Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state

翻译人员: Siyun Zhou 校对人员: Bighead Ge

This year, Germany is celebrating

今年，德国正在庆祝

the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution

前东德

和平革命25周年

in East Germany.

In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,

在1989年，共产主义政权垮台

the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,

柏林墙倒塌，以及一年之后

the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,

在东边的德意志民主共和国

in the East was unified

简称GDR

with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West

与在西边的德意志联邦共和国统一

to found today's Germany.

成为今天的德国

Among many other things, Germany inherited

在所有事项中

德国继承了前东德的秘密警察

the archives of the East German secret police,

known as the Stasi.

被称为史塔西 （国家安全部）

Only two years after its dissolution,

在它解体后仅两年

its documents were opened to the public,

它的文档向大众公开

and historians such as me started

像我这样的历史学家

to study these documents

开始研究这些文档

to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state

了解更多关于GDR国家监控

functioned.

如何运作

Perhaps you have watched the movie

可能你看过这部电影

"The Lives of Others."

「窃听风暴」

This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,

这部电影使史塔西世界闻名

and as we live in an age where words

而我们生活在这样一个时代

such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"

例如「监控」或「窃听」

are on the front pages of newspapers,

这种字眼会在新闻首页

I would like to speak about how the Stasi

我很乐意分享现实中

really worked.

史塔西如何运作

At the beginning, let's have a short look

首先，我们简短回顾

at the history of the Stasi,

史塔西的历史

because it's really important for understanding

因为了解它的自我观

its self-conception.

很重要

Its origins are located in Russia.

它起源于俄罗斯

In 1917, the Russian Communists founded

1917年，俄罗斯共产党人建立了

the Emergency Commission for Combating

肃清反革命和消除怠工

Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,

紧急委员会

shortly Cheka.

简称契卡 （肃反委员会）

It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.

它由费利克斯・捷尔任斯基领导

The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists

契卡是共产党人建立政权的一个工具

to establish their regime by terrorizing the population

通过恐吓群众

and executing their enemies.

和处死敌人的方式

It evolved later into the well-known KGB.

后来它演变为著名的KGB （苏联国家安全委员会）

The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.

契卡是史塔西工作人员的楷模

They called themselves Chekists,

他们自称肃反委员会成员

and even the emblem was very similar,

甚至你在这里可以见到

as you can see here.

象徽非常相似

In fact, the secret police of Russia

事实上，俄罗斯秘密警察

was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.

是史塔西的创造者和引导人

When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,

当红军在1945年占领前东德后

it immediately expanded there,

它马上在前东德扩张

and soon it started to train the German Communists

不久，它开始训练德国共产党人

to build up their own secret police.

来建立他们自己的秘密警察

By the way, in this hall where we are now,

顺便一提，我们现在所在的大堂

the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.

是1946年GDR统治政党成立的地方

Five years later, the Stasi was established,

五年之后，史塔西成立

and step by step, the dirty job of oppression

逐渐地，肮脏的压迫工作

was handed over to it.

交到它手上

For instance, the central jail

例如，关押政治囚犯的

for political prisoners,

中央监狱

which was established by the Russians,

由俄罗斯人建立

was taken over by the Stasi

被史塔西接替

and used until the end of Communism.

使用直到共产主义结束

You see it here.

你见到的就是这个监狱

At the beginning, every important step

刚开始，每一个重要步骤

took place under the attendance of the Russians.

都在俄罗斯人在场时发生

But the Germans are known to be very effective,

但是德国人因高效闻名

so the Stasi grew very quickly,

所以史塔西成长非常迅速

and already in 1953, it had more employees

早在1953年，它比盖世太保

than the Gestapo had,

也称纳粹德国的秘密警察

the secret police of Nazi Germany.

拥有更多雇员

The number doubled in each decade.

这个数字每十年翻一倍

In 1989, more than 90,000 employees

1989年，多于9万雇员

worked for the Stasi.

为史塔西工作

This meant that one employee

这意味着一位雇员

was responsible for 180 inhabitants,

负责180位居民

which was really unique in the world.

这在世界上非常罕见

At the top of this tremendous apparatus,

在这庞大的机构顶端

there was one man, Erich Mielke.

有一个男人，埃里希・米尔克

He ruled the Ministry of State Security

他统治国家安全部

for more than 30 years.

超过30年

He was a scrupulous functionary —

他是一位及其细心的工作者

in his past, he killed two policemen

在过去，他在离这里不远的地方

not far away from here —

杀了两位警察

who in fact personalized the Stasi.

事实上他定位了史塔西

But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?

但是史塔西为什么这么独特？

Foremost, it was its enormous power,

首先，它拥有庞大的权力

because it united different functions

因为它把不同功能

in one organization.

统一到一个组织

First of all, the Stasi

第一点，史塔西

was an intelligence service.

是一个情报机构

It used all the imaginable instruments

它使用所有可想象的工具

for getting information secretly,

来秘密获取情报

such as informers, or tapping phones,

例如告密者，窃听电话

as you can see it on the picture here.

从这张图片你可以看得到

And it was not only active in East Germany,

还有它不仅活跃在前东德

but all over the world.

而是全世界

Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.

第二点，史塔西是秘密警察

It could stop people on the street

它可以在大街上拦住路人

and arrest them in its own prisons.

并且拘捕他们进自己的监狱

Thirdly, the Stasi worked

第三点，史塔西

as a kind of public prosecutor.

工作像一种公共检查机构

It had the right to open preliminary investigations

它有官方开展初步调查

and to interrogate people officially.

和审问人民的权利

Last but not least,

最后一点

the Stasi had its own armed forces.

史塔西有自己的军事力量

More than 11,000 soldiers were serving

超过1万1千名士兵

in its so-called Guards Regiment.

在所谓警卫团中服役

It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.

它被建立来粉碎抗议和暴动

Due to this concentration of power,

由于这种中央集权

the Stasi was called a state in the state.

史塔西被称为国家中的国家

But let's look in more and more detail

但是我们来看更多

at the tools of the Stasi.

史塔西的工具的细节

Please keep in mind that at that time

请记住当时

the web and smartphones were not yet invented.

互联网和智能手机还未被发明

Of course, the Stasi used all kinds

当然，史塔西使用各种

of technical instruments to survey people.

技术工具来调查人民

Telephones were wiretapped,

电话被窃听

including the phone of the German chancellor in the West,

包括西部德国总理

and often also the apartments.

和所在部门的电话

Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened

每一天，9万封信

by these machines.

被这些机械打开

The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people

史塔西也跟踪成千上万的人

using specially trained agents and secret cameras

使用特殊训练的特工和秘密相机

to document every step one took.

来记录一个人走的每一步

In this picture, you can see me

在这张照片里，你可以看见我

as a young man just in front of this building

还是一个年轻人的样子 刚好在这个建筑前面

where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.

就是现在我们在的地方， 照片是史塔西代理照的

The Stasi even collected the smell of people.

史塔西甚至收集人们的体味

It stored samples of it in closed jars

它把样本保存在密封的罐子里

which were found after the peaceful revolution.

在和平革命后被发现

For all these tasks, highly specialized departments

以上所有任务，由高度专业化部门

were responsible.

负责

The one which was tapping phone calls

窃听电话的任务

was completely separated

和掌管信件任务部门

from the one which controlled the letters,

完全分离

for good reasons,

有很好的理由

because if one agent quit the Stasi,

因为如果一个代理离开史塔西

his knowledge was very small.

它的知情度会非常少

Contrast that with Snowden, for example.

如和斯诺登相反 （爱德华・斯诺登，泄露美国棱镜计划）

But the vertical specialization was also important

但是纵向专业化同样很重要

to prevent all kinds of empathy

可用于防止产生任何

with the object of observation.

对于观察对象的同情心

The agent who shadowed me

跟踪我的对象

didn't know who I was

并不知道我是谁

or why I was surveyed.

和我为什么被调查

In fact, I smuggled forbidden books

事实上，我从前西德

from West to East Germany.

向前东德走私禁书

But what was even more typical for the Stasi

但是史塔西更典型的是

was the use of human intelligence,

使用人类智慧

people who reported secretly to the Stasi.

即向史塔西告密的人

For the Minister of State Security,

在国家安全部

these so-called unofficial employees

这些所谓非官方雇员

were the most important tools.

是最重要的工具

From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people

从1975年起，接近20万人

collaborated constantly with the Stasi,

和史塔西长期合作

more than one percent of the population.

人数多于国家人口的百分之一

And in a way, the minister was right,

在某种情况下，安全部是对的

because technical instruments

因为技术工具

can only register what people are doing,

只能记录人们的活动

but agents and spies can also report

但是特工和间谍同时能报告

what people are planning to do

人们的计划

and what they are thinking.

和他们的思想

Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.

因此，史塔西雇佣了大量告密者

The system of how to get them

如它所言，获得他们

and how to educate them, as it was called,

和教育他们的体系

was very sophisticated.

是非常复杂的

The Stasi had its own university,

史塔西有自己的大学

not far away from here,

离这里不远

where the methods were explored

他们在那里探索方法、

and taught to the officers.

教导工作者

This guideline gave a detailed description

这本指引给出详细介绍

of every step you have to take

关于你需要采取的每一步

if you want to convince human beings

如果你想说服人类

to betray their fellow citizens.

背叛他们的公民同胞

Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured

有时，有人说 告密者是被迫

to becoming one,

成为其中一员的

but that's mostly not true,

但这在大部分情况下并不真实

because a forced informant is a bad informant.

因为被强迫的告密者 是糟糕的告密者

Only someone who wants to give you the information you need

只有想给你提供必要信息的人

is an effective whistleblower.

才是一个有效的告密者

The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi

人们和史塔西合作的重要原因是

were political conviction and material benefits.

政治信仰和实际利益

The officers also tried to create a personal bond

工作人员也尝试在他们和告密者间

between themselves and the informant,

建立私人联系

and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows

老实说，史塔西的例子显示

that it's not so difficult to win someone

要赢得某人背叛其他人

in order to betray others.

并不太难

Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany

甚至某些前东德的高层异议分子

collaborated with the Stasi,

与史塔西有合作

as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.

例如伊布拉西・博梅

In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution

在1989年，他是和平革命领袖

and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR

他几乎成为第一个 自由选举产生的GDR首相

until it came out that he was an informant.

但结果他是一位告密者

The net of spies was really broad.

间谍网络非常广泛

In nearly every institution,

几乎在任何机构

even in the churches or in West Germany,

甚至在教堂或者前西德

there were many of them.

都有大量间谍的存在

I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,

我记得告诉过一个史塔西领导工作者

"If you had sent an informant to me,

「如果你向我派一位告密者

I would surely have recognized him."

我很肯定能认出他」

His answer was,

他的回答是

"We didn't send anyone.

「我们没有派任何人

We took those who were around you."

我们使用的是那些在你身边的人」

And in fact, two of my best friends

事实上，我的两个最好的朋友

reported about me to the Stasi.

向史塔西举报了我

Not only in my case, informers were very close.

告密者非常亲近， 并不只发生在我的身上

For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident,

例如，另一个异议分子领袖， 雷恩斯・菲尔德

in her case it was her husband who spied on her.

在她的案例中， 她丈夫是暗中监视她的人

A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.

一位著名作家被他的兄弟背叛

This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,

这令我想起乔治・奧威尔写的小说「1984」

where the only apparently trustable person

小说里仅有的明显可以信任的人

was an informer.

是一位告密者

But why did the Stasi collect all this information

但是为什么史塔西收集所有这些信息

in its archives?

到它的档案室里？

The main purpose was to control the society.

主要目的是控制社会

In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister

几乎每次演说，史塔西部长

gave the order to find out who is who,

会下令弄清楚谁是谁

which meant who thinks what.

即每个人在想什么

He didn't want to wait until somebody

他不想等到某人

tried to act against the regime.

尝试反抗这个政权

He wanted to know in advance

他想提前知道

what people were thinking and planning.

人民的思想和计划

The East Germans knew, of course,

前东德人民当然知道

that they were surrounded by informers,

他们被情报员包围

in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust

因为在这个产生怀疑的 集权主义政体

and a state of widespread fear,

和普遍恐惧感的国家里

the most important tools to oppress people

情报员是独裁主义里面

in any dictatorship.

压迫人民最重要的工具

That's why not many East Germans tried

那就是为什么很多前东德人

to fight against the Communist regime.

尝试与共产主义政权作斗争

If yes, the Stasi often used a method

如果这样做，史塔西经常使用一种

which was really diabolic.

非常残忍的方法

It was called Zersetzung,

它被称为分解

and it's described in another guideline.

它被另一本指引所描述

The word is difficult to translate because it means

这个单词很难翻译

originally "biodegradation."

因为它原意是「生物降解」

But actually, it's a quite accurate description.

但事实上，这是它很准确的描述

The goal was to destroy secretly

目标是悄悄地毁灭

the self-confidence of people,

人民的自信心

for example by damaging their reputation,

例如毁坏他们的威望

by organizing failures in their work,

通过在他们工作中安排失败

and by destroying their personal relationships.

和破坏他们的个人关系的方式

Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship.

考虑到这一点，前东德是 一个非常前卫的独裁国家

The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.

史塔西没有尝试拘捕每一个异议分子

It preferred to paralyze them,

它选择击垮他们

and it could do so because

它之所以能够这样做

it had access to so much personal information

是因为它有大量个人资料

and to so many institutions.

和大量机构资料

Detaining someone was used only

扣押某人

as a last resort.

只是最后的手段

For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,

为此，史塔西拥有17个扣押监狱

one in every district.

每个地区一个

Here, the Stasi also developed

在这里，史塔西也发明了

quite modern methods of detention.

很先进的扣押方法

Normally, the interrogation officer

通常，审问人员

didn't torture the prisoner.

并不折磨犯人

Instead, he used a sophisticated system

反而，他使用一种复杂的

of psychological pressure

中心是绝对隔离的

in which strict isolation was central.

心理施压体系

Nearly no prisoner resisted

几乎没有囚犯

without giving a testimony.

能够忍耐下来不作供

If you have the occasion,

如果你有机会

do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin

请参观在柏林的前史塔西监狱

and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner

并且参加由前政治囚犯 导游的游览

who will explain to you how this worked.

这会解释让你知道这一切是 如何运作的

One more question needs to be answered:

还有一个问题需要被解答：

If the Stasi were so well organized,

如果史塔西组织得这么好

why did the Communist regime collapse?

为什么共产主义政体崩塌了？

First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany

首先，在1989年，前东德领导权

was uncertain what to do against

不知道怎么来应对

the growing protest of people.

不断增长的抗议民众

It was especially confused

它非常困惑

because in the mother country of socialism,

因为社会主义的发源地

the Soviet Union,

苏维埃联盟

a more liberal policy took place.

发布了一个更自由的政策

In addition, the regime was dependent

另外，这个政体依赖于

on the loans from the West.

从西部获得的贷款

Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising

因此，史塔西没有收到

was given to the Stasi.

粉碎暴动的指令

Secondly, in the Communist ideology,

其次，共产主义思想体系

there's no place for criticism.

没有批判主义的位置

Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief

相反地，领导权坚持了

that socialism is a perfect system,

社会主义是一个完美体系的信仰

and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.

当然，史塔西必须证实这个信念

The consequence was

结果是

that despite all the information,

尽管有所有信息

the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,

这个政体仍不能分析自己的真实问题

and therefore it couldn't solve them.

因而它不能解决它们

In the end, the Stasi died

最后，史塔西灭亡

because of the structures

因为这些体系

that it was charged with protecting.

它被用来承担保护职责

The ending of the Stasi

史塔西的结局

was something tragic,

是悲剧的

because these officers

因为这些工作人员

were kept busy during the peaceful revolution

在和平革命期间

with only one thing:

只忙于一件事：

to destroy the documents

毁灭他们几十年来

they had produced during decades.

产生的所有文件

Fortunately,

幸运地

they had been stopped by human rights activists.

他们被人权活动制止

That's why today we can use the files

这就是我们今天能用这些文档

to get a better understanding

更好了解

of how a surveillance state functions.

一个监控国家如何运作的原因

Thank you.

谢谢

(Applause)

（掌声）

Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Bruno Giussani：谢谢。非常感谢你

So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions

所以胡伯图斯，我想问你一些问题

because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.

因为我这里有上一周的明镜周刊

"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.

「我的邻里，NSA」 （美国国家安全局）

And you just told us about my neighbor,

而你刚告诉我们关于我的邻里

the spies and the informant from East Germany.

来自前东德间谍，和情报员的事情

So there is a direct link between these two stories

所以这两个故事有直接联系

or there isn't?

还是没有？

What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?

作为一位历史学家当你看到这个 你是如何看待的呢？

Hubertus Knabe: I think there are

Hubertus Knabe：我觉得

several aspects to mention.

应提及多个方面

At first, I think there's a difference

首先，我觉得

of why you are collecting this data.

收集这些数据的原因不一样

Are you doing that for protecting your people

你做这件事的原因 是保护你的人民

against terrorist attacks,

远离恐怖袭击

or are you doing that for oppressing your people?

还是为了压迫你的人民？

So that makes a fundamental difference.

所以那会是一个本质上的区别

But on the other hand,

但是另一方面

also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused,

在民主国家中，这些 工具也能被滥用

and that is something where we really have

这也是我们需要

to be aware to stop that,

意识到并制止的地方

and that also the intelligence services

还有情报机构

are respecting the rules we have.

也要尊重我们已有的章程

The third point, probably,

第三点，可能

we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,

我们能生活在民主国家真的很幸福

because you can be sure that Russia and China

因为你能确定在俄罗斯和中国

are doing the same,

他们还在做同样的事

but nobody speaks about that

但是没有人提及

because nobody could do that.

因为没有人能够那样做

(Applause)

（掌声）

BG: When the story came out first,

BG：当时一个新闻报道首次出现

last July, last year,

去年七月

you filed a criminal complaint

你递交一份德国审理委员会 刑事起诉书

with a German tribunal. Why?

为什么？

HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned,

HK：是的，我这样做是因为 我提到的第二点

that I think especially in a democracy,

我觉得尤其在民主国家

the rules are for everybody.

章程是对每个人而言的

They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed

它们为每个人定立，所以它不允许

that any institution doesn't respect the rules.

任何机构不遵守这些章程

In the criminal code of Germany, it's written

在德国刑法里面，它写道

that it's not allowed to tap somebody

没有法官的准许

without the permission of the judge.

不能窃听任何人

Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany,

幸运地，它记载在 德国刑法里面

so if it's not respected, then I think

所以如果它不被遵守

an investigation is necessary,

我觉得展开调查是必要的

and it took a very long time that

而且它需要很长时间

the public prosecutor of Germany started this,

让德国检察官开始调查

and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,

并且他只开始于安格拉・默克尔的案件

and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.

而不是所有其他生活在德国的人

BG: That doesn't surprise me because —

BG：那没有使我惊讶因为

(Applause) —

（掌声）

because of the story you told.

因为你告诉我们的故事

Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,

从外界来看，我住在德国以外的地方

and I expected the Germans to react

我期望德国马上

much more strongly, immediately.

给出更强有力的反应

And instead, the reaction really came only

而相反地，这个反应仅出现

when Chancellor Merkel was revealed

当默克尔总理被揭露

as being wiretapped. Why so?

在被窃听时。为什么这样？

HK: I take it as a good sign,

HK：我把这件事作为一个好的迹象

because people feel secure in this democracy.

因为人民在这个民主国家中感到安全

They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,

他们并不害怕会被拘捕

and if you leave this hall after the conference,

而且如果你在会议后离开这个大堂

nobody has to be afraid that the secret police

没有人会害怕秘密警察

is standing out and is arresting you.

站在外面和拘捕你

So that's a good sign, I think.

所以这是一个好的迹象，我觉得

People are not really scared, as they could be.

人民并没有像他们可能那样真的畏惧

But of course, I think, the institutions

但是当然，我认为，相关机构

are responsible to stop illegal actions

要负责制止在德国

in Germany or wherever they happen.

或者在任何其他地方发生 的不合法行为

BG: A personal question, and this is the last one.

BG：问一个私人问题，并且是最后一个

There has been a debate in Germany about

德国内有一个关于

granting asylum to Edward Snowden.

给爱德华・斯诺登提供 政治庇护的争论

Would you be in favor or against?

你会赞成还是反对呢？

HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,

HK：噢，那是一个很难的问题

but if you ask me,

但如果你问我

and if I answer honestly,

而如果我老实回答

I would give him the asylum,

我会给他庇护

because I think it was really brave what he did,

因为我觉得他做的事情真的很勇敢

and he destroyed his whole life

而且他毁掉了自己一生

and his family and everything.

和他的家庭和所有事情

So I think, for these people, we should do something,

所以我觉得，对于这些人， 我们应该做一些事情

and especially if you see the German history,

特别如果你看回德国历史

where so many people had to escape

有很多人不得不逃跑

and they asked for asylum in other countries

他们在其他国家请求庇护

and they didn't get it,

而他们没有得到

so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.

所以给他提供庇护是一个好的迹象

(Applause)

（掌声）

BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.

BG：胡伯图斯，非常感谢你