请双击下面的英文字幕来播放视频。
翻译人员: Jiwei Qu
校对人员: Xiaoqiao Xie
00:15
I want you to imagine two couples
in the middle of 1979
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我希望大家设想一下, 两对夫妇
在1979年的年中
00:20
on the exact same day,
at the exact same moment,
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在相同的一天,相同的时刻
00:23
each conceiving a baby, OK?
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每对怀上了一个孩子 -- 好
那么两对夫妇各自都都怀上了一个孩子
00:26
So two couples each conceiving one baby.
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现在,我不希望大家花太多的时间去想象怀孕
00:28
Now I don't want you to spend too
much time imagining the conception,
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因为如果你花太多时间去想它
00:31
because if you do,
you're not going to listen to me,
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你就不会听我说了
00:34
so just imagine that for a moment.
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所以稍微想一下就好了
00:36
And in this scenario,
I want to imagine that, in one case,
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那么在这种情况下
我来设想一下,一个个例是
00:40
the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome,
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携带着Y染色体的精子
00:42
meeting that X chromosome of the egg.
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遇到携带着X染色体的卵子
00:44
And in the other case,
the sperm is carrying an X chromosome,
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另一个是
携带着X染色体的精子
00:48
meeting the X chromosome of the egg.
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遇到携带着X染色体的卵子
00:50
Both are viable; both take off.
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两个都存活下来了,两个都开始发育
我们之后再来看这两对夫妇
00:53
We'll come back to these people later.
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我担任两个角色
00:55
So I wear two hats in most of what I do.
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在我所从事的领域
一个角色是
00:59
As the one hat, I do history of anatomy.
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我做解剖学历史研究
01:02
I'm a historian by training,
and what I study in that case
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我是个史学工作者
我所研究的是
01:06
is the way that people
have dealt with anatomy --
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人类是怎么对待解剖学的——
01:08
meaning human bodies, animal bodies --
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对无论是人类躯体,或是动物躯体——
01:11
how they dealt with bodily fluids,
concepts of bodies;
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他们如何处理体液,抽象的躯体
01:14
how have they thought about bodies.
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他们是如何看待躯体的
01:16
The other hat that I've worn
in my work is as an activist,
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另一个角色是
一名社会活动家
01:20
as a patient advocate --
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作为一个为病人辩护人的角色——
01:22
or, as I sometimes say,
as an impatient advocate --
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或者说,像我有时候说的,作为医生们的病人的辩护人——
01:25
for people who are patients of doctors.
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我是很激进的
01:27
In that case, what I've worked with
is people who have body types
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那样的话,在我工作中
所接触到的是一些
01:31
that challenge social norms.
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挑战着社会规范的人
01:33
So some of what
I've worked on, for example,
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比如,我接触到的一些人
01:35
is people who are conjoined twins --
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是连体婴儿
01:37
two people within one body.
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两个人共用一个身体
01:39
Some of what I've worked on
is people who have dwarfism --
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还有一些是侏儒症患者
他们比一般人要矮小的多
01:42
so people who are much
shorter than typical.
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01:44
And a lot of what I've worked on
is people who have atypical sex --
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另外,许多我接触的人
他们的性别与众不同 --
01:48
so people who don't have the standard male
or the standard female body types.
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即他们没有很标准的男性特征
或者女性特有的身体特征
01:52
And as a general term,
we can use the term "intersex" for this.
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总的来说,这个症状可以被叫做双性人
01:56
Intersex comes
in a lot of different forms.
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双性可以有多种的形式
01:58
I'll just give you a few examples
of the types of ways you can have sex
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我来举几个例子
来说明你可以具有
02:02
that isn't standard for male or female.
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既不是标准的男性特征也不是标准的女性特征的类型
02:04
So in one instance,
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例子之一
02:06
you can have somebody
who has an XY chromosomal basis,
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一个人可以拥有XY染色体
02:09
and that SRY gene on the Y chromosome
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并且,在Y染色体上的SRY基因(雄性性别决定基因)
02:12
tells the proto-gonads,
which we all have in the fetal life,
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刺激我们在胎儿时期都有的原始性腺
使其变成睾丸
02:15
to become testes.
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02:16
So in the fetal life,
those testes are pumping out testosterone.
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因此在胎儿时期,睾丸分泌睾丸激素
但是这个个体缺少受体
02:20
But because this individual
lacks receptors to hear that testosterone,
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来接收睾丸激素
身体不能对睾丸激素做出反应
02:25
the body doesn't react
to the testosterone.
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这是一种叫做睾丸不敏感(睾丸女性化)综合征
02:27
And this is a syndrome called
androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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02:30
So lots of levels of testosterone,
but no reaction to it.
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所以,睾丸激素的量很大,但是不能引起反应
02:33
As a consequence, the body develops
more along the female typical path.
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因此,身体就会朝着
女性化的趋势发展
02:37
When the child is born,
she looks like a girl.
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当婴儿诞生时,她看起来像个女孩儿
她就是女孩儿,并且被当作小姑娘来抚养
02:40
She is a girl, she is raised as a girl.
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大多数情况,直到青春期
02:43
And it's often not until she hits puberty
and she's growing and developing breasts,
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她的胸部开始发育的时候
她却没有女性周期
02:47
but she's not getting her period,
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这时我们才会开始怀疑有什么差错
02:49
that somebody figures
out something's up here.
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于是他们检查发现
02:51
And they do some tests and figure out
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她并没有卵巢和子宫
02:53
that, instead of having
ovaries inside and a uterus,
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实际上,在她身体内有睾丸,并且她携带着Y染色体
02:55
she has testes inside,
and she has a Y chromosome.
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现在,有一个重要问题需要说明的是
02:58
Now what's important to understand
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大家一定认为这个人实际上是个男孩儿
03:00
is you may think of this
person as really being male,
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其实并非如此
03:02
but they're really not.
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03:03
Females, like males,
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女性,和男性一样
03:05
have in our bodies something
called the adrenal glands.
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体内有一个器官叫做肾上腺
它在我们身体的后端
03:08
They're in the back of our body.
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并且肾上腺负责分泌雄性激素
03:10
And the adrenal glands make androgens,
which are a masculinizing hormone.
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即一种雄性荷尔蒙
03:13
Most females like me --
I believe myself to be a typical female --
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像我一样的大多数女性--我相信我自己是个典型的女性--
我其实不太清楚我的染色体的组成
03:16
I don't actually know
my chromosomal make-up,
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但是我想我应该是有典型的女性——
03:18
but I think I'm probably typical --
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大多数像我一样的女性实际上是雄激素敏感的
03:20
most females like me
are actually androgen-sensitive.
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我们分泌雄性激素,并且对它有反应
03:23
We're making androgen,
and we're responding to androgens.
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03:25
The consequence is that somebody like me
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结果是,有的像我一样女性,
03:27
has actually had a brain
exposed to more androgens
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大脑暴露在过多的雄性激素下
比那个出生时有睾丸的女孩
03:31
than the woman born with testes
who has androgen insensitivity syndrome.
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那个雄性激素不敏感综合征的女孩有的雄性激素还多
03:34
So sex is really complicated --
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所以说性别是个非常复杂的东西;并不是说那些双性的人
03:35
it's not just that intersex people
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就处在男性和女性之间——
03:37
are in the middle
of all the sex spectrum --
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在某些方面,他们可以覆盖整个性特征的范围
03:39
in some ways,
they can be all over the place.
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还有一个例子
03:41
Another example:
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几年前,我接到一个十九岁的男孩打来的电话
03:43
a few years ago I got a call
from a man who was 19 years old,
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03:45
who was born a boy, raised a boy,
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他生下来是个男孩,也被当作男孩来养
03:47
had a girlfriend,
had sex with his girlfriend,
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后来有了女朋友,也和女友发生了性关系
03:50
had a life as a guy,
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一直过着男孩的生活
03:52
and had just found out
that he had ovaries and a uterus inside.
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但是最近,他发现自己体内有卵巢和子宫
03:55
What he had was an extreme form
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他所有的是一种很极端的病症
03:57
of a condition called
congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
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叫做类固醇21-羟化酶缺乏症
他携带XX染色体
04:00
He had XX chromosomes,
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并且在子宫内的时候
04:02
and in the womb, his adrenal glands
were in such high gear
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他的肾上腺很活跃
04:05
that it created, essentially,
a masculine hormonal environment.
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从而形成了一个男性荷尔蒙的环境
04:09
And as a consequence,
his genitals were masculinized,
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结果就是,他发育了男性生殖器官
他的大脑接受了
04:12
his brain was subject to the more typical
masculine component of hormones.
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更多的典型的男性荷尔蒙
04:15
And he was born looking like a boy --
nobody suspected anything.
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因此他生下来看起来像个男孩儿--根本没人怀疑
04:18
And it was only when he had
reached the age of 19
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只有当他长到19岁的时候
04:21
that he began to have enough medical
problems from menstruating internally,
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当他开始遇到生理问题的时候
其实是在体内出现月经起
04:25
that doctors figured out that, in fact,
he was female, internally.
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医生发现,实际上他的内部是女性
好,我们再来快速的看一个例子
04:29
OK, so just one more quick example
of a way you can have intersex.
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另一个可能带来两性特征的情况
04:32
Some people who have XX chromosomes
develop what are called ovotestis,
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有XX染色体的一些人
会发育一种叫做卵睾的器官
04:36
which is when you have ovarian tissue
with testicular tissue wrapped around it.
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也就是当卵巢组织
被睾丸组织包裹起来的一种器官
04:40
And we're not exactly sure
why that happens.
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我们还不能确定它的成因
04:42
So sex can come
in lots of different varieties.
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所以说性别可以是很多种形式
04:45
The reason that children
with these kinds of bodies --
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拥有这些身体特征的
孩子们——
不论是侏儒症,或者连体婴儿
04:50
whether it's dwarfism,
or it's conjoined twinning,
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或者是双性型的——
04:53
or it's an intersex type --
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04:54
are often "normalized" by surgeons
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常被外科医生手术纠正的原因
04:56
is not because it actually leaves them
better off in terms of physical health.
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实际上并不是为了
身体健康
05:00
In many cases, people are actually
perfectly healthy.
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因为很多情况下,他们的身体其实都很健康
05:03
The reason they're often subject
to various kinds of surgeries
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他们接受各种外科手术的原因
05:06
is because they threaten
our social categories.
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是因为他们受到我们社会上对人分类的威胁
05:09
Our system has been based
typically on the idea
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或者说社会上已经有一个典型的认识
05:12
that a particular kind of anatomy
comes with a particular identity.
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什么样的身体结构,有什么样的特征
05:15
So we have the concept
that what it means to be a woman
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因此,我们的概念就是作为一个女人
就必须有女性的特性
05:18
is to have a female identity;
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以此类推,一个黑人
05:20
what it means to be a black person
is, allegedly, to have an African anatomy
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就得具有非洲人的身体结构特征
05:24
in terms of your history.
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在你的履历中
05:26
And so we have
this terribly simplistic idea.
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因此我们就有了这种过于简单的认识
当我们面对一个
05:30
And when we're faced with a body
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05:31
that actually presents us
something quite different,
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某些方面是与众不同的身体的时候
05:34
it startles us in terms
of those categorizations.
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那些不能归类的想法让我们感到吃惊
05:37
So we have a lot of very romantic ideas
in our culture about individualism.
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因此我们的文化中有很多天真的想法
是关于个人主义的
05:41
And our nation's really founded on
a very romantic concept of individualism.
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并且我们国家建立在一个非常不实际的个人主义的概念上的
好,你可以想象那多么令人震惊
05:45
You can imagine how startling then it is
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05:47
when you have children who are born
who are two people inside of one body.
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当你的两个孩子
出生的时候是在一个身体中的
05:51
Where I ran into the most heat
from this most recently
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我最近一次遇到这种情况是
05:55
was last year when South African runner,
Caster Semenya,
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去年的时候,非洲田径运动员,卡斯特尔·塞门亚
05:58
had her sex called into question
at the International Games in Berlin.
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在柏林国际比赛中被质疑性别问题
许多记者给我打电话,问我
06:02
I had a lot of journalists
calling me, asking me,
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06:04
"Which is the test they're going to run
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“他们会用哪种检测方法
06:06
that will tell us whether or not
Caster Semenya is male or female?"
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来向大家证明
卡斯特尔·塞门亚是男还是女?”
06:10
And I had to explain to the journalists
there isn't such a test.
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于是我不得不跟他们解释说,根本没有检测的方法
06:13
In fact, we now know
that sex is complicated enough
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事实上,我们现在已经了解
性别是非常复杂的
06:17
that we have to admit:
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我们不得不承认
06:19
Nature doesn't draw the line
for us between male and female,
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大自然根本就没有一个明确的分界线来区分男性或女性
06:22
or between male and intersex
and female and intersex;
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或者男性和双性以及女性和双性
06:25
we actually draw that line on nature.
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这条分界线实际上是我们自己画的
06:28
So what we have is a sort of situation
where the farther our science goes,
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因此我们现在的情况是
科学越发展
我们越得承认
06:33
the more we have to admit to ourselves
that these categories
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这些性别的分类形式
06:36
that we thought of as stable
anatomical categories,
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也就是我们认为很理所当然的身体结构学上的分类
06:38
that mapped very simply
to stable identity categories
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是过于简单地
给特性分了类
06:42
are a lot more fuzzy than we thought.
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实际情况要比我们想象的模糊的多
06:44
And it's not just in terms of sex.
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并且这不仅仅是关于性别的问题
06:46
It's also in terms of race,
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也同样是关于种族的问题
06:48
which turns out to be
vastly more complicated
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这个复杂程度
06:50
than our terminology has allowed.
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远不是我们的学术语言所能形容的
06:52
As we look, we get into all sorts
of uncomfortable areas.
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如我们所见,我们涉及各种各样艰难的领域
06:55
We look, for example, about the fact
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我们来看一个例子,现实情况是
06:57
that we share at least 95 percent
of our DNA with chimpanzees.
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我们用95%的人类的DNA
与大猩猩进行对比
得出的事实是
07:02
What are we to make of the fact
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07:03
that we differ from them
only, really, by a few nucleotides?
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人类和大猩猩的DNA只是在一些核苷酸上有所不同
科技越发展
07:07
And as we get farther
and farther with our science,
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07:09
we get more and more
into a discomforted zone,
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我们越会涉及到让人苦恼的领域
我们必须承认
07:12
where we have to acknowledge
that the simplistic categories we've had
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那些沿用的简单的分类
07:15
are probably overly simplistic.
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是过于简单化了
07:17
So we're seeing this
in all sorts of places in human life.
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正因如此,我们正在审视着
人类生活中的各个领域
07:21
One of the places
we're seeing it, for example,
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其中的一个领域,举个例子
07:23
in our culture,
in the United States today,
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就是我们的文化领域,当今美国的文化领域
07:25
is battles over the beginning
of life and the end of life.
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热议着生命的起源和终结
07:28
We have difficult conversations
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我们有一个艰难的讨论
07:30
about at what point we decide
a body becomes a human,
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关于我们什么时候从一个躯体变成了一个人类
07:33
such that it has a different
right than a fetal life.
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从而有了不同于胎儿的权利
07:36
We have very difficult
conversations nowadays --
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我们当今有一个非常有争议的话题——
07:38
probably not out in the open
as much as within medicine --
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也许在外部不如在医学界内争论的激烈——
07:41
about the question
of when somebody's dead.
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是关于何时认定为人死亡的疑问
过去,人死的时候
07:44
In the past, our ancestors
never had to struggle so much
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我们的祖先从来不会过多的纠结于此
07:46
with this question
of when somebody was dead.
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最多也就是把一个羽毛粘在人的鼻子下
07:48
At most, they'd stick
a feather on somebody's nose,
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如果羽毛动了,旁人就不会把他们埋掉
07:51
and if it twitched,
they didn't bury them yet.
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如果羽毛不动,就会埋了他们
07:53
If it stopped twitching, you bury them.
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1859
但是如今的情况都是
07:55
But today, we have a situation
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07:56
where we want to take
vital organs out of beings
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我们希望把死者的器官
移植到其他人的身体上
07:59
and give them to other beings.
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08:00
And as a consequence,
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结果
08:02
we have to struggle
with this really difficult question
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我们开始纠结在上面所提到的难题中
08:04
about who's dead,
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关于到底死了没有
08:06
and this leads us
to a really difficult situation
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这导致我们进入一个很困难的情况
08:08
where we don't have such simple
categories as we've had before.
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这个情况没有之前简单的分类了
08:11
Now you might think that all this
breaking-down of categories
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3111
现在你也许会想,所有的这些正在崩溃的分类
08:14
would make somebody like me really happy.
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1986
也许会让像我这样的人感到高兴
08:16
I'm a political progressive,
I defend people with unusual bodies,
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3052
我是一个在政治观点上不断进步的人,我维护那些身体异于常人的人
但是我必须承认,这种改变让我感到不安
08:20
but I have to admit to you
that it makes me nervous.
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认识到这些分类制度
08:22
Understanding that these categories
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比我们想象的还不稳定,使我感到紧张
08:24
are really much more unstable
than we thought makes me tense.
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3093
同时,我的紧张来自于
08:27
It makes me tense from the point of view
of thinking about democracy.
179
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民主的观点
08:30
So in order to tell you
about that tension,
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2156
所以,为了告诉大家这种紧张的程度
08:32
I have to first admit to you
a huge fan of the Founding Fathers.
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我首先要承认,我是国父们的忠实粉丝
08:35
I know they were racists,
I know they were sexist,
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我知道他们是种族主义者,他们是男性至上主义者
但是他们非常伟大
08:38
but they were great.
183
518534
1173
08:39
I mean, they were so brave and so bold
and so radical in what they did,
184
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我的意思是,他们是如此的英勇、无畏
并且积极的从事他们的事业
08:44
that I find myself watching that cheesy
musical "1776" every few years,
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我自己每隔几年就要重新去欣赏那个挺土的音乐剧“1776”(美国建国史的音乐剧)
并不是因为音乐好,音乐是完全可以被忽略的
08:49
and it's not because of the music,
which is totally forgettable.
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3004
是因为1776年围绕着
08:52
It's because of what happened in 1776
with the Founding Fathers.
187
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3338
建国者们发生的事情
08:55
The Founding Fathers were,
for my point of view,
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535753
2274
建国者们,我认为他们是
最早的解剖学活动家
08:58
the original anatomical activists,
189
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2052
这是我爱他们的原因
09:00
and this is why.
190
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1605
09:01
What they rejected
was an anatomical concept
191
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3275
他们反对了一个解剖学的概念
并且用另一个取而代之
09:05
and replaced it with another one
192
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1536
09:06
that was radical and beautiful
and held us for 200 years.
193
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3329
这个新进的美好的概念保持了200年
09:09
So as you all recall,
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1722
大家回忆一下
09:11
what our Founding Fathers were
rejecting was a concept of monarchy,
195
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3404
我们的建国者们反对的是一个君主制度的概念
并且这个君主制是基于
09:15
and the monarchy was basically based
on a very simplistic concept of anatomy.
196
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3638
过于简单化的解剖学概念上的
09:18
The monarchs of the old world
didn't have a concept of DNA,
197
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3639
旧体制下的帝王们
没有DNA的概念
09:22
but they did have a concept of birthright.
198
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2133
但是他们遵从的是“出身”的理念
09:24
They had a concept of blue blood.
199
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1672
他们有贵族的概念
09:26
They had the idea that the people
who would be in political power
200
566320
3183
他们认为,身在政治权力下的人
09:29
should be in political power
because of the blood being passed down
201
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3177
就应该掌握权力
是因为贵族血统要
09:32
from grandfather to father
to son and so forth.
202
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3674
从祖父到父亲到儿子一代代传承
建国者们反对这种观点
09:37
The Founding Fathers rejected that idea,
203
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2368
他们用一种新的解剖上的概念取而代之
09:39
and they replaced it
with a new anatomical concept,
204
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2651
那种概念就是
09:42
and that concept
was "all men are created equal."
205
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3833
人人平等
09:45
They leveled that playing field
and decided the anatomy that mattered
206
585978
3363
他们消除了等级观念
并且确定解剖学的重要性
09:49
was the commonality of anatomy,
not the difference in anatomy,
207
589365
4414
在于全民平等
而不是出身的贵贱
09:53
and that was a really radical thing to do.
208
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2544
在当时那确实是一个很激进的改革
09:56
Now they were doing it in part
209
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1452
某种程度上,这种改革现在仍然在进行
09:58
because they were part
of an Enlightenment system
210
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2292
因为他们是启蒙运动系统的一部分
10:00
where two things were growing up together.
211
600612
2009
两件事情是共同发展的
10:02
And that was democracy growing up,
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2268
民主制度在当时正在形成
10:04
but it was also science
growing up at the same time.
213
604937
3065
但同时科技也在发展
非常明显的是,如果你注意一下建国者的历史
10:08
And it's really clear, if you look
at the history of the Founding Fathers,
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3479
他们中的许多人都对科学很感兴趣
10:11
a lot of them were very
interested in science,
215
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2286
并且他们都对自然主义世界这个概念
10:13
and they were interested
in the concept of a naturalistic world.
216
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3028
很感兴趣
他们摒弃超自然的说法
10:16
They were moving away
from supernatural explanations,
217
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2486
他们排斥那些关于超自然力量的说法
10:19
and they were rejecting things
like a supernatural concept of power,
218
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3237
因为超自然力量的概念被传播
10:22
where it transmitted because
of a very vague concept of birthright.
219
622662
4055
是基于非常模糊的身世的理念
10:26
They were moving
towards a naturalistic concept.
220
626741
2282
他们倡导自然主义的概念
如果你观察会发现,例如在独立宣言中
10:29
And if you look, for example,
in the Declaration of Independence,
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3055
他们提及到自然和自然之神
10:32
they talk about nature and nature's God.
222
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2706
10:34
They don't talk about God
and God's nature.
223
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2189
他们没有提到上帝和上帝的自然
他们提到自然的力量
10:37
They're talking about the power of nature
to tell us who we are.
224
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3903
来解释我们是谁
10:40
So as part of that,
they were coming to us with a concept
225
640996
3240
因此作为其中的一部分
他们为我们带来一个概念
10:44
that was about anatomical commonality.
226
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2710
那就是人人生来平等
10:46
And in doing so, they were really
setting up in a beautiful way
227
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3129
为此 他们确实为将来的民权运动
铺垫了一个很美好的道路
10:50
the Civil Rights Movement of the future.
228
650147
1913
他们想不到将来会怎样,但是他们为我们奠定了基础,这是非常伟大的
10:52
They didn't think of it that way,
but they did it for us, and it was great.
229
652084
3541
那么数年后发生了什么呢?
10:55
So what happened years afterwards?
230
655649
1643
例如在女性身上都发生了什么
10:57
What happened was women, for example,
who wanted the right to vote,
231
657316
3442
她们渴望投票的权利
11:00
took the Founding Fathers' concept
of anatomical commonality
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3362
按照建国者的概念
人人平等要远重要于
11:04
being more important
than anatomical difference
233
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2207
人的出身
11:06
and said, "The fact that we have
a uterus and ovaries
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2534
她们说:“我们有子宫和卵巢是事实
11:08
is not significant enough
in terms of a difference
235
668957
2763
这些不同完全不足以
11:11
to mean that we shouldn't
have the right to vote,
236
671744
2289
意味着我们没有投票权
没有充分的公民权利
11:14
the right to full citizenship,
the right to own property, etc."
237
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3682
没有私人财产权等等”
11:17
And women successfully argued that.
238
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2052
女性的主张获得了成效
11:19
Next came the successful
Civil Rights Movement,
239
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2397
接下来便是成功的民权运动
11:22
where we found people like Sojourner Truth
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运动中出现了像索杰纳·特鲁思这样的人
11:24
talking about, "Ain't I a woman?"
241
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2269
她的名言“我就不是女人吗?”
11:26
We find men on the marching lines
of the Civil Rights Movement
242
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3945
我们知道男人
曾经在民权运动的发展路线上
11:30
saying, "I am a man."
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有句名言“我是个男人”
11:32
Again, people of color
appealing to a commonality of anatomy
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4397
此外,有色人群
呼吁人人平等而不应种族歧视
11:36
over a difference of anatomy,
again, successfully.
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2690
再者,
我们看到同样的成功案例发生在伤残人士的权利运动中
11:39
We see the same thing
with the disability rights movement.
246
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3037
11:42
The problem is, of course,
247
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2158
问题是,当然
11:44
that, as we begin to look
at all that commonality,
248
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2378
当我们开始去审视所有的公民
我们不得不开始质疑
11:47
we have to begin to question
why we maintain certain divisions.
249
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3425
为什么我们去维护一个固定的界限
11:50
Mind you, I want to maintain
some divisions,
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2729
现在,需要提醒大家的是,我希望去保持一些界限
身体结构上的,在我们的文化范围被内
11:53
anatomically, in our culture.
251
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1667
举个例子,我不希望
11:55
For example, I don't want to give a fish
the same rights as a human.
252
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3680
给予鱼和人类一样的权利
11:58
I don't want to say
we give up entirely on anatomy.
253
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2585
我不希望我们放弃一切在解剖学上的区分界限
我不希望,一个五岁的孩子
12:01
I don't want to say a five-year-old
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1667
可以被允许有性行为或者说允许结婚
12:03
should be allowed to consent
to sex or consent to marry.
255
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2631
12:05
So there are some anatomical divisions
256
725688
1967
所以说,有一些在解剖学上的界限
12:07
that make sense to me
and that I think we should retain.
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3309
对我们来说是有意义的,我想那些应该被保留
但是,艰巨的任务是试着去找出哪些是应该保留的
12:11
But the challenge is trying
to figure out which ones they are
258
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2893
12:13
and why do we retain them,
and do they have meaning.
259
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2611
为什么我们要保留它们,它们有什么意义
12:16
So let's go back to those two beings
conceived at the beginning of this talk.
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3790
所以,让我们回到刚才说到的那两人
就是演讲一开始所虚构的那两个人
12:20
We have two beings, both conceived
261
740378
1858
我们有两对夫妇
12:22
in the middle of 1979
on the exact same day.
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3491
都在1979年年中的同一天怀孕了
12:25
Let's imagine one of them, Mary,
is born three months prematurely,
263
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3750
让我们设想一下,玛丽
提前三个月出生了
12:29
so she's born on June 1, 1980.
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2502
因此她出生于1980年6月1日
亨利,相反的,足月出生
12:32
Henry, by contrast, is born at term,
so he's born on March 1, 1980.
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4173
他出生于1980年3月1日
12:36
Simply by virtue of the fact
266
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1792
仅仅是由于
12:38
that Mary was born
prematurely three months,
267
758662
2458
玛丽早出生了三个月这个事实
她获得各种权利的时间
12:41
she comes into all sorts of rights
three months earlier than Henry does --
268
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4242
要比亨利早三个月
12:45
the right to consent to sex,
the right to vote, the right to drink.
269
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4215
允许有性行为的权利
选举的权利,喝酒的权利
12:49
Henry has to wait for all of that,
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1633
亨利就不得不等待
12:51
not because he's actually
any different in age, biologically,
271
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3014
他的生理学年龄没有任何不同
12:54
except in terms of when he was born.
272
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2265
只是因为他出生的时间不同
我们还发现其他一些离奇的权利问题
12:57
We find other kinds of weirdness
in terms of what their rights are.
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777249
3160
亨利,由于被假定为男性--
13:00
Henry, by virtue of being
assumed to be male --
274
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2193
13:02
although I haven't told you
that he's the XY one --
275
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2391
尽管我没有告诉过大家他是XY型染色体——
由于被假定为男性
13:05
by virtue of being assumed to be male
is now liable to be drafted,
276
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4171
所以现在要应征入伍
13:09
which Mary does not need to worry about.
277
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1940
玛丽就不需要去担心这些
13:11
Mary, meanwhile, cannot in all the states
have the same right
278
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3773
与此同时,玛丽不能在所有的州
像亨利一样享受同样权利
13:15
that Henry has in all the states,
279
795021
1600
也就是,结婚的权利
13:16
namely, the right to marry.
280
796645
1482
亨利可以在任何一个州结婚
13:18
Henry can marry, in every state, a woman,
281
798151
2764
13:20
but Mary can only marry today
in a few states, a woman.
282
800939
3008
但是玛丽如今只能在少数几个州娶一位女性
13:24
So we have these anatomical
categories that persist,
283
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2893
因此我们所坚持的一些结构上的生物分类
13:27
that are in many ways
problematic and questionable.
284
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3749
它们在很多方面是有问题并且需要质疑的
对我来说,问题就变成了:
13:31
And the question to me becomes:
285
811169
1721
13:32
What do we do, as our science
gets to be so good in looking at anatomy,
286
812914
5988
我们要做什么
当我们的科学在解剖学上
如此先进的时候
13:38
that we reach the point
where we have to admit
287
818926
2570
我们已经到了不得不承认
13:41
that a democracy
that's been based on anatomy
288
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2877
基于解剖学上的人的民主
13:44
might start falling apart?
289
824421
1432
也许正在崩溃的时候
我不想对科学失去希望
13:47
I don't want to give up the science,
but at the same time,
290
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2724
但是同时,有的时候隐约觉得
13:49
it feels sometimes like the science
is coming out from under us.
291
829888
3148
科学的发展是受到我们影响的
因此我们将走向何方?
13:53
So where do we go?
292
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1176
看起来我们的社会
13:55
It seems like what happens in our culture
is a sort of pragmatic attitude:
293
835089
4081
有着一种实用主义的态度:
“好,我必须在某处画一条界限,
13:59
"We have to draw the line somewhere,
so we will draw the line somewhere."
294
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3438
那么我就在那画一条界限”
14:02
But a lot of people get stuck
in a very strange position.
295
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2686
但是很多人会因此陷在一个非常尴尬的位置
举个例子
14:05
So for example, Texas has at one point
decided that what it means to marry a man
296
845366
4870
德克萨斯州有一个决定
嫁给一个男人
14:10
is to mean that you don't have
a Y chromosome,
297
850260
2395
意味着你没有Y染色体
14:12
and what it means to marry a woman
means you have a Y chromosome.
298
852679
3070
同时如果你娶一个女人意味着你有Y染色体
现实中,他们实际上不会去检测染色体
14:15
In practice they don't test people
for their chromosomes.
299
855773
2722
但是这也非常奇怪
14:18
But this is also very bizarre,
300
858519
1483
因为我一开始告诉了大家那个关于
14:20
because of the story I told you
at the beginning
301
860026
2320
雄激素不敏感综合征的故事
14:22
about androgen insensitivity syndrome.
302
862370
1810
如有我们看一下现代民主制度的奠基人之一
14:24
If we look at one of the Founding Fathers
of modern democracy,
303
864204
3532
马丁·路德·金 博士
14:27
Dr. Martin Luther King,
304
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1180
14:28
he offers us something of a solution
in his "I have a dream" speech.
305
868964
3203
在他的“我有一个梦想”的演讲中,为我们提供了一个解决方法
他认为我们“不应该根据一个人的肤色
14:32
He says we should judge people
"based not on the color of their skin,
306
872191
3267
而是应该根据他的品格”去评判一个人
14:35
but on the content of their character,"
307
875482
1871
摒弃人种差异
14:37
moving beyond anatomy.
308
877377
1522
14:38
And I want to say, "Yeah, that sounds
like a really good idea."
309
878923
2979
我想说“是的,那听起来确实是个好方法”
14:41
But in practice, how do you do it?
310
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1656
但实际操作中,你怎么去做?
14:43
How do you judge people based
on the content of character?
311
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2950
你如何根据他的品德去评判他?
我还想指出
14:47
I also want to point out
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14:48
that I'm not sure that is how we should
distribute rights in terms of humans,
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我不太确定我们应该如何分配人类的权利
因为,我不得不承认,有些黄金猎犬
14:52
because, I have to admit, that there
are some golden retrievers I know
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比起我知道的一些人似乎更应该
14:55
that are probably more deserving of social
services than some humans I know.
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3577
得到社会的帮助
我还想说,我知道有些拉布拉多似乎
14:59
I also want to say there are probably
also some yellow Labradors that I know
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899032
3595
比有些40岁左右的人在性关系问题上
15:02
that are more capable of informed,
intelligent, mature decisions
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3023
更慎重,更聪明,更能作出成熟的决定
15:05
about sexual relations
than some 40-year-olds that I know.
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2722
因此我们如何去衡量
15:08
So how do we operationalize
the question of content of character?
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908444
4178
品德的问题?
15:12
It turns out to be really difficult.
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1925
结果证明是非常困难的
15:14
And part of me also wonders,
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1481
我还想知道
15:16
what if content of character
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1872
如果品德的好坏
15:17
turns out to be something
that's scannable in the future --
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3240
在未来可以被扫描出来——
15:21
able to be seen with an fMRI?
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921981
2309
也许可以用核磁共振成像看见?
我们真的愿意走到那一步吗?
15:24
Do we really want to go there?
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1611
我不确定我们将走向何方
15:26
I'm not sure where we go.
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1336
15:27
What I do know is that it seems
to be really important
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927720
2551
我知道的是应该思考一下
美国所引领的民主存在的问题
15:30
to think about the idea
of the United States being in the lead
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930295
2943
看起来是非常重要的
15:33
of thinking about this issue of democracy.
329
933262
2004
我们在争取民主的问题上已经做得非常好了
15:35
We've done a really good job
struggling with democracy,
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2711
我认为今后同样会做的更好
15:38
and I think we would do
a good job in the future.
331
938025
2334
我们情况和伊朗不同,比如
15:40
We don't have a situation
that Iran has, for example,
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940383
2603
一个男人在性方面对其他男人有吸引力
15:43
where a man who's sexually
attracted to other men
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2293
那么他是可以被杀的
15:45
is liable to be murdered,
334
945327
1197
15:46
unless he's willing
to submit to a sex change,
335
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2171
除非他愿意改变自己的性取向
15:48
in which case he's allowed to live.
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948743
1887
那么他将可以活下来
我们没有那样的情况
15:51
We don't have that kind of situation.
337
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1791
15:52
I'm glad to say we don't have
the kind of situation with --
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952983
3299
我非常高兴的说我们没有那样的情况--
对一位外科医生说,那是在数年之前
15:56
a surgeon I talked to a few years ago
339
956306
1983
他带来一个连体婴儿
15:58
who had brought over a set
of conjoined twins
340
958313
2436
16:00
in order to separate them,
partly to make a name for himself.
341
960773
2911
希望可以帮助他们分离,某种程度上也想让自己出名
但是当我跟他通电话时
16:03
But when I was on the phone with him,
asking why he'll do this surgery --
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963708
3450
问他为什么希望做这个手术——
因为这是个危险性很高的手术——
16:07
this was a very high-risk surgery --
his answer was that, in this other nation,
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3726
他答道,在这个国家
16:10
these children were going to be treated
very badly, and so he had to do this.
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3633
这样的孩子将会被残忍的对待,因此他必须要帮助他们这么做
我对他的回答是,“恩,你为他们考虑过政治避难
16:14
My response to him was, "Well,
have you considered political asylum
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974589
3152
而不是进行手术吗?”
16:17
instead of a separation surgery?"
346
977765
1607
16:19
The United States has offered
tremendous possibility
347
979396
2449
美国为像这样的孩子保持他们自己的特征
16:21
for allowing people
to be the way they are,
348
981869
2367
提供了很大的可能
16:24
without having them have
to be changed for the sake of the state.
349
984260
3698
他们从不用为了国家改变自己的身体
16:27
So I think we have to be in the lead.
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2178
因此我认为我们应该要引领这种思想
好,说到这里,我想提醒大家
16:30
Well, just to close,
I want to suggest to you
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990184
2457
16:32
that I've been talking
a lot about the Fathers.
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992665
2531
我已经谈论了很多前人的事情
我还想考虑一下
16:35
And I want to think
about the possibilities
353
995220
2016
16:37
of what democracy might look like,
or might have looked like,
354
997260
2905
民主会是什么样子,或者是已经是什么样子的可能性
如果我们可以让更多的母亲参与进来
16:40
if we had more involved the mothers.
355
1000189
1873
16:42
And I want to say something
a little bit radical for a feminist,
356
1002645
3038
我还想说对女权主义者有点激进的话
16:45
and that is that I think that there may be
different kinds of insights
357
1005707
3845
那就是我认为
不同的人
16:49
that can come from different
kinds of anatomies,
358
1009576
2249
也许可以带来不同的的观察视角
16:51
particularly when we have
people thinking in groups.
359
1011849
2622
特别是当我们习惯于群体性思维的时候
16:54
For years, because
I've been interested in intersex,
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1014495
2507
我已经对双性人感兴趣很多年了
也对性别差异也进行了多年的研究
16:57
I've also been interested
in sex-difference research.
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1017026
2477
我十分感兴趣的事情之一是
16:59
And one of the things
that I've been interested in
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1019527
2353
去观察世界范围内男性与女性之间
17:01
is looking at the differences
between males and females
363
1021904
2602
在思考问题和解决问题上的差别
17:04
in terms of the way they think
and operate in the world.
364
1024530
2639
我们从跨文化研究中得知
17:07
And what we know
from cross-cultural studies
365
1027193
2073
17:09
is that females, on average --
366
1029290
1840
女性,平均的看——
17:11
not everyone, but on average --
367
1031154
2082
当然不是每个人,而是平均的看——
17:13
are more inclined to be very attentive
to complex social relations
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1033260
4891
更倾向于留意
复杂的社会关系
同时更加关心、同情
17:18
and to taking care of people
369
1038175
1578
17:19
who are, basically,
vulnerable within the group.
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1039777
2276
人群中的弱势群体
17:22
And so if we think about that,
371
1042779
2207
那么如果我们这么认为
我们发现一个有趣的情况
17:25
we have an interesting situation in hands.
372
1045010
2001
数年前,当我读研究生的时候
17:27
Years ago, when I was in graduate school,
373
1047035
1966
我的一位指导教授知道我对女权运动很感兴趣——
17:29
one of my graduate advisors
who knew I was interested in feminism --
374
1049025
3197
我自认是女权主义者,一直是——
17:32
I considered myself
a feminist, as I still do,
375
1052246
2236
他问了我一个很怪的问题
17:34
asked a really strange question.
376
1054506
1549
他说:“告诉我女权主义女性化在哪里”
17:36
He said, "Tell me what's feminine
about feminism."
377
1056079
2909
我想“恩……这是我听过的最让我哑口无言的问题
17:39
And I thought, "Well, that's the dumbest
question I've ever heard.
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1059012
3171
女权主义是所有消除陈腐性别观念的一切活动的统称,
17:42
Feminism is all about undoing
stereotypes about gender,
379
1062207
2574
因此,女权主义不存在女性化”
17:44
so there's nothing
feminine about feminism."
380
1064805
2062
17:46
But the more I thought about his question,
381
1066891
2025
但是,进一步解读这个问题,
17:48
the more I thought there might be
something feminine about feminism.
382
1068940
3218
我想的更多的是,也许女权主义存在着一些女性化
也就是说,也许有一些,总的说来
17:52
That is to say, there might be
something, on average,
383
1072182
2709
17:54
different about female
brains from male brains
384
1074915
2872
女性的思维不同于男性的部分
17:57
that makes us more attentive
to deeply complex social relationships,
385
1077811
5064
使得我们更加富有警惕性
对于复杂的社会关系
18:02
and more attentive
to taking care of the vulnerable.
386
1082899
2833
并且更加注意关心那些弱势群体
18:05
So whereas the Fathers
were extremely attentive
387
1085756
2503
但是前人们细心的
18:08
to figuring out how to protect
individuals from the state,
388
1088283
3811
指出如何保护个人不受国家的影响
如果我们在这个概念中注入如更多的母性
18:12
it's possible that if we injected
more mothers into this concept,
389
1092118
3845
是可能的
18:15
what we would have is more of a concept
of not just how to protect,
390
1095987
3606
我们将拥有的要远多于一个概念
不仅仅是如何保护
18:19
but how to care for each other.
391
1099617
2320
而是如何照顾彼此
18:21
And maybe that's where
we need to go in the future,
392
1101961
2573
也许这就是我们未来要走的路
18:24
when we take democracy beyond anatomy,
393
1104558
2207
当我们抛开人种的分别来讲民主——
18:26
is to think less about the individual body
in terms of the identity,
394
1106789
3535
也就是较少的考虑到人的个体
关于人的身份特性,
18:30
and think more about those relationships.
395
1110348
2350
而是更多的考虑人们之间的关系
18:32
So that as we the people
try to create a more perfect union,
396
1112722
3465
因此,当人们试图创造一个更加美好的联合体的时候
我们需要考虑的是我们为他人都做了什么
18:36
we're thinking about what we do
for each other.
397
1116211
2893
谢谢
18:39
Thank you.
398
1119128
1151
18:40
(Applause)
399
1120303
2774
(掌声)
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