Julie Taymor: Spider-Man, The Lion King and life on the creative edge

譯者: Taiho Huang 審譯者: Yi-Hua Yang

(Music)

(音樂)

["Oedipus Rex"]

[伊底帕斯王(Oedipus Rex)]

["The Lion King"]

[獅子王(The Lion King)]

["Titus"]

[聖詩復仇 (Titus)]

["Frida"]

[揮灑烈愛(Frida)]

["The Magic Flute"]

[魔笛 (The Magic Flute)]

["Across The Universe"]

[愛是唯一(Across The Universe)]

(Applause)

(鼓掌聲)

Julie Taymor: Thank you. Thank you very much.

謝謝大家 謝謝

That's a few samples of the theater, opera

這些是我過去二十年來製作的

and films that I have done over the last 20 years.

一些戲劇、歌劇和電影的片段

But what I'd like to begin with right now

不過在一開始

is to take you back to a moment

我想要帶大家回到

that I went through in Indonesia,

我在印尼所經歷到的

which is a seminal moment in my life

一個對我來說非常重要的時刻

and, like all myths,

就和所有的神話故事一樣

these stories need to be retold

故事需要被不斷傳講

and told, lest we forget them.

不停重複 才不會被忘記

And when I'm in the turbulent times, as we know,

當我處於混亂的時刻

that I am right now, through the crucible

其實我現在就是

and the fire of transformation,

正在上刀山、下油鍋

which is what all of you do, actually.

事實上在座的各位想必也有經歷過

Anybody who creates knows there's that point where

只要創作過的人大概都明白

it hasn't quite become the phoenix or the burnt char.

創作的過程會到一個點 一個卡在中間，還未成為浴火鳳凰的時刻

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And I am right there on the edge,

而我就是到了那個臨界點上

which I'll tell you about, another story.

這又會和我想講的另一個故事有關

I want to go back to Indonesia

我想再回到剛剛講到的印尼

where I was about 21, 22 years, a long time ago,

當時我大概21、22歲左右 是很久以前的事了

on a fellowship.

我是拿了獎學金去做研究的

And I found myself, after two years there

到了那裡兩年表演和學習

and performing and learning, on the island of Bali,

一天，我到了峇里島

on the edge of a crater, Gunung Batur.

在巴杜爾 (Gunung Batur) 火山口附近

And I was in a village where there was

那裡是個小村莊

an initiation ceremony for the young men,

正在舉辦年輕男子的成年禮

a rite of passage.

正在舉辦年輕男子的成年禮

Little did I know that it was mine as well.

我當時不曉得那其實也會是我的成年禮

And as I sat in this temple square

當我坐在寺廟廣場前

under this gigantic beringin banyan tree,

一棵大榕樹下

in the dark, there was no electricity, just the full moon,

四周一片漆黑，沒有電燈 只有天上的一輪明月

down in this empty square,

就在廣場的附近

and I heard the most beautiful sounds,

我聽見了世界上最美妙的聲音

like a Charles Ives concert

就好像查理斯艾維斯的音樂會

as I listened to the gamelan music

聽著甘美朗所彈奏出來的音樂 (印尼一種竹製樂器)

from all the different villagers that came

是由好幾位參與慶典的村民

for this once-every-five-years ceremony.

為了這場五年一次的慶典而演奏

And I thought I was alone in the dark under this tree.

我以為只有我一個人 夜裡坐在這樹下

And all of a sudden, out of the dark,

突然，一片漆黑中

from the other end of the square,

從廣場的另外一頭

I saw the glint of mirrors lit by the moon.

在月光些微光芒的照射下

And these 20 old men who I'd seen before

我看到之前見過的約二十位老人

all of a sudden stood up in these full warrior costumes

突然間全站了起來 並且都穿著全套的戰服

with the headdress and the spears,

頭飾、長矛一應俱全

and no one was in the square, and I was hidden in the shadows.

廣場上空無一人 我剛好藏在陰影處

No one was there, and they came out,

就在無人之際 他們站了出來

and they did this incredible dance.

並跳了一段非常棒的舞蹈

"Huhuhuhuhuhuhuhahahahaha."

"呼呼呼呼哇哈哈哈哈"

And they moved their bodies and they came forward,

他們舞動著身體 並且漸漸走到前端

and the lights bounced off these costumes.

光不斷地反射他們衣服上的亮片

And I've been in theater since I was 11 years old,

我從十一歲起就在戲院裡頭打滾

and performing, creating, and I went,

也一直都在表演跟創作

"Who are they performing for

我不禁想：他們是在表演給誰看

with these elaborate costumes,

居然穿著這麼精緻的戲服

these extraordinary headdresses?"

還帶這麼特別的頭飾？

And I realized that they were performing for God,

後來我發現他們是在表演給神看的

whatever that means.

無論那什麼意思

But somehow, it didn't matter about the publicity.

總之不是在做宣傳

There was no money involved.

也沒有票房的問題

It wasn't going to be written down. It was no news.

不需要留下記錄 更沒有要做報導

And there were these incredible artists

而每位表演者都是頂尖的藝術家

that felt for me like an eternity as they performed.

當他們在表演的時候 我真的有種永恆的感覺

The next moment,

但下一刻

as soon as they finished and disappeared into the shadows,

他們一跳完 就馬上消失在陰影中

a young man with a propane lantern came on,

一名年輕人拿著瓦斯燈走了出來

hung it up on a tree, set up a curtain.

把它掛在一棵樹上後 又架了一個簾子

The village square was filled with hundreds of people.

廣場上擠滿了幾百人

And they put on an opera all night long.

這些人演了一整晚的戲

Human beings needed the light.

凡是人都需要有光

They needed the light to see.

因為要有光才看得見東西

So what I gained and gathered from this incredible,

所以當我還是個年輕的藝術家時

seminal moment in my life as a young artist

就從這個既特別 又具有啓發性的時刻學到

was that you must be true

我們必須堅持並且忠於 自己做為一個藝術家所相信的

to what you believe as an artist all the way through,

我們必須堅持並且忠於 自己做為一個藝術家所相信的

but you also have to be aware

但我們同時也必須意識到

that the audience is out there in our lives at this time,

同一個時刻 觀眾就在台下觀看著

and they also need the light.

而他們需要那道光

And it's this incredible balance

我們在追求的

that I think that we walk

就是這樣一個微妙的平衡點

when we are creating something that is breaking ground,

當我們想要做一個突破性的創舉

that's trying to do something you've never seen before,

或是做出沒有人曾經做過的嘗試

that imaginary world

那個未知的世界

where you actually don't know where you're going to end up,

你也自己也不知道結果會如何的世界

that's the fine line on the edge of a crater

就是我這輩子

that I have walked my whole life.

一直在走的火山口

What I would like to do now is to tell you

接著我想跟大家談談

a little bit

我的創作過程

about how I work. Let's take "The Lion King."

就拿「獅子王」來說吧

You saw many examples of my work up there,

大家剛剛看到許多我的作品

but it's one that people know.

不過「獅子王」是大家都熟知的

I start with the notion of the ideograph.

這部片的創作是從表意的概念出發的

An ideograph is like a brush painting, a Japanese brush painting.

表意有點像日本水墨畫

Three strokes, you get the whole bamboo forest.

畫上三筆 你就知道是代表的是整片的竹林

I go to the concept of "The Lion King"

我先是有了「獅子王」這個概念

and I say, "What is the essence of it?

接著問自己：這部片的本質是什麼？

What is the abstraction?

精華又在哪裡？

If I were to reduce this entire story

如果我要把整個故事

into one image, what would it be?"

縮減到只有一個畫面 那會是什麼畫面呢？

The circle. The circle. It's so obvious.

循環，是一個循環 太清楚了

The circle of life. The circle of Mufasa's mask.

一個生命的循環 木法沙 (Mufasa) 面具的傳承

The circle that, when we come to Act II and there's a drought,

在第二幕的時候有場乾旱的景

how do you express drought?

應該怎麼表現出乾旱呢？

It's a circle of silk on the floor

一開始用絲巾圍了一圈在地上

that disappears into the hole in the stage floor.

然後讓絲巾消失在舞台上的一個洞裡

The circle of life comes in the wheels

生命的循環則是透過轉輪上

of the gazelles that leap.

一群群跳躍的羚羊來表現

And you see the mechanics.

這些技術性的部分是觀眾都看得到的

And being a theater person, what I know and love about the theater

身為一個劇場人 我深知且熱愛戲劇的地方就是

is that when the audience comes in

當觀眾進到劇院裡

and they suspend their disbelief,

他們就會放下許多成見或質疑

when you see men walking or women walking

當看見一群在走動的男女

with a platter of grass on their heads,

每個人頭上都戴著一圈草

you know it's the savanna.

你立刻就會知道那代表著草原

You don't question that.

不會有人質疑這點

I love the apparent truth of theater.

我就是喜歡劇場裡頭 這種不需要多做解釋的真理

I love that people are willing to fill in the blanks.

我喜歡那些自己填空的觀眾

The audience is willing to say,

他們會願意這麼說

"Oh, I know that's not a real sun.

「喔，我知道那不是真的太陽啊」

You took pieces of sticks.

你就是拿幾根木棍

You added silk to the bottom.

在底部加上絲巾

You suspended these pieces. You let it fall flat on the floor.

然後把棍子掛起來 讓絲巾垂到地上

And as it rises with the strings, I see that it's a sun.

當隨著鋼絲把棍子吊起來時 我就知道那是太陽

But the beauty of it is that it's just silk and sticks.

但這美妙之處在於 其實不過就是絲巾跟棍子罷了

And in a way, that is what makes it spiritual.

但這也就是為什麼劇場如此靈性

That's what moves you.

而且具感染力

It's not the actual literal sunrise that's coming.

觀眾雖然不是真正看到太陽升起

It's the art of it.

但那意境確實傳達出來了

So in the theater, as much as the story is critical

所以在劇院裡頭 故事本身固然重要

and the book and the language,

包括整個劇本或是所用的文字

the telling of the story, how it's told,

但是如何去說一個故事

the mechanics, the methods that you use,

所用的佈景技巧或表現手法

is equal to the story itself.

和故事本身是一樣重要的

And I'm one who loves high tech and low tech.

我本身喜歡用高科技 也喜歡用很基礎的技術

So I could go from --

所以我可以從 --

For instance, I'll show you some "Spider-Man" later,

比方說 我等下會給大家看 「蜘蛛人」的一些片段

這些讓人飛來飛去的機器 真的很不可思議

these incredible machines that move people along.

But the fact is, without the dancer

但事實上，如果沒有舞者

who knows how to use his body and swing on those wires,

誰會知道該如何 運用身體在鋼絲間擺盪？

it's nothing.

沒了舞者 這些就做不出來了

So now I'm going to show you

所以我現在要播放

some clips from the other big project of my life this year,

我今年做的一些大案子的片段

"The Tempest."

[暴風雨 (The Tempest)]

It's a movie. I did "The Tempest" on a stage three times

這部是電影 我曾經三度把它做成舞台劇

in the theater since 1984, '86,

從1984、1986年起 就有在劇場裡演出

and I love the play.

我很愛這齣戲

I did it always with a male Prospero.

我過去都是用男性演員 來演出Prospero這個角色

And all of a sudden, I thought,

但我某天突然想

"Well, who am I gonna get to play Prospero?

「該找誰來演 Prospero 好呢？」

Why not Helen Mirren? She's a great actor. Why not?"

「不如找海倫米蘭好了，她是個優秀的演員！ 就這麼辦吧」

And this material really did work for a woman equally as well.

且這個素材確實也十分適合女性發揮

So now, let's take a look at some of the images

現在就讓我們來看看

from "The Tempest."

[暴風雨(The Tempest)] 的一些場景吧

(Music)

(音樂)

(Video) Prospera: Hast thou, spirit, performed to the point the tempest that I bade thee?

Prospera：精靈，你有沒有按照我的命令 去執行那場暴風雨？

Ariel：我登上了國王的船，也到每個船艙裡 放了火，使人恐懼

Ariel: I boarded the king's ship. In every cabin, I flamed amazement.

Prospera: At first sight, they have changed eyes.

Prospera：才第一次見面 他們就已經在眉目傳情了

Miranda: Do you love me?

Miranda：你愛我嗎？

Ferdinand: Beyond all limit.

Ferdinand：勝於一切

HM: They are both in either's powers.

旁白：他們已經深陷情網中了

Trinculo: Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows.

Trinculo：患難使人從陌生到熟稔

(Music)

(音樂)

Looking for business, governor?

您在找什麼嗎，大人？

Caliban: Hast thou not dropped from heaven?

Caliban：您不是從天上掉下來的嗎？

Stephano: Out of the moon, I do assure thee.

Stephano：我確實是從月亮上下來的

Prospera: Caliban!

Prospera：Caliban!

Caliban: This island is mine.

Caliban：這座島是我的

Prospera: For this, be sure, tonight thou shalt have cramps.

Prospera：記住吧，為著你的出言不遜 今晚要叫你痛苦

Antonio: Here lies your brother no better than the earth he lies upon.

Antonio：你哥哥躺著，如同他身下的泥土

Sebastian: Draw thy sword.

Sebastian：舉起你的劍吧

And I, the king, shall love thee.

孤王我必會十分眷顧你

Prospera: I will plague them all, even to roaring.

Prospera：我要狠狠地懲治他們 直至他們哀嚎出聲

Ariel: I have made you mad.

Ariel：你們已經發狂了

Prospera: We are such stuff as dreams are made on.

Prospera：我們的人生也不過是一場夢

and our little life is rounded with a sleep.

而且這短暫的一生，前後都在酣睡

(Music)

(音樂)

JT: Okay.

大概是這樣

(Applause)

(掌聲)

So I went from theater, doing "The Tempest"

所以我從好多年前，在劇院裡頭

on the stage in a very low-budget production

用很低的成本，製作『暴風雨』這部劇

many years ago,

一路到了現在

and I love the play, and I also think

我很愛這部戲，而且我覺得

it's Shakespeare's last play,

這是莎翁筆下最後的一部劇

and it really lends itself, as you can see, to cinema.

再加上如同大家剛所看到的 它很適合在大螢幕上播出

But I'm just going to give you a little example about

但我只是想跟大家分享

how one stages it in theater

如何在劇場裡做一部劇

and then how one takes that same idea or story

又該如何把同樣的一個想法 或我們說同一個故事

and moves it into cinema.

搬上大螢幕

The ideograph that I talked to you about before,

還記得我們先前提過的表意手法嗎

what is it for "The Tempest"?

如果運用在『暴風雨』上 該用什麼來表現呢？

What, if I were to boil it down,

如果要去蕪存菁

would be the one image that I could

哪個畫面會是最有代表性的？

hang my hat on for this?

哪個畫面會是最有代表性的？

And it was the sand castle,

我想到的是那座沙堡

the idea of nurture versus nature,

我們所建構的文明

that we build these civilizations --

究竟是後天還是先天的？

she speaks about it at the end, Helen Mirren's Prospera --

這也就是海倫米蘭所飾演 Prospera在片尾所說的

we build them, but under nature, under the grand tempest,

我們努力讓自己成為文明人 但實際上，在大歷練下

these cloud-capped towers, these gorgeous palaces will fade

那些被雲所覆蓋的高塔 或華美的皇宮都將逝去

and there will -- leave not a rack behind.

而且是消失地無影無蹤

So in the theater, I started the play,

所以在劇場裡演出時的開場

it was a black sand rake, white cyc,

是一個黑色的沙耙配上全白的佈景

and there was a little girl, Miranda, on the horizon,

然後有個小女孩 Miranda 在當中

building a drip castle, a sand castle.

用沙在蓋著城堡

And as she was there on the edge of that stage,

當她在舞台邊上蓋著蓋著時

two stagehands all in black

有兩個全身穿黑衣服的舞台工作人員

with watering cans ran along the top

手裡拿著澆水器

and started to pour water on the sand castle,

開始在沙堡上頭澆水

and the sand castle started to drip and sink,

於是沙堡開始倒塌

but before it did,

但在倒下來之前

the audience saw the black-clad stagehands.

觀眾都有看到那兩位 穿黑衣服的工作人員

The medium was apparent. It was banal. We saw it.

這個手法太明顯了 甚至可以說太直白

But as they started to pour the water,

但當他們開始倒水的時候

the light changed from showing you the black-clad stagehands

光就從這兩個黑衣人挪開

to focusing, this rough magic that we do in theater,

並用在劇院裡我們常用的那招

it focused right on the water itself.

把光改打在水面上

And all of a sudden, the audience's perspective changes.

觀眾的想法也就瞬間跟著改變了

It becomes something magically large.

關注的是整個畫面

It becomes the rainstorm.

是專注在暴風雨上

The masked actors, the puppeteers, they disappear,

隨著帶著面具或操縱木偶的演員下台

and the audience makes that leap into this world,

觀眾們就這樣進到

into this imaginary world of "The Tempest" actually happening.

台上『暴風雨』的想像世界裡

Now the difference

不過當我把這部戲

when I went and did it in the cinema,

搬到電影院裡時

I started the actual movie

電影的開場方式就不一樣了

with a close-up of a sand castle, a black sand castle,

一開始鏡頭是特寫在沙堡上 一個黑色的沙堡

and what cinema can do is,

電影的好處就是

by using camera, perspective,

可以運用鏡頭的遠近

and also long shots and close-ups,

來製造不同的角度

it started on a close-up of the sand castle,

我是用特寫沙堡的鏡頭開場的

and as it pulled away,

然後當鏡頭漸漸拉遠的時候

you saw that it was a miniature sitting in the palm

觀眾就會看到其實它是

of the girl's hands.

放在一個小女孩手上的迷你沙堡

And so I could play with the medium,

所以我可以大玩不同的呈現方式

and why I move from one medium to another

而我選擇用各種不同的呈現方式

is to be able to do this.

就是為了可以做到這個

Now I'm going to take you to "Spider-Man."

接下來我要讓大家看的是『蜘蛛人』

(Music)

(音樂)

(Video) Peter Parker: ♪ Standing on the precipice,

Peter Parker: 站在這個高樓的邊緣

I can soar away from this. ♪

我可以一躍而下

JT: We're trying to do everything in live theater

我們在劇院裡頭就是盡可能地

that you can't do in two dimensions

嘗試任何在一般2D電視

in film and television.

或電影螢幕上所無法表現的東西

PP: ♪ Rise above yourself and take control. ♪

Peter Parker：超越自我並掌管一切吧

George Tsypin: We're looking at New York from a Spider-Man point of view.

George Tsypin：我們是在從蜘蛛人的角度在看紐約

Spider Man is not bound by gravity.

蜘蛛人不受地心引力限制

Manhattan in the show is not bound by gravity either.

這部戲裡的曼哈頓也不受地心引力的限制

PP: ♪ Be yourself and rise above it all. ♪

Peter Parker：做你自己並不要受任何影響

Ensemble: ♪ Sock! Pow! ♪

合唱：猛烈一擊！啪！

♪ Slam! Scratch! ♪

砰！劃破了！

Danny Ezralow: I don't want you to even think there's a choreographer.

Danny Ezalow：我不希望大家覺得有人在編舞

It's real, what's happening.

這裡發生的一切都是真的

I prefer you to see people moving,

我倒希望你看到人在移動

and you're going, "Whoa, what was that?"

然後你說："哇，這是什麼？"

(Music)

(音樂)

JT: If I give enough movement in the sculpture,

如果我給那些雕像再多一點的動作

and the actor moves their head, you feel like it's alive.

要演員去移動他們的頭 你會覺得是真人

It's really comic book live. It's a comic book coming alive.

真的是把漫畫活生生地搬上台

(Music)

(音樂)

Bono: They're mythologies.

Bono：這簡直是神話故事

They're modern myths, these comic book heroes.

這些漫畫主角 確實是現代版的神話故事

PP: ♪ They believe. ♪

Peter Parker：他們都相信

(Screams)

(尖叫聲)

(Music)

(音樂)

(Applause)

(鼓掌聲)

JT: Ohhhh. What was that?

哇，那是什麼啊？

Circus, rock 'n' roll, drama.

既像馬戲團，又有搖滾樂跟戲劇成分

What the hell are we doing up there on that stage?

我們在那個舞台上究竟在搞什麼？

Well, one last story, very quickly.

很快地，跟大家分享最後一個故事

After I was in that village, I crossed the lake,

去完那個小村莊之後 我去了一個湖的對岸

and I saw that the volcano was erupting

看到另外一頭

on the other side, Gunung Batur,

巴杜爾火山噴發

and there was a dead volcano next to the live volcano.

而在那個活火山的旁邊，有個死火山

I didn't think I'd be swallowed by the volcano,

我當時沒想過自己可能會被火山給吞滅

and I am here.

雖然確實沒有 因為我還站在這

But it's very easy to climb up, is it not?

但是要爬上去還滿容易的嘛，不是嗎？

You hold on to the roots,

你就抓著那些樹的樹根

you put your foot in the little rocks

然後把腳踩在小石塊上

and climb up there, and you get to the top,

不一會就爬到頂部了

and I was with a good friend who was an actor,

我當時跟一個做演員的朋友一塊爬上去的

and we said, "Let's go up there.

我們就說：一起爬上去吧

Let's see if we can come close to the edge

看看我們能不能爬到那座活火山口去

of that live volcano."

看看我們能不能爬到那座活火山口去

And we climbed up and we got to the very top,

我們就爬了也真的到最頂部了

and we're on the edge, on this precipice,

我們就站在那個火山口 那個危險的邊緣

Roland disappears into the sulfur smoke

硫磺的煙把Roland都給遮住了

at the volcano at the other end,

他在火山口的另一邊

and I'm up there alone

就只剩下我自己在那裡

on this incredible precipice.

在這個難以形容的危險邊緣

Did you hear the lyrics?

你剛有聽見那段歌詞嗎

I'm on the precipice looking down

我站在這個邊緣往下看

into a dead volcano to my left.

看到在我左手邊是一個死火山

To my right is sheer shale. It's coming off.

右手邊則是陡峭的頁岩壁 而且還在一塊塊地崩落

I'm in thongs and sarongs. It was many years ago.

我穿著拖鞋跟沙龍 那是很多年前了

And no hiking boots.

還不是登山鞋喔！

And he's disappeared, this mad French gypsy actor,

然後他突然間不見了 我那個瘋瘋癲癲的法國吉普賽演員朋友

off in the smoke, and I realize,

就這麼消失在煙霧裡 然後我意識到

I can't go back the way that I've come. I can't.

我沒辦法從我剛來的路回去 真的沒辦法

So I throw away my camera. I throw away my thongs,

所以我把相機給丟了 把腳上的拖鞋也踢掉

and I looked at the line straight in front of me,

然後我看著我面前那條必須跨過去的路

and I got down on all fours like a cat,

我像隻貓一樣四隻腳著地趴在地上

and I held with my knees to either side

試著把膝蓋跨過去

of this line in front of me,

比比看有多寬

for 30 yards or 30 feet, I don't know.

大概有三十碼或三十呎吧 我也不太清楚

The wind was massively blowing,

風颳得很大

and the only way I could get to the other side

那是我唯一可以去到另外一邊的路

was to look at the line straight in front of me.

就是在我面前這條必須跨過去的線

I know you've all been there.

我知道你們大概都有過類似經驗

I'm in the crucible right now.

就是這樣一個嚴酷的考驗

It's my trial by fire.

那是我的過火試煉

It's my company's trials by fire.

也是我公司的試煉

We survive because our theme song is "Rise Above."

我們成功地跨過去了 因為主題曲就叫做"超越"

Boy falls from the sky, rise above.

男孩從天掉落 但跨越一切

It's right there in the palm of both of our hands,

機會就在我們的雙手中

of all of my company's hands.

也在我公司所有人的手中

I have beautiful collaborators, and we as creators

我有很棒的工作團隊 而身為創意工作者的我們

only get there all together.

唯有一起跨越才行

I know you understand that.

我知道你們了解我在說的是什麼

And you just stay going forward,

繼續向前走就對了

and then you see this extraordinary thing

一旦跨越了

in front of your eyes.

眼前的美景就能盡收眼底

Thank you.

謝謝大家

(Applause)

(鼓掌聲)