Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Mile Živković

This year, Germany is celebrating

Ove godine, Nemačka slavi

the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution

25. godišnjicu mirne revolucije

in East Germany.

u Istočnoj Nemačkoj.

In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,

Godine 1989, komunistički režim je oboren,

the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,

pao je Berlinski zid i godinu dana kasnije

the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,

Nemačka Demokratska Republika, NDR,

in the East was unified

na istoku, ujedinjena je

with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West

sa Saveznom Republikom Nemačkom na zapadu

to found today's Germany.

kako bi bila osnovana današnja Nemačka.

Among many other things, Germany inherited

Između ostalog, Nemačka je nasledila

the archives of the East German secret police,

arhivu istočnonemačke tajne policije,

known as the Stasi.

poznate kao Štazi.

Only two years after its dissolution,

Samo dve godine nakon raspuštanja,

its documents were opened to the public,

njena dokumenta su postala dostupna javnosti

and historians such as me started

i istoričari, poput mene, počeli su

to study these documents

da izučavaju ova dokumenta,

to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state

kako bi naučili više o tome kako je državni nadzor NDR-a

functioned.

funkcionisao.

Perhaps you have watched the movie

Možda ste gledali film

"The Lives of Others."

"Životi drugih".

This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,

Zbog ovog filma Štazi je postala poznata u celom svetu

and as we live in an age where words

i, kako živimo u dobu u kome se reči,

such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"

poput "nadzora" ili "prisluškivanja"

are on the front pages of newspapers,

nalaze na naslovnim stranama novina,

I would like to speak about how the Stasi

želeo bih da govorim o tome kako je Štazi

really worked.

uistinu funkcionisala.

At the beginning, let's have a short look

Prvo, hajde da se na kratko osvrnemo

at the history of the Stasi,

na istoriju Štazija,

because it's really important for understanding

jer je ona izuzetno važna za razumevanje

its self-conception.

samog pojma.

Its origins are located in Russia.

Njeno poreklo je u Rusiji.

In 1917, the Russian Communists founded

Godine 1917, ruski komunisti su osnovali

the Emergency Commission for Combating

Vanrednu komisiju za borbu protiv

Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,

kontrarevolucije i sabotaže,

shortly Cheka.

skraćeno Če-Ka.

It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.

Njen vođa je bio Feliks Džeržinski.

The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists

Če-Ka je bila instrument komunista

to establish their regime by terrorizing the population

pomoću koga su učvrstili svoj režim, terorišući narod

and executing their enemies.

i ubijajući neprijatelje.

It evolved later into the well-known KGB.

Kasnije se razvila u dobro poznatu KGB.

The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.

Če-Ka je bila uzor Štazijevim oficirima.

They called themselves Chekists,

Zvali su sebe Čekistima,

and even the emblem was very similar,

a čak im je i grb bio veoma sličan,

as you can see here.

kao što možete da vidite ovde.

In fact, the secret police of Russia

Zapravo, Ruska tajna policija

was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.

je bila tvorac i instruktor Štazija.

When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,

Kada je Crvena armija okupirala Istočnu Nemačku 1945,

it immediately expanded there,

odmah su počeli da se šire tu

and soon it started to train the German Communists

i ubrzo su počeli da podučavaju nemačke komuniste

to build up their own secret police.

kako da osnuju sopstvenu tajnu policiju.

By the way, in this hall where we are now,

Usput, u ovoj sali, u kojoj smo sad,

the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.

osnovana je vladajuća partija NDR-a 1946.

Five years later, the Stasi was established,

Pet godina kasnije, osnovana je Štazi

and step by step, the dirty job of oppression

i, korak po korak, prljavi posao ugnjetavanja

was handed over to it.

prepušten je njima.

For instance, the central jail

Na primer, centralni zatvor

for political prisoners,

za političke zatvorenike,

which was established by the Russians,

koji su osnovali Rusi,

was taken over by the Stasi

preuzela je Štazi

and used until the end of Communism.

i koristila ga je do pada komunizma.

You see it here.

Vidite ga ovde.

At the beginning, every important step

Na početku je svaki važan korak

took place under the attendance of the Russians.

nadgledan od strane Rusa.

But the Germans are known to be very effective,

Ali Nemci su poznati po svojoj efikasnosti,

so the Stasi grew very quickly,

pa je Štazi rasla veoma brzo

and already in 1953, it had more employees

i već je 1953. imala više zaposlenih

than the Gestapo had,

nego što je imala Gestapo,

the secret police of Nazi Germany.

tajna policija nacističke Nemačke.

The number doubled in each decade.

Svake decenije broj se udvostručavao.

In 1989, more than 90,000 employees

Godine 1989, više od 90,000 zaposlenih

worked for the Stasi.

je radilo za Štazi.

This meant that one employee

Ovo je značilo da je jedan zaposleni

was responsible for 180 inhabitants,

bio odgovoran za 180 stanovnika,

which was really unique in the world.

što je zaista bilo jedinstveno u svetu.

At the top of this tremendous apparatus,

Na vrhu ovog ogromnog aparata,

there was one man, Erich Mielke.

bio je jedan čovek, Erih Melke.

He ruled the Ministry of State Security

Vladao je Ministarstvom za državnu bezbednost

for more than 30 years.

više od 30 godina.

He was a scrupulous functionary —

Bio je bezobziran funkcioner -

in his past, he killed two policemen

u prošlosti je ubio dva policajca,

not far away from here —

nedaleko odavde -

who in fact personalized the Stasi.

on je zapravo bio oličenje Štazija.

But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?

Ali šta je bilo tako izuzetno kad je Štazi u pitanju?

Foremost, it was its enormous power,

Iznad svega, bila je to njena ogromna moć,

because it united different functions

jer je ujedinjavala različite funkcije

in one organization.

unutar jedne organizacije.

First of all, the Stasi

Pod jedan, Štazi

was an intelligence service.

je bila obaveštajna služba.

It used all the imaginable instruments

Koristila je sve moguće instrumente

for getting information secretly,

da bi tajno stigla do informacija,

such as informers, or tapping phones,

poput doušnika, prisluškivanja telefona,

as you can see it on the picture here.

kao što možete da vidite na ovoj fotografiji.

And it was not only active in East Germany,

I nije bila aktivna samo u Istočnoj Nemačkoj,

but all over the world.

već po celom svetu.

Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.

Pod dva, Štazi je bila tajna policija.

It could stop people on the street

Mogli su da zaustavljaju ljude na ulici

and arrest them in its own prisons.

i da ih zatvaraju u sopstvene zatvore.

Thirdly, the Stasi worked

I pod tri, Štazi je radila

as a kind of public prosecutor.

poput neke vrste javnog tužioca.

It had the right to open preliminary investigations

Imala je ovlašćenje da otvori preliminarnu istragu

and to interrogate people officially.

i da zvanično saslušava ljude.

Last but not least,

I na kraju, ali ne najmanje važno,

the Stasi had its own armed forces.

Štazi je imala sopstvene oružane snage.

More than 11,000 soldiers were serving

Više od 11,000 vojnika je služilo

in its so-called Guards Regiment.

u njenom, takozvanom, oružanom puku.

It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.

Osnovana je sa ciljem da guši proteste i pobune.

Due to this concentration of power,

Zahvaljujući ovakvoj koncentraciji moći,

the Stasi was called a state in the state.

Štazi je nazivana državom u državi.

But let's look in more and more detail

Ali pogledajmo što detaljnije

at the tools of the Stasi.

oruđa Štazija.

Please keep in mind that at that time

Molim vas da imate na umu da tada

the web and smartphones were not yet invented.

internet i pametni telefoni nisu još bili izumljeni.

Of course, the Stasi used all kinds

Naravno, Štazi je koristila sve moguće

of technical instruments to survey people.

tehničke instrumente da nadgleda ljude.

Telephones were wiretapped,

Telefoni su prisluškivani,

including the phone of the German chancellor in the West,

uključujući i telefon kancelara Zapadne Nemačke,

and often also the apartments.

a često su i stanovi prisluškivani.

Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened

Svakoga dana 90,000 pisama su otvarale

by these machines.

ove mašine.

The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people

Štazi je takođe pratila desetine hiljada ljudi,

using specially trained agents and secret cameras

koristeći specijalno obučene agente i tajne kamere,

to document every step one took.

kako bi zabeležili svaki korak koji neko napravi.

In this picture, you can see me

Na ovoj slici vidite mene,

as a young man just in front of this building

kao mladića, baš ispred ove zgrade

where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.

u kojoj smo sad, fotografisao me je agent Štazija.

The Stasi even collected the smell of people.

Štazi je čak sakupljala ljudske mirise.

It stored samples of it in closed jars

Skladištili su uzorke u zatvorenim teglama,

which were found after the peaceful revolution.

koje su otkrivene nakon mirne revolucije.

For all these tasks, highly specialized departments

Za sve ove zadatke, bili su zaduženi

were responsible.

visoko specijalizovani odseci.

The one which was tapping phone calls

Odsek za prisluškivanje telefona

was completely separated

bio je potpuno odvojen

from the one which controlled the letters,

od odseka koji je proveravao pisma,

for good reasons,

s dobrim razlogom,

because if one agent quit the Stasi,

jer ukoliko bi agent napustio Štazi,

his knowledge was very small.

njegovo znanje je bilo veoma malo.

Contrast that with Snowden, for example.

Nasuprot Snoudenu, na primer.

But the vertical specialization was also important

Ali vertikalna specijalizacija je takođe bila važna

to prevent all kinds of empathy

za sprečavanje bilo kog oblika empatije

with the object of observation.

s posmatranim objektom.

The agent who shadowed me

Agent koji me je pratio

didn't know who I was

nije znao ko sam ja

or why I was surveyed.

ili zašto sam praćen.

In fact, I smuggled forbidden books

Krijumčario sam zabranjene knjige

from West to East Germany.

iz Zapadne u Istočnu Nemačku.

But what was even more typical for the Stasi

Ali ono što je bilo najkarakterističnije za Štazi,

was the use of human intelligence,

bila je upotreba ljudskih obaveštajaca,

people who reported secretly to the Stasi.

ljudi koji su tajno izveštavali Štaziju.

For the Minister of State Security,

Za ministra Državne bezbednosti,

these so-called unofficial employees

ovi, takozvani nezvanični službenici,

were the most important tools.

su bili najvažnije oruđe.

From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people

Od 1975. pa na dalje, skoro 200,000 ljudi

collaborated constantly with the Stasi,

je bilo u stalnoj saradnji sa Štazijem,

more than one percent of the population.

više od jednog procenta populacije.

And in a way, the minister was right,

I, na neki način, ministar je bio u pravu

because technical instruments

jer tehnički instrumenti

can only register what people are doing,

mogu jedino da registruju šta ljudi rade,

but agents and spies can also report

ali agenti i špijuni mogu takođe da zabeleže

what people are planning to do

šta ljudi planiraju da urade

and what they are thinking.

i o čemu razmišljaju.

Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.

Iz tog razloga je Štazi regrutovala toliko obaveštajaca.

The system of how to get them

Sistem njihovog pronalaženja

and how to educate them, as it was called,

i edukacije, kako je to nazivano,

was very sophisticated.

bio je veoma prefinjen.

The Stasi had its own university,

Štazi je imala sopstveni univerzitet,

not far away from here,

nedaleko odavde,

where the methods were explored

gde su ispitivali metode

and taught to the officers.

i podučavali tome oficire.

This guideline gave a detailed description

Ovaj vodič je pružao detaljan opis

of every step you have to take

svakog koraka koji ste morali da napravite,

if you want to convince human beings

ako ste želeli da ubedite ljudska bića

to betray their fellow citizens.

da izdaju svoju sabraću.

Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured

Ponekad čujemo da su doušnici primoravani

to becoming one,

da to postanu,

but that's mostly not true,

ali to uglavnom nije istina

because a forced informant is a bad informant.

jer je usiljeni doušnik, loš doušnik.

Only someone who wants to give you the information you need

Samo onaj ko želi da vam pruži željenu informaciju

is an effective whistleblower.

je efikasan uzbunjivač.

The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi

Glavni razlozi zbog kojih su ljudi sarađivali sa Štazijem

were political conviction and material benefits.

su bili politička ubeđenja i materijalna korist.

The officers also tried to create a personal bond

Oficiri su takođe pokušavali da izgrade lične veze

between themselves and the informant,

između sebe i doušnika,

and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows

i da budem iskren, Štazijev primer nam pokazuje

that it's not so difficult to win someone

da nije tako teško pridobiti nekoga

in order to betray others.

kako bi izdao druge.

Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany

Čak su i neki od vrhunskih disidenata iz Istočne Nemačke

collaborated with the Stasi,

sarađivali sa Štazijem,

as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.

kao na primer Ibrahim Beme.

In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution

Godine 1989, bio je vođa mirne revolucije

and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR

i umalo nije postao prvi slobodno izabrani premijer NDR-a,

until it came out that he was an informant.

dok nije otkriveno da je bio doušnik.

The net of spies was really broad.

Mreža špijuna je bila zaista široka.

In nearly every institution,

U skoro svakoj instituciji,

even in the churches or in West Germany,

čak i u crkvama ili u Zapadnoj Nemačkoj

there were many of them.

bilo ih je mnogo.

I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,

Sećam se kako sam rekao vodećem oficiru Štazija:

"If you had sent an informant to me,

"Da ste mi poslali doušnika,

I would surely have recognized him."

sigurno bih ga prepoznao."

His answer was,

On je odgovorio:

"We didn't send anyone.

"Nismo poslali nikoga.

We took those who were around you."

Uzeli smo ljude koji su bili oko vas."

And in fact, two of my best friends

Zapravo su moja dva najbolja prijatelja

reported about me to the Stasi.

izveštavala o meni Štaziju.

Not only in my case, informers were very close.

Nisu samo u mom slučaju doušnici bili bliski ljudi.

For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident,

Na primer, Veru Lengsfeld, još jednog vodećeg disidenta,

in her case it was her husband who spied on her.

špijunirao je njen muž.

A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.

Poznatog pisca je izdao rođeni brat.

This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,

Ovo me podseća na roman "1984" od Džordža Orvela,

where the only apparently trustable person

u kome se čini da je jedina osoba od poverenja

was an informer.

doušnik.

But why did the Stasi collect all this information

Ali zašto je Štazi sakupljala sve ove informacije

in its archives?

u svojim arhivima?

The main purpose was to control the society.

Glavni cilj je bio kontrolisanje društva.

In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister

U skoro svim govorima, ministar Štazija

gave the order to find out who is who,

je naređivao da se otkrije ko je ko,

which meant who thinks what.

što je značilo ko o čemu razmišlja.

He didn't want to wait until somebody

On nije želeo da čeka da neko

tried to act against the regime.

pokuša da deluje protiv režima.

He wanted to know in advance

Želeo je unapred da zna

what people were thinking and planning.

o čemu su ljudi razmišljali i šta su planirali.

The East Germans knew, of course,

Ljudi u Istočnoj Nemačkoj su naravno znali

that they were surrounded by informers,

da su okruženi doušnicima,

in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust

u totalitarnom režimu koji stvara nepoverenje

and a state of widespread fear,

i stanje široko rasprostranjenog straha,

the most important tools to oppress people

najznačajnija oruđa za ugnjetavanje ljudi

in any dictatorship.

u bilo kojoj diktaturi.

That's why not many East Germans tried

Zbog toga je retko koji Istočni Nemac pokušao

to fight against the Communist regime.

da se usprotivi komunističkom režimu.

If yes, the Stasi often used a method

Ukoliko jeste, Štazi je često koristila metod

which was really diabolic.

koji je bio uistinu dijaboličan.

It was called Zersetzung,

Nazivan je cerzecungom

and it's described in another guideline.

i opisan je u drugom vodiču.

The word is difficult to translate because it means

Reč je teško prevesti jer izvorno zanči

originally "biodegradation."

"biodegradacija".

But actually, it's a quite accurate description.

Ali to je zapravo prilično precizan opis.

The goal was to destroy secretly

Cilj je bio da se tajno uništi

the self-confidence of people,

samopouzdanje ljudi,

for example by damaging their reputation,

na primer, narušavanjem njihovog ugleda,

by organizing failures in their work,

udešavanjem grešaka na njihovom poslu

and by destroying their personal relationships.

i uništavanjem njihovih privatnih odnosa.

Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship.

Imajući u vidu sve ovo, Istočna Nemačka je bila moderna diktatura.

The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.

Štazi nije pokušavala da uhapsi svakog disidenta.

It preferred to paralyze them,

Više su voleli da ih parališu,

and it could do so because

a mogli su da to rade

it had access to so much personal information

jer su imali pristup tolikim ličnim informacijama

and to so many institutions.

i tolikim institucijama.

Detaining someone was used only

Pritvaranje ljudi je korišteno samo

as a last resort.

kao poslednje pribežište.

For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,

Za te svrhe, Štazi je posedovala 17 pritvora,

one in every district.

po jedan u svakom okrugu.

Here, the Stasi also developed

Ovde je Štazi, takođe, razvila

quite modern methods of detention.

prilično moderne metode pritvaranja.

Normally, the interrogation officer

Po pravilu, oficir za saslušanja

didn't torture the prisoner.

nije mučio zatvorenika.

Instead, he used a sophisticated system

Umesto toga, koristio je prefinjeni sistem

of psychological pressure

psihološkog pritiska

in which strict isolation was central.

za koji je stroga izolacija bila najbitnija.

Nearly no prisoner resisted

Skoro da se nijedan zatvorenik nije opirao

without giving a testimony.

svedočenju.

If you have the occasion,

Ukoliko vam se pruži prilika,

do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin

posetite bivši Štazijev zatvor u Berlinu

and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner

i prisustvujte turi čiji je vodič bivši politički zatvorenik

who will explain to you how this worked.

koji će vam objasniti kako je ovo funkcionisalo.

One more question needs to be answered:

Moramo odgovoriti na još jedno pitanje:

If the Stasi were so well organized,

ako je Štazi bila tako dobro organizovana,

why did the Communist regime collapse?

zašto je došlo do sloma komunističkog režima?

First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany

Pre svega, 1989. godine rukovodstvo Istočne Nemačke

was uncertain what to do against

nije bilo sigurno šta da radi protiv

the growing protest of people.

rastućeg nezadovoljstva naroda.

It was especially confused

A naročito su bili zbunjeni

because in the mother country of socialism,

jer je u matičnoj zemlji socijalizma,

the Soviet Union,

Sovjetskom Savezu,

a more liberal policy took place.

zavladala liberalnija politika.

In addition, the regime was dependent

Uz sve to, režim je zavisio

on the loans from the West.

od zajmova sa Zapada.

Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising

Stoga, nijedna naredba nije data Štaziju

was given to the Stasi.

da razbije pobunu.

Secondly, in the Communist ideology,

Zatim, u komunističkoj ideologiji

there's no place for criticism.

nema mesta za kritiku.

Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief

Umesto toga, vođe su se držale ubeđenja

that socialism is a perfect system,

da je socijalizam savršen sistem

and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.

i da Štazi mora to verovanje i da potkrepi, naravno.

The consequence was

Posledica toga bila je

that despite all the information,

da, uprkos svim informacijama,

the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,

režim nije mogao da analizira istinske probleme

and therefore it couldn't solve them.

i samim tim nije mogao da ih reši.

In the end, the Stasi died

Konačno, Štazi je uništena

because of the structures

zahvaljujući strukturama

that it was charged with protecting.

koje je bila zadužena da štiti.

The ending of the Stasi

Štazijev kraj

was something tragic,

je bio nešto tragično

because these officers

jer su ovi oficiri

were kept busy during the peaceful revolution

bili zauzeti tokom mirne revolucije

with only one thing:

samo jednom stvari:

to destroy the documents

uništavanjem dokumenata

they had produced during decades.

koje su stvarali decenijama.

Fortunately,

Srećom,

they had been stopped by human rights activists.

zaustavili su ih aktivisti za ljudska prava.

That's why today we can use the files

Zato danas možemo da koristimo dokumenta

to get a better understanding

kako bismo bolje razumeli

of how a surveillance state functions.

kako država pod nadzorom funkcioniše.

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Bruno Đusani: Hvala. Mnogo vam hvala.

So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions

Pa, Hubertuse, želim da ti postavim par pitanja

because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.

jer držim u rukama prošlonedeljni "Špigl".

"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.

"Mein Nachbar NSA." Moj komšija NSA.

And you just told us about my neighbor,

A ti si nam upravo govorio o mojim komšijama,

the spies and the informant from East Germany.

špijunima i doušnicima iz Istočne Nemačke.

So there is a direct link between these two stories

Dakle, postoji direktna veza između ove dve priče,

or there isn't?

ili ne postoji?

What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?

Kako reaguješ kao istoričar, kad vidiš ovo?

Hubertus Knabe: I think there are

Hunertus Knabe: Mislim da bi trebalo

several aspects to mention.

pomenuti nekoliko aspekata.

At first, I think there's a difference

Kao prvo, mislim da postoji razlika

of why you are collecting this data.

u tome zašto sakupljate ove podatke.

Are you doing that for protecting your people

Da li to radite da zaštitite svoj narod

against terrorist attacks,

od terorističkih napada

or are you doing that for oppressing your people?

ili to radite radi ugnjetavanja svog naroda?

So that makes a fundamental difference.

U tome je osnovna razlika.

But on the other hand,

Ali, s druge strane,

also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused,

i u demokratiji ovi instrumenti mogu da se zloupotrebe

and that is something where we really have

i to je nešto čega uistinu moramo

to be aware to stop that,

da budemo svesni da bi to zaustavili

and that also the intelligence services

i da, takođe, obaveštajne službe

are respecting the rules we have.

moraju da poštuju postojeće zakone.

The third point, probably,

Treća stvar, verovatno,

we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,

mi zaista možemo da budemo srećni jer živimo u demokratiji,

because you can be sure that Russia and China

jer budite sigurni da Rusija i Kina

are doing the same,

rade isto to,

but nobody speaks about that

ali niko ne govori o tome

because nobody could do that.

jer niko ne sme to da radi.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

BG: When the story came out first,

BĐ: Kada je priča prvi put objavljena,

last July, last year,

prošlog jula prošle godine,

you filed a criminal complaint

podneli ste krivičnu prijavu

with a German tribunal. Why?

Nemačkom sudu. Zašto?

HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned,

HK: Da, uradio sam to zbog druge stvari koju sam pomenuo,

that I think especially in a democracy,

ja verujem da, naročito u demokratiji

the rules are for everybody.

pravila postoje za svakoga.

They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed

Napravljena su za svakoga, zato je nedopustivo

that any institution doesn't respect the rules.

da bilo koja institucija ne poštuje pravila.

In the criminal code of Germany, it's written

U nemačkom krivičnom zakonu stoji

that it's not allowed to tap somebody

da nije dozvoljeno prisluškivanje nekoga

without the permission of the judge.

bez sudske dozvole.

Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany,

Srećom, tako je napisano u nemačkom krivičnom zakonu,

so if it's not respected, then I think

te stoga ukoliko se ne poštuje, onda mislim

an investigation is necessary,

da je istraga neophodna

and it took a very long time that

i trebalo je mnogo vremena

the public prosecutor of Germany started this,

da nemački javni tužilac otvori istragu,

and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,

a otvorio je samo u slučaju Angele Merkel,

and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.

ne i u slučaju ostalih ljudi koji žive u Nemačkoj.

BG: That doesn't surprise me because —

BĐ: To me iznenađuje zbog -

(Applause) —

(Aplauz) -

because of the story you told.

zbog priče koju si ispričao.

Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,

Gledano spolja, ja ne živim u Nemačkoj,

and I expected the Germans to react

očekivao sam da će Nemci reagovati

much more strongly, immediately.

mnogo snažnije, istog momenta.

And instead, the reaction really came only

Umesto toga, reakcija je došla tek

when Chancellor Merkel was revealed

kada je otkriveno da je kancelarka Merkel prisluškivana.

as being wiretapped. Why so?

Zašto je to tako?

HK: I take it as a good sign,

HK: Ja to shvatam kao dobar znak,

because people feel secure in this democracy.

zato što se ljudi osećaju sigurno u ovoj demokratiji,

They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,

nije ih strah da će da budu uhapšeni

and if you leave this hall after the conference,

i kada napustite ovu salu, nakon konferencije

nobody has to be afraid that the secret police

niko ne mora da strahuje da tajna policija

is standing out and is arresting you.

stoji napolju i čeka da vas uhapsi.

So that's a good sign, I think.

Dakle, to je dobar znak, mislim.

People are not really scared, as they could be.

Ljude nije zaista strah, kao što bi moglo da bude.

But of course, I think, the institutions

Ali, naravno, mislim da institucije

are responsible to stop illegal actions

imaju odgovornost da zaustave ilegalne aktivnosti

in Germany or wherever they happen.

u Nemačkoj, ili bilo gde drugo.

BG: A personal question, and this is the last one.

BĐ: Jedno lično pitanje, i biće i poslednje.

There has been a debate in Germany about

Bila je debata u Nemačkoj

granting asylum to Edward Snowden.

o odobravanju azila Eduardu Snoudenu.

Would you be in favor or against?

Da li ste za ili protiv ovoga?

HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,

HK: Uh, to je teško pitanje,

but if you ask me,

ali ako mene pitate

and if I answer honestly,

i, ako bih iskreno odgovorio,

I would give him the asylum,

dao bih mu azil

because I think it was really brave what he did,

jer mislim da je zaista hrabro ono što je uradio

and he destroyed his whole life

i uništio je čitav svoj život,

and his family and everything.

svoju porodicu i sve.

So I think, for these people, we should do something,

Zato mislim da moramo da učinimo nešto za te ljude,

and especially if you see the German history,

a naročito ako pogledate nemačku istoriju,

where so many people had to escape

gde je toliko ljudi moralo da pobegne

and they asked for asylum in other countries

i da traži azil u drugim državama,

and they didn't get it,

a nisu ga dobili,

so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.

zato bi bio dobar znak, ako bismo njemu dali azil.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)

BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.

BĐ: Hubertuse, mnogo vam hvala.