Why giving away our wealth has been the most satisfying thing we've done... | Bill and Melinda Gates

譯者: Thunder Song 審譯者: Jina Chen

Chris Anderson: So, this is an interview with a difference.

克里斯·安德森：這是一個有點不同的採訪，

On the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words,

基於一張圖片勝過千言萬語，

what I did was, I asked Bill and Melinda

我請比爾和美琳達

to dig out from their archive

從他們的文件櫃裡找出

some images that would help explain

一些能夠有助於解釋他們

some of what they've done,

所完成的事情的圖片，

and do a few things that way.

以此來做些採訪。

So, we're going to start here.

我們從這裡開始。

Melinda, when and where was this,

美琳達，這是什麽時候，在哪裡，

and who is that handsome man next to you?

以及你身邊這個帥哥是誰？

Melinda Gates: With those big glasses, huh?

美琳達·蓋茲：你是說帶著大眼鏡的那個？

This is in Africa, our very first trip,

這是在非洲，我們的第一次，

the first time either of us had ever been to Africa,

之前我們都沒去過非洲，

in the fall of 1993.

那是1993年的秋天。

We were already engaged to be married.

那個時候我們已經訂婚了。

We married a few months later,

幾個月後就結婚了，

and this was the trip where we really went to see

這趟旅行我們特別想看

the animals and to see the savanna.

動物以及大草原。

It was incredible. Bill had never taken that much time

非常神奇。

比爾從未放假那麼長時間。

off from work.

But what really touched us, actually, were the people,

但真正感動我們的，是那裡的人，

and the extreme poverty.

以及那邊極度的貧困。

We started asking ourselves questions.

我們開始問自己，

Does it have to be like this?

這裡真的只能這樣嗎？

And at the end of the trip,

在我們旅行結束的時候，我們去了桑給巴爾島，

we went out to Zanzibar,

and took some time to walk on the beach,

並且花了點時間在沙灘上散步，

which is something we had done a lot

我們在交往的時候經常如此。

while we were dating.

And we'd already been talking about during that time

那時我們已在討論

that the wealth that had come from Microsoft

從微軟獲得的財富

would be given back to society,

將用於回報社會，

but it was really on that beach walk

但從那次海邊散步，

that we started to talk about, well,

我們真正開始討論

what might we do and how might we go about it?

我們可以做什麽 以及我們可以怎麼做？

CA: So, given that this vacation

克：所以，既然那次度假

led to the creation of

誕生了世界最大的私人基金會，

the world's biggest private foundation,

it's pretty expensive as vacations go. (Laughter)

這假期是十分昂貴了。

（笑）

MG: I guess so. We enjoyed it.

美：是這樣。我們很開心。

CA: Which of you was the key instigator here,

克：你們誰是主要的策動者，

or was it symmetrical?

還是你們是同等的？

Bill Gates: Well, I think we were excited

比爾·蓋茲：我覺得我們當時都很興奮，

that there'd be a phase of our life

想到我們人生將有一個階段

where we'd get to work together

我們能一起工作

and figure out how to give this money back.

以及研究如何將這筆錢回饋社會。

At this stage, we were talking about the poorest,

在那個階段，我們在討論最窮的階層。

and could you have a big impact on them?

能否對他們有重大的影響？

Were there things that weren't being done?

是否還有他們需要但沒人在做的事情？

There was a lot we didn't know.

有很多事情我們都還不瞭解。

Our naïveté is pretty incredible,

現在回首，那時我們是驚人的天真。

when we look back on it.

But we had a certain enthusiasm

但是我們有熱情，在那個階段，

that that would be the phase,

the post-Microsoft phase

微軟後的那個階段

would be our philanthropy.

會是我們的慈善事業。

MG: Which Bill always thought was going to come

美：比爾一直認為那個階段 會是在他60歲以後。

after he was 60,

so he hasn't quite hit 60 yet,

那他還沒到60，

so some things change along the way.

所以有些事在途中會改變。

CA: So it started there, but it got accelerated.

克：所以開始於那裡，但加速進行了。

So that was '93, and it was '97, really,

當時是1993，而真正基金會建立是1997。

before the foundation itself started.

MA: Yeah, in '97, we read an article

美：是。1997年我們讀了一篇文章，

about diarrheal diseases killing so many kids around the world,

是關於腹瀉導致各地太多孩子死去。

and we kept saying to ourselves,

我們一直對自己說：

"Well that can't be.

“這不對。

In the U.S., you just go down to the drug store."

在美國，你只需要去藥店。”

And so we started gathering scientists

所以我們開始找科學家，

and started learning about population,

開始研究學習人口、疫苗、

learning about vaccines,

learning about what had worked and what had failed,

哪些有效、哪些失敗了。

and that's really when we got going,

我們是從那個時候真正開始的。

was in late 1998, 1999.

大概在1998年末，1999年。

CA: So, you've got a big pot of money

克：所以你們有一大把錢，

and a world full of so many different issues.

以及一個充滿各種不同問題的世界。

How on Earth do you decide what to focus on?

你們怎麼決定關注哪一個問題？

BG: Well, we decided that we'd pick two causes,

比爾·蓋茲：我們決定挑選兩個事業，

whatever the biggest inequity was globally,

現在全球最不平等的是什麼，

and there we looked at children dying,

那我們關注的是 那些將死的孩子們，

children not having enough nutrition to ever develop,

沒有足夠營養去成長的孩子們，

and countries that were really stuck,

以及那些真正停滯的國家，

because with that level of death,

因為那樣高的死亡率，

and parents would have so many kids

父母會有很多孩子

that they'd get huge population growth,

以至於他們的人口快速增長，

and that the kids were so sick

孩子們又相當病弱，

that they really couldn't be educated

使他們無法接受教育

and lift themselves up.

來支持他們自己。

So that was our global thing,

那是我們在全球關注的事業。

and then in the U.S.,

然後在美國，

both of us have had amazing educations,

我們都接受了極好的教育，

and we saw that as the way that the U.S.

我們視為是美國

could live up to its promise of equal opportunity

實現它平等機會的諾言的方式，

is by having a phenomenal education system,

就是具有一個獨特非凡的教育體系。

and the more we learned, the more we realized

但隨著我們瞭解的更多，我們更意識到

we're not really fulfilling that promise.

我們沒有真的實現那個諾言。

And so we picked those two things,

所以我們選擇了這兩件事，

and everything the foundation does

而這個基金會做的所有事情

is focused there.

都是關注於這兩件事。

CA: So, I asked each of you to pick an image

克：我請你們各選了一張

that you like that illustrates your work,

你喜歡並且能夠說明 你做的工作的圖片。

and Melinda, this is what you picked.

美琳達，這是你選的。

What's this about?

這是關於什麼？

MG: So I, one of the things I love to do when I travel

美：旅遊中我最愛的事之一就是

is to go out to the rural areas and talk to the women,

去農村和當地的婦女聊天，

whether it's Bangladesh, India, lots of countries in Africa,

無論是孟加拉、印度，還是非洲的很多國家，

and I go in as a Western woman without a name.

我只作為一名無名的西方婦女去。

I don't tell them who I am. Pair of khakis.

我不跟她們說我是誰，只穿條卡其褲。

And I kept hearing from women,

我一直聽到的是，

over and over and over, the more I traveled,

隨著我旅行更多，我反覆聽到：

"I want to be able to use this shot."

“我想要這種注射針。”

I would be there to talk to them about childhood vaccines,

我是在和她們談兒童疫苗，

and they would bring the conversation around to

而她們會說：

"But what about the shot I get?"

“那我要有的那針呢？”

which is an injection they were getting called Depo-Provera,

那是她們得到的一種注射，叫狄波-普维拉，

which is a contraceptive.

是一種避孕手段。

And I would come back and talk to global health experts,

然後我回去會咨詢全球衛生專家，

and they'd say, "Oh no, contraceptives

然後他們會說：“不會，避孕用

are stocked in in the developing world."

發展中的國家都有庫存”。

Well, you had to dig deeper into the reports,

你需要在報告中挖深點，

and this is what the team came to me with,

這是我們團隊給我的。

which is, to have the number one thing

在非洲，婦女說的

that women tell you in Africa they want to use

她們最需要的東西

stocked out more than 200 days a year

一年中超過200天缺貨。

explains why women were saying to me,

這能解釋她們會說

"I walked 10 kilometers without my husband knowing it,

“我瞞著丈夫走了10公里到診所

and I got to the clinic, and there was nothing there."

但那裡什麼都沒有“。

And so condoms were stocked in in Africa

所以，避孕套在非洲是有庫存的，

because of all the AIDS work that the U.S.

是因為那些對愛滋病開展的工作

and others supported.

由美國和其它國家支持的。

But women will tell you over and over again,

但婦女也會反複告訴你：

"I can't negotiate a condom with my husband.

“我無法要求我的丈夫用避孕套，

I'm either suggesting he has AIDS or I have AIDS,

那是暗示他或者我有愛滋病。

and I need that tool because then I can space

但我需要它，因為那樣我能隔開

the births of my children, and I can feed them

生孩子的時間，我才能養他們

and have a chance of educating them."

並有機會教育他們。”

CA: Melinda, you're Roman Catholic,

克：美琳達，你是天主教徒。

and you've often been embroiled

你常被捲入

in controversy over this issue,

關於這個問題的爭論，

and on the abortion question,

以及關於墮胎的爭論，

on both sides, really.

而且是與正反兩方。

How do you navigate that?

你如何應對？

MG: Yeah, so I think that's a really important point,

美：是，這是非常重要的一點。

which is, we had backed away from contraceptives

作為全球的一員，我們對於避孕問題退縮了。

as a global community.

We knew that 210 million women

我們知道有2.1億女性

were saying they wanted access to contraceptives,

想得以使用避孕措施。

even the contraceptives we have here in the United States,

甚至只是我們美國有的避孕藥。

and we weren't providing them

但是我們因為國內的政治爭論而不提供，

because of the political controversy in our country,

and to me that was just a crime,

對我而言那是犯罪。

and I kept looking around trying to find the person

我一直在尋找人

that would get this back on the global stage,

將這個問題帶回全世界的關注，

and I finally realized I just had to do it.

最後我明白了自己必須去做。

And even though I'm Catholic,

即便我是一個天主教徒，

I believe in contraceptives

我相信避孕措施。

just like most of the Catholic women in the United States

就像美國大部份女性天主教徒

who report using contraceptives,

承認使用避孕措施，

and I shouldn't let that controversy

我不能讓這個爭議阻遏我們。

be the thing that holds us back.

We used to have consensus in the United States

我們在美國曾對避孕有共識。

around contraceptives,

and so we got back to that global consensus,

所以我們達成了全球的共識，

and actually raised 2.6 billion dollars

事實上我們爲了這個女性的問題

around exactly this issue for women.

募捐到26億美元。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: Bill, this is your graph. What's this about?

克：比爾，這是你的圖表，這是關於什麽？

BG: Well, my graph has numbers on it.

比：我的圖表上有數字。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

I really like this graph.

我非常喜歡這個圖表。

This is the number of children

這是每年五歲前夭折的兒童總數。

who die before the age of five every year.

And what you find is really

你會發現這真的

a phenomenal success story

是一個巨大成功的故事，但並不廣為人知，

which is not widely known,

that we are making incredible progress.

我們取得了多麼大的進展。

We go from 20 million

我們從2千萬，在我出生的年代，

not long after I was born

to now we're down to about six million.

到現在減少到6百萬。

So this is a story

這是一個主要關於疫苗的故事。

largely of vaccines.

Smallpox was killing a couple million kids a year.

過去每年幾百萬孩子死於天花，

That was eradicated, so that got down to zero.

但那被根除了，所以降到了0。

Measles was killing a couple million a year.

還有幾百萬是死於麻疹，

That's down to a few hundred thousand.

如今已經減少到幾十萬。

Anyway, this is a chart

無論如何，在這張表上

where you want to get that number to continue,

你希望那些數字繼續減少，

and it's going to be possible,

並且這將是可能的。

using the science of new vaccines,

使用新的疫苗科學，

getting the vaccines out to kids.

並為孩子們提供這些疫苗，

We can actually accelerate the progress.

我們實際上可以加速這樣的進程。

The last decade,

上個世紀，

that number has dropped faster

這個數量下降的很快，

than ever in history,

超過歷史上的任何一個時候。

and so I just love the fact that

我喜歡的是，

you can say, okay, if we can invent new vaccines,

如果我們可以發明新的疫苗，

we can get them out there,

我們可以將疫苗發放出去，

use the very latest understanding of these things,

利用最新的發現，

and get the delivery right, that we can perform a miracle.

並使用正確的傳輸技術， 我們就能創造奇蹟。

CA: I mean, you do the math on this,

克：如果你計算一下，那就是相比於上一年，

and it works out, I think, literally

平均每天有幾千個 兒童的生命得以遠離死亡。

to thousands of kids' lives saved every day

compared to the prior year.

It's not reported.

這並沒有被報導。

An airliner with 200-plus deaths

一架導致兩百多人死亡的飛機

is a far, far bigger story than that.

是一個比這個重大得多的新聞。

Does that drive you crazy?

那會讓你抓狂嗎？

BG: Yeah, because it's a silent thing going on.

比：是的，因為這是個默默發生的事情。

It's a kid, one kid at a time.

這是一個孩子，一次一個孩子。

Ninety-eight percent of this

這裡98%與自然災害無關，

has nothing to do with natural disasters,

and yet, people's charity,

但是， 當人們看到自然災害的時候， 人們的善心是極好的。

when they see a natural disaster, are wonderful.

It's incredible how people think, okay,

很神奇地，人們想到

that could be me, and the money flows.

“喔那可能發生在我身上”，於是錢就出去了。

These causes have been a bit invisible.

這些社會事業之前的可見度較低。

Now that the Millennium Development Goals

如今聯合國千禧年發展目標

and various things are getting out there,

並且各種事情都開始為人所知道，

we are seeing some increased generosity,

我們有看到更多慷慨的捐助。

so the goal is to get this well below a million,

所以，目標就是將這個數量減少到百萬以下，

which should be possible in our lifetime.

在我們的一生中應該是可以實現的。

CA: Maybe it needed someone

克：可能它需要那種會注意數字和圖表

who is turned on by numbers and graphs

rather than just the big, sad face

多於一張大大的，悲傷的臉的人來參與。

to get engaged.

這幾年你都在信中用了這個觀點去論證。

I mean, you've used it in your letter this year,

you used basically this argument to say that aid,

contrary to the current meme

於援助破碎、無價值的當下流行觀點相反，

that aid is kind of worthless and broken,

that actually it has been effective.

援助事實上有效果。

BG: Yeah, well people can take,

比爾：是的，人們可以說……

there is some aid that was well-meaning

有一些救援是善意的

and didn't go well.

但是進行並不順利。

There's some venture capital investments

也有一些風險投資

that were well-meaning and didn't go well.

是善意的但進行並不順利。

You shouldn't just say, okay, because of that,

你不能就說，

because we don't have a perfect record,

因為我們沒有完美無缺，

this is a bad endeavor.

這就是個不好的努力。

You should look at, what was your goal?

你應該關注，你的目標是什麽？

How are you trying to uplift nutrition

你如何嘗試去提高營養、

and survival and literacy

生存，以及教育，

so these countries can take care of themselves,

使得這些國家可以自己解決這些問題，

and say wow, this is going well,

然後說，哇，這個進行得真順利，

and be smarter.

並且更明智。

We can spend aid smarter.

我們可以更明智的去實施援助。

It is not all a panacea.

這並不全是靈丹妙藥。

We can do better than venture capital, I think,

我認為我們可以做的 比風險投資更好，

including big hits like this.

包括像這樣的特大成功。

CA: Traditional wisdom is that

克：傳統上人們普遍認為， 夫婦一起工作是很困難的。

it's pretty hard for married couples to work together.

How have you guys managed it?

你們是如何做到的？

MG: Yeah, I've had a lot of women say to me,

美：是的，很多女性對我說過，

"I really don't think I could work with my husband.

“我真的不覺得我可以和我丈夫一起工作。

That just wouldn't work out."

就是做不到。”

You know, we enjoy it, and we don't --

我們很享受，

this foundation has been a coming to for both of us

這個基金會對我們而言

in its continuous learning journey,

是一個持續學習的旅程。

and we don't travel together as much

其實我們爲基金會沒有很多一起的旅行，

for the foundation, actually, as we used to

不及比爾還在微軟工作時那麽經常。

when Bill was working at Microsoft.

We have more trips where we're traveling separately,

我們有更多分開的旅行，

but I always know when I come home,

但是我知道當我回家後，

Bill's going to be interested in what I learned,

比爾會對我所學到的東西非常感興趣，

whether it's about women or girls

無論是關於婦女還是女孩，

or something new about the vaccine delivery chain,

又或者是關於疫苗輸送環節的事情，

or this person that is a great leader.

或者是某個人是一個很好的領導者。

He's going to listen and be really interested.

他會傾聽並且非常感興趣。

And he knows when he comes home,

而他知道當他回家後，

even if it's to talk about the speech he did

即便要討論他說過的演講、

or the data or what he's learned,

或是數據，或是他所學到的東西，

I'm really interested,

我也非常感興趣，

and I think we have a really collaborative relationship.

並且我認為我們真正有一種合作的關係。

But we don't every minute together, that's for sure.

但我們並沒有每分鐘都在一起，這是肯定的。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

克：你們現在在一起， 我們非常高興你們都在。

CA: But now you are, and we're very happy that you are.

Melinda, early on, you were basically

美琳達，早些時候，基本上

都是你在做決策。

largely running the show.

Six years ago, I guess,

大約6年前，

Bill came on full time, so moved from Microsoft

比爾離開了微軟變成了全職。

and became full time.

That must have been hard,

那時對此適應一定非常困難，不是嗎？

adjusting to that. No?

MG: Yeah. I think actually,

美：是的，我認為事實上，

for the foundation employees,

對於基金會的員工，

there was way more angst for them

對於比爾的到來，

than there was for me about Bill coming.

他們比我更加焦慮。

I was actually really excited.

事實上，我當時真的非常興奮。

I mean, Bill made this decision

比爾做了這個決定

even obviously before it got announced in 2006,

——當然是2006年宣佈之前就決定了，

and it was really his decision,

這真的是他自己的決定。

but again, it was a beach vacation

但是，又是有個有沙灘的假期，

where we were walking on the beach

我們沿著海灘散步，

and he was starting to think of this idea.

並且開始考慮這個主意。

And for me, the excitement of Bill

對我而言，比爾

putting his brain and his heart

全身心的投入抵抗這些 巨大的全球難題、這些不平等，

against these huge global problems,

these inequities, to me that was exciting.

對我而言那是令人激動的。

Yes, the foundation employees had angst about that.

是的，基金會的員工對此焦慮過……

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: That's cool.

克：那很棒！

MG: But that went away within three months,

美：但那焦慮三個月之內就沒有了，

once he was there.

從比爾到來後。

BG: Including some of the employees.

比爾：包括一些員工。

MG: That's what I said, the employees,

美：我是說員工，這種感覺在 你到來之後三個月就沒有了。

it went away for them three months after you were there.

BG: No, I'm kidding. MG: Oh, you mean, the employees didn't go away.

美：哦，你是說...... 員工可沒走。

BG: A few of them did, but —

比爾：沒，開玩笑的。 有幾個是離開了，但是......

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: So what do you guys argue about?

克：你們兩人會爭論什麽？

Sunday, 11 o'clock,

比方說，週日11點，

you're away from work,

你們沒在工作，

what comes up? What's the argument?

會談到什麽？爭論是什麽？

BG: Because we built this thing

比爾·蓋茨：因為我們從最開始一起建立了這個。

together from the beginning,

it's this great partnership.

這是個偉大的合作關係。

I had that with Paul Allen

在微軟早期的時候， 我與保羅·艾倫有這樣的關係；

in the early days of Microsoft.

I had it with Steve Ballmer as Microsoft got bigger,

在微軟壯大的時期，我和史蒂夫·巴爾默 也有這樣的關係；

and now Melinda, and in even stronger,

如今和美琳達，甚至 更強和平等的方式，是合作夥伴。

equal ways, is the partner,

so we talk a lot about

我們討論了很多，

which things should we give more to,

關於我們應該更加關注什麽，

which groups are working well?

哪一個小組運行良好？

She's got a lot of insight.

她有很多見解。

She'll sit down with the employees a lot.

她會和員工一起討論很多。

We'll take the different trips she described.

像她所描述的一樣，我們有著不同的旅行。

So there's a lot of collaboration.

所以會有很多不同的合作。

I can't think of anything where one of us

我不記得我們其中任何一個人

had a super strong opinion

對於任何一件事，

會有著一種非常強的執念。

about one thing or another?

CA: How about you, Melinda, though? Can you? (Laughter)

克：那你呢，美琳達，你記得嗎？ （笑聲）

You never know.

你永遠不知道。

MG: Well, here's the thing.

美：事情是這樣的。

We come at things from different angles,

我們對同一件事情有著不同的角度，

and I actually think that's really good.

並且事實上我認為那是好的。

So Bill can look at the big data

比爾關注著大量的數據，

and say, "I want to act based on these global statistics."

然後說：“我的做法是基於全球的數據。”

For me, I come at it from intuition.

而我則是從直覺的角度。

I meet with lots of people on the ground

我實地探訪很多人，

and Bill's taught me to take that

而比爾教會我將那些

and read up to the global data and see if they match,

和閱讀到的全球數據放一起，看它們是否匹配，

and I think what I've taught him

而我認為我教他的，

is to take that data

是去使用那些數據

and meet with people on the ground to understand,

並且去見一些相關的人，

can you actually deliver that vaccine?

來瞭解你能確實運送那些疫苗嗎？

Can you get a woman to accept those polio drops

你能讓一位婦女接受脊髓灰質炎藥丸 （脊髓灰质炎俗稱為小兒痲痹症）

in her child's mouth?

並餵給她的孩子嗎？

Because the delivery piece

因為運輸的這一塊

is every bit as important as the science.

和科學同等重要。

So I think it's been more a coming to over time

所以我認為久而久之

towards each other's point of view,

我們相互慢慢接近另一方的觀點，

and quite frankly, the work is better because of it.

坦率的說，我們的工作也因此更好。

CA: So, in vaccines and polio and so forth,

克：所以，在疫苗以及脊髓灰質炎等，

you've had some amazing successes.

你們有著驚人的成功。

What about failure, though?

那麼關於失敗呢？

Can you talk about a failure

你們能否談談一次失敗

and maybe what you've learned from it?

以及你們從中獲得了什麽？

BG: Yeah. Fortunately, we can afford a few failures,

比爾：幸運的是，我們能夠承受幾次失敗，

because we've certainly had them.

因為我們確實有過失敗。

We do a lot of drug work or vaccine work

我們做了很多關於藥品以及疫苗的工作，

that you know you're going to have different failures.

你知道你將會遇到不同的失敗。

Like, we put out, one that got a lot of publicity

比如，我們提出過，一個被廣泛宣傳的，

was asking for a better condom.

要求更好避孕套的設計競賽。

Well, we got hundreds of ideas.

我們收到了幾百個構思。

Maybe a few of those will work out.

可能其中的幾個能夠成功。

We were very naïve, certainly I was, about a drug

我們當時非常天真，我確實是，對於

for a disease in India, visceral leishmaniasis,

印度一種疾病的藥品， 內臟利什曼病 (俗稱黑熱病)。

that I thought, once I got this drug,

當時我想，一旦我得到這種藥，

we can just go wipe out the disease.

我們就能抹去這個疾病了。

Well, turns out it took an injection

然而，事實上它需要10天，每天注射一次；

every day for 10 days.

It took three more years to get it than we expected,

藥品比我們預期的多花了三年之久；

and then there was no way

然後又沒法將它運去印度使用。

it was going to get out there.

Fortunately, we found out

幸運的是，我們發現，如果你去消滅白蛉

that if you go kill the sand flies,

you probably can have success there,

那你估計能成功。

but we spent five years,

但是我們花了5年，

you could say wasted five years,

或者說浪費了5年，

and about 60 million,

以及大約6千萬，

on a path that turned out to have

在一條最終只獲益非常小的方法上。

very modest benefit when we got there.

CA: You're spending, like, a billion dollars a year

克：你每年都要在教育上 花大約幾十億美金。

in education, I think, something like that.

Is anything, the story of what's gone right there

這個方面取得的成功是個 很長且複雜的故事。

is quite a long and complex one.

Are there any failures that you can talk about?

你能說說有什麽失敗的嗎？

MG: Well, I would say a huge lesson for us

美：我覺得我們早期的工作 教會了我們重要的一課，

out of the early work is we thought

that these small schools were the answer,

是我們認為小學校能解決問題。

and small schools definitely help.

小型學校確實很有幫助，

They bring down the dropout rate.

他們降低輟學率、

They have less violence and crime in those schools.

這些學校當中更少暴力和犯罪，

But the thing that we learned from that work,

但是我們從這之中學到的，

and what turned out to be the fundamental key,

而且發現最根本的關鍵

is a great teacher in front of the classroom.

是在教室前的偉大的老師。

If you don't have an effective teacher

如果你沒有一個好的老師站在教室裡，

in the front of the classroom,

I don't care how big or small the building is,

我不在乎這棟樓多大或者多小，

you're not going to change the trajectory

你不會改變這些學生的人生軌跡，

of whether that student will be ready for college.

或者他們是否會對高等教育做好準備。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: So Melinda, this is you and

克·安德森：所以美琳達，這就是你

your eldest daughter, Jenn.

以及你的大女兒，珍妮。

And just taken about three weeks ago, I think,

是3或4週前的照片，這是在哪？

three or four weeks ago. Where was this?

MG: So we went to Tanzania.

美：我們當時去了坦桑尼亞。珍妮曾去過。

Jenn's been to Tanzania.

All our kids have been to Africa quite a bit, actually.

事實上我們的孩子都去過很多次非洲，

And we did something very different,

我們做了不同的事情，

which is, we decided to go spend

我們決定

two nights and three days with a family.

用三天兩夜的時間和當地家庭一起生活。

Anna and Sanare are the parents.

安娜和薩那，是父母。

They invited us to come and stay in their boma.

他們邀請我們參觀他們的茅草棚。 （BOMA源自於斯瓦西裡語，是馬賽族所居住的草棚）

Actually, the goats had been there, I think,

事實上，似乎這隻山羊也是，

living in that particular little hut

在我們到來之前，住在那個小草棚裡。

on their little compound before we got there.

And we stayed with their family,

我們和他們那個家庭一起生活，

and we really, really learned

我們真的學到了

what life is like in rural Tanzania.

坦桑尼亞的農村生活是什麽樣的。

And the difference between just going

相比於只是去那裡半天，

and visiting for half a day

or three quarters of a day

或者大半天，

versus staying overnight was profound,

在那裡住一晚是更加意義深刻的。

and so let me just give you one explanation of that.

我來為此給一個解釋。

They had six children, and as I talked to Anna

他們有6個孩子，當我和安娜在廚房聊天的時候

in the kitchen, we cooked for about five hours

——我們那天在做飯的棚裡大概5個小時，

in the cooking hut that day,

and as I talked to her, she had absolutely planned

當我和她聊到，她曾和她的丈夫計劃

and spaced with her husband

the births of their children.

安排他們生孩子的數目。

It was a very loving relationship.

這是一個充滿愛的關係。

This was a Maasai warrior and his wife,

這是個馬賽族的戰士和他的妻子，

but they had decided to get married,

但是他們決定結婚，

they clearly had respect and love in the relationship.

他們的關係是有尊重與愛情的。

Their children, their six children,

他們的六個孩子，

the two in the middle were twins, 13,

中間兩個是雙胞胎，13歲，

a boy, and a girl named Grace.

一個男孩，以及一個女孩叫做格蕾絲。

And when we'd go out to chop wood

當我們出門砍柴以及 做格蕾絲和她母親做的活

and do all the things that Grace and her mother would do,

Grace was not a child, she was an adolescent,

——格蕾絲不是個小孩子，她是個青少年，

but she wasn't an adult.

但還不是個成年人。

She was very, very shy.

她非常非常的害羞。

So she kept wanting to talk to me and Jenn.

所以她一直想於 我和珍妮說話，

We kept trying to engage her, but she was shy.

我們嘗試交流，但是她很害羞。

And at night, though,

但晚上，當坦桑尼亞農村的燈全都滅了以後，

when all the lights went out in rural Tanzania,

and there was no moon that night,

那一夜的晚上沒有月亮，

the first night, and no stars,

第一晚，沒有星星。

and Jenn came out of our hut

珍妮從我們的草棚走出去，

with her REI little headlamp on,

帶著她的REI的小頭燈， （REI：全球最大的戶外用品連鎖零售組織）

Grace went immediately,

格蕾絲也立刻出去

and got the translator,

找到翻譯，

came straight up to my Jenn and said,

直接走向珍妮，說：

"When you go home,

“當你回家的時候，

can I have your headlamp

你能把頭燈送給我嗎？

so I can study at night?"

這樣我就可以在晚上學習了。”

CA: Oh, wow.

克：哦，哇。

MG: And her dad had told me

美：她的父親告訴過我

how afraid he was that unlike the son,

他是多麼的擔心，因為不像他的兒子

who had passed his secondary exams,

已經通過了中學考試，

because of her chores,

因為她的家務事，

she'd not done so well

她考得並不好，

and wasn't in the government school yet.

所以還沒上公立學校。

He said, "I don't know how I'm going to pay for her education.

他說：“我不知道我如何才能支付她的教育費用。

I can't pay for private school,

我付不起私立學校的錢，

and she may end up on this farm like my wife."

她可能會像我妻子一樣 在這個農場裡生活。”

So they know the difference

所以，他們知道教育可以讓他們的人生產生

that an education can make

in a huge, profound way.

巨大、深刻的不同。

CA: I mean, this is another pic

克：這是另一張照片，

of your other two kids, Rory and Phoebe,

是你以及你另外兩個孩子，洛瑞和菲比，

along with Paul Farmer.

和保羅·法姆。

要養大三個孩子，

Bringing up three children

when you're the world's richest family

當你們是世界上 最富有家庭的時候，

seems like a social experiment

就好像一個沒有很多前例社會實驗。

without much prior art.

How have you managed it?

你們是如何處理的？

What's been your approach?

你們的方法是什麽？

BG: Well, I'd say overall

比：總的來說

the kids get a great education,

這些孩子獲得了良好的教育。

but you've got to make sure

但是你需要確定

they have a sense of their own ability

他們有感到他們自己的能力

and what they're going to go and do,

知道要去哪以及要做什麽。

and our philosophy has been

我們在這方面的理念

to be very clear with them --

就是讓他們清楚

most of the money's going to the foundation --

我們大部份的錢都會捐給基金會，

and help them find something they're excited about.

以及幫助他們找到真正熱衷的事情。

We want to strike a balance where they have

我們希望達到一個平衡，

the freedom to do anything

讓他們能夠自由去做任何事，

but not a lot of money showered on them

但不是將一大筆錢撒給他們

so they could go out and do nothing.

使他們能出去什麽都不做。

And so far, they're fairly diligent,

到目前為止，他們相當勤奮，

excited to pick their own direction.

對於選擇自己的方向很興奮。

CA: You've obviously guarded their privacy carefully for obvious reasons.

克：你們確實保護了他們的隱私， 原因自然很明顯。

I'm curious why you've given me permission

我很好奇爲什麽你們允許我

to show this picture now here at TED.

在 TED 上曬出這張照片。

MG: Well, it's interesting.

美：這很有趣。

As they get older, they so know

當他們長大後，他們很明白

that our family belief is about responsibility,

我們家的信仰是責任，

that we are in an unbelievable situation

我們身處於一個不敢想像的環境，

just to live in the United States

生活在美國，

and have a great education,

有良好的教育，

and we have a responsibility to give back to the world.

我們有責任回報於世界。

And so as they get older

當他們長大以後

and we are teaching them --

我們也在教他們 ——

they have been to so many countries around the world —

他們去過世界上那麼多的國家 ——

they're saying,

他們會說，

we do want people to know that we believe

我們希望所有人能知道我們相信

in what you're doing, Mom and Dad,

你們所做的，老爸老媽

and it is okay to show us more.

讓我們露臉多些真的沒關係。

So we have their permission to show this picture,

所以我們獲得了他們曬這張照片的許可，

and I think Paul Farmer is probably going to put it

而且我想保羅·法姆可能會

eventually in some of his work.

最終把這張照片放到他的工作裡去。

But they really care deeply

但是我他們真的十分關心

about the mission of the foundation, too.

基金會的使命。

CA: You've easily got enough money

克：你們有足夠的資金， 即使對基金會大量捐款

despite your vast contributions to the foundation

仍能使他們成為億萬富翁， 那是你們的計劃嗎？

to make them all billionaires.

Is that your plan for them?

BG: Nope. No. They won't have anything like that.

比爾：不會。他們不會有任何那樣的東西。

They need to have a sense

他們需要一種感覺，

that their own work is meaningful and important.

就是他們自己的工作 是有價值的並且重要的。

We read an article long, actually, before we got married,

我們事實上讀了一篇很長的文章—— 在我們結婚之前，

where Warren Buffett talked about that,

華倫·巴菲特對此談過，

and we're quite convinced that it wasn't a favor

我們十分相信這不是一種恩惠，

either to society or to the kids.

無論是對社會還是對孩子而言。

CA: Well, speaking of Warren Buffett,

克·安德森：說到華倫·巴菲特，

something really amazing happened in 2006,

2006年發生了一些令人震驚的事情，

when somehow your only real rival

你作為美國最富有的人， 唯一真正的對手 (指巴菲特)，

for richest person in America

suddenly turned around and agreed to give

不知為何突然同意

80 percent of his fortune

將他80%的財富捐給

to your foundation.

你的基金會。

How on Earth did that happen?

那事怎麼發生的？

I guess there's a long version and a short version of that.

我想會有個長版本，和一個短版本。

We've got time for the short version.

我們只有時間聽短點的版本了。

BG: All right. Well, Warren was a close friend,

比：好吧，華倫是一個很好的朋友，

and he was going to have his wife Suzie

並且他曾打算讓他的妻子蘇西

give it all away.

全部捐掉。

Tragically, she passed away before he did,

難過的是，她在他之前離世了，

and he's big on delegation, and

而他很善於下放工作。

— (Laughter) —

（笑聲）

he said —

他說——

CA: Tweet that.

BG: If he's got somebody who is doing something well,

克：我要把這發到推特上去。

比：如果他找到一個人 能夠把事情做的特別好，

and is willing to do it at no charge,

而且願意無償去做，

maybe that's okay. But we were stunned.

也許是可以的。但是我們震驚了。

MG: Totally stunned. BG: We had never expected it,

美：完全震驚了。 比：我們從來不期望，

and it has been unbelievable.

並且這真是不可思議的，

It's allowed us to increase our ambition

這大幅增長了我們對於

in what the foundation can do quite dramatically.

基金會能夠成就的抱負。

Half the resources we have

我們所擁有的一半資源

come from Warren's mind-blowing generosity.

都來自華倫震撼人心的慷慨。

CA: And I think you've pledged that

克：你好像為此承諾當你走完人生，

by the time you're done,

more than, or 95 percent of your wealth,

你自己95%的財富

will be given to the foundation.

都將捐給基金會。

BG: Yes.

比：是的。

CA: And since this relationship, it's amazing—

克：是因為這種關係，了不起！

(Applause)

（掌聲）

And recently, you and Warren

最近，你和沃倫

have been going around trying to persuade

都在嘗試去說服

other billionaires and successful people

其他的億萬富翁以及成功人士

to pledge to give, what,

去承諾捐助慈善事業

more than half of their assets for philanthropy.

超過他們自己半數的財富。

How is that going?

現在進行的怎麼樣了？

BG: Well, we've got about 120 people

比爾：我們大概找到了120個人

who have now taken this giving pledge.

已經做出了這樣的承諾。

The thing that's great is that we get together

很棒的是我們每年都相聚討論，

yearly and talk about, okay,

do you hire staff, what do you give to them?

你需要員工嗎，你給了他們什麽？

We're not trying to homogenize it.

我們並不是嘗試使它們一樣，

I mean, the beauty of philanthropy

慈善事業的美麗，

is this mind-blowing diversity.

在於他讓人震撼的多樣性。

People give to some things.

人們爲一些事捐助，

We look and go, "Wow."

我們去看然後“哇”

But that's great.

但那很好。

That's the role of philanthropy

慈善事業所扮演的角色

is to pick different approaches,

就是選擇不同的處理方式，

including even in one space, like education.

包括甚至在一個領域，比如教育。

We need more experimentation.

我們需要更多的試驗。

But it's been wonderful, meeting those people,

但這是美好的，認識這些人，

sharing their journey to philanthropy,

分享他們到慈善事業中去的過程，

how they involve their kids,

他們如何讓他們的孩子參與，

where they're doing it differently,

他們哪裡做的不同，

and it's been way more successful than we expected.

這件事的成功超出了我們的想像。

Now it looks like it'll just keep growing in size

現在看起來這將在未來幾年中繼續增長。

in the years ahead.

MG: And having people see that other people

美：還有讓人看到其他人

are making change with philanthropy,

以慈善事業來改變，

I mean, these are people who have

我是說，這些人

created their own businesses,

創立了他們自己的企業，

put their own ingenuity behind incredible ideas.

將他們自己的創造力 融入了那些不可思議的想法。

If they put their ideas and their brain

如果他們將他們的大腦和想法

behind philanthropy, they can change the world.

放到慈善事業中去，他們可以改變世界。

And they start to see others doing it, and saying,

而且他們開始看見別人在做這事，於是說：

"Wow, I want to do that with my own money."

”哇，我也希望用我自己的錢做這樣的事。“

To me, that's the piece that's incredible.

對我而言，那就是不可思議的地方。

CA: It seems to me, it's actually really hard

克：在我看來，實際上是很難

for some people to figure out

讓一些人去想出——

even how to remotely spend that much money

甚至如何——怎麽去花那麼多的錢

on something else.

在其他的東西上。

There are probably some billionaires in the room

在座可能有一些億萬富翁

and certainly some successful people.

也肯定有些成功人士。

I'm curious, can you make the pitch?

我很好奇，你能做個說服演說嗎？是什麽？

What's the pitch?

BG: Well, it's the most fulfilling thing

比爾：這是我們做過的最讓人充實的事情。

we've ever done,

and you can't take it with you,

你死後也無法將錢帶走，

and if it's not good for your kids,

而且如果對你的孩子也不好，

let's get together and brainstorm

讓我們一起集思廣益

about what we can be done.

看看我們能做什麽。

The world is a far better place

這個世界相比於過去好很多

because of the philanthropists of the past,

是因為過去的那些慈善家；

and the U.S. tradition here, which is the strongest,

而美國這方面的傳統，是最強大的，

is the envy of the world.

是世界所羡慕的。

And part of the reason I'm so optimistic

我很樂觀，有一部份原因

is because I do think philanthropy

是因為我確實認為慈善事業會成長

is going to grow

and take some of these things

而且會接下一些政府 並不善於處理以及發現的事，

government's not just good at working on and discovering

and shine some light in the right direction.

然後發現並照亮正確的方向。

CA: The world's got this terrible inequality,

克：這個世界有嚴重的不平等，

growing inequality problem

不斷增長的不平等的問題

that seems structural.

看起來是結構性的。

It does seem to me that if more of your peers

在我看來確實如果 有更多像你們一樣的人

took the approach that you two have made,

採取了你們同樣的做法，

it would make a dent

便可以撼動

both in that problem and certainly

這個問題和

in the perception of that problem.

對這個問題的認知。

Is that a fair comment?

這樣評價公平嗎？

BG: Oh yeah. If you take from the most wealthy

比：對的。如果你從最多的財富當中拿出一些

and give to the least wealthy, it's good.

給那些擁有最少財富的人，這是好的。

It tries to balance out, and that's just.

它嘗試去平衡，那是公正的。

MG: But you change systems.

美：但是你改變整個系統。

In the U.S., we're trying to change the education system

在美國，我們嘗試改變教育系統，

so it's just for everybody

對每一個人都公正，

and it works for all students.

並且對所有的學生都有效。

That, to me, really changes

對我而言，這真正地改變

the inequality balance.

這個不平等的平衡。

BG: That's the most important.

比：這是最重要的。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: Well, I really think that most people here

克：好的，我相信大部份坐在這裡的人

and many millions around the world

以及世界上數百萬的人

are just in awe of the trajectory

都很敬畏你們的生活軌跡，

your lives have taken

and the spectacular degree to which

以及你們對未來的巨大改變。

you have shaped the future.

Thank you so much for coming to TED

非常感謝你們來到 TED，

and for sharing with us and for all you do.

感謝分享以及你們所做的一切。

BG: Thank you. MG: Thank you.

比：謝謝。 美：謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

BG: Thank you. MG: Thank you very much.

比：謝謝。 美：非常感謝。

BG: All right, good job. (Applause)

比：幹得漂亮。 （掌聲）