Julie Taymor: Spider-Man, The Lion King and life on the creative edge

翻译人员: Shengwei Cai 校对人员: Sean Young

(Music)

（音乐）

["Oedipus Rex"]

《俄狄甫斯王》

["The Lion King"]

《狮子王》

["Titus"]

《狄多的仁慈》（根据古罗马皇帝狄多改编，莫扎特晚年歌剧作品）

["Frida"]

《弗里达》

["The Magic Flute"]

《魔笛》

["Across The Universe"]

《穿越苍穹》

(Applause)

（掌声）

Julie Taymor: Thank you. Thank you very much.

朱丽·泰莫：谢谢，谢谢

That's a few samples of the theater, opera

以上这些是我20年来

and films that I have done over the last 20 years.

执导的一些戏剧、歌剧和电影的节选片段

But what I'd like to begin with right now

但是我想以多年前

is to take you back to a moment

我在印度尼西亚的一段亲身经历

that I went through in Indonesia,

作为今天演讲的开头

which is a seminal moment in my life

那是我生命中具有开创性意义的一段经历

and, like all myths,

就像所有神话故事

these stories need to be retold

需要不断地口口相传

and told, lest we forget them.

才不至于被人们所遗忘

And when I'm in the turbulent times, as we know,

在我创作的日子里并不是那么一帆风顺，你们也知道

that I am right now, through the crucible

其实现在也还是，我经历了各种严峻的考验

and the fire of transformation,

和之后的浴火重生

which is what all of you do, actually.

事实上这也是你们正在经历的

Anybody who creates knows there's that point where

任何从事创作的人都知道，总有那么一个浴火的时期

it hasn't quite become the phoenix or the burnt char.

你要嘛变成火凤凰，要嘛被烤成一块焦炭

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And I am right there on the edge,

而且我正处在这个时期内，

which I'll tell you about, another story.

具体到时我会给你们讲另外一个故事

I want to go back to Indonesia

我想先回到印度尼西亚的故事上，

where I was about 21, 22 years, a long time ago,

那是很久以前了，当时我差不多二十一二岁

on a fellowship.

在印尼用奖学金留学

And I found myself, after two years there

在巴厘岛演出和学习了两年之后

and performing and learning, on the island of Bali,

我在一座叫巴图尔的火山口

on the edge of a crater, Gunung Batur.

找寻了到自我

And I was in a village where there was

当时我所在的村子里

an initiation ceremony for the young men,

有一种为年轻男性而设的仪式

a rite of passage.

即男子成年礼

Little did I know that it was mine as well.

我完全不知道那也竟成了我的“成年礼”

And as I sat in this temple square

当时我坐在寺庙广场

under this gigantic beringin banyan tree,

一棵大榕树下

in the dark, there was no electricity, just the full moon,

四周没有灯光，一片漆黑，只有一轮圆月

down in this empty square,

皎洁地照在空旷的广场

and I heard the most beautiful sounds,

而且我还听见了世上最美妙的声音

like a Charles Ives concert

当我听到

as I listened to the gamelan music

五年一度的典礼上村民们

from all the different villagers that came

演奏的甘美兰音乐时（印尼管弦乐器）

for this once-every-five-years ceremony.

就像听着查尔斯·艾夫斯的音乐会（美国古典音乐作曲家）

And I thought I was alone in the dark under this tree.

我以为漆黑的树下只有我一个人

And all of a sudden, out of the dark,

但突然之间

from the other end of the square,

在广场对面的夜幕里

I saw the glint of mirrors lit by the moon.

我看到月光照耀下，有东西像镜子一样闪闪反光

And these 20 old men who I'd seen before

突然有二十个我之前都见过的老人

all of a sudden stood up in these full warrior costumes

身着勇士服

with the headdress and the spears,

顶戴头饰，手持长矛站了出来

and no one was in the square, and I was hidden in the shadows.

当时广场上空无一人，而我也躲在树影里

No one was there, and they came out,

没有人在那观赏，他们就这样冒出来

and they did this incredible dance.

跳起了让人难以置信的舞蹈

"Huhuhuhuhuhuhuhahahahaha."

呼呼呼呼呼呼呼哈哈哈哈

And they moved their bodies and they came forward,

他们左右摇摆，身体前倾

and the lights bounced off these costumes.

月光在他们服装上跳动闪耀着

And I've been in theater since I was 11 years old,

我从11岁起，就开始在剧院里

and performing, creating, and I went,

参加演出，编写剧本，我就想

"Who are they performing for

他们身着盛装

with these elaborate costumes,

戴上如此别致的头饰

these extraordinary headdresses?"

到底是表演给谁看啊

And I realized that they were performing for God,

之后我意识到，他们是表演给神明看

whatever that means.

虽然我也不知道其意义是什么

But somehow, it didn't matter about the publicity.

不知为何，这个表演既不是公开的

There was no money involved.

也不关钱的事儿

It wasn't going to be written down. It was no news.

没人会将其记录下来 这也不是啥新鲜事儿

And there were these incredible artists

但当这些伟大的艺术家们表演的时候

that felt for me like an eternity as they performed.

我感觉到了一种永恒与不朽

The next moment,

过了一会儿

as soon as they finished and disappeared into the shadows,

他们结束了表演，消失在对面的黑暗中

a young man with a propane lantern came on,

一个年轻人提着一个油灯出现了

hung it up on a tree, set up a curtain.

他把灯挂在树上后又弄了一片幕布

The village square was filled with hundreds of people.

小小的乡村广场上挤满了几百号人

And they put on an opera all night long.

他们整夜都在表演歌剧

Human beings needed the light.

人类需要光

They needed the light to see.

没有光，人类就看不见

So what I gained and gathered from this incredible,

所以作为一个年轻的艺术家

seminal moment in my life as a young artist

我从这个对我具有开创性意义时刻学到的是

was that you must be true

一个艺术家必须

to what you believe as an artist all the way through,

对自己的信仰始终坚贞如一

but you also have to be aware

但同时还要明白

that the audience is out there in our lives at this time,

这一刻，我们生活里的观众在看着我们

and they also need the light.

他们同样需要光亮

And it's this incredible balance

我想我们就一直走在这种

that I think that we walk

微妙的平衡上

when we are creating something that is breaking ground,

当我们试着创作一些新的东西

that's trying to do something you've never seen before,

当我们尝试做一些前所未见的事情

that imaginary world

就像一个我们

where you actually don't know where you're going to end up,

不知该在哪儿停下的天马行空的世界

that's the fine line on the edge of a crater

这种平衡就是火山口那细线般的边缘

that I have walked my whole life.

而我一生都在这种边缘上行走

What I would like to do now is to tell you

现在我想介绍

a little bit

一些关于我工作上的事情

about how I work. Let's take "The Lion King."

我们以《狮子王》为例

You saw many examples of my work up there,

你们刚刚也看到了我的一些作品

but it's one that people know.

但《狮子王》的知名度高一些

I start with the notion of the ideograph.

首先我要先说说”象形“

An ideograph is like a brush painting, a Japanese brush painting.

所谓的“象形”就像毛笔画，日本水墨画那样

Three strokes, you get the whole bamboo forest.

三两笔就能勾画出一片竹林

I go to the concept of "The Lion King"

这使我联想到《狮子王》的概念

and I say, "What is the essence of it?

我想，它的本质是什么

What is the abstraction?

它的抽象概念是什么

If I were to reduce this entire story

如果我要把整个故事浓缩到一幅图里

into one image, what would it be?"

这幅图该是什么样子

The circle. The circle. It's so obvious.

答案是圆，就是圆，显而易见

The circle of life. The circle of Mufasa's mask.

《生生不息》的圆（狮子王片头曲，获奥斯卡最佳原创歌曲）， 狮王木法沙面具的圆

The circle that, when we come to Act II and there's a drought,

我们表演第二幕时 有一个干旱的场景

how do you express drought?

你们会怎么表现干旱

It's a circle of silk on the floor

圆，我们用丝带围成了一个圆

that disappears into the hole in the stage floor.

然后像水一样逐渐从舞台上的洞里消失

The circle of life comes in the wheels

生命的圆伴随着

of the gazelles that leap.

跳跃的瞪羚一起出现

And you see the mechanics.

我们就是这样排演的

And being a theater person, what I know and love about the theater

作为一个戏剧人，我对戏剧的了解和热爱在于

is that when the audience comes in

当观众入场后

and they suspend their disbelief,

他们会把怀疑放在一边

when you see men walking or women walking

当你看见人在舞台上行走

with a platter of grass on their heads,

头上顶着个长满草的帽子

you know it's the savanna.

你就知道那是热带草原

You don't question that.

人们并不会去怀疑

I love the apparent truth of theater.

我热爱剧院里这个浅显的事实

I love that people are willing to fill in the blanks.

我热爱人们乐意自行脑补空白

The audience is willing to say,

观众会乐意说

"Oh, I know that's not a real sun.

好吧，我知道那个太阳是假的

You took pieces of sticks.

你们用一些小木条

You added silk to the bottom.

和丝带固定在它的底部

You suspended these pieces. You let it fall flat on the floor.

先放平在舞台上，然后用绳子吊着，

And as it rises with the strings, I see that it's a sun.

当道具随着绳子升起的时候， 我知道那是代表太阳

But the beauty of it is that it's just silk and sticks.

但美就美在那仅仅是丝带和小木条做的

And in a way, that is what makes it spiritual.

某种程度上 这种象征性精神上的太阳

That's what moves you.

才是触动你的地方

It's not the actual literal sunrise that's coming.

那个场景并不是真正的日出

It's the art of it.

而是表演艺术上的日出

So in the theater, as much as the story is critical

所以在戏剧里 故事本身当然关键

and the book and the language,

剧本、对白

the telling of the story, how it's told,

故事的阐述和解读

the mechanics, the methods that you use,

排演的手法和方式

is equal to the story itself.

也都和故事本身一样重要

And I'm one who loves high tech and low tech.

我是个既爱高科技也爱低科技的人

So I could go from --

所以我可以从······

For instance, I'll show you some "Spider-Man" later,

比如，我待会儿会给你们展示《蜘蛛侠》

这些能让人飞来飞去的吊威亚机器

these incredible machines that move people along.

But the fact is, without the dancer

但事实上如果舞者们

who knows how to use his body and swing on those wires,

不懂如何运用肢体 和怎么吊威亚

it's nothing.

一切都是空谈

So now I'm going to show you

现在我们来看一个视频剪辑

some clips from the other big project of my life this year,

来自我今年的另外一个大项目

"The Tempest."

——《暴风雨》（莎士比亚的著作）

It's a movie. I did "The Tempest" on a stage three times

这是一部电影 自1984、1986年以来

in the theater since 1984, '86,

我共执导过三次《暴风雨》的戏剧

and I love the play.

我特别喜欢那个剧本

I did it always with a male Prospero.

我执导的时候总是让男演员扮演普洛斯彼罗 （普洛斯彼罗：戏剧《暴风雨》中的主角）

And all of a sudden, I thought,

有次我心血来潮想

"Well, who am I gonna get to play Prospero?

让谁扮演普洛斯彼罗合适呢

Why not Helen Mirren? She's a great actor. Why not?"

为什么不找海伦·米伦呢 她是个好演员啊，为什么不呢

And this material really did work for a woman equally as well.

电影里把话剧男性主人公改编成女性其实也行得通的（详见电影《暴风雨》）

So now, let's take a look at some of the images

所以，现在我们来看一下

from "The Tempest."

《暴风雨》里的一些场景

(Music)

（音乐）

(Video) Prospera: Hast thou, spirit, performed to the point the tempest that I bade thee?

普洛斯佩拉：幽灵，你有没有照我的命令操纵暴风雨

艾瑞尔：我上了国王的船，每个船舱都充满了烈火的尖叫

Ariel: I boarded the king's ship. In every cabin, I flamed amazement.

Prospera: At first sight, they have changed eyes.

普洛斯佩拉：他们一见倾心

Miranda: Do you love me?

米兰达：你爱我吗

Ferdinand: Beyond all limit.

腓迪南：至死不渝

HM: They are both in either's powers.

海伦·米伦：他们已经离不开彼此了

Trinculo: Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows.

特林鸠罗：同床异梦，方晓痛苦

(Music)

（音乐）

Looking for business, governor?

大人，要找点儿乐子吗

Caliban: Hast thou not dropped from heaven?

卡利班：你们是从天堂来的吗

Stephano: Out of the moon, I do assure thee.

斯特凡诺：从月亮上来，我向你保证

Prospera: Caliban!

普洛斯佩拉：卡利班！

Caliban: This island is mine.

卡利班：这岛是我的！

Prospera: For this, be sure, tonight thou shalt have cramps.

普洛斯佩拉：我可以保证，今晚你将全身绞痛痉挛

Antonio: Here lies your brother no better than the earth he lies upon.

安东尼奥：你的兄长身死此地，与地上泥土毫无异处

Sebastian: Draw thy sword.

塞巴斯蒂安：拔剑吧

And I, the king, shall love thee.

我会以国王的身份敬爱你

Prospera: I will plague them all, even to roaring.

普洛斯佩拉：我要折磨他们，直到他们歇斯底里

Ariel: I have made you mad.

艾瑞尔：我已经让你们疯狂了

Prospera: We are such stuff as dreams are made on.

普洛斯佩拉：我们不过是编织幻想的材料

and our little life is rounded with a sleep.

而且我们卑微的生活不过是黄粱一梦

(Music)

（音乐）

JT: Okay.

好了

(Applause)

（掌声）

So I went from theater, doing "The Tempest"

很多年前，我从剧院舞台上

on the stage in a very low-budget production

以低预算投入

many years ago,

执导《暴风雨》戏剧

and I love the play, and I also think

我喜欢那个剧本，同时我想

it's Shakespeare's last play,

那可是莎士比亚的最后一个剧本啊

and it really lends itself, as you can see, to cinema.

而且你们也看到了 它非常适合拍成电影

But I'm just going to give you a little example about

但是我想给你们举一些例子

how one stages it in theater

关于怎样让它在剧院舞台演出

and then how one takes that same idea or story

还有怎样把同样的想法或故事

and moves it into cinema.

搬到电影荧幕上

The ideograph that I talked to you about before,

刚才我们提到了“象形文字”

what is it for "The Tempest"?

那《暴风雨》的象形是什么呢

What, if I were to boil it down,

如果我讲这个故事浓缩成一幅图

would be the one image that I could

那是怎样一幅图

hang my hat on for this?

才适合我的想法呢

And it was the sand castle,

这个意象就是沙堡

the idea of nurture versus nature,

关于先天自然和后天培养

that we build these civilizations --

我们所建造的这些文明成果

she speaks about it at the end, Helen Mirren's Prospera --

海伦·米伦（普洛斯佩拉扮演者）在最后说到

we build them, but under nature, under the grand tempest,

我们后天建造了它们，但在大自然下，在暴风雨之下

these cloud-capped towers, these gorgeous palaces will fade

这些高耸入云的巨塔，这些富丽堂皇的宫殿终将会如沙堡般逐渐崩坏

and there will -- leave not a rack behind.

连一点废墟的痕迹也没有留下

So in the theater, I started the play,

所以，我在戏剧里是这样开场的

it was a black sand rake, white cyc,

一块黑色的沙地 一块白色幕布

and there was a little girl, Miranda, on the horizon,

一个叫米兰达的小女孩正在舞台边上

building a drip castle, a sand castle.

堆着沙堡

And as she was there on the edge of that stage,

当她在舞台的边上时

two stagehands all in black

两个全身黑衣的舞台工作人员

with watering cans ran along the top

手提喷壶沿着幕前走

and started to pour water on the sand castle,

然后开始往沙堡上倒水

and the sand castle started to drip and sink,

沙堡开始漏水倒塌

but before it did,

但在沙堡崩坏前

the audience saw the black-clad stagehands.

观众看见了这两个身着黑衣的工作人员

The medium was apparent. It was banal. We saw it.

这个方法很明显，很老套 我们都见过

But as they started to pour the water,

但当他们开始倒水的时候

the light changed from showing you the black-clad stagehands

灯光从这两个舞台人员身上聚焦到

to focusing, this rough magic that we do in theater,

喷水壶倒出的水上，

it focused right on the water itself.

这个戏剧里的老套把戏再粗浅不过了

And all of a sudden, the audience's perspective changes.

但是在那一瞬间， 观众的视角突然也跟着改变了

It becomes something magically large.

它好像被魔法般放大

It becomes the rainstorm.

仿佛真的成了暴风雨

The masked actors, the puppeteers, they disappear,

戴面具的演员和傀儡师都消失了

and the audience makes that leap into this world,

观众的思维也跳跃到了这个世界里

into this imaginary world of "The Tempest" actually happening.

跳到这个“暴风雨”正在肆虐的想象世界里

Now the difference

在电影中

when I went and did it in the cinema,

我则采取了不同的手法

I started the actual movie

我以一个黑色沙堡的特写镜头

with a close-up of a sand castle, a black sand castle,

作为这部电影的开幕

and what cinema can do is,

拍摄电影时就是可以

by using camera, perspective,

运用摄像机的不同视角

and also long shots and close-ups,

同时还有远景镜头和特写镜头

it started on a close-up of the sand castle,

电影以沙堡的特写镜头开始

and as it pulled away,

然后镜头拉远

you saw that it was a miniature sitting in the palm

你们会发现那其实是

of the girl's hands.

一个放在女孩儿手上的微缩模型

And so I could play with the medium,

所以我能随心所欲地运用这些方法

and why I move from one medium to another

我从一个方法换到另一个方法

is to be able to do this.

就是为了达到这个目的

Now I'm going to take you to "Spider-Man."

现在我给你们展示《蜘蛛侠》

(Music)

（音乐）

(Video) Peter Parker: ♪ Standing on the precipice,

彼得·帕克：站在悬崖之边

I can soar away from this. ♪

我能在此冲上云霄

JT: We're trying to do everything in live theater

我们正在立体剧院里尝试一些新方法

that you can't do in two dimensions

那些方法不能用二维平面媒体表现出来

in film and television.

像是电影和电视

PP: ♪ Rise above yourself and take control. ♪

超越自我，掌握一切

George Tsypin: We're looking at New York from a Spider-Man point of view.

乔治·希平：我们正从蜘蛛侠的视角看纽约

Spider Man is not bound by gravity.

蜘蛛侠不受引力控制

Manhattan in the show is not bound by gravity either.

戏里的曼哈顿也摆脱了地心引力

PP: ♪ Be yourself and rise above it all. ♪

彼得·帕克：做好自己，然后超越一切

Ensemble: ♪ Sock! Pow! ♪

和声：碰！啪！

♪ Slam! Scratch! ♪

砰！擦！

Danny Ezralow: I don't want you to even think there's a choreographer.

丹尼·艾佐罗：我不想你们认为那经过精心编排

It's real, what's happening.

那些真实的，正在发生的事情

I prefer you to see people moving,

我更喜欢你们看到人物移动

and you're going, "Whoa, what was that?"

然后说：“哇哦，那是个啥”

(Music)

（音乐）

JT: If I give enough movement in the sculpture,

朱丽·泰莫：如果我给这个雕塑足够多的动作

and the actor moves their head, you feel like it's alive.

然后演员晃动头部 你会感觉那就是个活生生的人

It's really comic book live. It's a comic book coming alive.

这的确是漫画直播 栩栩如生真人版的漫画

(Music)

（音乐）

Bono: They're mythologies.

博诺：这些漫画英雄

They're modern myths, these comic book heroes.

是神话，是现代神话

PP: ♪ They believe. ♪

彼得·帕克：他们相信

(Screams)

（尖叫）

(Music)

（音乐）

(Applause)

（掌声）

JT: Ohhhh. What was that?

朱丽·泰莫：哇哦，那是个啥

Circus, rock 'n' roll, drama.

马戏、摇滚、戏剧

What the hell are we doing up there on that stage?

我们TMD到底在那舞台干啥呀

Well, one last story, very quickly.

好吧，最后一个故事，很快就讲完

After I was in that village, I crossed the lake,

在我离开那个村子后，我穿过那个湖

and I saw that the volcano was erupting

看见另一边的火山在喷发

on the other side, Gunung Batur,

也就是巴图尔火山

and there was a dead volcano next to the live volcano.

它旁边有座死火山

I didn't think I'd be swallowed by the volcano,

我从没想过会被火山吞没

and I am here.

而且我现在在这儿

But it's very easy to climb up, is it not?

但是很容易就能爬上去，对吧？

You hold on to the roots,

只要紧紧抓住树根

you put your foot in the little rocks

把脚稳稳放在小石头间

and climb up there, and you get to the top,

不断往上爬 然后就能达到顶点

and I was with a good friend who was an actor,

我当时和一个演员朋友一起

and we said, "Let's go up there.

我们说，我们上去吧

Let's see if we can come close to the edge

看看我们能不能接近

of that live volcano."

巴图尔火山口边缘

And we climbed up and we got to the very top,

然后我们爬了上去，到达山顶时候

and we're on the edge, on this precipice,

我们真是在火山口边，悬崖之边

Roland disappears into the sulfur smoke

罗兰消失在火山口另一端的

at the volcano at the other end,

硫磺烟雾之中

and I'm up there alone

我孤零零一个人

on this incredible precipice.

面对着这不可置信的悬崖绝壁

Did you hear the lyrics?

注意到刚才的歌词了吧

I'm on the precipice looking down

我从火山悬崖上往下看

into a dead volcano to my left.

我的左手边是座死火山

To my right is sheer shale. It's coming off.

而我右边是正在脱落陡峭的页岩层

I'm in thongs and sarongs. It was many years ago.

我穿着人字拖和莎笼裙 而且是很多年前

And no hiking boots.

没有登山鞋

And he's disappeared, this mad French gypsy actor,

这个疯狂的法国吉普赛演员

off in the smoke, and I realize,

又消失在烟雾里，我意识到

I can't go back the way that I've come. I can't.

我不能从来时的路回去，绝对不行

So I throw away my camera. I throw away my thongs,

所以我扔掉照相机 脱掉人字拖

and I looked at the line straight in front of me,

看向那条正好在我面前的路

and I got down on all fours like a cat,

我像一只猫一样四肢着地往下爬

and I held with my knees to either side

我用膝盖紧靠

of this line in front of me,

这条路的两侧

for 30 yards or 30 feet, I don't know.

爬了30码还是30英尺 记不清了

The wind was massively blowing,

狂风在呼啸

and the only way I could get to the other side

而我到达另一边的唯一途径

was to look at the line straight in front of me.

就是指望我面前这条路

I know you've all been there.

我知道你们都经历过

I'm in the crucible right now.

我现在就在经历严酷的考验

It's my trial by fire.

这是烈火的试炼

It's my company's trials by fire.

这是烈火给我的公司的试炼

We survive because our theme song is "Rise Above."

我们成功地挺过来了 因为我们的主题曲是《超越》

Boy falls from the sky, rise above.

蜘蛛侠男从天空而降，然后又直冲云霄

It's right there in the palm of both of our hands,

恰好都在我们的掌控之中

of all of my company's hands.

我们公司手中拥有许多优越资源

I have beautiful collaborators, and we as creators

我有出色的合作伙伴 我们作为创作者

only get there all together.

必须通力合作才能成功

I know you understand that.

我知道你们理解

And you just stay going forward,

而且你只要保持前进

and then you see this extraordinary thing

你就能发现奇迹

in front of your eyes.

将出现在你眼前

Thank you.

谢谢

(Applause)

（掌声）