和不平等问题，

against these huge global problems,

these inequities, to me that was exciting.

对于我来说，确实感到激动。

Yes, the foundation employees had angst about that.

是的，基金会的雇员们对此是担心的。

(Applause)

（掌声）

CA: That's cool.

克里斯：这很酷。

MG: But that went away within three months,

梅琳达：但那种担心在他加入我们三个月后就消失了。

once he was there.

BG: Including some of the employees.

比尔：包括一些雇员（也消失了）。

MG: That's what I said, the employees,

梅琳达：那就是我说的，雇员们，

it went away for them three months after you were there.

你去了三个月以后， 那种担心就消失了。

BG: No, I'm kidding. MG: Oh, you mean, the employees didn't go away.

比尔：不，我是开玩笑的。 梅琳达：哦，你是说，雇员们没有离开。

BG: A few of them did, but —

比尔：有几个走了，但是——

(Laughter)

（笑声）

CA: So what do you guys argue about?

克里斯：你们会谈论什么呢？

Sunday, 11 o'clock,

比如周日，11点钟，

you're away from work,

你们没在工作，

what comes up? What's the argument?

会发生什么？会讨论些什么？

BG: Because we built this thing

比尔：因为我们从一开始就一起建立这个基金会，

together from the beginning,

it's this great partnership.

这是很棒的合作关系。

I had that with Paul Allen

在微软的早期，我跟保罗·艾伦也是如此。

in the early days of Microsoft.

I had it with Steve Ballmer as Microsoft got bigger,

在微软扩张的时候，我跟史蒂夫·鲍尔默也是如此。

and now Melinda, and in even stronger,

现在是跟梅琳达，我们甚至是更好的合作伙伴，

equal ways, is the partner,

so we talk a lot about

我们会谈论些，比如，哪件事我们需要投入更多，

which things should we give more to,

which groups are working well?

那个团队做得比较好？

She's got a lot of insight.

她很有洞察力，

She'll sit down with the employees a lot.

她会经常坐下来跟雇员们沟通。

We'll take the different trips she described.

像她描述的那样，我们会去不同的地方出差。

So there's a lot of collaboration.

因此，我们会有很多合作。

I can't think of anything where one of us

我想不出哪怕一件事， 我或她会对某个问题有很执拗的意见。

had a super strong opinion

about one thing or another?

CA: How about you, Melinda, though? Can you? (Laughter)

克里斯：你觉得呢？梅琳达，你能分享一些吗？（笑声）

You never know.

这可说不好。

MG: Well, here's the thing.

梅琳达：是这样的。

We come at things from different angles,

我们从不同的角度来看问题，

and I actually think that's really good.

事实上我认为这是非常好的。

So Bill can look at the big data

比尔会关注大数据，说：

and say, "I want to act based on these global statistics."

“我想基于这些全球性的数据来行动。”

For me, I come at it from intuition.

我呢，我会用直觉来看问题，

I meet with lots of people on the ground

我实地探访了很多人，

and Bill's taught me to take that

比尔教给我的是，要把我的直觉跟全球性的数据作比较，

and read up to the global data and see if they match,

看看是不是吻合，

and I think what I've taught him

而我认为我教给他的是，

is to take that data

凭着数据，亲身去跟人们交流，去理解，

and meet with people on the ground to understand,

can you actually deliver that vaccine?

那种疫苗的供应流程可行吗？

Can you get a woman to accept those polio drops

你能让一个女人接受喂孩子小儿麻痹症药剂吗？

in her child's mouth?

Because the delivery piece

因为药品的供应跟科学研究同等重要。

is every bit as important as the science.

So I think it's been more a coming to over time

因此，我认为，逐渐地，

towards each other's point of view,

彼此的观点会靠近对方的观点，

and quite frankly, the work is better because of it.

很坦率地讲，我们的工作因此而更加出色了。

CA: So, in vaccines and polio and so forth,

克里斯：那么，在疫苗和小儿麻痹症等方面，

you've had some amazing successes.

你们已取得了不可思议的成就。

What about failure, though?

但是，失败呢？

Can you talk about a failure

你们能否谈一次失败的经历，

and maybe what you've learned from it?

或许，进一步谈谈从中学到了什么？

BG: Yeah. Fortunately, we can afford a few failures,

比尔：是的，幸运的是，我们能提供一些失败的经历，

because we've certainly had them.

因为我们确实有这样的故事。

We do a lot of drug work or vaccine work

有很多药品和疫苗的工作，明摆着要经历多次失败。

that you know you're going to have different failures.

Like, we put out, one that got a lot of publicity

比如有一个广受公众关注的例子，

was asking for a better condom.

是需要更高质量的避孕套的例子，

Well, we got hundreds of ideas.

我们有无数个想法。

Maybe a few of those will work out.

也许只有几个能成功。

We were very naïve, certainly I was, about a drug

我们非常天真，我肯定是太天真，

for a disease in India, visceral leishmaniasis,

关于治疗在印度的名为内脏利什曼病的药物，

that I thought, once I got this drug,

我以为，一旦我们有了这个药物，

we can just go wipe out the disease.

我们就可以消灭这个疾病。

Well, turns out it took an injection

但发现患者需要每天注射针剂，连续十天。

every day for 10 days.

It took three more years to get it than we expected,

这项计划要比预期的多消耗了三年时间，

and then there was no way

但还没有办法实现目标。

it was going to get out there.

Fortunately, we found out

幸运的是，我们发现如果杀死沙蝇，

that if you go kill the sand flies,

you probably can have success there,

就很有可能会成功，

but we spent five years,

但我们花了五年时间，

you could say wasted five years,

可以说是浪费了五年，

and about 60 million,

并且浪费了约6000万美元，

on a path that turned out to have

在我们实现目标后，发现取得的成效平平。

very modest benefit when we got there.

CA: You're spending, like, a billion dollars a year

克里斯：你们在教育方面差不多每年投入10亿美金，

in education, I think, something like that.

我想，差不多是这个数目，

Is anything, the story of what's gone right there

有没有这样的故事，历时经久而且绕了些圈子？

is quite a long and complex one.

Are there any failures that you can talk about?

有没有可供你们分享的失败的经历？

MG: Well, I would say a huge lesson for us

梅琳达：好吧，我要讲讲我们的一次巨大的教训。

out of the early work is we thought

早期的时候，我们觉得这些小规模学校是出路，

that these small schools were the answer,

and small schools definitely help.

小规模的学校的确有帮助。

They bring down the dropout rate.

它们降低了缀学率，

They have less violence and crime in those schools.

这些学校里，暴力和犯罪率更低。

But the thing that we learned from that work,

但我们从这项工作里学到的是，

and what turned out to be the fundamental key,

教室讲台上伟大的老师是关键所在，

is a great teacher in front of the classroom.

If you don't have an effective teacher

如果教室讲台上没有一位杰出的老师，

in the front of the classroom,

I don't care how big or small the building is,

我不会在乎教学楼是高还是矮，

you're not going to change the trajectory

都不会改变学生成长的轨迹，

of whether that student will be ready for college.

不会改变孩子是否会考上大学。

(Applause)

（掌声）

CA: So Melinda, this is you and

克里斯：梅琳达，这是你和你最大的女儿，简。

your eldest daughter, Jenn.

And just taken about three weeks ago, I think,

就在三个星期前照的，我想，

three or four weeks ago. Where was this?

是三到四周以前。这是哪里？

MG: So we went to Tanzania.

梅琳达：我们去了坦桑尼亚。

Jenn's been to Tanzania.

简去过坦桑尼亚。

All our kids have been to Africa quite a bit, actually.

事实上我们所有的孩子都去过非洲好几次，

And we did something very different,

我们做了一些不同寻常的事情，

which is, we decided to go spend

那就是我们决定与当地一家共度三个白天两个夜晚。

two nights and three days with a family.

Anna and Sanare are the parents.

安娜和思奈尔是父母。

They invited us to come and stay in their boma.

他们邀请我们住在他们的家里。

Actually, the goats had been there, I think,

事实上，我想，在我们去之前，

living in that particular little hut

山羊在他们小小的院落里一个特别小的棚屋里住过。

on their little compound before we got there.

And we stayed with their family,

我们跟他们一家住在一起，

and we really, really learned

我们真正知道了在坦桑尼亚的农村，生活是什么样子。

what life is like in rural Tanzania.

And the difference between just going

到那儿只访问半天或大半天， 跟在那儿住一夜的差别是巨大的，

and visiting for half a day

or three quarters of a day

versus staying overnight was profound,

and so let me just give you one explanation of that.

我来给你作个解释。

They had six children, and as I talked to Anna

他们有六个孩子，当我跟安娜在厨房里聊天，

in the kitchen, we cooked for about five hours

我们那天在棚屋里花了五个小时煮饭，

in the cooking hut that day,

and as I talked to her, she had absolutely planned

当我跟她谈话的时候，她已经跟丈夫完全计划好了，

and spaced with her husband

the births of their children.

让孩子出生的间隔大一些，

It was a very loving relationship.

他们是很相爱的夫妻。

This was a Maasai warrior and his wife,

这是马赛战士和她的妻子，

but they had decided to get married,

他们已经决定结婚了。

they clearly had respect and love in the relationship.

很明显，他们互相尊敬并且相爱。

Their children, their six children,

他们的孩子，他们的六个孩子，

the two in the middle were twins, 13,

中间的两个是双生子，13岁，

a boy, and a girl named Grace.

一个男孩，还一个女孩叫格雷斯。

And when we'd go out to chop wood

我们会出去砍木头，

and do all the things that Grace and her mother would do,

做格雷斯和她母亲所做的一切，

Grace was not a child, she was an adolescent,

格雷斯已不再是个孩子了，已经成为青少年，

but she wasn't an adult.

但还没成年。

She was very, very shy.

她非常非常地害羞。

So she kept wanting to talk to me and Jenn.

她一直想跟我和简说话。

We kept trying to engage her, but she was shy.

我们一直想让她参与进来，但她很害羞。

And at night, though,

而在晚上，

when all the lights went out in rural Tanzania,

当坦桑尼亚的农村所有的灯都熄灭以后，

and there was no moon that night,

那天晚上也没有月亮，

the first night, and no stars,

那第一个晚上，也没有星星，

and Jenn came out of our hut

简从我们的棚屋出来

with her REI little headlamp on,

带着她的REI头顶小灯，

Grace went immediately,

格雷斯立即过来了，

and got the translator,

还拿着翻译机，

came straight up to my Jenn and said,

直接来到我和简的身边说，

"When you go home,

“等你要回家时，

can I have your headlamp

你的头顶小灯能留给我吗？

so I can study at night?"

那样我就能在晚上学习了。”

CA: Oh, wow.

克里斯：喔，哇。

MG: And her dad had told me

梅琳达：她父亲告诉过我，

how afraid he was that unlike the son,

他非常担心她不会像他儿子那样通过考试，

who had passed his secondary exams,

because of her chores,

因为她要做家务，学习并不好，

she'd not done so well

and wasn't in the government school yet.

还没有进公立学校。

He said, "I don't know how I'm going to pay for her education.

他说，“我不知道该怎样付她的教育费用。

I can't pay for private school,

我付不起私立学校，

and she may end up on this farm like my wife."

她也许会像我的妻子一样在这个农场终老。“

So they know the difference

当然，他们知道教育能改变命运，

that an education can make

in a huge, profound way.

能在很大程度上改变命运。

CA: I mean, this is another pic

克里斯：我说，这是另一张照片，

of your other two kids, Rory and Phoebe,

你们其他的两个孩子，罗易和菲比，

along with Paul Farmer.

跟保罗·法默在一起。

Bringing up three children

作为全世界最富有的家庭，抚养三个孩子，

when you're the world's richest family

seems like a social experiment

看起来像一个社会学试验，

without much prior art.

而这没有太多先例。

How have you managed it?

你是怎样教育孩子的？

What's been your approach?

你的方法是什么？

BG: Well, I'd say overall

比尔：好吧，总的来说，孩子们得到了极好的教育，

the kids get a great education,

but you've got to make sure

但你必须确保他们对自己的能力要有认识，

they have a sense of their own ability

and what they're going to go and do,

他们要做什么，要走向哪里，

and our philosophy has been

我们育儿的理念非常清晰——

to be very clear with them --

most of the money's going to the foundation --

大部分的资产都会捐给基金会——

and help them find something they're excited about.

而我们会帮助他们找到他们热爱的东西，

We want to strike a balance where they have

我们力求达到一种平衡，

the freedom to do anything

让他们有自由做任何事情，

but not a lot of money showered on them

但不是单纯地把钱倾倒在他们身上，

so they could go out and do nothing.

否则他们可能在外面无所事事。

And so far, they're fairly diligent,

目前为止，他们相当勤奋，

excited to pick their own direction.

很兴奋地选择他们自己的方向。

CA: You've obviously guarded their privacy carefully for obvious reasons.

克里斯：你之前很小，心地保护他们的隐私， 出于众所周知的原因

I'm curious why you've given me permission

我很好奇你为什么准许我在TED展示这张照片。

to show this picture now here at TED.

MG: Well, it's interesting.

梅琳达：好吧，这很有趣。

As they get older, they so know

他们逐渐长大，也知道在我们家，责任是我们的信仰。

that our family belief is about responsibility,

that we are in an unbelievable situation

我们生活在美国，拥有优良的教育，

just to live in the United States

and have a great education,

这简直是不可思议，

and we have a responsibility to give back to the world.

我们有责任回馈世界。

And so as they get older

因此，当他们慢慢长大，

and we are teaching them --

我们在教育他们——

they have been to so many countries around the world —

他们去过世界上那么多国家——

they're saying,

他们说，

we do want people to know that we believe

我们的确想让人们知道我们相信你们所做的一切，

in what you're doing, Mom and Dad,

爸爸，妈妈，

and it is okay to show us more.

可以向社会更多地展现我们。

So we have their permission to show this picture,

因此我们得到了他们的许可来展示这张照片，

and I think Paul Farmer is probably going to put it

我想保罗·法默很可能最终会把这照片放进他某个作品，

eventually in some of his work.

But they really care deeply

但真的，他们也非常关心基金会的使命。

about the mission of the foundation, too.

CA: You've easily got enough money

克里斯：即便为基金会贡献了大量资产，

despite your vast contributions to the foundation

你们还是可以很轻松地让孩子们成为亿万富翁，

to make them all billionaires.

Is that your plan for them?

这是你们对他们的规划吗？

BG: Nope. No. They won't have anything like that.

比尔：不是，不是的。根本不会让他们如此成长。

They need to have a sense

他们需要有一种概念，

that their own work is meaningful and important.

即他们的工作有意义，而且重要。

We read an article long, actually, before we got married,

早在我们结婚以前，我们读过一篇文章，

where Warren Buffett talked about that,

文章是巴菲特写的，

and we're quite convinced that it wasn't a favor

我们确信把财富留给孩子，对社会、孩子都不是善举。

either to society or to the kids.

CA: Well, speaking of Warren Buffett,

克里斯：好吧，说到沃伦·巴菲特，

something really amazing happened in 2006,

在2006年发生了一件神奇的事情，

when somehow your only real rival

你的美国首富的唯一竞争者突然一百八十度大转弯，

for richest person in America

suddenly turned around and agreed to give

同意将其80%的财产捐给你的基金会。

80 percent of his fortune

to your foundation.

How on Earth did that happen?

那到底是怎么发生的？

I guess there's a long version and a short version of that.

我猜讲这个故事可长可短，

We've got time for the short version.

我们只有时间来说短的。

BG: All right. Well, Warren was a close friend,

比尔：好的，沃伦是我的好朋友，

and he was going to have his wife Suzie

他那时还在说服他的妻子苏西同意把财产捐出去。

give it all away.

Tragically, she passed away before he did,

但不幸的是，在他捐款之前，她就去世了。

and he's big on delegation, and

这样他就很高的有决策权了，并且

— (Laughter) —

——（笑声）——

he said —

他说——

CA: Tweet that.

BG: If he's got somebody who is doing something well,

克里斯：把它传到推特上。

比尔：如果他找到一个能妥善处理他的资产的人，

and is willing to do it at no charge,

他会无条件地乐于捐出财产，

maybe that's okay. But we were stunned.

（即便他捐给的基金会）也会是好的。 但是，（捐给了我们），我们的确很吃惊。

MG: Totally stunned. BG: We had never expected it,

梅琳达：完全地震惊。 比尔：我们从没期待过他会捐给我们，

and it has been unbelievable.

这简直难以置信。

It's allowed us to increase our ambition

这笔钱让我们可以拥有更高的志向，

in what the foundation can do quite dramatically.

让基金会可以做的事情大为不同。

Half the resources we have

我们的基金会一半的基金来源于沃伦“疯狂的”慷慨。

come from Warren's mind-blowing generosity.

CA: And I think you've pledged that

克里斯：我记得你作出过保证，

by the time you're done,

在你去世之前，

more than, or 95 percent of your wealth,

你将把你95%以上的个人资产捐给基金会。

will be given to the foundation.

BG: Yes.

比尔：是的。

CA: And since this relationship, it's amazing—

克里斯：因为你和沃伦关系。这很神奇——

(Applause)

（掌声）

And recently, you and Warren

最近，你和沃伦四处游说其他的亿万富翁和成功人士，

have been going around trying to persuade

other billionaires and successful people

to pledge to give, what,

让他们为慈善事业承诺捐出半数资产。

more than half of their assets for philanthropy.

How is that going?

这进行得如何？

BG: Well, we've got about 120 people

比尔：我们已经说服大概120人，

who have now taken this giving pledge.

他们已作出承诺。

The thing that's great is that we get together

这件事情美妙的地方在于，

我们一年聚一次，互相谈论，

yearly and talk about, okay,

do you hire staff, what do you give to them?

你雇了谁？你给了他们些什么？

We're not trying to homogenize it.

我们并不是试图一致行动，

I mean, the beauty of philanthropy

我的意思是，慈善的魅力在于不同思维火花的擦碰，

is this mind-blowing diversity.

People give to some things.

人们会有各自的选择，

We look and go, "Wow."

我们了解之后，“哇。”

But that's great.

但那是了不起的。这就是慈善，各有各的方式，

That's the role of philanthropy

is to pick different approaches,

including even in one space, like education.

即便是同样的领域，如教育，（也会有不同）。

We need more experimentation.

我们需要更多地实践。

But it's been wonderful, meeting those people,

但这一直很棒，结识不同的人，

sharing their journey to philanthropy,

分享他们的慈善事业经历，

how they involve their kids,

如何让他们的孩子介入，

where they're doing it differently,

他们在哪里做的不同，

and it's been way more successful than we expected.

这远比我们期待的更加成功。

Now it looks like it'll just keep growing in size

现在看来，在未来几年，它会持续增长。

in the years ahead.

MG: And having people see that other people

梅琳达：让人们看到其他人在通过慈善改变世界，

are making change with philanthropy,

I mean, these are people who have

我的意思是，这些人已经创造了自己的事业，

created their own businesses,

put their own ingenuity behind incredible ideas.

将才智转化为不可思议的想法。

If they put their ideas and their brain

如果他们把才智付诸于慈善事业，他们可以改变世界。

behind philanthropy, they can change the world.

And they start to see others doing it, and saying,

他们看到其他人致力于慈善事业，说：

"Wow, I want to do that with my own money."

“哇，我也想这样利用的我的财产。”

To me, that's the piece that's incredible.

对我而言，这就是最美妙的事情。

CA: It seems to me, it's actually really hard

克里斯：在我看来，事实上，对很多人来说，

for some people to figure out

想清楚如何把这么多的钱花在别处是极其困难的事情。

even how to remotely spend that much money

on something else.

There are probably some billionaires in the room

这间屋子里可能有些亿万富翁，

and certainly some successful people.

还肯定有一些成功人士。

I'm curious, can you make the pitch?

我很好奇，你能鼓动他们吗？

What's the pitch?

如何来鼓动？

BG: Well, it's the most fulfilling thing

比尔：好吧，慈善是我们做过的最有满足感的事情。

we've ever done,

and you can't take it with you,

你不能带着钱（升天），

and if it's not good for your kids,

而且如果把钱留给孩子会对他们不好，

let's get together and brainstorm

我们就一起“脑力风暴”，看看我们能做些什么。

about what we can be done.

The world is a far better place

因为慈善家过去的所作所为，世界已变得更加美好，

because of the philanthropists of the past,

and the U.S. tradition here, which is the strongest,

在美国这种传统深入人心，全世界都羡慕。

is the envy of the world.

And part of the reason I'm so optimistic

我之所以这么乐观，

is because I do think philanthropy

部分原因是我确实相信慈善事业会持续发展，

is going to grow

and take some of these things

承担一些政府不擅长做的事情， 发现希望所在，让光照亮在最需要的地方。

government's not just good at working on and discovering

and shine some light in the right direction.

CA: The world's got this terrible inequality,

克里斯：世界上存在着严重的不平等，

growing inequality problem

不平等的现象越来越多，似乎成了本质上的问题，

that seems structural.

It does seem to me that if more of your peers

在我看来，如果有更多的人像你们两位这样致力于慈善，

took the approach that you two have made,

it would make a dent

就会让世界有所不同。

both in that problem and certainly

不仅会解决不平等的问题，

in the perception of that problem.

当然也会改变人们对于不平等的认识。

Is that a fair comment?

我这样说合理吗？

BG: Oh yeah. If you take from the most wealthy

比尔：是的，如果你能将钱从最富有的人手里

and give to the least wealthy, it's good.

转移到最贫穷的人手里，那就是好的。

It tries to balance out, and that's just.

要努力实现平衡，这就是平衡。

MG: But you change systems.

梅琳达：你在改变制度。

In the U.S., we're trying to change the education system

在美国，我们在努力试着改变教育制度，

so it's just for everybody

这是在帮助所有人，

and it works for all students.

所有学生都会因此受惠。

That, to me, really changes

那对我来说，这就是改变了不平等。

the inequality balance.

BG: That's the most important.

比尔：那是最重要的。

(Applause)

（掌声）

CA: Well, I really think that most people here

克里斯：我真的认为这儿的大部分人和世界上的诸多富翁

and many millions around the world

are just in awe of the trajectory

都会为你们选择的人生道路而肃然起敬，

your lives have taken

and the spectacular degree to which

也为你们极大程度地改变未来而肃然起敬。

you have shaped the future.

非常感谢你们来到TED，

Thank you so much for coming to TED

and for sharing with us and for all you do.

跟我们分享你们所做的一切。

BG: Thank you. MG: Thank you.

比尔：谢谢你。 梅琳达：谢谢你。

(Applause)

（掌声）

BG: Thank you. MG: Thank you very much.

比尔：谢谢你们。 梅琳达：非常感谢你们。

BG: All right, good job. (Applause)

比尔：很了不起的工作。 （掌声）