Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state

Prevoditelj: Marija Saric Recezent: Ivan Stamenković

This year, Germany is celebrating

Ove godine, Njemačka slavi

the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution

25. godišnjicu mirne revolucije

in East Germany.

u Istočnoj Njemačkoj.

In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,

1989. godine, komunistički režim je uklonjen,

the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,

Berlinski zid je srušen, a godinu dana poslije,

the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,

Njemačka Demokratska Republika, DDR,

in the East was unified

je na istoku ujedinjena

with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West

sa Saveznom Republikom Njemačkom na zapadu

to found today's Germany.

te je osnovana današnja Njemačka.

Among many other things, Germany inherited

Između ostalog, Njemačka je naslijedila

the archives of the East German secret police,

arhive istočnonjemačke tajne policije

known as the Stasi.

poznate kao Stasi.

Only two years after its dissolution,

Samo dvije godine nakon njegovog raspuštanja,

its documents were opened to the public,

dokumenti su otvoreni javnosti,

and historians such as me started

a povjesničari poput mene počeli su

to study these documents

proučavati ove dokumente

to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state

kako bi shvatili kako je DDR-ov državni nadzor

functioned.

funkcionirao.

Perhaps you have watched the movie

Možda ste pogledali film

"The Lives of Others."

"Život drugih".

This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,

Ovaj film pokazao je Stasi svijetu

and as we live in an age where words

i kako živimo u doba kada su riječi

such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"

poput "nadzor" ili "prisluškivanje"

are on the front pages of newspapers,

na prvim stranicama novina,

I would like to speak about how the Stasi

htio bih reći nešto o tome kako je Stasi

really worked.

stvarno funkcionirao.

At the beginning, let's have a short look

Prije svega, pogledajmo ukratko

at the history of the Stasi,

povijest Stasija

because it's really important for understanding

jer je to iznimno važno za razumijevanje

its self-conception.

njegovog začetka.

Its origins are located in Russia.

Njegovo ishodište je u Rusiji.

In 1917, the Russian Communists founded

1917., ruski komunisti su osnovali

the Emergency Commission for Combating

Izvanredno povjerenstvo za borbu

Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,

protiv kontrarevolucije i sabotaže,

shortly Cheka.

skraćeno ČEKA.

It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.

Vodio ju je Feliks Dzeržinski.

The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists

ČEKA je bila komunistički instrument

to establish their regime by terrorizing the population

za uspostavljanje svog režima kroz teror stanovništva

and executing their enemies.

i likvidacijom svojih neprijatelja.

It evolved later into the well-known KGB.

Kasnije je evoluirala u dobro poznati KGB.

The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.

ČEKA je bila idol Stasi časnika.

They called themselves Chekists,

Nazivali su se Čekistima,

and even the emblem was very similar,

a čak im je i grb bio vrlo sličan,

as you can see here.

kao što vidite.

In fact, the secret police of Russia

Zapravo je ruska tajna policija

was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.

bila stvoritelj i učitelj Stasija.

When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,

Kada je Crvena armija okupirala Istočnu Njemačku 1945.,

it immediately expanded there,

odmah se ondje proširila

and soon it started to train the German Communists

i ubrzo počela s uvježbavanjem njemačkih komunista

to build up their own secret police.

u izgradnji svoje tajne policije.

By the way, in this hall where we are now,

Usputno rečeno, u ovoj dvorani u kojoj se nalazimo

the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.

osnovana je vodeća stranka DDR-a 1946. godine.

Five years later, the Stasi was established,

Pet godina poslije, Stasi je uspostavljen

and step by step, the dirty job of oppression

te malo pomalo, prljavi posao opresije

was handed over to it.

mu je predan.

For instance, the central jail

Na primjer, središnji zatvor

for political prisoners,

za političke zatvorenike,

which was established by the Russians,

kojeg su uspostavili Rusi,

was taken over by the Stasi

preuzeo je Stasi

and used until the end of Communism.

i koristio do pada komunizma.

You see it here.

Vidite ga ovdje.

At the beginning, every important step

Na početku, svaki važniji korak

took place under the attendance of the Russians.

napravljen je uz dežurstvo Rusa.

But the Germans are known to be very effective,

No Nijemci su poznati po svojoj učinkovitosti

so the Stasi grew very quickly,

stoga je Stasi vrlo brzo rastao,

and already in 1953, it had more employees

a već je 1953. godine imao više zaposlenika

than the Gestapo had,

od Gestapa,

the secret police of Nazi Germany.

tajne policije nacističke Njemačke.

The number doubled in each decade.

Broj im se udvostručavao svakog desetljeća.

In 1989, more than 90,000 employees

1989. godine, više od 90 000 zaposlenika

worked for the Stasi.

radilo je za Stasi.

This meant that one employee

To znači da je jedan zaposlenik

was responsible for 180 inhabitants,

bio odgovoran za 180 stanovnika,

which was really unique in the world.

što je bilo doista jedinstveno u svijetu.

At the top of this tremendous apparatus,

Na vrhu ove silne mašinerije

there was one man, Erich Mielke.

bio je jedan čovjek, Erich Mielke.

Bio je na čelu Ministarstva za državnu sigurnost

He ruled the Ministry of State Security

for more than 30 years.

duže od 30 godina.

He was a scrupulous functionary —

Bio je savjestan dužnosnik -

in his past, he killed two policemen

u prošlosti, ubio je dvojicu policajaca

not far away from here —

nedaleko odavdje -

who in fact personalized the Stasi.

koji je bio oličenje Stasija.

But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?

No što je bilo tako posebno u vezi Stasija?

Foremost, it was its enormous power,

Prvo, bila je to njegova ogromna moć

because it united different functions

jer je ujedinio različite funkcije

in one organization.

u jednoj organizaciji.

First of all, the Stasi

Prije svega, Stasi

was an intelligence service.

je bio obavještajna služba.

It used all the imaginable instruments

Koristio je sve moguće instrumente

for getting information secretly,

za tajno dobivanje informacija,

such as informers, or tapping phones,

poput doušnika ili prisluškivanja telefona

as you can see it on the picture here.

kao što vidite na ovoj slici.

And it was not only active in East Germany,

Nije bio aktivan samo u Istočnoj Njemačkoj

but all over the world.

nego u cijelom svijetu.

Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.

Drugo, Stasi je bio tajna policija.

It could stop people on the street

Mogao je zaustaviti ljude na ulici

and arrest them in its own prisons.

i uhititi ih u svoje vlastite zatvore.

Thirdly, the Stasi worked

Treće, Stasi je djelovao

as a kind of public prosecutor.

i kao nekakav javni tužitelj.

It had the right to open preliminary investigations

Imao je pravo otvarati preliminarne istrage

and to interrogate people officially.

i službeno ispitivati ljude.

Last but not least,

I na kraju,

the Stasi had its own armed forces.

Stasi je imao svoje oružane snage.

More than 11,000 soldiers were serving

Više od 11 000 vojnika služilo je

in its so-called Guards Regiment.

u njegovom tzv. Guards Regiment.

It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.

Osnovan je za suzbijanje prosvjeda i ustanaka.

Due to this concentration of power,

S obzirom na ovu koncentraciju moći,

the Stasi was called a state in the state.

Stasi se nazivao državom u državi.

But let's look in more and more detail

No, pogledajmo detaljnije

at the tools of the Stasi.

alate Stasija.

Please keep in mind that at that time

Imajte na umu da u to vrijeme

the web and smartphones were not yet invented.

internet i pametni telefoni nisu bili izumljeni.

Of course, the Stasi used all kinds

Naravno, Stasi je koristio svakakve

of technical instruments to survey people.

tehničke instrumente za nadzor ljudi.

Telephones were wiretapped,

Prisluškivali su telefone,

including the phone of the German chancellor in the West,

uključujući i telefon njemačkog kancelara na Zapadu,

and often also the apartments.

a često i stanove.

Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened

Svaki dan, preko 90 000 pisama

by these machines.

su ovi strojevi otvarali.

The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people

Stasi je i pratio desetke tisuća ljudi

using specially trained agents and secret cameras

pomoću posebno uvježbanih agenata i tajnih kamera

to document every step one took.

kako bi dokumentirali nečiji svaki korak.

In this picture, you can see me

Na ovoj slici, vidite mene

as a young man just in front of this building

kao mladića ispred ove zgrade u kojoj se nalazimo,

where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.

gdje me uslikao Stasi agent.

The Stasi even collected the smell of people.

Stasi je čak skupljao i miris ljudi.

It stored samples of it in closed jars

Čuvao je uzorke u zatvorenim staklenkama,

which were found after the peaceful revolution.

koje su pronađene nakon mirne revolucije.

For all these tasks, highly specialized departments

Za sve ove zadatke, bili su odgovorni

were responsible.

posebni odjeli.

The one which was tapping phone calls

Odjel koji je prisluškivao telefone

was completely separated

bio je u potpunosti odvojen

from the one which controlled the letters,

od onoga koji je kontrolirao pisma,

for good reasons,

i iz dobrih razloga,

because if one agent quit the Stasi,

jer ako jedan agent prestane biti Stasi,

his knowledge was very small.

njegovo znanje je skromno.

Contrast that with Snowden, for example.

Usporedite to sa Snowdenom, na primjer.

But the vertical specialization was also important

No i vertikalna specijalizacija bila je važna

to prevent all kinds of empathy

kako bi se spriječile sve empatije

with the object of observation.

s objektom prismotre.

The agent who shadowed me

Agent koji me je pratio

didn't know who I was

nije znao tko sam

or why I was surveyed.

niti zašto me prati.

In fact, I smuggled forbidden books

Krijumčario sam zabranjene knjige

from West to East Germany.

iz Zapadne u Istočnu Njemačku.

But what was even more typical for the Stasi

Ono što je bilo još tipičnije za Stasi

was the use of human intelligence,

je bila upotreba obavještajaca,

people who reported secretly to the Stasi.

ljudi koji su tajno izvještavali Stasi.

For the Minister of State Security,

Za Ministra za državnu sigurnost,

these so-called unofficial employees

ovi tzv. neslužbeni zaposlenici

were the most important tools.

bili su najvažniji alat.

From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people

Od 1975. nadalje, gotovo 200 000 ljudi

collaborated constantly with the Stasi,

konstantno je surađivalo sa Stasijem,

more than one percent of the population.

što je više od jedan posto stanovništva.

And in a way, the minister was right,

Na neki način, ministar je bio u pravu

because technical instruments

jer tehnički instrumenti

can only register what people are doing,

mogu samo zabilježiti što ljudi rade,

but agents and spies can also report

ali agenti i špijuni mogu izvijestiti i o tome

what people are planning to do

što ljudi planiraju učiniti

and what they are thinking.

i o čemu razmišljaju.

Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.

Zbog ovoga je Stasi uposlio toliko doušnika.

The system of how to get them

Sustav njihovog pribavljanja

and how to educate them, as it was called,

i edukacije, kako su to nazivali,

was very sophisticated.

bio je vrlo profinjen.

The Stasi had its own university,

Stasi je imao svoje sveučilište,

not far away from here,

nedaleko odavdje,

where the methods were explored

gdje su se proučavale metode

and taught to the officers.

i poučavale časnicima.

This guideline gave a detailed description

Ovaj vodič davao je detaljan opis

of every step you have to take

svakog potrebnog koraka

if you want to convince human beings

ako želite uvjeriti ljudsko biće

to betray their fellow citizens.

da izda svoje sugrađane.

Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured

Katkad kažu kako se doušnike prisiljavalo

to becoming one,

da postanu doušnicima,

but that's mostly not true,

ali to uglavnom nije istina

because a forced informant is a bad informant.

jer prisiljeni doušnik je loš doušnik.

Only someone who wants to give you the information you need

Samo netko tko vam želi dati informacije koje vam trebaju je

is an effective whistleblower.

učinkovit zviždač.

The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi

Glavni razlozi zašto su ljudi surađivali sa Stasijem

were political conviction and material benefits.

bili su političko uvjerenje i materijalna korist.

The officers also tried to create a personal bond

Časnici su također pokušavali stvoriti osobnu vezu

between themselves and the informant,

između sebe i doušnika

and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows

i iskreno, primjer Stasija pokazuje

that it's not so difficult to win someone

da nije tako teško pridobiti nekoga

in order to betray others.

kako bi izdao druge.

Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany

Čak su i neki vodeći disidenti Istočne Njemačke

collaborated with the Stasi,

surađivali sa Stasijem,

as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.

kao na primjer Ibrahim Böhme.

In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution

1989., bio je vođa mirne revolucije

and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR

te je umalo postao prvi slobodnoizabrani premijer DDR-a

until it came out that he was an informant.

dok se nije otkrilo da je bio doušnik.

The net of spies was really broad.

Mreža špijuna bila je doista široka.

In nearly every institution,

U svakoj instituciji,

even in the churches or in West Germany,

čak i u crkvama Zapadne Njemačke,

there were many of them.

bilo ih je mnogo.

I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,

Sjećam se da sam rekao vodećem časniku Stasija:

"If you had sent an informant to me,

"Da ste poslali doušnika k meni,

I would surely have recognized him."

sigurno bih ga prepoznao."

His answer was,

Njegov odgovor bio je:

"We didn't send anyone.

"Nismo slali nikoga.

We took those who were around you."

Uzeli smo one koji te okružuju."

And in fact, two of my best friends

I doista, dvojica mojih najboljih prijatelja

reported about me to the Stasi.

izvještavali su Stasi o meni.

Not only in my case, informers were very close.

Nisu samo u mojem slučaju doušnici bili tako blizu.

For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident,

Na primjer, Vera Lengsfeld, druga vodeća disidentica,

in her case it was her husband who spied on her.

u njezinom slučaju, njezin vlastiti muž ju je špijunirao.

A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.

Poznatog pisca izdao je vlastiti brat.

This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,

Ovo me podsjeća na roman "1984" Georga Orwella,

where the only apparently trustable person

gdje je jedina osoba kojoj se može vjerovati

was an informer.

doušnik.

But why did the Stasi collect all this information

No, zašto je Stasi skupljao sve ove informacije

in its archives?

u svojim arhivama?

The main purpose was to control the society.

Glavni razlog bio je kontrola društva.

In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister

U gotovo svakom govoru, ministar Stasija

gave the order to find out who is who,

davao je naredbu da se sazna tko je tko,

which meant who thinks what.

što je značilo tko što misli.

He didn't want to wait until somebody

Nije želio čekati do toga da netko

tried to act against the regime.

pokuša djelovati protiv režima.

He wanted to know in advance

Želio je znati unaprijed

what people were thinking and planning.

što su ljudi mislili i planirali.

The East Germans knew, of course,

Istočni Nijemci znali su, naravno,

that they were surrounded by informers,

da su okruženi doušnicima

in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust

u totalitarnom režimu koji je stvarao nepovjerenje

and a state of widespread fear,

i stanje široko rasprostranjenog straha,

the most important tools to oppress people

što su najbitniji alati za opresiju ljudi

in any dictatorship.

u bilo kojoj diktaturi.

That's why not many East Germans tried

Zbog ovoga se nije mnogo Istočnih Nijemaca pokušavalo

to fight against the Communist regime.

boriti protiv komunističkog režima.

If yes, the Stasi often used a method

Ako jesu, Stasi je upotrebljavao metodu

which was really diabolic.

koja je bila doista opaka.

It was called Zersetzung,

Zvala se Zersetzung

and it's described in another guideline.

i opisana je u drugom vodiču.

The word is difficult to translate because it means

Ovu riječ je teško prevesti jer izvorno

originally "biodegradation."

znači "biodegradacija".

But actually, it's a quite accurate description.

Zapravo je to poprilično točan opis.

The goal was to destroy secretly

Cilj je bio tajno uništiti

the self-confidence of people,

samopouzdanje ljudi,

for example by damaging their reputation,

na primjer, kroz oštećivanje njihovog ugleda,

by organizing failures in their work,

organizacijom neuspjeha na njihovom poslu

and by destroying their personal relationships.

i uništavanjem njihovih osobnih veza.

Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship.

S obzirom na to, Istočna Njemačka bila je vrlo moderna diktatura.

The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.

Stasi nije pokušavao uhititi svakog disidenta.

It preferred to paralyze them,

Radije su ih paralizirali,

and it could do so because

a mogli su to

it had access to so much personal information

jer su imali pristup tolikim osobnim informacijama

and to so many institutions.

i tolikom broju institucija.

Detaining someone was used only

Zadržavanje nekog koristilo se samo

as a last resort.

kao posljednja mjera.

For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,

Za ovo, Stasi je posjedovao 17 istražnih zatvora,

one in every district.

jedan u svakom distriktu.

Here, the Stasi also developed

Ovdje je Stasi razvijao

quite modern methods of detention.

vrlo moderne metode zadržavanja.

Normally, the interrogation officer

Obično, istražitelj

didn't torture the prisoner.

nije mučio zatvorenika.

Instead, he used a sophisticated system

Umjesto toga, koristio je profinjeni sustav

of psychological pressure

psihološkog pritiska

in which strict isolation was central.

u čijem je središtu bila stroga izolacija.

Nearly no prisoner resisted

Gotovo nijedan zatvorenik nije se odupro

without giving a testimony.

davanju svjedočanstva.

If you have the occasion,

Ako budete imali priliku,

do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin

posjetite Stasi zatvor u Berlinu

and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner

i sudjelujte u obilasku s vodičem, koji je bio politički zatvorenik

who will explain to you how this worked.

i koji će vam objasniti kako je ovo funkcioniralo.

One more question needs to be answered:

Još je jedno pitanje potrebno odgovoriti:

If the Stasi were so well organized,

ako je Stasi bio tako dobro organiziran,

why did the Communist regime collapse?

zašto je komunistički režim pao?

First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany

Prvo, 1989. godine, vodstvo Istočne Njemačke

was uncertain what to do against

nije bilo sigurno što učiniti oko

the growing protest of people.

rastućeg prosvjeda ljudi.

It was especially confused

Posebno ih je zbunjivalo to

because in the mother country of socialism,

jer je u matičnoj državi socijalizma,

the Soviet Union,

Sovjetskom Savezu,

a more liberal policy took place.

uspostavljena liberalnija politika.

In addition, the regime was dependent

Nadalje, režim je ovisio

on the loans from the West.

o zajmovima od Zapada.

Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising

Stoga, Stasi nije dobio naredbu

was given to the Stasi.

o rušenju ustanka.

Secondly, in the Communist ideology,

Drugo, u komunističkoj ideologiji

there's no place for criticism.

nema mjesta kritici.

Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief

Umjesto toga, vodstvo se držalo vjerovanja

that socialism is a perfect system,

da je socijalizam savršen sustav,

and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.

a Stasi je to, naravno, morao potvrditi.

The consequence was

Posljedica ovoga jest

that despite all the information,

da usprkos svim informacijama,

the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,

režim nije mogao analizirati svoje prave probleme

and therefore it couldn't solve them.

te ih nije mogao ni riješiti.

In the end, the Stasi died

Na kraju, Stasi je izdahnuo

because of the structures

zbog struktura

that it was charged with protecting.

koje je trebao štititi.

The ending of the Stasi

Kraj Stasija

was something tragic,

bio je nešto tragično

because these officers

jer su ovi časnici

were kept busy during the peaceful revolution

bili zaposleni tijekom mirne revolucije

with only one thing:

samo s jednom stvari:

to destroy the documents

uništavanjem dokumenata

they had produced during decades.

koje su stvarali desetljećima.

Fortunately,

Nasreću,

they had been stopped by human rights activists.

zaustavili su ih aktivisti za ljudska prava.

That's why today we can use the files

Zato danas možemo koristiti te dokumente

to get a better understanding

kako bismo bolje razumjeli

of how a surveillance state functions.

kako funkcionira državni nadzor.

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Pljesak)

(Applause)

Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Bruno Giussani: Hvala. Puno hvala.

So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions

Dakle, Hubertus, želim Vas pitati par pitanja

because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.

jer ovdje imam Der Spiegel od prošlog tjedna.

"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.

"Mein Nachbar NSA". Moj susjed, NSA.

And you just told us about my neighbor,

Upravo ste nam rekli o našem susjedu,

the spies and the informant from East Germany.

o špijunima i doušnicima Istočne Njemačke.

So there is a direct link between these two stories

Ima li izravne veze između ove dvije priče

or there isn't?

ili nema?

Koja je Vaša reakcija kao povjesničara kada ovo vidite?

What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?

Hubertus Knabe: I think there are

Hubertus Knabe: Mislim da

several aspects to mention.

treba spomenuti nekoliko aspekata.

At first, I think there's a difference

Prvo, mislim da postoji razlika

of why you are collecting this data.

između toga zašto se skupljaju podatci.

Are you doing that for protecting your people

Činite li to da zaštitite svoje ljude

against terrorist attacks,

od terorističkih napada

or are you doing that for oppressing your people?

ili to činite kako bi vršili opresiju nad svojim ljudima?

So that makes a fundamental difference.

Ovo čini fundamentalnu razliku.

But on the other hand,

No, s druge strane,

also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused,

u demokraciji je ove instrumente moguće zloupotrijebiti

and that is something where we really have

i toga moramo biti svjesni

to be aware to stop that,

kako bi to zaustavili

and that also the intelligence services

te da obavještajne službe

are respecting the rules we have.

poštuju pravila koja imamo.

The third point, probably,

Treće, vjerojatno,

we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,

možemo biti sretni što živimo u demokraciji

because you can be sure that Russia and China

jer možete biti sigurni da Rusija i Kina

are doing the same,

čine istu stvar,

but nobody speaks about that

ali nitko o tome ne priča

because nobody could do that.

jer nitko ne smije.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

BG: When the story came out first,

BG: Kada je priča izašla na vidjelo,

last July, last year,

prošlog srpnja, prošle godine,

you filed a criminal complaint

uložili ste kaznenu tužbu

with a German tribunal. Why?

na Njemačkom sudu. Zašto?

HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned,

HK: Da, učinio sam to zbog druge stvari koju sam spomenuo,

that I think especially in a democracy,

što smatram da, posebno u demokraciji,

the rules are for everybody.

pravila vrijede za sve.

They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed

Napravljena su za sve, dakle nije dozovljeno da

that any institution doesn't respect the rules.

ijedna institucija ne poštuje pravila.

In the criminal code of Germany, it's written

U Kaznenom zakonu Njemačke piše

that it's not allowed to tap somebody

da nije dozvoljeno prisluškivati nekoga

without the permission of the judge.

bez dopuštenja sudca.

Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany,

Nasreću, to piše u Kaznenom zakonu Njemačke

so if it's not respected, then I think

stoga ako se ne poštuje, onda smatram

an investigation is necessary,

da je potrebna istraga

and it took a very long time that

i trebalo je puno vremena da

the public prosecutor of Germany started this,

javni tužitelj Njemačke ovo pokrene,

and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,

a pokrenuo je samo u slučaju Angele Merkel,

and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.

ali ne i u slučaju svih drugih ljudi koji žive u Njemačkoj.

BG: That doesn't surprise me because —

BG: Ovo me ne iznenađuje zbog —

(Applause) —

(Pljesak) —

because of the story you told.

zbog priče koju ste ispričali.

Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,

Gledano izvana, živim izvan Njemačke

and I expected the Germans to react

i očekujem da Nijemci reagiraju

much more strongly, immediately.

mnogo snažnije, odmah.

And instead, the reaction really came only

Umjesto toga, reakcija je došla samo

when Chancellor Merkel was revealed

kada se otkrilo prisluškivanje kancelarke Merkel.

as being wiretapped. Why so?

Zašto?

HK: I take it as a good sign,

HK: Vidim to kao dobar znak

because people feel secure in this democracy.

jer se ljudi osjećaju sigurno u ovoj demokraciji.

They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,

Ne boje se uhićenja,

and if you leave this hall after the conference,

a kada napustite ovu dvoranu nakon konferencije,

nobody has to be afraid that the secret police

nitko se ne mora bojati da tajna policija

is standing out and is arresting you.

stoji ispred i da će vas uhititi.

So that's a good sign, I think.

Tako da je to dobar znak.

People are not really scared, as they could be.

Ljudi nisu uplašeni kao što bi mogli biti.

But of course, I think, the institutions

Naravno, mislim da su institucije

are responsible to stop illegal actions

odgovorne za zaustavljanje nezakonitih djelovanja

in Germany or wherever they happen.

u Njemačkoj ili bilo gdje drugdje.

BG: A personal question, and this is the last one.

BG: Osobno pitanje, a ovo je i posljednje.

There has been a debate in Germany about

U Njemačkoj se razvila rasprava o

granting asylum to Edward Snowden.

davanju azila Edwardu Snowdenu.

Would you be in favor or against?

Jeste li za ili protiv?

HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,

HK: Oh, ovo je teško pitanje,

but if you ask me,

ali ako mene pitate

and if I answer honestly,

i ako iskreno odgovaram,

I would give him the asylum,

dao bih mu azil

because I think it was really brave what he did,

jer vjerujem da je to što je učinio doista hrabro

and he destroyed his whole life

i uništio je svoj čitav život,

and his family and everything.

svoju obitelj i sve.

So I think, for these people, we should do something,

Zato smatram, zbog tih ljudi, da bismo trebali nešto učiniti,

and especially if you see the German history,

a posebno ako pogledate njemačku povijest,

where so many people had to escape

gdje je toliko ljudi moralo bježati

and they asked for asylum in other countries

i tražiti azil u drugim državama

and they didn't get it,

i nisu ga dobivali,

so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.

tako da bi bio dobar znak dati ga njemu.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.

BG: Hubertus, puno Vam hvala.