Hubertus Knabe: The dark secrets of a surveillance state

Translator: Klavdija Cernilogar Reviewer: Andreja Benčina

This year, Germany is celebrating

Nemčija letos praznuje

the 25th anniversary of the peaceful revolution

25. obletnico mirne revolucije v Vzhodni Nemčiji.

in East Germany.

In 1989, the Communist regime was moved away,

Leta 1989 je komunistični režim padel,

the Berlin Wall came down, and one year later,

padel je berlinski zid in leto kasneje

the German Democratic Republic, the GDR,

se je Nemška demokratična republika, NDR na vzhodu

in the East was unified

združila z Zvezno republiko Nemčijo, na zahodu.

with the Federal Republic of Germany in the West

to found today's Germany.

To je danes Nemčija.

Among many other things, Germany inherited

Med drugim je Nemčija podedovala

the archives of the East German secret police,

tudi arhive vzhodnonemške tajne policije,

known as the Stasi.

znane kot Stasi.

Only two years after its dissolution,

Že dve leti po njeni ukinitvi so dokumenti postali javno dostopni

its documents were opened to the public,

and historians such as me started

in zgodovinarji smo jih začeli preučevati,

to study these documents

to learn more about how the GDR surveillance state

da bi izvedeli, kako je deloval nadzor v NDR.

functioned.

Perhaps you have watched the movie

Morda ste videli film

"The Lives of Others."

"Življenje drugih".

This movie made the Stasi known worldwide,

Stasi je zaradi njega svetovno znan

and as we live in an age where words

in ker živimo v svetu, v katerem so besede,

such as "surveillance" or "wiretapping"

kot sta "nadzor" in "prisluškovanje"

are on the front pages of newspapers,

na prvih straneh časopisov,

I would like to speak about how the Stasi

bi vam rad povedal nekaj o tem,

kako je Stasi sploh deloval.

really worked.

At the beginning, let's have a short look

Najprej si poglejmo kratko zgodovino Stasija,

at the history of the Stasi,

because it's really important for understanding

saj je pomembna za razumevanje njegovega koncepta.

its self-conception.

Its origins are located in Russia.

Izhaja iz Rusije.

In 1917, the Russian Communists founded

Leta 1917 so komunisti ustanovili Izredno vserusko komisijo

the Emergency Commission for Combating

Counter-Revolution and Sabotage,

za bojevanje proti kontrarevoluciji in sabotažam,

shortly Cheka.

na kratko: Čeka.

It was led by Felix Dzerzhinsky.

Vodil jo je Feliks Dzeržinski.

The Cheka was an instrument of the Communists

Čeka je bila orodje,

s katerim so komunisti utrdili režim skozi teroriziranje prebivalstva

to establish their regime by terrorizing the population

and executing their enemies.

ter likvidacije sovražnikov.

It evolved later into the well-known KGB.

Kasneje se je razvila v vsem znano KGB.

The Cheka was the idol of the Stasi officers.

Čeka je bila idol za Stasijeve uslužbence.

They called themselves Chekists,

Tudi sami sebe so imenovali Čekisti,

and even the emblem was very similar,

celo emblema sta si podobna,

as you can see here.

kot lahko vidite.

In fact, the secret police of Russia

Pravzraprav je tajna ruska policija ustvarila in vodila Stasi.

was the creator and instructor of the Stasi.

When the Red Army occupied East Germany in 1945,

Ko je leta 1945 Rdeča armada okupirala Vzhodno Nemčijo,

it immediately expanded there,

se je takoj razširila po območju

and soon it started to train the German Communists

in kmalu začela nemške komuniste usposabljati za vzpon lastne tajne policije.

to build up their own secret police.

By the way, in this hall where we are now,

Veste, tu, kjer se nahajamo zdaj,

the ruling party of the GDR was founded in 1946.

je bila leta 1946 ustanovljena vodilna stranka NDR .

Five years later, the Stasi was established,

Pet let kasneje je nastal Stasi

and step by step, the dirty job of oppression

in postopoma prevzel umazano delo zatiranja.

was handed over to it.

For instance, the central jail

Centralne zapore za politične zapornike,

for political prisoners,

which was established by the Russians,

ki so jih ustanovili Rusi,

was taken over by the Stasi

je denimo prevzel Stasi

and used until the end of Communism.

in jih uporabljal do zatona komunizma.

You see it here.

Vidite tule.

At the beginning, every important step

Na začetku so vsak pomemben korak nadzorovali Rusi.

took place under the attendance of the Russians.

But the Germans are known to be very effective,

A Nemci so znani po svoji učinkovitosti

so the Stasi grew very quickly,

in Stasi je hitro rasel;

and already in 1953, it had more employees

že leta 1953 je imel več uslužbencev kot jih je imel Gestapo,

than the Gestapo had,

the secret police of Nazi Germany.

tajna policija nacistične Nemčije.

The number doubled in each decade.

Število se je vsakih deset let podvojilo.

In 1989, more than 90,000 employees

Leta 1989 je za Stasi delalo preko 90,000 uslužbencev.

worked for the Stasi.

This meant that one employee

Tako je bil en uslužbenec odgovoren za 180 prebivalcev,

was responsible for 180 inhabitants,

which was really unique in the world.

kar je nekaj edinstvenega v svetu.

At the top of this tremendous apparatus,

Na vrhu tega ogromnega aparata je bil samo Erich Mielke.

there was one man, Erich Mielke.

He ruled the Ministry of State Security

Več kot trideset let je vodil Ministrstvo za državno varnost.

for more than 30 years.

He was a scrupulous functionary —

Bil je utelešenje uslužbenca -

in his past, he killed two policemen

v preteklosti je nedaleč od tu ubil dva policista -

not far away from here —

who in fact personalized the Stasi.

ki je poosebljal Stasi.

But what was so exceptional about the Stasi?

A kaj je bilo tako posebnega na Stasiju?

Foremost, it was its enormous power,

Predvsem njegova ogromna moč,

because it united different functions

saj je združeval različne funkcije na enem mestu.

in one organization.

First of all, the Stasi

Stasi je bil predvsem obveščevalna služba.

was an intelligence service.

It used all the imaginable instruments

Uporabljal je vse možne načine za tajno pridobivanje informacij,

for getting information secretly,

such as informers, or tapping phones,

kot so ovaduhi, prisluškovanje telefonom,

as you can see it on the picture here.

kot vidite na tej sliki.

And it was not only active in East Germany,

Ni deloval samo v Vzhodni Nemčiji,

but all over the world.

temveč po vsem svetu.

Secondly, the Stasi was a secret police.

Poleg tega je bil Stasi tajna policija.

It could stop people on the street

Ljudi je lahko ustavil na ulici

and arrest them in its own prisons.

ter jih zadržal v svojih zaporih.

Thirdly, the Stasi worked

Stasi je bil tudi nekakšno javno tožilstvo.

as a kind of public prosecutor.

It had the right to open preliminary investigations

Lahko je izvajal predhodne preiskave

and to interrogate people officially.

ter uradno zasliševal ljudi.

Last but not least,

In konec koncev

the Stasi had its own armed forces.

je Stasi imel svoje oborožene sile.

More than 11,000 soldiers were serving

Preko 11,000 vojakov je služilo

in its so-called Guards Regiment.

v t.i. stražnem polku.

It was founded to crash down protests and uprisings.

Nastal je, da bi zatrl proteste in vstaje.

Due to this concentration of power,

Zaradi koncentracije vse te moči

the Stasi was called a state in the state.

je bil Stasi znan kot država v državi.

But let's look in more and more detail

A poglejmo si Stasijeva orodja bolj od blizu.

at the tools of the Stasi.

Please keep in mind that at that time

Ne pozabite, da takrat splet in pametni telefoni še niso obstajali.

the web and smartphones were not yet invented.

Of course, the Stasi used all kinds

Seveda je Stasi uporabljal vse vrste tehničnih pripomočkov za nadzor.

of technical instruments to survey people.

Telephones were wiretapped,

Prisluškovali so telefonom,

including the phone of the German chancellor in the West,

tudi tistemu zahodnonemškega kanclerja,

and often also the apartments.

pogosto tudi stanovanjem.

Every day, 90,000 letters were being opened

Ti stroji so vsak dan odprli 90,000 pisem.

by these machines.

The Stasi also shadowed tens of thousands of people

Stasi je zasledoval na desettisoče ljudi,

using specially trained agents and secret cameras

s pomočjo posebej izurjenih agentov in skritih kamer,

to document every step one took.

ki so ujele vsak posameznikov korak.

In this picture, you can see me

Tule me vidite kot mladeniča

as a young man just in front of this building

pred stavbo v kateri smo zdaj.

where we are now, photographed by a Stasi agent.

Fotografiral me je agent Stasija.

The Stasi even collected the smell of people.

Stasi je zbiral celo človeški vonj.

It stored samples of it in closed jars

Vzorce so hranili v zaprtih kozarcih,

which were found after the peaceful revolution.

ki so bili najdeni po mirni revoluciji.

For all these tasks, highly specialized departments

Za vse te naloge so bili odgovorni visoko specializirani oddelki.

were responsible.

The one which was tapping phone calls

Tisti, ki so prisluškovali telefonom,

was completely separated

so bili povsem ločeni od tistih, ki so nadzorovali pošto,

from the one which controlled the letters,

for good reasons,

kar je imelo dober razlog:

because if one agent quit the Stasi,

če je agent zapustil Stasi,

his knowledge was very small.

je s seboj odnesel zelo malo znanja.

Contrast that with Snowden, for example.

Pravo nasprotje Snowdna, recimo.

But the vertical specialization was also important

Pomembna je bila tudi vertikalna specializacija,

to prevent all kinds of empathy

ki je preprečevala kakršnokoli empatijo z opazovano osebo.

with the object of observation.

The agent who shadowed me

Agent, ki je sledil meni,

didn't know who I was

ni vedel, kdo sem,

or why I was surveyed.

niti zakaj me opazuje.

In fact, I smuggled forbidden books

V bistvu sem iz Zahodne v Vzhodno Nemčijo tihotapil prepovedane knjige.

from West to East Germany.

But what was even more typical for the Stasi

Za Stasi pa je bila še bolj značilna

was the use of human intelligence,

uporaba človeškega obveščevanja,

people who reported secretly to the Stasi.

ljudi, ki so mu skrivoma poročali.

For the Minister of State Security,

Za ministra za državno varnost

these so-called unofficial employees

so bili ti t.i. neformalni uslužbenci najpomembnejše orodje.

were the most important tools.

From 1975 on, nearly 200,000 people

Od leta 1975 naprej je skoraj 200,000 ljudi

collaborated constantly with the Stasi,

redno sodelovalo s Stasijem,

more than one percent of the population.

kar je več kot odstotek prebivalstva.

And in a way, the minister was right,

Na nek način je imel minister prav,

because technical instruments

saj tehnično orodje lahko zazna le kaj ljudje počnejo,

can only register what people are doing,

but agents and spies can also report

agenti in vohuni pa lahko poročajo tudi o tem,

what people are planning to do

kaj ljudje nameravajo storiti

and what they are thinking.

in o čem razmišljajo.

Therefore, the Stasi recruited so many informants.

Zato je Stasi imel toliko ovaduhov.

The system of how to get them

Sistem njihovega rekrutiranja in usposabljanja

and how to educate them, as it was called,

was very sophisticated.

je bil zelo prefinjen.

The Stasi had its own university,

Stasi je imel svojo univerzo,

not far away from here,

nedaleč od tu,

where the methods were explored

kjer so raziskovali metode

and taught to the officers.

in jih podajali uslužbencem.

This guideline gave a detailed description

Napotki so podrobno opisovali

of every step you have to take

kaj je treba storiti,

if you want to convince human beings

če hočete ljudi prepričati,

to betray their fellow citizens.

naj izdajo sočloveka.

Sometimes it's said that informants were pressured

Včasih se govori, da so ovaduhe prisilili,

to becoming one,

da so to postali,

but that's mostly not true,

a večinoma to ne drži,

because a forced informant is a bad informant.

saj je ovaduh pod prisilo bolj slab ovaduh.

Only someone who wants to give you the information you need

Samo nekdo, ki vam hoče dati podatek, ki ga iščete,

is an effective whistleblower.

je učinkovit žvižgač.

The main reasons why people cooperated with the Stasi

Glavni razlog za sodelovanje s Stasijem

were political conviction and material benefits.

je bil v političnem prepričanju in materialnih koristih.

The officers also tried to create a personal bond

Uslužbenci so tudi skušali ustvariti oseben stik z ovaduhi

between themselves and the informant,

and to be honest, the example of the Stasi shows

in če smo pošteni, primer Stasija kaže,

that it's not so difficult to win someone

da ni tako težko nekoga prepričati, naj izda druge.

in order to betray others.

Even some of the top dissidents in East Germany

Celo nekaj glavnih disidentov iz Vzhodne Nemčije

collaborated with the Stasi,

je sodelovalo s Stasijem,

as for instance Ibrahim Böhme.

denimo Ibrahim Böhme.

In 1989, he was the leader of the peaceful revolution

Leta 1989 je vodil mirno revolucijo

and he nearly became the first freely elected Prime Minister of the GDR

in skoraj postal prvi svobodno izvoljeni predsednik vlade NDR,

until it came out that he was an informant.

dokler se ni izvedelo, da je ovajal.

The net of spies was really broad.

Mreža vohunov je bila res široka.

In nearly every institution,

Skoraj v vsaki ustanovi,

even in the churches or in West Germany,

celo v cerkvah in v Zahodni Nemčiji,

there were many of them.

jih je bilo veliko.

I remember telling a leading Stasi officer,

Spomnim se, da sem vodilnemu uslužbencu Stasija dejal:

"If you had sent an informant to me,

"Če bi nadme poslali vohuna,

I would surely have recognized him."

bi ga gotovo prepoznal."

His answer was,

Odgovoril je:

"We didn't send anyone.

"Nikogar nismo poslali.

We took those who were around you."

Imeli smo tiste, ki so bili okoli tebe."

And in fact, two of my best friends

Dejansko sta dva od mojih najboljših prijateljev

reported about me to the Stasi.

Stasiju poročala o meni.

Not only in my case, informers were very close.

Vohuni so bili zelo blizu ne le v mojem primeru.

For example, Vera Lengsfeld, another leading dissident,

Za Vero Lengsfeld, eno vodilnih disidentk,

in her case it was her husband who spied on her.

je denimo vohunil njen mož.

A famous writer was betrayed by his brother.

Slavnega pisatelja je izdal njegov brat.

This reminds me of the novel "1984" by George Orwell,

To me spominja na roman "1984" Georgea Orwella,

where the only apparently trustable person

kjer je edina zaupanja vredna oseba ovaduh.

was an informer.

But why did the Stasi collect all this information

Toda zakaj je Stasi vse te informacije sploh zbiral in arhiviral?

in its archives?

The main purpose was to control the society.

Predvsem zato, da bi nadziral družbo.

In nearly every speech, the Stasi minister

V skoraj vsakem govoru je Stasijev minister ukazal izvedeti

gave the order to find out who is who,

kdo je kdo,

which meant who thinks what.

kar je pomenilo, kdo misli kaj.

He didn't want to wait until somebody

Ni hotel čakati, da bi nekdo skušal izpodkopati režim.

tried to act against the regime.

He wanted to know in advance

Vnaprej je hotel vedeti,

what people were thinking and planning.

kaj so ljudje razmišljali in načrtovali.

The East Germans knew, of course,

Vzhodni Nemci so seveda vedeli,

that they were surrounded by informers,

da jih obkrožajo ovaduhi,

in a totalitarian regime that created mistrust

da so v totalitarnem režimu, ki je ustvaril nezaupanje

and a state of widespread fear,

in obsežno stanje strahu

the most important tools to oppress people

kot najpomembnejši orodji za zatiranje ljudstva

in any dictatorship.

v katerikoli diktaturi.

That's why not many East Germans tried

Zato ni bilo veliko Vzhodnih Nemcev,

to fight against the Communist regime.

ki bi se skušali boriti proti komunističnemu režimu.

If yes, the Stasi often used a method

Če so se, je Stasi pogosto uporabljal res peklensko metodo.

which was really diabolic.

It was called Zersetzung,

Imenovala se je Zersetzung (spodkopavanje)

and it's described in another guideline.

in opisuje jo nek drug priročnik.

The word is difficult to translate because it means

Besedo je težko prevesti,

saj v originalu pomeni biološko degradacijo.

originally "biodegradation."

But actually, it's a quite accurate description.

A v resnici je oznaka kar primerna.

The goal was to destroy secretly

Cilj je bil skrivoma uničiti samozavest ljudi,

the self-confidence of people,

for example by damaging their reputation,

recimo z omadeževanjem ugleda,

by organizing failures in their work,

povzročanjem napak pri delu v službi,

and by destroying their personal relationships.

uničenjem osebnih odnosov.

Considering this, East Germany was a very modern dictatorship.

V tem smislu je bila Vzhodna Nemčija zelo moderna diktatura.

The Stasi didn't try to arrest every dissident.

Stasi se ni trudil aretirati vsakega disidenta.

It preferred to paralyze them,

Raje jih je paraliziral,

and it could do so because

kar ni bilo težko,

it had access to so much personal information

saj je imel dostop do tako veliko osebnih informacij

and to so many institutions.

in do tako veliko institucij.

Detaining someone was used only

Človeka so prijeli samo ko je bilo to neizbežno.

as a last resort.

For this, the Stasi owned 17 remand prisons,

Stasi je imel 17 preiskovalnih zaporov,

one in every district.

po enega v vsakem okrožju.

Here, the Stasi also developed

V njih je Stasi tudi razvil dokaj moderne metode.

quite modern methods of detention.

Normally, the interrogation officer

Ponavadi preiskovalec ni mučil zapornika.

didn't torture the prisoner.

Instead, he used a sophisticated system

Namesto tega je uporabil prefinjen sistem psihološkega pritiska,

of psychological pressure

in which strict isolation was central.

ki je temeljil na strogi izolaciji.

Nearly no prisoner resisted

Skoraj noben zapornik ni zdržal, ne da bi priznal.

without giving a testimony.

If you have the occasion,

Če imate možnost,

do visit the former Stasi prison in Berlin

obiščite nekdanji Stasijev zapor v Berlinu

and attend a guided tour with a former political prisoner

in pojdite na voden ogled z nekdanjim političnim zapornikom,

who will explain to you how this worked.

ki vam bo pojasnil, kako je to delovalo.

One more question needs to be answered:

Treba je odgovoriti še na eno vprašanje:

If the Stasi were so well organized,

Če je bil Stasi tako dobro organiziran,

why did the Communist regime collapse?

zakaj je komunistični režim padel?

First, in 1989, the leadership in East Germany

Prvič, leta 1989 vzhodnonemško vodstvo ni vedelo,

was uncertain what to do against

kaj storiti proti naraščajočim protestom prebivalstva.

the growing protest of people.

It was especially confused

Posebej nenavadno je bilo,

because in the mother country of socialism,

da je mati socializma,

the Soviet Union,

Sovjetska zveza,

a more liberal policy took place.

ubrala bolj liberalno politiko.

In addition, the regime was dependent

Poleg tega je bil režim odvisen od zahodnih posojil.

on the loans from the West.

Therefore, no order to crash down the uprising

Stasi tako ni dobil ukaza,

was given to the Stasi.

naj zatre upor.

Secondly, in the Communist ideology,

Drugič, komunistična ideologija nima prostora za kritiko.

there's no place for criticism.

Instead, the leadership stuck to the belief

Namesto tega je vodstvo še naprej verjelo,

that socialism is a perfect system,

da je socializem popoln sistem,

and the Stasi had to confirm that, of course.

Stasi pa je to moral seveda podpreti.

The consequence was

Posledica je bila,

that despite all the information,

da režim kljub vsem informacijam

the regime couldn't analyze its real problems,

ni mogel analizirati pravih problemov

and therefore it couldn't solve them.

in jih torej rešiti.

In the end, the Stasi died

Na koncu je Stasi propadel zaradi struktur,

because of the structures

that it was charged with protecting.

ki jih je moral ščititi.

The ending of the Stasi

Konec Stasija je bil tragičen,

was something tragic,

because these officers

saj so bili ti uslužbenci med mirno revolucijo

were kept busy during the peaceful revolution

with only one thing:

zaposleni z eno samo nalogo:

to destroy the documents

uničiti dokumente,

they had produced during decades.

ki so jih desetletja zbirali.

Fortunately,

Na srečo so jih ustavili borci za človekove pravice.

they had been stopped by human rights activists.

That's why today we can use the files

Zato lahko danes dostopamo do virov,

to get a better understanding

da bi bolje razumeli,

of how a surveillance state functions.

kako deluje država nadzora.

Thank you.

Hvala.

(aplavz)

(Applause)

Bruno Giussani: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Bruno Giussani: Hvala. Najlepša hvala.

So Hubertus, I want to ask you a couple of questions

Hubertus, rad bi vas nekaj vprašal,

because I have here Der Spiegel from last week.

kajti tu imam izdajo tednika Der Spiegel minulega tedna.

"Mein Nachbar NSA." My neighbor, the NSA.

"Moj sosed NSA."

And you just told us about my neighbor,

Pravkar si nam pripovedoval o sosedu,

the spies and the informant from East Germany.

o vohunih in ovaduhih iz Vzhodne Nemčije.

So there is a direct link between these two stories

Je med tema zgodbama direktna povezava

or there isn't?

ali ne?

What's your reaction as a historian when you see this?

Kaj pravite kot zgodovinar, ko to vidite?

Hubertus Knabe: I think there are

H. Knabe: Mislim, da velja omeniti več vidikov.

several aspects to mention.

At first, I think there's a difference

Prvič, mislim, da obstaja razlika

of why you are collecting this data.

v razlogih za zbiranje podatkov.

Are you doing that for protecting your people

Gre za zaščito svojih ljudi pred terorističnimi napadi

against terrorist attacks,

or are you doing that for oppressing your people?

ali za zatiranje svojih ljudi?

So that makes a fundamental difference.

V tem je temeljna razlika.

But on the other hand,

Po drugi strani

also in a democracy, these instruments can be abused,

pa tudi v demokraciji te instrumente lahko zlorabijo

and that is something where we really have

in tega se moramo zavedati,

to be aware to stop that,

and that also the intelligence services

če hočemo to ustaviti,

ter če hočemo, da bodo tudi obveščevalne službe

are respecting the rules we have.

spoštovale obstoječa pravila.

The third point, probably,

Tretjič, verjetno smo lahko zelo veseli,

we really can be happy that we live in a democracy,

da živimo v demokraciji,

because you can be sure that Russia and China

saj veste, da Rusija in Kitajska gotovo počneta isto,

are doing the same,

but nobody speaks about that

a nihče o tem ne govori,

because nobody could do that.

ker si nihče ne upa.

(Applause)

(aplavz)

BG: When the story came out first,

BG: Ko je zgodba prvič izbruhnila,

last July, last year,

lani julija,

you filed a criminal complaint

ste na nemško sodišče vložili kazensko ovadbo. Zakaj?

with a German tribunal. Why?

HK: Yeah, I did so because of the second point I mentioned,

HK: Ja, zaradi druge točke, ki sem jo omenil,

that I think especially in a democracy,

ker menim, da posebej v demokraciji

the rules are for everybody.

pravila veljajo za vse.

They are made for everybody, so it's not allowed

Narejena so za vse, zato ni dovoljeno,

that any institution doesn't respect the rules.

da jih katerakoli institucija ne bi spoštovala.

In the criminal code of Germany, it's written

V nemškem kazenskem zakoniku piše,

that it's not allowed to tap somebody

da nikomur ne smemo prisluškovati brez dovoljenja sodnika.

without the permission of the judge.

Fortunately, it's written in the criminal code of Germany,

Na srečo je v nemškem kazenskem zakoniku,

so if it's not respected, then I think

zato če se tega ne spoštuje,

an investigation is necessary,

potem je potrebna preiskava.

and it took a very long time that

Zelo dolgo je trajalo,

the public prosecutor of Germany started this,

da je nemški javni tožilec to sprožil,

and he started it only in the case of Angela Merkel,

pa še to le za primer Angele Merkel,

and not in the case of all the other people living in Germany.

ne za vse druge primere ljudi, živečih v Nemčiji.

BG: That doesn't surprise me because —

BG: To me ne preseneča...

(Applause) —

(aplavz)

because of the story you told.

prav zaradi zgodbe, ki si jo povedal.

Seen from the outside, I live outside of Germany,

Gledano izven Nemčije in sam živim drugje,

and I expected the Germans to react

sem pričakoval,

much more strongly, immediately.

da bodo Nemci reagirali veliko močneje in takoj.

And instead, the reaction really came only

Namesto tega se je to zgodilo šele,

when Chancellor Merkel was revealed

ko so razkrili prisluškovanje kanclerki Merklovi. Zakaj?

as being wiretapped. Why so?

HK: I take it as a good sign,

HK: To je zame dober znak,

because people feel secure in this democracy.

da se ljudje v tej demokraciji počutijo varne.

They aren't afraid that they will be arrested,

Ne bojijo se, da jih bodo zaprli,

and if you leave this hall after the conference,

in ko boste po konferenci zapustili dvorano,

nobody has to be afraid that the secret police

se nikomur ni treba bati, da zunaj stoji tajna policija,

is standing out and is arresting you.

ki bi vas prijela.

So that's a good sign, I think.

Mislim, da je to dober znak.

People are not really scared, as they could be.

Ljudi ni zares strah, kot bi jih lahko bilo.

But of course, I think, the institutions

Seveda pa mislim,

da morajo institucije ustaviti nezakonita dejanja

are responsible to stop illegal actions

in Germany or wherever they happen.

v Nemčiji ali kjerkoli drugje.

BG: A personal question, and this is the last one.

BG: Še osebno vprašanje, čisto zadnje.

There has been a debate in Germany about

V Nemčiji je potekala razprava

granting asylum to Edward Snowden.

o dodelitvi azila Edwardu Snowdnu.

Would you be in favor or against?

Bi bili za ali proti?

HK: Oh, that's a difficult question,

HK: O, to je težko vprašanje,

but if you ask me,

a če vztrajate

and if I answer honestly,

in če sem pošten,

I would give him the asylum,

bi mu dal azil,

because I think it was really brave what he did,

saj mislim, da je naredil nekaj pogumnega,

and he destroyed his whole life

kar je uničilo njegovo življenje,

and his family and everything.

njegovo družino in vse.

So I think, for these people, we should do something,

Mislim, da bi za take ljudi morali nekaj storiti,

and especially if you see the German history,

posebej če pogledate nemško zgodovino,

where so many people had to escape

kjer je moralo pobegniti toliko ljudi,

and they asked for asylum in other countries

ki so iskali azil drugje

and they didn't get it,

in ga niso dobili,

so it would be a good sign to give him asylum.

zato bi bil dober znak, da bi ga on dobil.

(Applause)

(aplavz)

BG: Hubertus, thank you very much.

BG: Hubertus, hvala lepa.