Life at 30,000 feet | Richard Branson

譯者: Wang Qian 審譯者: Bill Hsiung

Chris Anderson: Welcome to TED.

克理斯•安德森（克）： 歡迎來到 TED

Richard Branson: Thank you very much. The first TED has been great.

理查•布蘭森 （理）：十分感謝。我的 TED 初體驗到目前都非常的棒。

CA: Have you met anyone interesting?

克：這次活動你碰到什麼有趣的人了嗎？

RB: Well, the nice thing about TED is everybody's interesting.

理：這個嘛，TED 最棒的一點就是每個人都很有趣。

I was very glad to see Goldie Hawn,

見到歌蒂•韓（美國女星），我很開心

because I had an apology to make to her.

因為我對她有點過意不去，

I'd had dinner with her about two years ago and I'd --

大約兩年前，我有幸跟她共進晚餐，

she had this big wedding ring and I put it on my finger and I couldn't get it off.

她有一個很大的結婚戒指，我戴在自己手上一試，結果摘不下來了。

And I went home to my wife that night

晚上我回到家，

and she wanted to know why I had another woman's big,

見到我妻子，她想知道為何我手上有另一個女人的

massive, big wedding ring on my finger.

碩大無比的結婚戒指。

And, anyway, the next morning we had to go along to the jeweler

不管怎麼樣， 第二天我們不得不去珠寶商那兒

and get it cut off.

把戒指剪斷。

So -- (Laughter) --

所以，（笑聲）

so apologies to Goldie.

對不起，歌蒂。

CA: That's pretty good.

克：很有意思的故事

So, we're going to put up some slides

現在我們放幾張投影片

of some of your companies here.

是有關你的幾家公司的

You've started one or two in your time.

當年你從一兩家公司起家，

So, you know, Virgin Atlantic, Virgin Records --

就是維珍航空和維珍唱片

I guess it all started with a magazine called Student.

我聽說這一切，都是從一本名為《學生》的雜誌開始的，

And then, yes, all these other ones as well. I mean, how do you do this?

後來發展到今天的一切。我想問的是，你是怎麼做到的？

RB: I read all these sort of TED instructions:

理：我讀了 TED 演講指南，

you must not talk about your own business, and this,

上面說不能談自己生意上的事，

and now you ask me.

現在你倒來問我，

So I suppose you're not going to be able to kick me off the stage,

要是我回答， 你應該不會把我趕下臺吧？

since you asked the question.

因為問題是由你起頭的。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: It depends what the answer is though.

克：那就要看你怎麼回答了。

RB: No, I mean, I think I learned early on that if you can run one company,

理：不，我的意思是，我早年學到，要是你能經營一家公司

you can really run any companies.

你就可以經營任何公司

I mean, companies are all about finding the right people,

我的意思是，經營公司的關鍵，就是要找到合適的人，

inspiring those people, you know, drawing out the best in people.

激發他們，要知道，就是使他們發揮各自最佳的優勢。

And I just love learning and I'm incredibly inquisitive

而且，我樂於學習，還很不恥下問，

and I love taking on, you know, the status quo

要知道我很喜歡挑戰舊有的窠臼，

and trying to turn it upside down.

喜歡顛覆傳統。

So I've seen life as one long learning process.

所以生活對我來說是一種學習過程 ，

And if I see -- you know, if I fly on somebody else's airline

要知道，就像那天我坐在別人的航班上

and find the experience is not a pleasant one, which it wasn't,

感覺不怎麼自在，真的不舒服，

21 years ago, then I'd think, well, you know, maybe I can create

那是 21 年前， 我當時想，也許我能

the kind of airline that I'd like to fly on.

創造一家讓人樂於搭乘的航空公司。

And so, you know, so got one secondhand 747 from Boeing and gave it a go.

後來，我買了架二手波音 747，小試一把

CA: Well, that was a bizarre thing,

克：呃，這真是一件奇怪的事。

because you made this move that a lot of people advised you was crazy.

一堆人都認為你瘋了才會這麼做。

And in fact, in a way, it almost took down your empire at one point.

事實上，這一舉動差點毀掉你半邊江山 。

I had a conversation with one of the investment bankers who,

一次我和一個投資銀行家聊天，

at the time when you basically sold Virgin Records

那時候，你基本上已經賣掉維珍唱片公司

and invested heavily in Virgin Atlantic,

重點投資維珍航空，

and his view was that you were trading, you know,

那銀行家覺得

the world's fourth biggest record company

用世界上第四大唱片公司

for the twenty-fifth biggest airline and that you were out of your mind.

換來排名第 25 的航空公司，你肯定腦子出問題了。

Why did you do that?

你為什麼會那樣做？

RB: Well, I think that there's a very thin dividing line between success and failure.

理：這個嘛，我覺得成敗僅一線之隔

And I think if you start a business without financial backing,

而且，創建公司要是沒有雄厚的資金做後盾，

you're likely to go the wrong side of that dividing line.

你很可能會被推向失敗的一邊。

We had -- we were being attacked by British Airways.

我們當時面臨英國航空的競爭，

They were trying to put our airline out of business,

他們想讓我們倒閉，

and they launched what's become known as the dirty tricks campaign.

他們發佈了一些下流的廣告文宣，

And I realized that the whole empire was likely to come crashing down

當時，我意識到，我的帝國很可能會毀於一旦。

unless I chipped in a chip.

除非我另闢蹊徑，

And in order to protect the jobs of the people who worked for the airline,

為了保住航空公司員工們的飯碗，

and protect the jobs of the people who worked for the record company,

同時也保住唱片公司員工的飯碗，

I had to sell the family jewelry to protect the airline.

我不得不顧全大局變賣家產以保住航空公司。

CA: Post-Napster, you're looking like a bit of a genius, actually,

克：後 Napster（一種線上音樂服務）時代作風，

for that as well.

此舉還真是天才。

RB: Yeah, as it turned out, it proved to be the right move.

理：是啊， 現在看來這可真是明智之舉。

But, yeah, it was sad at the time, but we moved on.

但當時可是挺傷心的，但我們勇於向前邁進。

CA: Now, you use the Virgin brand a lot

克：現在你的維珍品牌涉及範圍廣泛，

and it seems like you're getting synergy from one thing to the other.

看起來你的各個企業彼此之間是互利共生，具有加成作用的。

What does the brand stand for in your head?

在你心中維珍品牌代表的是什麼呢？

RB: Well, I like to think it stands for quality,

理：我覺得維珍就是品質的代言，

that you know, if somebody comes across a Virgin company, they --

要知道，如果有人恰巧看到維珍旗下的一家公司，他們會 ...

CA: They are quality, Richard. Come on now, everyone says quality. Spirit?

克：維珍就是品質，理查，行行好，人人都說品質，精神層面呢？

RB: No, but I was going to move on this.

理：不是的，但我馬上就會談到這一點

We have a lot of fun and I think the people who work for it enjoy it.

我們的工作中充滿樂子，我覺得員工們都相當樂在其中。

As I say, we go in and shake up other industries,

就像我說的，我們入行就是要撼動其他的行業，

and I think, you know, we do it differently

並且我認為，要知道，我們的方法是很與眾不同的，

and I think that industries are not quite the same

因為維珍進軍了他們的市場，

as a result of Virgin attacking the market.

這些行業從此開始發生了改變。

CA: I mean, there are a few launches you've done

克：我的意思是，你創立的公司有沒有

where the brand maybe hasn't worked quite as well.

運營情況不佳的，

I mean, Virgin Brides -- what happened there?

比如：維珍新娘，它的現狀怎麼解釋？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

RB: We couldn't find any customers.

理：我們壓根就找不到顧客。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: I was actually also curious why --

克：我很好奇的是，

I think you missed an opportunity with your condoms launch. You called it Mates.

我覺得你在保險套商品的發行上錯失了一次機會，你將其命名為「伴侶」（Mates）

I mean, couldn't you have used the Virgin brand for that as well?

我是說，你為什麼不把它也納入維珍名下呢？

Ain't virgin no longer, or something.

是因為不再是處子之身（維珍 virgin 原文意為處子之身），或類似的理由嗎？

RB: Again, we may have had problems finding customers.

理：同樣，這樣做就很難會有人光顧啦。

I mean, we had -- often, when you launch a company and you get customer complaints,

我是說，我們剛開業時總是會收到顧客的抱怨，

you know, you can deal with them.

這些是可以應付得了的。

But about three months after the launch of the condom company,

但在保險套公司運營了三個月後，

I had a letter, a complaint,

我們收到一 封信，一封投訴信，

and I sat down and wrote a long letter back to this lady apologizing profusely.

後來，我坐下來寫了一封很長的信並向這位女士致以最誠摯的歉意，

But obviously, there wasn't a lot I could do about it.

但很明顯， 除此以外我也做不了什麼，

And then six months later, or nine months after the problem had taken,

問題出現的六個月後，也許是九個月後，

I got this delightful letter with a picture of the baby

我收到一封令人愉快的回信，信上附了一張嬰兒的照片，

asking if I'd be godfather, which I became.

詢問我是否願意做這孩子的教父，我欣然答應，

So, it all worked out well.

所以事情進展地還算順利 。

CA: Really? You should have brought a picture. That's wonderful.

克：真的？ 你應該帶張照片來的。這真是棒極了。

RB: I should have.

理：我是應該帶照片來的。

CA: So, just help us with some of the numbers.

克：那麼，幫我們搞清楚一些數據吧。

I mean, what are the numbers on this?

我是說，這些數字是多少呢？

I mean, how big is the group overall?

這整個集團到底有多大？

How much -- what's the total revenue?

盈收是多少呢？

RB: It's about 25 billion dollars now, in total.

理：現在總共大概 250 億美元吧。

CA: And how many employees?

克：有多少員工呢？

RB: About 55,000.

理：大約 5 萬 5 千人。

CA: So, you've been photographed in various ways at various times

克：不同場合下你上鏡無數，

and never worrying about putting your dignity on the line or anything like that.

但你從沒思考過自己在媒體上的形象問題。

What was that? Was that real?

這是怎麼回事？是真的嗎？

RB: Yeah. We were launching a megastore in Los Angeles, I think.

理：千真萬確。我們在洛杉磯開了一家巨型商店，

No, I mean, I think --

不，我是指 ...

CA: But is that your hair?

克：那真的是你的頭髮嗎？

RB: No.

理：不。

CA: What was that one?

克：這又是怎麼回事？

RB: Dropping in for tea.

理：抵達一個茶會場合。

CA: OK.

克：好吧

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

RB: Ah, that was quite fun. That was a wonderful car-boat in which --

克：挺有意思的。那個有趣的車船裡 ...

CA: Oh, that car that we -- actually we --

理：噢，那部車，事實上，我們 ...

it was a TEDster event there, I think.

這輛車是一個 TEDster 做出來的。

Is that -- could you still pause on that one actually, for a minute?

那個不會是 ... 你能在這投影片上多停留幾秒嗎？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

RB: It's a tough job, isn't it?

理：這是個困難的工作，不是嗎？

CA: I mean, it is a tough job.

克：的確是挺困難的？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

When I first came to America, I used to try this with employees as well

剛到美國時，我還習於與員工們一起這麼做呢，

and they kind of -- they have these different rules over here,

但是他們，他們這邊的規矩挺不一樣，

it's very strange.

真是非常奇怪。

RB: I know, I have -- the lawyers say you mustn't do things like that, but --

理：是啊， 我的律師告訴我千萬別這麼做，但是 ...

CA: I mean, speaking of which, tell us about --

克：說到這個，跟大家說說 ...

RB: "Pammy" we launched, you know --

理：你聽說過我們所推出的帕米 (Pammy) 嗎，

mistakenly thought we could take on Coca-Cola,

錯以為可以擊敗可口可樂，

and we launched a cola bottle called "The Pammy"

我們推出的瓶裝碳酸飲料叫帕米，

and it was shaped a bit like Pamela Anderson.

瓶體形狀有點像帕米拉•安德森（美國豔星）。

But the trouble is, it kept on tipping over, but --

但問題是瓶體上半部太重，老是翻倒，但 ...

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: Designed by Philippe Starck perhaps?

克：搞不好是菲力浦•斯塔克（著名法國設計師）設計的？

RB: Of course.

理：真的是這樣。

CA: So, we'll just run a couple more pictures here. Virgin Brides. Very nice.

克：我們再多看幾張圖片。維珍新娘。很不錯。

And, OK, so stop there. This was -- you had some award I think?

好的，這張。我猜，你大概得了什麼獎吧？

RB: Yeah, well, 25 years earlier, we'd launched the Sex Pistols'

理：是的，25 年前我們推出了《性手槍》（Sex Pistols 為英國龐克樂團）

"God Save The Queen," and I'd certainly never expected

《天佑吾王》單曲，我怎麼也沒有想到，

that 25 years later -- that she'd actually knight us.

25 年後女王竟然授予我爵士頭銜。

But somehow, she must have had a forgetful memory, I think.

我覺得她一定記性不太好，

CA: Well, God saved her and you got your just reward.

克：不妨想成是，上天真的保佑了女王，所以你得到了應有的獎勵。

Do you like to be called Sir Richard, or how?

你喜歡被人稱做理查爵士嗎？還是應該如合稱呼比較好？

RB: Nobody's ever called me Sir Richard.

理：壓根沒人會稱我為爵士，

Occasionally in America, I hear people saying Sir Richard

在美國偶爾會聽到有人那樣叫，

and think there's some Shakespearean play taking place.

但我總是會覺得，是不是附近某處莎翁舞臺劇正在上演。

But nowhere else anyway.

但也僅限於美國，除此之外，別無它處。

CA: OK. So can you use your knighthood for anything or is it just ...

克：好吧， 你的頭銜能為你撈到任何好處嗎，還是僅僅 …

RB: No. I suppose if you're having problems

理：沒有， 但我猜當你有什麼困難的時候，

getting a booking in a restaurant or something,

例如：餐廳訂不到位，或是別的什麼。

that might be worth using it.

倒是值得一試。

CA: You know, it's not Richard Branson. It's Sir Richard Branson.

克：要知道，這可不是一般的理查•布蘭森，是理查•布蘭森爵士呀。

RB: I'll go get the secretary to use it.

理：我會讓我的秘書開始這樣叫我的。

CA: OK. So let's look at the space thing.

克：好的， 再來看看你的太空計畫。

I think, with us, we've got a video that shows what you're up to,

我覺得，我們有個影片，可以告訴我們你下一步想幹什麼，

and Virgin Galactic up in the air. (Video)

把維珍星際航向宇宙。

So that's the Bert Rutan designed spaceship?

這是伯特•魯坦 （美國航太工程師）設計的太空船嗎？

RB: Yeah, it'll be ready in -- well, ready in 12 months

理：是啊， 再過個 12 個月，就可以準備升空了，

and then we do 12 months extensive testing.

接下來再做 12 個月的高強度的試飛，

And then 24 months from now,

就是說再過 24 個月，

people will be able to take a ride into space.

一般民眾就可以遨遊太空了。

CA: So this interior is Philippe Starcke designed?

克：那麼室內設計是由菲力浦•斯塔克經手的嗎？

RB: Philippe has done the -- yeah, quite a bit of it:

理：菲力浦設計了一部分，嗯，相當大的一部分，

the logos and he's building the space station in New Mexico.

標誌是他設計的，現在他在新墨西哥州建造太空發射站

And basically, he's just taken an eye

基本上他的想法是一隻眼睛，

and the space station will be one giant eye,

太空發射站就是一隻巨眼，

so when you're in space,

所以，當你在太空中，

you ought to be able to see this massive eye looking up at you.

你應該可以看見這巨眼向上眺望著你。

And when you land, you'll be able to go back into this giant eye.

回程時，你將會回到這隻巨眼內。

But he's an absolute genius when it comes to design.

談到設計，他真是個天才。

CA: But you didn't have him design the engine?

克：但你可沒讓他設計引擎啊？

RB: Philippe is quite erratic,

理：菲力浦有很多鬼點子。

so I think that he wouldn't be the best person to design the engine, no.

所以我覺得他不是設計引擎的最佳人選。

CA: He gave a wonderful talk here two days ago.

克：兩天前，菲力浦帶給我們一段精彩的演說。

RB: Yeah? No, he is a --

理：真的嗎？ 不會的，他是個 ...

CA: Well, some people found it wonderful,

克：有人覺得講得很好，

some people found it completely bizarre.

有人覺得很怪異，但，

But, I personally found it wonderful.

就我個人而言，我很欣賞。

RB: He's a wonderful enthusiast, which is why I love him. But ...

理：他是個妙不可言、充滿激情的人，我很欣賞他。但 ...

CA: So, now, you've always had this exploration bug in you.

克：那麼， 你現在整天都在想著星際探索，

Have you ever regretted that?

你後悔過嗎？

RB: Many times.

理：數不勝數。

I mean, I think with the ballooning and boating expeditions we've done in the past.

我的意思是，以前的熱氣球啊、船啊之類的探險，人們都做過了，

Well, I got pulled out of the sea I think six times by helicopters, so --

我總共有六次從海面上被救援直昇機救起的經驗，

and each time, I didn't expect to come home to tell the tale.

每次，我都沒預期我還能回家講述這段經驗。

So in those moments,

在那些命懸一線之際，

you certainly wonder what you're doing up there or --

你一定會懷疑自己在這兒幹什麼 …

CA: What was the closest you got to --

克：你最驚險的經歷是什麼？

when did you think, this is it, I might be on my way out?

哪次有讓你覺得大限已到、死期將近的感覺？

RB: Well, I think the balloon adventures were -- each one was,

理：我覺得熱氣球探險，次次都是，

each one, actually, I think we came close.

每次，實際上，都挺險的，

And, I mean, first of all we --

首先，我們

nobody had actually crossed the Atlantic in a hot air balloon before,

以前從來沒人坐熱氣球橫跨大西洋過，

so we had to build a hot air balloon that was capable of flying in the jet stream,

所以我們必須設計出能在同溫層噴射氣流中航行的熱氣球，

and we weren't quite sure,

我們自己也是疑慮重重，

when a balloon actually got into the jet stream,

當氣球行駛在噴射氣流中時，

whether it would actually survive the 200, 220 miles an hour winds that you can find up there.

它能否挺過時速 200, 220 哩的高空氣流。

And so, just the initial lift off from Sugarloaf to cross the Atlantic,

所以，當氣球從 Sugarloaf 起飛要橫越大西洋時

as we were pushing into the jet stream, this enormous balloon --

就在上升到噴射氣流區時，那個巨大的氣球

the top of the balloon ended up going at a couple of hundred miles an hour,

頂端以時速數百哩在前進，

the capsule that we were in at the bottom was going at maybe two miles an hour,

但底部的座艙時速卻大概只有 2 哩。

and it just took off.

這還僅僅是起飛呢。

And it was like holding onto a thousand horses.

就好像拉著上千匹馬一般。

And we were just crossing every finger,

我們只好祈求一切順利，

praying that the balloon would hold together, which, fortunately, it did.

祈禱氣球能保持完整，幸運的是，它辦到了。

But the ends of all those balloon trips were, you know --

但每次氣球探險之旅的結果，你知道，

something seemed to go wrong every time,

每次都會出差錯，

and on that particular occasion, the more experienced balloonist who was with me

有一次連跟我一起駕駛氣球的的老手，

jumped, and left me holding on for dear life.

都自己跳傘逃生，棄我自生自滅。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: Did he tell you to jump, or he just said, "I'm out of here!" and ...

克：他有叫你也跳傘嗎？還是只是說：「我走嘍！」，然後 ...

RB: No, he told me jump, but once his weight had gone,

理：不，他有叫我跳傘，但是一旦他跳出艙外，瞬間少了一個人的重量，

the balloon just shot up to 12,000 feet and I ...

氣球就直竄一萬二千呎的高空，然後我 ...

CA: And you inspired an Ian McEwan novel I think with that.

克：你的那次冒險給了伊恩•麥克伊旺（英國作家）靈感。

RB: Yeah. No, I put on my oxygen mask and stood on top of the balloon,

裏：對，不是的，我帶上氧氣面罩站在氣球頂端，

with my parachute, looking at the swirling clouds below,

背上背著降落傘，低頭看著腳下如漩渦一般的雲，

trying to pluck up my courage to jump into the North Sea, which --

嘗試鼓起勇氣，一頭跳進北海，那 ...

and it was a very, very, very lonely few moments.

那一刻真的是太太孤單了，

But, anyway, we managed to survive it.

但不管怎麼說，我們還是活了下來。

CA: Did you jump? Or it came down in the end?

克：你跳了嗎？還是氣球最後安全著陸了？

RB: Well, I knew I had about half an hour's fuel left,

理：這個嘛，我知道我還有剩約足夠半小時飛行的燃料，

and I also knew that the chances were that if I jumped,

我也知道要是我跳的話，

I would only have a couple of minutes of life left.

我就只能再多活幾分鐘，

So I climbed back into the capsule and just desperately tried

所以我又爬回駕駛艙，絕望地試著

to make sure that I was making the right decision.

思考這個選擇究竟是不是正確的。

And wrote some notes to my family. And then climbed back up again,

我寫了幾張便箋給家人，然後又爬出艙外，

looked down at those clouds again,

再度低頭看著這些雲朵

climbed back into the capsule again.

接著又回到駕駛艙。

And then finally, just thought, there's a better way.

終於想到， 還有一個更好的方法。

I've got, you know, this enormous balloon above me,

要知道，在我上頭有這麼一個大的氣球，

it's the biggest parachute ever, why not use it?

這可是有史以來最大的降落傘，為什麼不好好利用一下呢?

And so I managed to fly the balloon down through the clouds,

所以我就試著駕駛氣球穿過雲層，

and about 50 feet, before I hit the sea, threw myself over.

等到距離海平面 50 呎左右的時候，我就跳下去了，

And the balloon hit the sea

氣球隨後也撞擊到海面上，

and went shooting back up to 10,000 feet without me.

然後重新升回萬呎高空，只不過我已經不在氣球上了。

But it was a wonderful feeling being in that water and --

不過人在海水中的感覺挺好的，而且 ...

CA: What did you write to your family?

克：給家人的紙條上寫的是什麼？

RB: Just what you would do in a situation like that:

理：不過是人人在那種情況下都會寫的東西，

just I love you very much. And

像是：我很愛你們，

I'd already written them a letter before going on this trip, which --

其實，在我出發前，就已經給他們寫了一封信，

just in case anything had happened.

以防萬一。

But fortunately, they never had to use it.

不過幸運的是，他們從來不用拆開來看，

CA: Your companies have had incredible PR value out of these heroics.

克：你公司的公關部門可是很看重這種英雄式的冒險精神啊。

The years -- and until I stopped looking at the polls,

這些年來，直到我最後一次看民意調查，

you were sort of regarded as this great hero in the U.K. and elsewhere.

不論在英國國內外，你都可算得上是大英雄，

And cynics might say, you know, this is just a smart business guy

那些憤世嫉俗的傢伙可能會說，你只不過是個很有商業頭腦的人，

doing what it takes to execute his particular style of marketing.

你的所做所為不過是市場行銷的手段罷了。

How much was the PR value part of this?

這其中的公 關成分有多大呢？

RB: Well, of course, the PR experts said that as an airline owner,

理：當然了，公關專家會說作為航空公司的所有人，

the last thing you should be doing is heading off in balloons and boats,

最不該做的事，莫過於跑到熱氣球啊，船啊，什麼的上去冒險，

and crashing into the seas.

還一頭栽到海裏。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: They have a point, Richard.

克：他們說的沒錯，理查。

RB: In fact, I think our airline took a full page ad at the time saying,

理：實際上，我們的航空公司做了一整頁的廣告說，

you know, come on, Richard,

你知道的，拜託！理查，

there are better ways of crossing the Atlantic.

橫越大西洋有更好的方法！

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: To do all this,

克：要做到所有的這些

you must have been a genius from the get-go, right?

你一定是個天才，沒錯吧？

RB: Well, I won't contradict that.

理：我不會否認這說法 。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: OK, this isn't exactly hardball. OK.

克：好吧， 我們不是在玩躲避球，好吧。

Didn't -- weren't you just terrible at school?

克：你當年是不是 ... 是不是學業成績很糟糕？

RB: I was dyslexic. I had no understanding of schoolwork whatsoever.

理：我有閱讀困難，我壓根不懂學校教的玩意兒。

I certainly would have failed IQ tests.

我的智商測驗成績一定很低。

And it was one of the reasons I left school when I was 15 years old.

這也是我 15 歲就輟學的原因之一。

And if I -- if I'm not interested in something, I don't grasp it.

要是 ... 要是我對什麼沒興趣，我肯定學不起來。

As somebody who's dyslexic,

對於一個有閱讀困難的人來說，

you also have some quite bizarre situations.

你會遭遇到某些詭異的狀況。

I mean, for instance, I've had to -- you know,

我的意思是，比如，我不得不 ...

I've been running the largest group of private companies in Europe,

我一直以來經營著歐洲最大的私人企業，

but haven't been able to know the difference between net and gross.

但一直我都沒搞懂淨利和毛利的差別，

And so the board meetings have been fascinating.

所以董事會上總是很精彩。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And so, it's like, good news or bad news?

所以，這到底是好事還是壞事？

And generally, the people would say, oh, well that's bad news.

通常人們會說，噢，那可不是什麼好事。

CA: But just to clarify, the 25 billion dollars is gross, right? That's gross?

克：澄清一 下，250 億是毛利，是毛利對吧？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

RB: Well, I hope it's net actually, having --

理：我倒希望是淨利。

(Laughter) --

（笑聲）

I've got it right.

我應該沒搞錯吧。

CA: No, trust me, it's gross.

克：不，相信我，是毛利。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

RB: So, when I turned 50, somebody took me outside the boardroom and said,

理：在我五十歲那年某一天，有人把我拉出董事會門外，說：

"Look Richard, here's a -- let me draw on a diagram.

「聽著，理查，讓我畫圖解釋給你聽，

Here's a net in the sea,

海裏有一張網，

and the fish have been pulled from the sea into this net.

從海中把魚捕進網裡，

And that's the profits you've got left over in this little net,

這張小網裏剩下的是你的盈利，

everything else is eaten."

其他的都被吃光了。」

And I finally worked it all out.

到最後，我總算弄清楚了。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: But, I mean, at school -- so as well as being,

克：但是， 在學校，雖說身為

you know, doing pretty miserably academically,

成績不太理想的學生，

but you were also the captain of the cricket and football teams.

但你是板球和足球校隊隊長，

So you were kind of a -- you were a natural leader,

所以，你是那種天生的領導人物，

but just a bit of a ... Were you a rebel then, or how would you ...

但有有那麼點 ... 有點叛逆，你自己怎麼看…

RB: Yeah, I think I was a bit of a maverick and -- but I ... And I was,

理：是，我是有點標新立異，但是，我 ...

yeah, I was fortunately good at sport,

幸運的是，我還挺有運動細胞的，

and so at least I had something to excel at, at school.

所以至少在學校的某些領域，我可以竭盡所長。

CA: And some bizarre things happened just earlier in your life.

克：你年輕的時候經歷了不少怪事，

I mean, there's the story about your mother

我的意思是，關於你母親有段小故事，

allegedly dumping you in a field, aged four, and saying "OK, walk home."

據說，她把當時只有四歲的你棄于田野，然後說：「自己走回家去吧。」

Did this really happen?

這是真的嗎？

RB: She was, you know,

理：是的，要知道，

she felt that we needed to stand on our own two feet from an early age.

她認為我們從小就應該自食其力，

So she did things to us, which now she'd be arrested for,

所以她才會這樣做，換作今天，她准會被送到警察局，

such as pushing us out of the car,

例如：她把我們趕下車，

and telling us to find our own way to Granny's,

讓我們自己找到去祖母家的路，

about five miles before we actually got there.

那地方距離祖母的家還有五哩遠。

And making us go on wonderful, long bike rides.

還讓我們騎自行車去很遠的地方。

And we were never allowed to watch television and the like.

她也從來不讓我們看電視什麼的。

CA: But is there a risk here?

克：這麼做也挺有風險的吧？

I mean, there's a lot of people in the room who are wealthy, and they've got kids,

我是說，在座有許多人，家境不錯也有孩子的，

and we've got this dilemma about how you bring them up.

在把孩子代大的過程中，常常會遇到兩難。

Do you look at the current generation of kids coming up and think

你覺得現在的孩子是不是太嬌生慣養了，

they're too coddled, they don't know what they've got,

沒有什麼感恩之心，

we're going to raise a generation of privileged ...

這代人會不會變成坐擁…

RB: No, I think if you're bringing up kids,

理：不， 我覺得當你在教導孩子的時候，

you just want to smother them with love and praise and enthusiasm.

只需灌輸他們愛、鼓勵與熱誠，

So I don't think you can mollycoddle your kids too much really.

因此我真的不認為你能過度溺愛孩子。

CA: You didn't turn out too bad, I have to say, I'm ...

克：你成長得很好，我必須承認，我覺得 ...

Your headmaster said to you --

你的校長對你說 ...

I mean he found you kind of an enigma at your school --

我的意思是，他覺得你在學校不太合群

he said, you're either going to be a millionaire or go to prison,

他說，你日後要麼成為百萬富翁，要麼鋃鐺入獄，

and I'm not sure which.

而他也不確定你會朝那一方面發展。

Which of those happened first?

那麼，上面兩項，哪一項先發生？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

RB: Well, I've done both. I think I went to prison first.

理：我兩樣都做到了，不過入獄在先。

I was actually prosecuted under two quite ancient acts in the U.K.

我是被兩個英國相當古老的法案定罪的，

I was prosecuted under the 1889 Venereal Diseases Act

根據 1889 年性病法案

and the 1916 Indecent Advertisements Act.

還有根據 1916 年猥瑣廣告法案我被定罪。

On the first occasion, for mentioning the word venereal disease in public, which --

觸犯第一個法條是因為我在公眾場合提起「性病」這個字眼，

we had a center where we would help young people who had problems.

那是在一個青年輔導中心。

And one of the problems young people have is venereal disease.

青少年的問題之一就是性病。

And there's an ancient law that says

有個古老的法案規定，

you can't actually mention the word venereal disease or print it in public.

禁止在公共場合口頭或書面提起「性病」二字。

So the police knocked on the door, and told us they were going to arrest us

所以，警察找上門來，說如果我們繼續提起這個字眼，

if we carried on mentioning the word venereal disease.

要逮捕我們，

We changed it to social diseases

我們於是改口稱之為「社會病」，

and people came along with acne and spots,

人們會長青春痘或暗瘡，

but nobody came with VD any more.

但沒人會得性病。

So, we put it back to VD and promptly got arrested.

所以，一旦我們又冠以老叫法就被捕了。

And then subsequently, "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols,"

緊接著， 《去他的胡謅八扯，我們是性手槍》（英國朋克樂隊性手槍專輯名）問世，

the word bollocks, the police decided was a rude word and so we were arrested

員警認為「胡謅八扯」不雅，所以我再次被拘留，

for using the word bollocks on the Sex Pistols' album.

就因為在專輯名稱中使用那個字眼。

And John Mortimer, the playwright, defended us.

約翰•蒙泰莫（英國作家、法官）為我們辯護，

And he asked if I could find a linguistics expert

他問我能否找個語言學家，

to come up with a different definition of the word bollocks.

想出 bollocks（一意為胡謅八扯）的其他意思

And so I rang up Nottingham University,

因此我打電話給諾丁漢大學，

and I asked to talk to the professor of linguistics.

想跟語言學教授談談，

And he said, "Look, bollocks is not a -- has nothing to do with balls whatsoever.

那教授說，其實，bollocks 壓根兒沒「睾丸」的意思，

It's actually a nickname given to priests in the eighteenth century."

那只不過是 18 世紀人們給牧師取的綽號。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And he went, "Furthermore, I'm a priest myself."

他還說：「並且，我就是一個牧師。」

And so I said, "Would you mind coming to the court?"

我問：「你能來法庭為我辯白嗎？」

And he said he'd be delighted. And I said --

他說他很樂意。我說 ...

and he said, "Would you like me to wear my dog collar?"

他問到：「需要我戴牧師的白領子嗎（dog collar 又有狗項圈之意）？」

And I said, "Yes, definitely. Please."

我說：「那太好了，麻煩您了…」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: That's great.

克：真棒。

RB: So our key witness argued that it was actually

理：所以，我們的重點證人辯證道，其實專輯名稱是

"Never Mind the Priest, Here's the Sex Pistols."

《去他的牧師，我們是性手槍》

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And the judge found us -- reluctantly found us not guilty, so ...

然後法官裁決，很不情願的裁定我們無罪，

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: That is outrageous.

克：還真是神了。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

So seriously, is there a dark side?

不過說真的，這事有負面影響嗎？

A lot of people would say there's no way

很多人都說，一個人

that someone could put together this incredible collection of businesses

單槍匹馬根本沒法應付這麼龐大的集團，

without knifing a few people in the back,

除非背地裡捅某人幾刀，

you know, doing some ugly things.

就是，就是幹些不光彩的事。

You've been accused of being ruthless.

你被人指控過心狠手辣，

There was a nasty biography written about you by someone.

有人寫過一本醜化你的傳記，

Is any of it true? Is there an element of truth in it?

是真的嗎？那書裏面有真實的成分嗎？

RB: I don't actually think that the stereotype

理：我並不認為那些刻板印象有用，

of a businessperson treading all over people to get to the top,

從商的人不擇手段，達到目的的說法，

generally speaking, works.

在通常的情況下，不是很有說服力。

I think if you treat people well,

我覺得只要你對人不薄，

people will come back and come back for more.

人們就會回來，並且多次回來。

And I think all you have in life is your reputation

我覺得人生在世，信譽為本，

and it's a very small world.

這世界說小很小，

And I actually think that the best way

而且我認為做一個成功的商人，最好的辦法是

of becoming a successful business leader is dealing with people fairly and well,

做一個講信譽、待人公正的人。

and I like to think that's how we run Virgin.

我認為我是這樣在經營維珍集團的。

CA: And what about the people who love you and who see you spending --

克：那對於愛戴你的人呢？

you keep getting caught up in these new projects,

他們眼睜睜的看著你一直推出新計畫？

but it almost feels like you're addicted to launching new stuff.

感覺起來你好像對於推出新事物上癮了。

You get excited by an idea and, kapow!

你只要一心血來潮，碰！

I mean, do you think about life balance?

你有思考過工作與生活平衡的問題嗎？

How do your family feel about

你家人怎麼看待

each time you step into something big and new?

每次當你著手新的大計畫時？

RB: I also believe that being a father's incredibly important,

理：我也認為當個好爸爸是件很重要的事，

so from the time the kids were very young,

所以從我的孩子很還很小時，

you know, when they go on holiday, I go on holiday with them.

時不時當他們出去度假時，我就跟著一起去。

And so we spend a very good sort of three months away together.

我們就一起渡過了 3 個月的快樂假期，

Yes, I'll, you know, be in touch. We're very lucky,

是啊，我會，你知道，保持聯繫。

we have this tiny little island in the Caribbean and we can --

我們是很幸運的，我們在加勒比海有個小島，我們可以 ...

so I can take them there and we can bring friends,

我可以帶他們去哪兒，還可以邀請朋友們

and we can play together,

一起玩樂，

but I can also keep in touch with what's going on.

同時我也可以與公司保持聯繫，以了解業務進展。

CA: You started talking in recent years

克：你近年來開始演講，

about this term capitalist philanthropy.

主題都是關於資本家的慈善活動。

What is that?

為什麼？

RB: Capitalism has been proven to be a system that works.

理：資本主義被證實是一個能成功運作的系統。

You know, the alternative, communism, has not worked.

要知道， 另一種，也就是社會主義，不怎麼管用。

But the problem with capitalism is

但資本主義的問題是，

extreme wealth ends up in the hands of a few people,

財富高度集中在少數人手中，

and therefore extreme responsibility, I think, goes with that wealth.

因此跟隨財富而來的是責任的重擔。

And I think it's important that the individuals,

因此我認為，對於這些

who are in that fortunate position, do not end up competing

幸運的人來說，要避免互相比較

for bigger and bigger boats, and bigger and bigger cars,

看誰的船大，誰的車好，

but, you know, use that money to either create new jobs

要知道，那錢可以創造更多的工作機會，

or to tackle issues around the world.

或解決世界上很多亟待解決的問題。

CA: And what are the issues that you worry about most, care most about,

克：你最關心的、最擔心的、

want to turn your resources toward?

最想用你的資源解決的問題是什麼呢？

RB: Well, there's -- I mean there's a lot of issues.

理：這個嘛，這個世界存在許多問題。

I mean global warming certainly is a massive threat to mankind

世界暖化絕對是威脅人類生存的一大問題，

and we are putting a lot of time and energy into,

我們注入大量的時間與精力，希望

A, trying to come up with alternative fuels

要麼，找到一種可替代能源，

and, B, you know, we just launched this prize, which is really a prize

要麼，我們推出一個大獎，一個真正的大獎，

in case we don't get an answer on alternative fuels,

以防我們找不到可替代的能源，

in case we don't actually manage to get the carbon emissions

以防我們沒法控制溫室氣體排放，

cut down quickly, and in case we go through the tipping point.

以防事情已經遭到無法挽救時，

We need to try to encourage people to come up with a way

我們得鼓勵大家另闢蹊徑，

of extracting carbon out of the Earth's atmosphere.

萃取出大氣中的溫室氣體。

And we just -- you know, there weren't really people

我們得，要知道，以前沒什麼人

working on that before, so we wanted people to try to --

做過這些事，所以我們想讓人們嘗試

all the best brains in the world to start thinking about that,

匯集世上最優秀的頭腦，集思廣益，

and also to try to extract the methane

同時還要把甲烷

out of the Earth's atmosphere as well.

也一併從大氣層中萃取出來。

And actually, we've had about 15,000 people fill in the forms

有大概 1 萬 5 千人報名，

saying they want to give it a go.

想參與其中，

And so we only need one, so we're hopeful.

既然我們只需要一個解決方案，我們對未來還是懷抱希望的。

CA: And you're also working in Africa on a couple of projects?

克：同時你在非洲也有幾個計畫？

RB: Yes, I mean, we've got -- we're setting up something called

理：是的，我們展開一項叫

the war room, which is maybe the wrong word.

戰情室，好像這名字取得不太好，

We're trying to -- maybe we'll change it -- but anyway, it's a war room

我們嘗試，也許名字得改，不管怎樣，現在叫戰情室，

to try to coordinate all the attack that's going on in Africa,

這個計畫試圖協調、解決非洲的各個衝突

all the different social problems in Africa,

各個社會問題，

and try to look at best practices.

並尋求最佳替代方案。

So, for instance,

比如，

there's a doctor in Africa that's found that

非洲有一個醫生發現，

if you give a mother antiretroviral drugs at 24 weeks, when she's pregnant,

給懷孕 24 周的孕婦服用抗反轉錄病毒藥物，

that the baby will not have HIV when it's born.

產下的嬰兒就不會帶有愛滋病毒。

And so disseminating that information to

因此將這個發現傳播

around the rest of Africa is important.

到非洲的其他地方是極為重要的。

CA: The war room sounds, it sounds powerful and dramatic.

克：戰情室，這名字很有力也很戲劇化。

And is there a risk that the kind of the business heroes of the West

作為西方商場上的英雄，這樣做會不會有風險，

get so excited about -- I mean, they're used to having an idea,

這樣地興奮。我的意思是，作為商人，早已習於各種點子

getting stuff done, and they believe profoundly

解決問題是家常便飯，

in their ability to make a difference in the world.

商人大都堅信，自己有能力改變世界。

Is there a risk that we go to places like Africa and say,

我們到了像非洲這樣的地方，然後說，

we've got to fix this problem and we can do it,

我們要這個問題，而且我們能做到，

I've got all these billions of dollars, you know, da, da, da --

我們腰纏萬貫，你知道的，如此這般，會不會有風險？

here's the big idea. And kind of take a much more complex situation

心懷壯志，一心要解決複雜問題，

and actually end up making a mess of it. Do you worry about that?

但到頭來卻弄得一團糟。你這樣擔心過嗎？

RB: Well, first of all, on this particular situation, we're actually --

理：首先，就這一問題，我們實際上

we're working with the government on it.

正在和當地政府合作。

I mean, Thabo Mbeki's had his problems with accepting

姆貝基 （南非前總統）雖有點難以接受

HIV and AIDS are related, but this is a way, I think,

愛滋病與病毒的關聯性，但是有個方法。我認為，

of him tackling this problem and instead of the world criticizing him,

讓他認清這個問題，而不是指責他，

it's a way of working with him, with his government.

這是與他合作的方法，與他的政府合作的方法。

It's important that if people do go to Africa and do try to help,

如果人們能親自到非洲，身體力行，這會有很大幫助的。

they don't just go in there and then leave after a few years.

不單單只是去待個幾年就回來的那種，

It's got to be consistent.

而是持而久之的那種。

But I think business leaders can bring their entrepreneurial know-how

但我覺得商界領袖可以把他們的企業技能融入，

and help governments approach things slightly differently.

幫助政府以不同角度切入問題。

For instance, we're setting up clinics in Africa

比如，我們在非洲開設了診所，

where we're going to be giving

我們將會提供

free antiretroviral drugs, free TB treatment

免費的抗反轉錄病毒藥物及肺結核治療，

and free malaria treatment.

還有免費的瘧疾治療。

But we're also trying to make them self-sustaining clinics,

同時我們也試圖讓這些診所自食其力，

so that people pay for some other aspects.

所以病人還是要支付其他一些費用的。

CA: I mean a lot of cynics say about someone like yourself, or Bill Gates,

克：很多憤世嫉俗的人說，像你和比爾•蓋茨這樣的人

or whatever, that this is really being -- it's almost driven by

只不過是，基本上是受

some sort of desire again, you know, for the right image,

回報驅使，就是，提高個人形象，

for guilt avoidance and not like a real philanthropic instinct.

減輕罪惡感，而非所謂慈善家本能。

What would you say to them?

你會對這些人怎麼說呢？

RB: Well, I think that everybody --

理：我覺得，每個人

people do things for a whole variety of different reasons

每個人的行為背後都是有原因的，

and I think that, you know, when I'm on me deathbed,

我覺得， 當我臨死在病床上的時候，

I will want to feel that I've made a difference

我希望覺得自己為世界做出了貢獻，

to other people's lives.

為他人貢獻，

And that may be a selfish thing to think,

這麼想也許挺自私的。

but it's the way I've been brought up.

但我就是懷揣這信念長大的，

I think if I'm in a position to

我覺得我有能力

radically change other people's lives for the better,

大大地提高人們的生活品質，

I should do so.

我應該付諸行動。

CA: How old are you?

克：你年紀多大了？

RB: I'm 56.

理：56 歲了。

CA: I mean, the psychologist Erik Erikson says that -- as I understand him

克：心理學家埃裏克森說過，並且我也贊同，

and I'm a total amateur -- but that during 30s, 40s people are driven by

不過我並非專家，他說，人在30、40歲時

this desire to grow and that's where they get their fulfillment.

會渴望成長，這樣會達到滿足的境界。

50s, 60s, the mode of operation shifts more to the quest for wisdom

到了 50、60 歲時，人們會渴望得到智慧，

and a search for legacy.

並留下自己的貢獻。

I mean, it seems like you're still

好像你還處於渴望

a little bit in the growth phases,

成長的階段。

you're still doing these incredible new plans.

你還在著手開展新計畫，

How much do you think about legacy,

你有多看重留名後世？

and what would you like your legacy to be?

你希望自己的貢獻是什麼？

RB: I don't think I think too much about legacy.

理：我沒想過要留下什麼。

I mean, I like to -- you know, my grandmother lived to 101,

我當然想要知道，我祖母一直活到 101 歲，

so hopefully I've got another 30 or 40 years to go.

所以，要走運的話，我還有個 30、40 年可活。

No, I just want to live life to its full.

不，我只想充分利用生命，

You know, if I can make a difference,

為世界做點貢獻。

I hope to be able to make a difference.

我想為世界做點貢獻，

And I think one of the positive things at the moment is

我覺得當下最有利的一點是，

you've got Sergey and Larry from Google, for instance,

比如，谷歌的 Sergey 和 Larry

who are good friends.

他們是我的好朋友。

And, thank God, you've got two people

謝天謝地，有兩個人，

who genuinely care about the world and with that kind of wealth.

真心真意關心這個世界，並用他們的財富造福世界。

If they had that kind of wealth and they didn't care about the world,

要是換作有同樣財富，卻不關心世界的兩個人，

it would be very worrying.

我們就得非常擔心了。

And you know they're going to make a hell of a difference to the world.

要真那樣，整個世界可就遭殃了。

And I think it's important

居高位的人

that people in that kind of position do make a difference.

為世界做出貢獻是很重要的。

CA: Well, Richard, when I was starting off in business,

克：理查，我當年剛開始入行的時候，

I knew nothing about it and I also was sort of --

我一無所知，而且

I thought that business people were supposed to just be ruthless

我錯以為商界的人就應該心狠手辣，

and that that was the only way you could have a chance of succeeding.

只有這樣才能站得住腳並成功。

And you actually did inspire me. I looked at you, I thought,

你今天給了我很大的啟發。看著你，我心想，

well, he's made it. Maybe there is a different way.

他做到了，也許真有另一種成功的方法。

So I would like to thank you for that inspiration,

所以，謝謝你今天給我們的啟發。

and for coming to TED today. Thank you.

謝謝你今天參與 TED，

Thank you so much.

非常感謝

(Applause)

（掌聲）