The secret US prisons you've never heard of before | Will Potter

3,201,028 views ・ 2015-11-09

TED


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翻译人员: Twisted Meadows 校对人员: Ying Li
00:13
Father Daniel Berrigan once said that "writing about prisoners
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丹尼尔·贝里根神父曾经说过
“描写囚犯,就像在描写死人。”
00:16
is a little like writing about the dead."
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00:19
I think what he meant is that we treat prisoners as ghosts.
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我认为他的意思是 我们对待囚犯就像幽灵。
00:22
They're unseen and unheard.
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他们从未被听到和看到。
00:25
It's easy to simply ignore them
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要忽略他们实在太容易了,
00:27
and it's even easier when the government goes to great lengths to keep them hidden.
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尤其是在政府 竭力隐藏的情况下。
00:31
As a journalist, I think these stories
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作为一个记者,我觉得那些故事,
00:33
of what people in power do when no one is watching,
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那些关于掌权者,在 无人所知的地方所做的事,
00:37
are precisely the stories that we need to tell.
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都应该被人们了解。
00:40
That's why I began investigating
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这就是我为什么开始调查
00:41
the most secretive and experimental prison units in the United States,
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美国给所谓的 “二线恐怖分子”设立的
最隐秘、也最具实验性的监狱部门。
00:45
for so-called "second-tier" terrorists.
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00:49
The government calls these units Communications Management Units or CMUs.
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政府称这些部门为 “通信管制监狱”, 也就是CMUs
00:54
Prisoners and guards call them "Little Guantanamo."
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而囚犯和狱警却将它称为 “小关塔那摩”。
00:58
They are islands unto themselves.
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它们与世隔绝。
01:01
But unlike Gitmo they exist right here, at home,
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但与关塔那摩监狱不同的是: 它们就在这里,在我们的国家,
01:05
floating within larger federal prisons.
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悬浮于更大的联邦监狱内部。
01:09
There are 2 CMUs.
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有两个CMUs。
01:10
One was opened inside the prison in Terre Haute, Indiana,
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一个建在印第安纳州 特雷霍特的监狱内部,
01:14
and the other is inside this prison, in Marion, Illinois.
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而另一个,在这个监狱里, 位于伊利诺伊州,马里昂。
01:18
Neither of them underwent the formal review process
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他们中的任何一个, 在被启用时,
01:21
that is required by law when they were opened.
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都没有经过法律要求的 正式审核程序。
01:25
CMU prisoners have all been convicted of crimes.
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CMU里面的囚犯皆被判为有罪。
01:28
Some of their cases are questionable and some involve threats and violence.
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但其中一些案子尚存疑点, 还有一些涉及恐吓威胁和暴力。
01:33
I'm not here to argue the guilt or innocence of any prisoner.
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我不是要在这里 争论囚犯有罪与否。
01:36
I'm here because as Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall said,
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我在这里,是因为 最高法院大法官瑟古德·马歇尔曾说过
01:39
"When the prisons and gates slam shut,
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“当监狱大门砰一声关上时,
01:42
prisoners do not lose their human quality."
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囚犯们并没有丧失 他们身为人的特性。”
01:46
Every prisoner I've interviewed has said there are three flecks of light
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我采访过的每一位囚犯都说,
在黑暗的监狱里只有三件事 给他们带来微弱的光亮:
01:51
in the darkness of prison:
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01:53
phone calls,
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接电话、
01:54
letters
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收信、
01:56
and visits from family.
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还有家属探监。
01:58
CMUs aren't solitary confinement, but they radically restrict all of these
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CMUs 并没有将罪犯隔离关押, 但他们对囚犯行为的全面限制
02:02
to levels that meet or exceed the most extreme prisons in the United States.
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严格到超过了 美国最严苛的监狱。
02:06
Their phone calls can be limited to 45 minutes a month,
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他们的通话时间 被限制在每月45分钟,
02:09
compared to the 300 minutes other prisoners receive.
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而别的囚犯可以获得300分钟。
02:14
Their letters can be limited to six pieces of paper.
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他们的信件来往限制在6页纸以内。
02:17
Their visits can be limited to four hours per month,
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每月的家属探视时间 只有4个小时,
02:19
compared to the 35 hours that people like Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph
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与之相反,就连奥林匹克公园爆炸案 的始作俑者,埃里克·鲁道夫
02:25
receive in the supermax.
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最多都能有35个小时。
02:28
On top of that, CMU visits are non-contact which means prisoners are not allowed
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最重要的是, CMU的探视是非接触式的,
也就是说,囚犯们甚至 不能拥抱自己的家人。
02:33
to even hug their family.
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02:36
As one CMU prisoner said,
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就像一位CMU囚犯说的:
02:38
"We're not being tortured here, except psychologically."
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“在这里,我们确实没被酷刑折磨, 我们只受到精神上的折磨。”
02:42
The government won't say who is imprisoned here.
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政府不会透露 谁被关押在这里。
02:45
But through court documents, open records requests
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但通过法院的文件、 请求公开的记录
02:49
and interviews with current and former prisoners,
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和我们对现任、前任囚犯的采访,
02:51
some small windows into the CMUs have opened.
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我们打开了一些 通往CMUs的小窗口。
02:56
There's an estimated 60 to 70 prisoners here,
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这里大约有60到70名囚犯,
02:59
and they're overwhelmingly Muslim.
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其中大多数是穆斯林。
03:01
They include people like Dr. Rafil Dhafir,
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其中包括Rafil Dhafir博士 这样的人,
03:05
who violated the economic sanctions on Iraq by sending medical supplies
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他因为给伊拉克的儿童 寄送医疗用品,违反了
对伊拉克的经济制裁禁令。
03:09
for the children there.
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03:11
They've included people like Yassin Aref.
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其中也包括Yassin Aref 这样的人。
03:14
Aref and his family fled to New York from Saddam Hussein's Iraq as refugees.
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Aref和他的家人作为难民, 从萨达姆统治下的伊拉克逃到纽约。
03:20
He was arrested in 2004 as part of an FBI sting.
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他在2004年,一次 FBI的行动中被捕。
03:24
Aref is an imam and he was asked to bear witness to a loan,
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Aref作为伊玛目(伊斯兰教长), 曾被要求为一笔贷款做担保,
03:28
which is a tradition in Islamic culture.
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这是伊斯兰文化的传统。
03:30
It turned out that one of the people involved in the loan was trying to enlist
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但后来发现贷款的其中一人
试图招募别的人 参与一场伪装袭击。
03:34
someone else in a fake attack.
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03:37
Aref didn't know.
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Aref对此并不知情。
03:39
For that, he was convicted
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就因为这个,他被判处
03:40
of conspiracy to provide material support to a terrorist group.
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密谋为恐怖组织提供物质支持。
03:46
The CMUs also include some non-Muslim prisoners.
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在CMUs里同样 有一些非穆斯林囚犯。
03:49
The guards call them "balancers,"
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警卫称他们为“平衡者”。
03:52
meaning they help balance out the racial numbers,
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意思是他们的存在 平衡了(囚犯的)种族人数,
03:55
in hopes of deflecting law suits.
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监狱借此逃脱法律指控。
03:58
These balancers include animal rights and environmental activists
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这些平衡者里包括 动物权益和环保主义激进分子
04:01
like Daniel McGowan.
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比如Daniel McGowan。
04:03
McGowan was convicted of participating in two arsons
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McGowan被判决 参与了两次
04:06
in the name of defending the environment
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由地球解放阵线发起的 以保卫环境为名的纵火案件。
04:08
as part of the Earth Liberation Front.
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04:11
During his sentencing, he was afraid that he would be sent
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在他的判决中, 他害怕自己被送进
04:14
to a rumored secret prison for terrorists.
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据说是关押恐怖分子的“秘密监狱”。
04:17
The judge dismissed all those fears,
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法官对他的恐惧不予任何考虑,
04:19
saying that they weren't supported by any facts.
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称没有任何事实可以支撑这一谣言。
04:22
But that might be because the government hasn't fully explained
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但那恐怕是因为政府从未完全解释过
04:25
why some prisoners end up in a CMU,
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为什么有些囚犯会被送进CMU,
04:28
and who is responsible for these decisions.
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而这些决策又是由谁负责做出的。
04:32
When McGowan was transferred, he was told
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当McGowan被递交监狱时,
04:34
it's because he is a "domestic terrorist,"
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他被告知,是因为 他是一名“国内恐怖分子”,
04:37
a term the FBI uses repeatedly when talking about environmental activists.
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这一术语被FBI大量地 用于形容环境保护主义者。
04:42
Now, keep in mind there are about 400 prisoners in US prisons
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然而,要知道: 美国的监狱里
有大约400名囚犯 被分类为“恐怖分子”,
04:46
who are classified as terrorists,
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04:48
and only a handful of them are in the CMUs.
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但只有屈指可数的一些 被关在CMUs里。
04:51
In McGowan's case, he was previously at a low-security prison
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在McGowan的案子里, 他明显是一个低危险系数的犯人,
04:54
and he had no communications violations.
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显然,他也不会有任何 威胁性的通信行为。
04:59
So, why was he moved?
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那么,为什么他会被送进去?
05:02
Like other CMU prisoners,
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像其他的CMU囚犯一样,
05:03
McGowan repeatedly asked for an answer, a hearing,
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McGowan不断地要求
一个回答、一次倾听、 或者一个上诉的机会。
05:07
or some opportunity for an appeal.
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05:10
This example from another prisoner shows how those requests are viewed.
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这个例子来自别的犯人,证实了 他们的申请是如何被审核的。
05:15
"Wants a transfer." "Told him no."
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“希望转移(到别的监狱)。” “告诉他不可能。”
05:19
At one point, the prison warden himself recommended McGowan's transfer
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甚至有一次,监狱长他自己 都建议鉴于McGowan的优秀表现
05:23
out of the CMU citing his good behavior,
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将他移出CMU监狱,
05:26
but the warden was overruled
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但被监狱局与FBI联合反恐特遣部队 合作的监狱反恐部门驳回了请求。
05:28
by the Bureau of Prison's Counterterrorism Unit,
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05:31
working with the Joint Terrorism Task Force of the FBI.
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05:35
Later I found out that McGowan was really sent to a CMU
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后来我发现,McGowan 被送进CMU的真正原因
05:38
not because of what he did,
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不是因为他做了什么,
05:40
but what he has said.
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而是他说过的话。
05:42
A memo from the Counterterrorism Unit cited McGowan's "anti-government beliefs."
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监狱反恐部门的一项备忘录记载: McGowan有“反政府信念”。
05:48
While imprisoned, he continued writing about environmental issues,
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在关押期内,他持续进行 环境问题相关写作,
05:51
saying that activists must reflect on their mistakes
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告诉别的环保主义者 必须反思自己的错误
05:54
and listen to each other.
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并倾听彼此的意见。
05:56
Now, in fairness, if you've spent any time at all in Washington, DC,
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说句公道话,如果你在 华盛顿特区呆过一段时间,
06:00
you know this is really a radical concept for the government.
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你就明白,对政府来说 这可真是一种激进的理念。
06:04
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
06:06
I actually asked to visit McGowan in the CMU.
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实际上,我曾要求 去CMU探视McGowan。
06:10
And I was approved.
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请求通过了。
06:12
That came as quite a shock.
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这吓了我一跳。
06:14
First, because as I've discussed on this stage before,
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一方面,之前我就常在这一领域发声,
06:19
I learned that the FBI has been monitoring my work.
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我听说FBI早就在监视我的工作。
06:23
Second, because it would make me the first and only journalist to visit a CMU.
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另一方面, 这次探视会让我成为
第一个、也是唯一一个 进入CMU的调查记者。
我还从监狱局反恐部门听说,
06:29
I had even learned
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06:30
through the Bureau of Prisons Counterterrorism Unit,
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06:33
that they had been monitoring my speeches about CMUs, like this one.
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他们一直在监视我关于CMUs的演讲, 就像今天这一场。
06:39
So how could I possibly be approved to visit?
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那么,我怎么可能被允许探视的?
06:43
A few days before I went out to the prison, I got an answer.
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就在前几天我去了监狱之后, 我得到了答案。
06:48
I was allowed to visit McGowan as a friend, not a journalist.
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我获准作为McGowan的朋友 对他进行探视,而不是作为记者。
06:52
Journalists are not allowed here.
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记者不被允许出现在这里。
06:54
McGowan was told by CMU officials that if I asked any questions
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CMU的官员告诉McGowan, 一旦我问了一些敏感问题
06:58
or published any story,
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或是在之后发表了任何敏感言论,
07:00
that he would be punished for my reporting.
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他就会为我的报道 受到惩罚。
07:04
When I arrived for our visit, the guards reminded me
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当我来到监狱时, 警卫提醒我
07:06
that they knew who I was and knew about my work.
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他们知道我是谁 也知道我的工作。
07:09
And they said that if I attempted to interview McGowan,
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他们说,一旦我试图 对McGowan进行采访,
07:11
the visit would be terminated.
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探视就会被终止。
07:14
The Bureau of Prisons describes CMUs as "self-contained housing units."
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监狱局声称,CMUs是 “自足的居住部门”。
07:20
But I think that's an Orwellian way of describing black holes.
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但我认为这与奥威尔描述 黑洞的方式没有区别。
07:24
When you visit a CMU,
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当你来到CMU,
07:25
you go through all the security checkpoints that you would expect.
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你经过了所有安全检查的关卡, 这是你之前就能想到的。
07:29
But then the walk to the visitation room is silent.
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但接下来, 通往探视间的路上却是沉默的。
07:33
When a CMU prisoner has a visit, the rest of the prison is on lockdown.
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当一名CMU囚犯接受探视时, 其余的犯人全被关回牢房里。
07:39
I was ushered into a small room,
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我被引导进一个小房间里,
07:40
so small my outstretched arms could touch each wall.
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小到我伸展双臂就能摸到两边的墙。
07:44
There was a grapefruit-sized orb in the ceiling
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天花板上有一个转动的小圆球,
07:47
for the visit to be live-monitored by the Counterterrorism Unit
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方便远在西弗吉尼亚的反恐部门
07:50
in West Virginia.
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实时监控这里的探视。
07:52
The unit insists that all the visits have to be in English for CMU prisoners,
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他们坚持要求CMU囚犯 在探视过程中用英语交流,
07:57
which is an additional hardship for many of the Muslim families.
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这对那些穆斯林家庭来说 显得更加困难。
08:00
There is a thick sheet of foggy, bulletproof glass
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在我面前是一面极厚的、 模糊的防弹玻璃
08:04
and on the other side was Daniel McGowan.
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玻璃的另一侧, 是Daniel McGowan。
08:08
We spoke through these handsets attached to the wall
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我们通过墙上的 电话听筒进行交流,
08:10
and talked about books and movies.
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聊一些书和电影。
08:13
We did our best to find reasons to laugh.
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我们尽力找出一些发笑的理由。
08:16
To fight boredom and amuse himself while in the CMU,
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身处CMU,为了 消磨时间,找点乐子,
08:19
McGowan had been spreading a rumor that I was secretly the president
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McGowan散布了个谣言, 说我是暮光之城粉丝俱乐部
08:23
of a Twilight fan club in Washington, DC
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在华盛顿特区的秘密总统。
08:27
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
08:29
For the record, I'm not.
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我想在这里说清楚, 其实我不是。
08:32
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
08:33
But I kind of the hope the FBI now thinks that Bella and Edward
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但我其实有点希望FBI 会把贝拉和爱德华
08:37
are terrorist code names.
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当成恐怖分子的代号。
08:39
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
在我们探视过程中,
08:42
During our visit, McGowan spoke most and at length about his niece Lily,
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McGowan讲得最多、 最不遗余力地谈论的
是他的侄女丽丽、妻子珍妮,
08:48
his wife Jenny and how torturous it feels to never be able to hug them,
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以及再也不能拥抱她们、 再也不能拉她们手的折磨。
08:54
to never be able to hold their hands.
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08:58
Three months after our visit, McGowan was transferred out of the CMU
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那次探视之后过了三个月, McGowan被转移出了CMU,
09:01
and then, without warning, he was sent back again.
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但之后,没有任何警告, 他又被送回去了。
09:05
I had published leaked CMU documents on my website
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我在自己的网站上公开了 泄密的CMU文件
09:10
and the Counterterrorism Unit said that McGowan had called his wife
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反恐部门称,McGowan曾 给他的妻子打电话
09:13
and asked her to mail them.
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并要求她给有关部门写信。
09:16
He wanted to see what the government was saying about him,
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他想知道政府对他的案子怎么解释,
09:19
and for that he was sent back to the CMU.
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因此他又被送回了CMU。
09:21
When he was finally released at the end of his sentence,
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当他最终刑满获释,
09:24
his story got even more Kafkaesque.
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这个故事又变得更加戏剧性。
09:27
He wrote an article for the Huffington Post headlined,
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他为赫芬顿邮报撰写了 一篇文章,标题是:
09:29
"Court Documents Prove I was Sent to a CMU for my Political Speech."
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《法庭文件证实,我因自己的 政治言论被送进CMU》,
09:34
The next day he was thrown back in jail for his political speech.
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第二天他就又被扔回监狱去了, 因为他的“政治发言”(登报文章)。
09:40
His attorneys quickly secured his release,
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他的律师很快将他保释出来,
09:42
but the message was very clear:
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但收到的信息是明确的:
09:45
Don't talk about this place.
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——“不要谈论这个地方。”
09:48
Today, nine years after they were opened by the Bush administration,
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至今,距离布什政府 启用它们已有9年,
09:53
the government is codifying how and why CMUs were created.
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政府仍在试图将设立CMUs 的原因和方式合法化。
09:57
According to the Bureau of Prisons,
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根据监狱局的说法,
09:59
they are for prisoners with "inspirational significance."
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它们是用于关押那些 “具有煽动意义”的囚犯。
10:04
I think that is very nice way of saying these are political prisons
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我认为这样形容 这些关押政治犯的
10:08
for political prisoners.
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政治监狱非常巧妙。
10:10
Prisoners are sent to a CMU because of their race,
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犯人们因为他们的种族、
10:13
their religion or their political beliefs.
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宗教或政治信仰而被送进CMU。
10:16
Now, if you think that characterization is too strong,
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现在,你可能会 觉得这些判定特征太夸张了,
10:19
just look at some of the government's own documents.
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不妨来看一些 政府自己的文件。
10:22
When some of McGowan's mail was rejected by the CMU, the sender was told
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当McGowan的信件被CMU 拒收时,寄信者获知
10:26
it's because the letters were intended "for political prisoners."
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这些信因为寄给 “政治性罪犯”而被拒收。
10:31
When another prisoner, animal rights activist Andy Stepanian,
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而对别的犯人,像动物权益保护者 Andy Stepanian,
10:35
was sent to a CMU, it was because of his anti-government and anti-corporate views.
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被送进CMU的理由是: 他有反企业、反政府观点。
10:41
Now, I know all of this may be hard to believe,
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我知道这一切让人很难接受,
10:44
that it's happening right now, and in the United States.
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但它确实发生在当下, 发生在我们美国。
10:49
But the unknown reality is that the US has a dark history
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这个不为人知的事实就是, 美国有着一段黑暗的历史
10:52
of disproportionately punishing people because of their political beliefs.
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是根据人们的政治信仰, 区别对待地进行惩罚。
10:57
In the 1960s, before Marion was home to the CMU,
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在1960年代,当马里昂还 没有CMU的时候,
11:02
it was home to the notorious Control Unit.
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那里就有一所 臭名昭著的管制监狱。
11:05
Prisoners were locked down in solitary for 22 hours a day.
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犯人们每天有22小时 被单独关押。
11:10
The warden said the unit was to "control revolutionary attitudes."
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监狱长说,这所监狱是用于 “控制具有革命倾向的犯人”。
11:16
In the 1980s, another experiment called the Lexington High Security Unit
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在1980年代,另一所实验性监狱 名叫列克星敦高安全监狱
11:21
held women connected to the Weather Underground,
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关押着与“地下气象人组织”、
11:24
Black Liberation and Puerto Rican independent struggles.
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黑人解放运动、波多黎各独立斗争 有关的女性。
11:27
The prison radically restricted communication and used sleep deprivation,
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监狱从根本上限制通信交流 并且使用“剥夺睡眠”和“持续光照”
11:32
and constant light for so-called "ideological conversion."
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来进行所谓的“思想转换”。
11:37
Those prisons were eventually shut down, but only through the campaigning
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那些监狱最终都被关闭了, 但那是宗教组织和
11:43
of religious groups and human rights advocates, like Amnesty International.
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像“国际特赦组织”这样的人权倡导者 通过一系列的抗争换来的。
11:48
Today, civil rights lawyers with the Center for Constitutional Rights
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今天,民权律师和宪法权利中心
11:52
are challenging CMUs in court
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都在向法院抗议CMUs
11:54
for depriving prisoners of their due process rights
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剥夺囚犯应享有的正当法律程序
11:57
and for retaliating against them
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以及对囚犯受保护的政治、 宗教发言做出的报复行为。
11:59
for their protected political and religious speech.
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12:03
Many of these documents would have never come to light without this lawsuit.
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如果没有这些诉讼, 刚才展示的许多文件就不会重见天日。
12:08
The message of these groups and my message for you today
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来自这些组织的信息,和我 今天告诉大家的这些信息
12:13
is that we must bear witness to what is being done to these prisoners.
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是为了让各位见证: 我们正在对囚犯们做些什么。
12:16
Their treatment is a reflection of the values held beyond prison walls.
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他们的待遇,反映了 监狱高墙之外的人们持有的价值观念。
12:22
This story is not just about prisoners.
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这个故事不仅仅是关于犯人的。
12:24
It is about us.
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也是关于你我的。
12:27
It is about our own commitment to human rights.
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它关于我们自己 维护人权的责任。
12:29
It is about whether we will choose to stop repeating the mistakes of our past.
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也是关于,我们是否要选择 重蹈覆辙,一错再错。
12:35
If we don't listen to what Father Berrigan described as the stories of the dead,
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如果我们不愿去倾听 贝里根神父讲述关于死亡的故事,
12:40
they will soon become the stories of ourselves.
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那么明天, 那就会是我们自己的故事。
12:42
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:44
(Applause)
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(掌声)
12:51
(Applause ends)
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(掌声结束)
12:53
Tom Rielly: I have a couple questions.
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Tom Rielly:我有几个问题。
12:55
When I was in high school, I learned about the Bill of Rights,
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当我还在读中学的时候, 我就学过“权利法案”、
12:59
the Constitution, freedom of speech,
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“宪法”、“言论自由”、
13:02
due process and about 25 other laws and rights
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“正当法律程序” 和其它25种法律和权利,
13:07
that seem to be violated by this.
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它们看起来都被这事违背了。
13:09
How could this possibly be happening?
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那么这件事究竟是怎么发生的呢?
13:12
Will Potter: I think that's the number one question I get
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Will Potter: 我想这是我整个工作中,
13:15
throughout all of my work,
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要面临的首要问题,
13:17
and the short answer is that people don't know.
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简单来说,答案是: “没人知道。”
13:20
I think the solution to any of these types of situations, any rights abuses,
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我认为想要解决任何 类似的权力滥用情况,
13:24
are really dependent on two things.
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就取决于两点:
13:26
They're dependent on knowledge that it's actually happening
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得让人们真正了解 到底发生了什么;
13:29
and then a means and efficacy to actually make a change.
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还要有切实有效的 行动来促生改变。
13:33
And unfortunately with these prisoners,
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而不幸的是,对这些犯人们,
13:35
one, people don't know what's happening at all
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首先,根本没人 知道里面发生了什么;
13:38
and then they're already disenfranchised populations
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另外,他们实在是 被边缘化的弱势群体,
13:41
who don't have access to attorneys, not native English speakers.
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他们没有代理律师, 也不擅长讲英语。
13:45
In some of these cases, they have great representation that I mentioned,
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在我提到的这些案件里, 他们(受害者)确实已经人数众多,
13:48
but there's just not a public awareness of what's happening.
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但还没有多到,足以让公众 认识到那里发生了什么。
13:51
TR: Isn't it guaranteed in prison that you have right to council
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TR:监狱有保证 犯人有权接触议会
13:54
or access to council?
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或者向议会抗议吗?
13:56
WP: There's a tendency in our culture
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WP:我们的文化里有一种倾向,
13:58
to see when people have been convicted of a crime,
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那就是只要人们被判有罪,
14:01
no matter if that charge was bogus or legitimate,
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无论这是误判还是合法判决,
14:03
that whatever happens to them after that is warranted.
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此后对罪犯做的一切都是正当的。
14:06
And I think that's a really damaging and dangerous narrative that we have,
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而我觉得这真的是一种 破坏性的危险态度,
14:10
that allows these types of things to happen,
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它让这类事情得以发生,
14:12
as the general public just kind of turns a blind eye to it.
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让普通民众对它视而不见。
14:16
TR: All those documents on screen were all real documents, word for word,
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TR:屏幕上的所有文件 都是真实文件,每个字,
14:21
unchanged at all, right?
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都没有被篡改过,是吗?
14:23
WP: Absolutely. I've actually uploaded all of them to my website.
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WP:绝对没有。事实上 我已经把它们上传到了我的网站。
14:26
It's willpotter.com/CMU and it's a footnoted version of the talk,
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willpotter.com/CMU 我对这次演讲的所有内容做了脚注,
14:31
so you can see the documents for yourself without the little snippets.
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你可以直接点击(引用的)片段 查看文件原文。
14:34
You can see the full version.
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你可以看到完整的版本。
14:36
I relied overwhelmingly on primary source documents
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我的调查完全依赖于 最初的原始文件
14:39
or on primary interviews with former and current prisoners,
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或我对现任/前任犯人的第一手采访,
14:42
with people that are dealing with this situation every day.
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那些犯人是每天 都在面对这一状况的人。
14:45
And like I said, I've been there myself, as well.
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而且我也说过了, 我自己也亲身去过那里。
14:47
TR: You're doing courageous work.
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TR:你在从事一项非常勇敢的工作。
14:49
WP: Thank you very much. Thank you all.
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WP:非常感谢。感谢大家。
14:51
(Applause)
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(掌声)
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