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譯者: Harry Chen
審譯者: Xiaoxiang Wang
00:13
Father Daniel Berrigan once said
that "writing about prisoners
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貝瑞岡神父曾說過:
「側寫囚犯有點像在側寫死人。」
00:16
is a little like writing about the dead."
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00:19
I think what he meant is that
we treat prisoners as ghosts.
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我認為他所指的是
我們對待囚犯好比鬼魂一樣,
00:22
They're unseen and unheard.
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他們是不被看見、聽到的;
00:25
It's easy to simply ignore them
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單單要忽略他們已是很容易的事,
00:27
and it's even easier when the government
goes to great lengths to keep them hidden.
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而當政府竭盡所能地掩蓋這群人的存在時,
我們就更容易忽略他們了。
00:31
As a journalist, I think these stories
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身為一名記者
我認為當沒人注意時握有權力的人
做了什麼事情的這些報導
00:33
of what people in power do
when no one is watching,
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00:37
are precisely the stories
that we need to tell.
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正是我們需要講出來的報導,
00:40
That's why I began investigating
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那是我為什麼開始調查
00:41
the most secretive and experimental
prison units in the United States,
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在美國裡最隱密和試驗型的監獄單位,
00:45
for so-called "second-tier" terrorists.
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給所謂「次級恐怖份子」的人來用;
00:49
The government calls these units
Communications Management Units or CMUs.
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政府稱呼這些單位為
互動聯絡管理單位或叫 CMU,
00:54
Prisoners and guards call them
"Little Guantanamo."
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犯人和警衛們叫它們「小關塔那摩」。
00:58
They are islands unto themselves.
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它們就是自家上面的島嶼,
01:01
But unlike Gitmo they exist
right here, at home,
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但是不像關塔那摩 -
它們存在於這裡、在我們的家門裡,
01:05
floating within larger federal prisons.
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漂泊在更大的聯邦監獄裡。
01:09
There are 2 CMUs.
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有著兩個 CMU:
01:10
One was opened inside the prison
in Terre Haute, Indiana,
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一個啟用在印地安納州
特雷霍特的監獄裡面,
01:14
and the other is inside this prison,
in Marion, Illinois.
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還有另一個啟用在伊利諾州
馬里昂的監獄裡面;
01:18
Neither of them underwent
the formal review process
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當它們兩個受啟用時
01:21
that is required by law
when they were opened.
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全都沒有遵照法律規定的正式審查程序。
01:25
CMU prisoners have all
been convicted of crimes.
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CMU 的囚犯全都已經定罪完了,
01:28
Some of their cases are questionable
and some involve threats and violence.
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有一些案例啟人疑竇,
而有一些則涉及脅迫與暴力;
01:33
I'm not here to argue the guilt
or innocence of any prisoner.
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我不是要在這裡爭論
任何受刑人有罪或是冤枉,
01:36
I'm here because as Supreme Court Justice
Thurgood Marshall said,
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我在這邊是因為如同最高法院法官
瑟古德.馬歇爾曾說過:
01:39
"When the prisons and gates slam shut,
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「當監獄與門道砰然關閉,
01:42
prisoners do not lose
their human quality."
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囚犯們並未失去他們的人權」。
01:46
Every prisoner I've interviewed
has said there are three flecks of light
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每一位我曾經訪問過的囚犯都說
在監獄的沉黑裡
01:51
in the darkness of prison:
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有著三個小光點:
01:53
phone calls,
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電話、信函以及家人探視,
01:54
letters
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01:56
and visits from family.
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01:58
CMUs aren't solitary confinement,
but they radically restrict all of these
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CMU 並非單人拘禁不過它們
偏激地侷限所有這些事項,
02:02
to levels that meet or exceed the most
extreme prisons in the United States.
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達到甚或超出在美國
最極端之監獄的水準。
02:06
Their phone calls can be limited
to 45 minutes a month,
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它的電話能被設限在
1 個月是 45 分鐘,
02:09
compared to the 300 minutes
other prisoners receive.
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對比於其他囚犯所得到的 300 分鐘、
02:14
Their letters can be limited
to six pieces of paper.
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它的信函能被設限在六張紙、
02:17
Their visits can be limited
to four hours per month,
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它的探視能被設限在每月 4 個小時,
02:19
compared to the 35 hours that people
like Olympic Park bomber Eric Rudolph
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對比於奧林匹克公園炸彈客
艾瑞克.魯多夫
02:25
receive in the supermax.
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最多所獲得的 35 個小時。
02:28
On top of that, CMU visits are non-contact
which means prisoners are not allowed
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更甚者 CMU 的探視是無法肢體碰觸的,
這表示囚犯就連擁抱家人也不被寬容;
02:33
to even hug their family.
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02:36
As one CMU prisoner said,
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如同一位 CMU 的囚犯曾講過的,
02:38
"We're not being tortured here,
except psychologically."
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「我們在這裡並未受到折磨,
除了心理上來說」。
02:42
The government won't say
who is imprisoned here.
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政府不會告知你誰被關在這裡面,
02:45
But through court documents,
open records requests
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但是透過法庭公文、申請公開紀錄、
02:49
and interviews with current
and former prisoners,
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採訪當今和前囚犯,
02:51
some small windows
into the CMUs have opened.
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些許探進 CMU 的窗口已經打開了。
02:56
There's an estimated
60 to 70 prisoners here,
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那邊被估計有著 60 到 70 位囚犯,
02:59
and they're overwhelmingly Muslim.
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而且絕大多數是穆斯林,
03:01
They include people like Dr. Rafil Dhafir,
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他們裡面包括了像是
拉斐爾.達菲爾醫生,
03:05
who violated the economic sanctions
on Iraq by sending medical supplies
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他違反了對伊拉克的經濟制裁 -
為了那邊的小孩寄送醫療用品過去。
03:09
for the children there.
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03:11
They've included people like Yassin Aref.
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他們曾經包括像是亞辛.埃勒夫,
03:14
Aref and his family fled to New York
from Saddam Hussein's Iraq as refugees.
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埃勒夫和他的家人從海珊的伊拉克
充做難民逃往紐約,
03:20
He was arrested in 2004
as part of an FBI sting.
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他在 2004 年被逮捕是 FBI
臥底行動的一部份,
03:24
Aref is an imam and he was asked
to bear witness to a loan,
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埃勒夫是個伊瑪目
而他受邀見證一筆貸款,
03:28
which is a tradition in Islamic culture.
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此為伊斯蘭文化裡的傳統,
03:30
It turned out that one of the people
involved in the loan was trying to enlist
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結果該貸款所涉入的其中一人企圖列進
03:34
someone else in a fake attack.
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在一場虛假攻擊中某人的名字,
03:37
Aref didn't know.
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埃勒夫並不知情,
03:39
For that, he was convicted
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因為那樣他被定罪於間諜和
提供物資協助給恐怖份子團體。
03:40
of conspiracy to provide material support
to a terrorist group.
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03:46
The CMUs also include
some non-Muslim prisoners.
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CMU 也包含了一些非穆斯林囚犯,
03:49
The guards call them "balancers,"
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警衛們叫他們「中和成分」-
03:52
meaning they help balance out
the racial numbers,
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表示他們有助於平衡族群的人數,
03:55
in hopes of deflecting law suits.
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寄望偏移法律告訴;
03:58
These balancers include animal rights
and environmental activists
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這些中和成分包含了動物權與
環保運動人士,
04:01
like Daniel McGowan.
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像是丹尼爾.麥加文。
04:03
McGowan was convicted
of participating in two arsons
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麥加文被定罪於參與了兩場
04:06
in the name of defending the environment
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「大地自由前線」以
護守環境為名的縱火案,
04:08
as part of the Earth Liberation Front.
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04:11
During his sentencing, he was afraid
that he would be sent
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在判刑的期間裡他擔心他可能會被送到
04:14
to a rumored secret prison for terrorists.
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謠傳中給恐怖分子用的隱密監獄,
04:17
The judge dismissed all those fears,
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法官消除了所有那些恐懼,
04:19
saying that they
weren't supported by any facts.
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說它們未受到任何事實的佐證。
04:22
But that might be because the government
hasn't fully explained
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不過那可能是因為政府還未詳實地解釋
04:25
why some prisoners end up in a CMU,
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為什麼有些囚犯最終到了 CMU 裡?
04:28
and who is responsible
for these decisions.
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以及誰對這些決定有負責的?
04:32
When McGowan was transferred, he was told
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當麥加文被移送時他被告知
04:34
it's because he is a "domestic terrorist,"
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那是因為他是個「國內恐怖分子」,
04:37
a term the FBI uses repeatedly when
talking about environmental activists.
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當提到環保運動人士時
FBI 再三用到的術語。
04:42
Now, keep in mind there are about 400
prisoners in US prisons
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現在記清楚了大概有著
400 個囚犯在美國的監獄裡,
04:46
who are classified as terrorists,
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這些人被分類為恐怖分子,
04:48
and only a handful of them
are in the CMUs.
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而且其中只有一小部份在 CMU 裡面;
04:51
In McGowan's case, he was previously
at a low-security prison
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麥加文的案例他早先是在
一間低度戒備的監獄,
04:54
and he had no communications violations.
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而且他沒有違反互動聯絡的規定,
04:59
So, why was he moved?
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所以為什麼他會被調移呢?
05:02
Like other CMU prisoners,
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就像其他 CMU 的囚犯,
05:03
McGowan repeatedly asked
for an answer, a hearing,
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麥加文不斷重複地要求
一個解答、一場聽證會、
05:07
or some opportunity for an appeal.
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或是一次上訴的些許機會,
05:10
This example from another prisoner
shows how those requests are viewed.
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來自另一個囚犯的這個例子
表明了那些申請如何被看待 -
05:15
"Wants a transfer." "Told him no."
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要移監!告訴他「不行」!
05:19
At one point, the prison warden himself
recommended McGowan's transfer
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有一度監獄典獄長本人提議讓麥加文
05:23
out of the CMU citing his good behavior,
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轉出 CMU 來表彰他良好的行為,
05:26
but the warden was overruled
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不過該典獄長被聯邦監獄局
反恐單位打了回票,
05:28
by the Bureau of Prison's
Counterterrorism Unit,
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05:31
working with the Joint Terrorism
Task Force of the FBI.
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該單位與 FBI 聯合反恐
任務部隊在合作。
05:35
Later I found out that McGowan
was really sent to a CMU
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後來我發現到麥加文真正被送到 CMU
不是因為他做過什麼,
05:38
not because of what he did,
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05:40
but what he has said.
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卻是他說話的內容;
05:42
A memo from the Counterterrorism Unit
cited McGowan's "anti-government beliefs."
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出自反恐單位的備忘錄
引述了麥加文的反政府信念,
05:48
While imprisoned, he continued writing
about environmental issues,
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在坐牢期間他繼續著述環境議題,
05:51
saying that activists must
reflect on their mistakes
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說活動人士必須認真思考他們的錯誤,
05:54
and listen to each other.
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以及聽別人怎麼講。
05:56
Now, in fairness, if you've spent
any time at all in Washington, DC,
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持平來說如果你曾經待過
華盛頓特區任何一些時間,
06:00
you know this is really a radical
concept for the government.
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你就知道對政府而言
這真的是激進的想法啊!
06:04
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
06:06
I actually asked to visit
McGowan in the CMU.
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我確實請求過要在
CMU 裡探視麥加文,
06:10
And I was approved.
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而且我就獲准了;
06:12
That came as quite a shock.
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那真的相當令人吃驚,
06:14
First, because as I've discussed
on this stage before,
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首先因為如同我已經在
這個講台上討論過的,
06:19
I learned that the FBI has been
monitoring my work.
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我早知道 FBI 一直在監看著我的工作,
06:23
Second, because it would make me the first
and only journalist to visit a CMU.
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第二、這會使我成為第一個
以及唯一探訪過 CMU 的記者。
06:29
I had even learned
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我甚至已從聯邦監獄局的反恐單位得知
06:30
through the Bureau of Prisons
Counterterrorism Unit,
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06:33
that they had been monitoring my speeches
about CMUs, like this one.
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他們早已一直在監看我有關
CMU 的言論 - 就像這一個,
06:39
So how could I possibly
be approved to visit?
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所以我怎麼有可能獲准探訪呢?
06:43
A few days before I went
out to the prison, I got an answer.
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在我出門去監獄的幾天前
我得到答案了。
06:48
I was allowed to visit McGowan
as a friend, not a journalist.
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我被允許當成朋友而非記者
去探視麥加文,
06:52
Journalists are not allowed here.
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記者是不准進這邊的;
06:54
McGowan was told by CMU officials
that if I asked any questions
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CMU 的官員告訴麥加文
如果我詢問了任何問題
06:58
or published any story,
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或是發表任何新聞 -
07:00
that he would be punished
for my reporting.
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他將會為了我的報導而受罰。
07:04
When I arrived for our visit,
the guards reminded me
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當我為了探視抵達時警衛們提醒我,
07:06
that they knew who I was
and knew about my work.
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說他們知道我是誰以及我的工作,
07:09
And they said that if I attempted
to interview McGowan,
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而且他們還說假使我意圖
訪問麥加文的話,
07:11
the visit would be terminated.
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這場探視就會被中斷。
07:14
The Bureau of Prisons describes CMUs
as "self-contained housing units."
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聯邦監獄局形容 CMU 等同
「自我閉鎖的房舍單位」,
07:20
But I think that's an Orwellian way
of describing black holes.
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不過我認為那是歐威爾式的
方法來形容黑洞;
07:24
When you visit a CMU,
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當你探視 CMU 時
07:25
you go through all the security
checkpoints that you would expect.
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你會走完所有你預期想到的檢查哨,
07:29
But then the walk
to the visitation room is silent.
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但是之後進入會客室的步履是一片寂然。
07:33
When a CMU prisoner has a visit,
the rest of the prison is on lockdown.
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當 CMU 囚犯有人探視時,
其餘的囚犯就是被鎖起來了,
07:39
I was ushered into a small room,
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我被引領進一個小房間,
07:40
so small my outstretched arms
could touch each wall.
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我伸展開的手臂能夠碰到
各面牆壁如此的小間,
07:44
There was a grapefruit-sized
orb in the ceiling
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那裡有個葡萄般大小的
球狀體在天花板上,
07:47
for the visit to be live-monitored
by the Counterterrorism Unit
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為了讓該探視被位於
西維吉尼亞的反恐單位即時監看;
07:50
in West Virginia.
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07:52
The unit insists that all the visits
have to be in English for CMU prisoners,
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該單位堅持對 CMU 囚犯
所有的探視必須使用英文,
07:57
which is an additional hardship
for many of the Muslim families.
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此點對許多穆斯林家庭來說
是額外的難關。
08:00
There is a thick sheet of foggy,
bulletproof glass
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那裡有著一片霧面的防彈玻璃,
08:04
and on the other side was Daniel McGowan.
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而且麥加文就在另一頭,
08:08
We spoke through these handsets
attached to the wall
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我們透過裝在牆上的電話聽筒講話,
08:10
and talked about books and movies.
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談論著書籍和電影,
08:13
We did our best to find reasons to laugh.
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我們盡一切努力找到理由來笑;
08:16
To fight boredom and amuse himself
while in the CMU,
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在 CMU 裡面的時候
為了打破沉悶以及自娛,
08:19
McGowan had been spreading a rumor
that I was secretly the president
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麥加文不斷播送一個謠言:
「我是華盛頓特區暮光之城
影迷會的不為人知的會長,
08:23
of a Twilight fan club in Washington, DC
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08:27
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:29
For the record, I'm not.
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在書面紀錄上不是我而已,
08:32
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:33
But I kind of the hope the FBI
now thinks that Bella and Edward
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不過我有點希望 FBI 現在認為
貝拉還有艾德華是恐怖份子的代號!
08:37
are terrorist code names.
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08:39
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:42
During our visit, McGowan spoke most
and at length about his niece Lily,
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在我們的會面裡麥加文談到最多、
最長的是他的姪女莉莉、他的老婆珍妮,
08:48
his wife Jenny and how torturous
it feels to never be able to hug them,
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以及永遠沒辦法去擁抱她們、
08:54
to never be able to hold their hands.
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親執她們的雙手感覺有多麼折騰。
08:58
Three months after our visit, McGowan
was transferred out of the CMU
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在我們的會面的三個月後
麥加文被轉出了 CMU,
09:01
and then, without warning,
he was sent back again.
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接著完全沒有警訊,他再次被送回去了;
09:05
I had published leaked
CMU documents on my website
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我已經在我的網站上公開發表過
外流的 CMU 的公文資料,
09:10
and the Counterterrorism Unit said
that McGowan had called his wife
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還有反恐單位說麥加文曾經致電他的妻子
09:13
and asked her to mail them.
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請求她把它們寄出,
09:16
He wanted to see what the government
was saying about him,
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他想要知道政府將會如何說他,
09:19
and for that he was sent back to the CMU.
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因為這樣他被送回了 CMU。
09:21
When he was finally released
at the end of his sentence,
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當他終於在他刑期結束被釋放了出來,
09:24
his story got even more Kafkaesque.
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他的事蹟變得甚至更加「卡夫卡式」,
09:27
He wrote an article
for the Huffington Post headlined,
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他寫出一篇文章給赫芬頓郵報做標題為
09:29
"Court Documents Prove I was Sent to
a CMU for my Political Speech."
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「法庭文件證實因為我的政治言論
我被送去了 CMU !」 。
09:34
The next day he was thrown
back in jail for his political speech.
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隔天就為了他的政治言論
他被逮回監獄裡去,
09:40
His attorneys quickly secured his release,
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他的律師迅速地確保了他的開釋,
09:42
but the message was very clear:
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不過訊息非常明確 -
09:45
Don't talk about this place.
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不要講到這地方。
09:48
Today, nine years after they were opened
by the Bush administration,
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在它們被布希政府啟用九年後的今天,
09:53
the government is codifying
how and why CMUs were created.
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政府正在將 CMU 如何以及
為什麼被創造出來建立規章,
09:57
According to the Bureau of Prisons,
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根據聯邦監獄局所指
09:59
they are for prisoners
with "inspirational significance."
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它們是用來關帶有
鼓舞型特別意義的囚犯,
10:04
I think that is very nice way of saying
these are political prisons
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我認為這是非常棒的方式來說
這些單位是用來關政治犯的政治監獄。
10:08
for political prisoners.
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10:10
Prisoners are sent to a CMU
because of their race,
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囚犯們被送往 CMU 是因為其種族、
10:13
their religion or their
political beliefs.
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宗教信仰或是政治理念,
10:16
Now, if you think that
characterization is too strong,
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此刻要是你認為該特點強烈到不行,
10:19
just look at some
of the government's own documents.
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看一些政府自己的公文就好;
10:22
When some of McGowan's mail was rejected
by the CMU, the sender was told
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當部份麥加文的信件
被 CMU 拒收的時候,
10:26
it's because the letters were intended
"for political prisoners."
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寄件人被告知那是因為信函
蓄意要給政治犯的。
10:31
When another prisoner, animal rights
activist Andy Stepanian,
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另一個囚犯 - 動物權運動人士
安迪.史迪佩尼恩
10:35
was sent to a CMU, it was because of his
anti-government and anti-corporate views.
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被送到 CMU 是因為他的
反政府以及反企業觀點。
10:41
Now, I know all of this
may be hard to believe,
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我知道這所有一切很難置信,
10:44
that it's happening right now,
and in the United States.
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此時此刻在美國它持續發生中,
10:49
But the unknown reality
is that the US has a dark history
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不過沒人知道的現實
是美國因為政治上的信仰
有著過度地處罰人民的黑暗歷史。
10:52
of disproportionately punishing people
because of their political beliefs.
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10:57
In the 1960s, before Marion
was home to the CMU,
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在 1960 年代早在馬里昂
是 CMU 的所在地前,
11:02
it was home to the notorious Control Unit.
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它是惡名昭彰的超級戒備單位監獄,
11:05
Prisoners were locked down
in solitary for 22 hours a day.
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囚犯一天被鎖在緊閉室 22 個小時,
11:10
The warden said the unit
was to "control revolutionary attitudes."
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典獄長曾經說該單位是要管控
具顛覆現狀的品行。
11:16
In the 1980s, another experiment called
the Lexington High Security Unit
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在 1980 年代另一個實驗
叫做萊辛頓高戒備單位,
11:21
held women connected
to the Weather Underground,
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關收與「地下氣象人組織」、
11:24
Black Liberation and Puerto Rican
independent struggles.
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「黑人解放軍」、「波多黎各
獨立奮進會」有牽連的成年女性,
11:27
The prison radically restricted
communication and used sleep deprivation,
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該監獄嚴厲限制通信,
以及採用不讓你睡手段、
11:32
and constant light for so-called
"ideological conversion."
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以及為了所謂的思想改造
不停歇的照亮。
11:37
Those prisons were eventually shut down,
but only through the campaigning
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這些監獄終究被關閉掉了,
不過唯有透過宗教團體
11:43
of religious groups and human rights
advocates, like Amnesty International.
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以及人權運動者像是
「國際特赦組織」的持續奔走。
11:48
Today, civil rights lawyers
with the Center for Constitutional Rights
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今天民權律師加上「憲法權力中心」
11:52
are challenging CMUs in court
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正在法庭裡質疑 CMU
11:54
for depriving prisoners
of their due process rights
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剝奪囚犯的正當法律程序權利,
11:57
and for retaliating against them
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以及為了他們受到保護的政治、
宗教性言論找他們算帳,
11:59
for their protected political
and religious speech.
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12:03
Many of these documents would have
never come to light without this lawsuit.
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許多這些公文要是沒有這場訴訟
可能永遠不會曝光。
12:08
The message of these groups
and my message for you today
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這些團體和我在今天要給你們的訊息
12:13
is that we must bear witness
to what is being done to these prisoners.
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是我們必須見證對這些囚犯
做過些什麼事情,
12:16
Their treatment is a reflection
of the values held beyond prison walls.
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他們的處置是監獄牆內價值的映照,
12:22
This story is not just about prisoners.
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這個故事不只是跟囚犯有關,
12:24
It is about us.
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2024
它跟我們有關、
12:27
It is about our own commitment
to human rights.
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2747
它跟我們本身對人權的承諾有關、
12:29
It is about whether we will choose to stop
repeating the mistakes of our past.
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它跟我們是否將會選擇停止重複
我們過往的錯誤有關。
12:35
If we don't listen to what Father Berrigan
described as the stories of the dead,
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要是我們不聽教神父貝瑞岡
對前車之鑑的描述,
12:40
they will soon become
the stories of ourselves.
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它們很快就會變成我們自己的寫照,
12:42
Thank you.
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謝謝你們!
12:44
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
12:51
(Applause ends)
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2000
(掌聲結束)
12:53
Tom Rielly: I have a couple questions.
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湯姆.萊利:我有幾個問題啦,
12:55
When I was in high school,
I learned about the Bill of Rights,
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當我還在高中的時候我學過權利法案、
12:59
the Constitution, freedom of speech,
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憲法、言論自由、
13:02
due process and
about 25 other laws and rights
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正當法律程序以及
25 種其他法律與權利,
13:07
that seem to be violated by this.
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那看起來都被這個內容所違背了,
13:09
How could this possibly be happening?
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這種事如何有機會發生呢?
13:12
Will Potter: I think that's
the number one question I get
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威爾.波特:我想那是我所有的工作
13:15
throughout all of my work,
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從頭到尾想到的頭號問題,
13:17
and the short answer is
that people don't know.
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而簡短的答案是一般人全然無知,
13:20
I think the solution to any of these types
of situations, any rights abuses,
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我認為對任何這些情境種類、
侵犯權利的解套方法
13:24
are really dependent on two things.
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真的要靠兩件事情;
13:26
They're dependent on knowledge
that it's actually happening
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它們有賴於得知這真的在發生中、
13:29
and then a means and efficacy
to actually make a change.
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還有接下來有方法和效度
來實際做出改變。
13:33
And unfortunately with these prisoners,
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很不幸地在這些囚犯週邊的事情,
13:35
one, people don't know
what's happening at all
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第一大家根本並不知道
正在發生些什麼事情,
13:38
and then they're already
disenfranchised populations
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接著的是他們早已經是
被剝奪權利的人口 -
13:41
who don't have access to attorneys,
not native English speakers.
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接洽不到律師、不是天生英文使用者。
13:45
In some of these cases, they have great
representation that I mentioned,
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在這裡面的一些案例中,
我提到過他們有很棒的代言人,
13:48
but there's just not a public awareness
of what's happening.
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不過就是沒有公眾在意
什麼事情正發生中。
13:51
TR: Isn't it guaranteed in prison
that you have right to council
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萊利:在監獄裡你有權利去委員會
13:54
or access to council?
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或是接洽委員會不是受到保證的嗎?
13:56
WP: There's a tendency in our culture
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波特:在我們的文化裡
13:58
to see when people have been
convicted of a crime,
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看待當人已經被定罪時有著一種傾向,
14:01
no matter if that charge
was bogus or legitimate,
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不管是否這些起訴是非法或是正當的,
14:03
that whatever happens to them
after that is warranted.
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他們之後會發生些什麼事情都是必要的;
14:06
And I think that's a really damaging
and dangerous narrative that we have,
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而我認為那真的是我們所會有
造成傷害的、危險的描述,
14:10
that allows these types
of things to happen,
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那放任了這些種類的事情發生,
14:12
as the general public just
kind of turns a blind eye to it.
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如同一般大眾就是像視而不見。
14:16
TR: All those documents on screen
were all real documents, word for word,
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萊利:所有在銀幕上頭的文件
都是真實的文件,
字字句句完全都沒改過對吧?
14:21
unchanged at all, right?
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2049
14:23
WP: Absolutely. I've actually uploaded
all of them to my website.
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3336
波特:半分不假!事實上我已經
全部上傳到了我的網站 -
14:26
It's willpotter.com/CMU and it's
a footnoted version of the talk,
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willpotter.com/CMU;
這場演講的是註解過版本,
14:31
so you can see the documents for yourself
without the little snippets.
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所以你可以自己來看
這些公文並非片段,
14:34
You can see the full version.
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你可以看見完整的版本。
14:36
I relied overwhelmingly
on primary source documents
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我極度地仰賴首要來源文件
14:39
or on primary interviews
with former and current prisoners,
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或是與先前和現今囚犯、
14:42
with people that are dealing
with this situation every day.
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每天應付這些狀況之人的原始訪談,
14:45
And like I said, I've been
there myself, as well.
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而且就像我講過的
我也已經自己去過那邊了。
14:47
TR: You're doing courageous work.
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波特:你正在做一件勇氣十足的工作!
14:49
WP: Thank you very much. Thank you all.
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波特:太感謝你了!謝謝你們大家!
14:51
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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