Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt

366,624 views ・ 2016-11-08

TED


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

Prevodilac: Ivana Krivokuća Lektor: Tijana Mihajlović
00:12
Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.
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Kris Anderson: Dakle, Džone, ovo deluje zastrašujuće.
00:15
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.
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Džonatan Hajt: Da.
00:16
CA: It feels like the world is in a place
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KA: Čini se kao da se svet nalazi u situaciji
00:18
that we haven't seen for a long time.
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kakvu dugo nismo videli.
00:20
People don't just disagree in the way that we're familiar with,
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Ljudi se međusobno ne slažu ne samo na načine koji su nam poznati,
00:24
on the left-right political divide.
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u pogledu političke podele na levicu i desnicu.
00:26
There are much deeper differences afoot.
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Dešavaju se mnogo dublje razlike.
00:29
What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?
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Šta se, pobogu, dešava i kako smo dospeli ovde?
00:33
JH: This is different.
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DžH: Ovo je drugačije.
00:36
There's a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.
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Postoji neka vrsta osećaja koja je mnogo više apokaliptična.
00:39
Survey research by Pew Research shows
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Anketa koju je sproveo centar za istraživanje Pju pokazuje
00:41
that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just --
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da je stepen u kome smatramo da druga strana nije samo -
00:45
we don't just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,
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ne samo da nam se ne dopadaju, žestoko nam se ne dopadaju,
00:48
and we think that they are a threat to the nation.
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i mislimo da predstavljaju opasnost za naciju.
00:51
Those numbers have been going up and up,
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Ti brojevi su se sve više povećavali
00:53
and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.
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i sada su preko 50 posto na obe strane.
00:56
People are scared,
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Ljudi su uplašeni jer se čini da je drugačije nego pre;
00:57
because it feels like this is different than before; it's much more intense.
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mnogo je intenzivnije.
Kad god sagledavam bilo koju vrstu društvene zagonetke,
01:01
Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,
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uvek primenjujem tri osnovna principa moralne psihologije,
01:04
I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,
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i mislim da će nam oni ovde pomoći.
01:07
and I think they'll help us here.
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01:09
So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind
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Prva stvar koju uvek morate da imate na umu
01:11
when you're thinking about politics
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kada razmišljate o politici
01:13
is that we're tribal.
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jeste da smo plemenske prirode.
01:15
We evolved for tribalism.
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Razvili smo se za tribalizam.
01:16
One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature
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Jedan od najjednostavnijih i najboljih uvida
u društvenu prirodu ljudi je beduinska izreka:
01:19
is the Bedouin proverb:
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01:20
"Me against my brother;
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„Ja protiv svog brata;
01:22
me and my brother against our cousin;
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ja i moj brat protiv našeg rođaka;
01:24
me and my brother and cousins against the stranger."
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ja, moj brat i rođaci protiv neznanca.“
01:26
And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies
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To plemenstvo nam je omogućilo da stvorimo velika društva
01:31
and to come together in order to compete with others.
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i da se udružimo da bismo se nadmetali sa drugima.
01:34
That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,
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To nas je izvelo iz džungle i iz malih grupa,
01:38
but it means that we have eternal conflict.
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ali to znači da imamo večni konflikt.
01:40
The question you have to look at is:
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Pitanje koje treba da posmatrate je
koji aspekti našeg društva to zaoštravaju,
01:42
What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,
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01:44
and what are calming them down?
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a koji smiruju.
01:46
CA: That's a very dark proverb.
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KA: To je vrlo mračna izreka.
01:47
You're saying that that's actually baked into most people's mental wiring
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Hoćeš da kažeš da je to zapravo urezano u mentalnu strukturu većine ljudi
01:52
at some level?
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u izvesnoj meri?
01:53
JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.
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DžH: O, apsolutno. To je osnovni aspekt ljudske društvene kognicije.
No, takođe možemo živeti zajedno i zaista mirno,
01:57
But we can also live together really peacefully,
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01:59
and we've invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.
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i osmislili smo razne zabavne načine kao da se igramo rata.
02:02
I mean, sports, politics --
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Mislim, sport, politika -
02:04
these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature
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sve su to načini na koje možemo da izrazimo tu plemensku prirodu
a da zapravo nikoga ne povredimo.
02:08
without actually hurting anyone.
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02:09
We're also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.
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Takođe smo zaista dobri u trgovini, istraživanju i upoznavanju novih ljudi.
Tako da treba da vidite naš tribalizam kao nešto što ide nabolje ili nagore -
02:14
So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down --
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02:17
it's not like we're doomed to always be fighting each other,
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ne može se reći da smo osuđeni da se uvek međusobno borimo,
02:20
but we'll never have world peace.
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ali nikada nećemo imati mir u svetu.
02:22
CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.
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KA: Veličina tog plemena može da se smanjuje ili povećava.
DžH: Baš tako.
02:26
JH: Right.
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02:27
CA: The size of what we consider "us"
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KA: Veličina onoga što smatramo „nama“
02:29
and what we consider "other" or "them"
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i onoga što smatramo „drugima“ ili „njima“
02:31
can change.
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može se promeniti.
02:34
And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.
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Neki ljudi su smatrali da se taj proces može odvijati unedogled.
02:40
JH: That's right.
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DžH: Tako je.
02:41
CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.
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KA: A mi smo zaista uvećavali taj osećaj plemena neko vreme.
02:44
JH: So this is, I think,
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DžH: Ovo je, ja mislim, ono šta podrazumevamo
02:45
where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction.
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pod mogućom novom razlikom između levice i desnice.
Mislim, podela na levo i desno kakvu smo je svi mi nasledili
02:49
I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it,
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02:51
comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,
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proističe iz razlike rada naspram kapitala,
02:54
and the working class, and Marx.
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radničke klase i Marksa.
02:56
But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly,
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Međutim, mislim da sada sve više vidimo
02:59
is a divide in all the Western democracies
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podelu u celokupnoj zapadnoj demokratiji
03:01
between the people who want to stop at nation,
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između ljudi koji žele da se zaustave na naciji,
03:05
the people who are more parochial --
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ljudi koji su više parohijalni -
03:07
and I don't mean that in a bad way --
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a to ne mislim na loš način -
ljudi koji imaju mnogo jači osećaj ukorenjenosti,
03:09
people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,
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03:12
they care about their town, their community and their nation.
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stalo im je do svog grada, zajednice i nacije.
03:15
And then those who are anti-parochial and who --
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Zatim su tu oni koji su antiparohijalni i koji -
03:19
whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine."
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kad god se zbunim, samo pomislim na pesmu Džona Lenona „Zamisli“.
„Zamisli da nema država, ničeg za šta treba ubiti ili umreti.“
03:23
"Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for."
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Dakle, to su ljudi koji žele više globalnog upravljanja,
03:26
And so these are the people who want more global governance,
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03:29
they don't like nation states, they don't like borders.
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koji ne vole nacionalne države i ne vole granice.
03:32
You see this all over Europe as well.
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To, takođe, vidite širom Evrope.
03:33
There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare --
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Postoji jedan sjajan metaforični tip - zapravo, njegovo ime je Šekspir -
03:37
writing ten years ago in Britain.
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koji je pisao u Britaniji pre deset godina.
03:38
He had a metaphor:
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03:39
"Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"
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Imao je metaforu
„Da li smo oni koji podižu pokretni most ili oni koji ga spuštaju?“
03:43
And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.
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Britanija je podeljena 52:48 u vezi sa tom temom.
03:46
And America is divided on that point, too.
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Amerika je takođe podeljena u vezi sa time.
03:49
CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles
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KA: Oni među nama koji su odrasli uz Bitlse
03:52
and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world --
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i takvu vrstu filozofije hipika maštanja o povezanijem svetu -
03:56
it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?"
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to se činilo tako idealističko i „kako neko može da pomisli loše o tome?“
04:00
And what you're saying is that, actually,
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A ti govoriš, zapravo,
04:02
millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly;
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da milioni ljudi danas smatraju da je to ne samo blesavo,
04:07
it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.
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već je zapravo opasno i pogrešno, i plaše se toga.
04:09
JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,
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DžH: Mislim da je veliki problem, pogotovo u Evropi ali i ovde,
pitanje imigracije.
04:13
is the issue of immigration.
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Mislim da ovde moramo da vrlo pažljivo pogledamo
04:14
And I think this is where we have to look very carefully
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04:17
at the social science about diversity and immigration.
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društvene nauke o raznolikosti i imigraciji.
04:21
Once something becomes politicized,
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Kada nešto postane politizovano,
04:22
once it becomes something that the left loves and the right --
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kada postane nešto što levica voli, a desnica -
04:25
then even the social scientists can't think straight about it.
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onda čak ni društveni naučnici ne mogu ispravno da razmišljaju o tome.
E, sad, raznolikost je dobra na mnogo načina.
04:29
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.
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04:31
It clearly creates more innovation.
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Jasno je da stvara više inovacija.
04:33
The American economy has grown enormously from it.
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Američka ekonomija se neverovatno razvila usled nje.
04:35
Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.
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Raznolikost i imigracija čine mnogo dobrih stvari.
04:38
But what the globalists, I think, don't see,
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Međutim, ono što globalisti, po meni, ne vide -
04:40
what they don't want to see,
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ono što ne žele da vide -
04:42
is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.
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je da etnička raznolikost narušava društveni kapital i poverenje.
04:48
There's a very important study by Robert Putnam,
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Postoji veoma važna studija Roberta Patnama,
04:51
the author of "Bowling Alone,"
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autora „Kuglanja sa samim sobom“,
04:52
looking at social capital databases.
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koja sagledava baze podataka društvenog kapitala.
04:54
And basically, the more people feel that they are the same,
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U suštini, što više ljudi smatra da su isti,
04:57
the more they trust each other,
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više veruju jedni drugima,
04:59
the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state.
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više mogu da imaju državu blagostanja preraspodeljenosti.
Skandinavske zemlje su tako divne
05:02
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful
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jer imaju tu tradiciju malih, homogenih država.
05:04
because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries.
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05:07
And that leads to a progressive welfare state,
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To dovodi do napredne države blagostanja,
05:11
a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says,
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skupa naprednih vrednosti usmerenih ulevo, koje kažu:
05:14
"Drawbridge down! The world is a great place.
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„Spuštajte most! Svet je sjajno mesto.
05:17
People in Syria are suffering -- we must welcome them in."
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Ljudi u Siriji pate - moramo im pružiti dobrodošlicu.“
05:20
And it's a beautiful thing.
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To je prelepo.
05:21
But if, and I was in Sweden this summer,
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Međutim, ako - a bio sam u Švedskoj letos -
05:24
if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct
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ako je diskurs u Švedskoj prilično politički korektan
05:27
and they can't talk about the downsides,
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i ne mogu da pričaju o lošim stranama,
05:30
you end up bringing a lot of people in.
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na kraju dovedete mnogo ljudi.
To će narušiti društveni kapital,
05:32
That's going to cut social capital,
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05:33
it makes it hard to have a welfare state
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to otežava održavanje države blagostanja
05:35
and they might end up, as we have in America,
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i mogli bi da završe, kao što to imamo u Americi,
05:38
with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society.
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sa rasno podeljenim, vidno rasno podeljenim društvom.
05:41
So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about.
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O svemu ovome je vrlo neugodno govoriti.
Ipak, mislim da je to, naročito u Evropi kao i za nas,
05:44
But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too,
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ono što treba da sagledavamo.
05:47
we need to be looking at.
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KA: Kažeš da razumni ljudi,
05:48
CA: You're saying that people of reason,
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05:50
people who would consider themselves not racists,
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ljudi koji sebe ne bi smatrali rasistima,
05:53
but moral, upstanding people,
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već moralnim, uzornim ljudima,
imaju obrazloženje koje tvrdi da su ljudi jednostavno previše različiti;
05:55
have a rationale that says humans are just too different;
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05:58
that we're in danger of overloading our sense of what humans are capable of,
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da smo u opasnosti da preopteretimo naš osećaj za ono što su ljudi sposobni
06:03
by mixing in people who are too different.
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mešanjem ljudi koji su previše različiti.
06:06
JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable
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DžH: Da, ali mogu to da učinim prihvatljivijim
06:09
by saying it's not necessarily about race.
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time što ću reći da se ne mora nužno raditi o rasi.
06:12
It's about culture.
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Radi se o kulturi.
06:14
There's wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner,
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Postoji sjajno delo politikološkinje po imenu Karen Stener koja pokazuje da,
06:18
who shows that when people have a sense
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kada ljudi imaju utisak da smo svi udruženi, da smo svi isti,
06:21
that we are all united, we're all the same,
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06:23
there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism.
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postoji mnogo ljudi koji imaju predispoziciju ka autoritarizmu.
06:27
Those people aren't particularly racist
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Ti ljudi nisu osobito rasisti
06:29
when they feel as through there's not a threat
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kada ne osećaju da postoji pretnja
06:31
to our social and moral order.
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našem društvenom i moralnom poretku.
Međutim, ako ih u eksperimentu navedete da pomisle da se razdvajamo,
06:33
But if you prime them experimentally
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06:35
by thinking we're coming apart, people are getting more different,
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da ljudi postaju drugačiji,
onda oni u većoj meri postaju rasistički, homofobno nastrojeni,
06:38
then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants.
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žele da izbace devijantne.
06:41
So it's in part that you get an authoritarian reaction.
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Stoga jednim delom dobijate autoritarnu reakciju.
06:44
The left, following through the Lennonist line --
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Levica, sledeći Lenonovski put -
06:47
the John Lennon line --
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put Džona Lenona -
06:48
does things that create an authoritarian reaction.
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čini stvari koje proizvode autoritarnu reakciju.
06:50
We're certainly seeing that in America with the alt-right.
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Zasigurno to vidimo u Americi sa alternativnom desnicom.
06:53
We saw it in Britain, we've seen it all over Europe.
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To smo videli u Britaniji, videli smo to širom Evrope.
06:56
But the more positive part of that
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Ipak, pozitivniji deo toga
06:58
is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right --
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je to što smatram da su lokalisti, ili nacionalisti, zapravo u pravu -
07:03
that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity,
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da, ako naglasite našu kulturološku sličnost,
07:07
then race doesn't actually matter very much.
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onda rasa zapravo nije mnogo bitna.
07:09
So an assimilationist approach to immigration
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Stoga asimilacioni pristup imigraciji
otklanja mnogo ovih problema.
07:12
removes a lot of these problems.
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07:13
And if you value having a generous welfare state,
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A ako vrednujete posedovanje darežljive države blagostanja,
07:16
you've got to emphasize that we're all the same.
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morate naglasiti da smo svi mi isti.
07:18
CA: OK, so rising immigration and fears about that
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KA: U redu, dakle, porast imigracije i strahovi u vezi sa tim
07:21
are one of the causes of the current divide.
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su jedan od uzroka trenutne podeljenosti.
07:25
What are other causes?
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Koji su drugi razlozi?
07:26
JH: The next principle of moral psychology
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DžH: Sledeći princip moralne psihologije
07:28
is that intuitions come first, strategic reasoning second.
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je da je intuicija na prvom mestu, a strateško rezonovanje na drugom.
07:32
You've probably heard the term "motivated reasoning"
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Verovatno ste čuli za termin „motivisano rezonovanje“
07:35
or "confirmation bias."
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ili „pristrasnost potvrđivanja“.
07:36
There's some really interesting work
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Postoje veoma zanimljivi radovi
07:38
on how our high intelligence and our verbal abilities
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o tome kako su naša visoka inteligencija i verbalne sposobnosti
07:41
might have evolved not to help us find out the truth,
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možda evoluirale ne da bi nam pomogle da otkrijemo istinu,
već da bi nam pomogli da manipulišemo jedni drugima,
07:45
but to help us manipulate each other, defend our reputation ...
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da branimo svoju reputaciju...
07:48
We're really, really good at justifying ourselves.
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Zaista nam dobro ide opravdavanje samih sebe.
07:51
And when you bring group interests into account,
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A kada uzmete u obzir grupne interese,
07:53
so it's not just me, it's my team versus your team,
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tako da nisam samo ja u pitanju, već je moj tim protiv tvog tima,
07:56
whereas if you're evaluating evidence that your side is wrong,
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a ako procenjuješ dokaze da tvoja strana greši,
07:59
we just can't accept that.
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to prosto ne možemo da prihvatimo.
08:01
So this is why you can't win a political argument.
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Zbog toga ne možete pobediti u političkoj raspravi.
08:03
If you're debating something,
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Ako raspravljate o nečemu,
08:05
you can't persuade the person with reasons and evidence,
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ne možete ubediti osobu razlozima i dokazima,
08:08
because that's not the way reasoning works.
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jer rezonovanje ne funkcioniše tako.
08:10
So now, give us the internet, give us Google:
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Dajte nam sad internet, dajte nam Gugl:
08:14
"I heard that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.
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„Čuo sam da je Barak Obama rođen u Keniji.
08:17
Let me Google that -- oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"
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Daj da to izguglam. O, bože! Deset miliona pogodaka! Vidi, istina je!“
08:21
CA: So this has come as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of people.
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KA: To je proizašlo kao neprijatno iznenađenje za mnoge.
08:24
Social media has often been framed by techno-optimists
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Društvene mreže su tehnološki optimisti često predstavljali
08:27
as this great connecting force that would bring people together.
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kao veliku silu povezivanja koja će udružiti ljude.
08:32
And there have been some unexpected counter-effects to that.
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A došlo je do neočekivanih kontraefekata.
08:36
JH: That's right.
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DžH: Tako je.
Zato sam jako zaljubljen u stanovišta jin-jang
08:38
That's why I'm very enamored of yin-yang views
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08:40
of human nature and left-right --
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o ljudskoj prirodi i levice-desnice -
da je svaka strana u pravu u vezi sa određenim stvarima,
08:42
that each side is right about certain things,
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08:44
but then it goes blind to other things.
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ali zatim postaje slepa za druge stvari.
08:46
And so the left generally believes that human nature is good:
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Tako levica obično veruje da je ljudska priroda dobra -
08:49
bring people together, knock down the walls and all will be well.
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spojite ljude, srušite zidove i sve će biti u redu.
08:52
The right -- social conservatives, not libertarians --
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Desnica - društveni konzervativci, ne libertarijanci -
08:55
social conservatives generally believe people can be greedy
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društveni konzervativci generalno veruju da ljudi mogu biti pohlepni,
08:59
and sexual and selfish,
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seksualni i sebični,
09:01
and we need regulation, and we need restrictions.
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da su nam potrebni propisi i ograničenja.
09:04
So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,
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Dakle, da, ako srušite sve zidove,
09:06
allow people to communicate all over the world,
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dozvolite ljudima da komuniciraju širom sveta,
09:08
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.
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dobijete mnogo pornografije i mnogo rasizma.
09:10
CA: So help us understand.
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KA: Pomozi nam da razumemo.
09:12
These principles of human nature have been with us forever.
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Ovi principi ljudske prirode su oduvek bili uz nas.
09:18
What's changed that's deepened this feeling of division?
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Šta se promenilo što je produbilo ovaj osećaj podele?
09:24
JH: You have to see six to ten different threads all coming together.
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DžH: Morate da vidite kako se šest do deset niti povezuju.
09:29
I'll just list a couple of them.
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Navešću samo par njih.
09:31
So in America, one of the big -- actually, America and Europe --
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U Americi, jedna od velikih - zapravo, u Americi i Evropi -
09:35
one of the biggest ones is World War II.
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jedna od najvećih je Drugi svetski rat.
09:37
There's interesting research from Joe Henrich and others
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Postoji zanimljivo istraživanje Džoa Henrika i ostalih koje kaže da,
09:40
that says if your country was at war,
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ako je tvoja zemlja bila u ratu,
09:42
especially when you were young,
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naročito kada si bio mlad,
09:44
then we test you 30 years later in a commons dilemma
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a onda te testiramo 30 godina kasnije kroz problem tragedije zajedničkih dobara
09:47
or a prisoner's dilemma,
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ili dilemu zatvorenika,
09:49
you're more cooperative.
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naklonjeniji si saradnji.
09:50
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --
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Usled naše plemenske prirode, ako si -
09:53
my parents were teenagers during World War II,
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moji roditelji su bili tinejdžeri za vreme Drugog svetskog rata
09:56
and they would go out looking for scraps of aluminum
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i išli bi da tragaju za komadićima aluminijuma
09:59
to help the war effort.
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da bi pomogli u ratnim nastojanjima.
10:00
I mean, everybody pulled together.
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Mislim, svi su sarađivali.
10:02
And so then these people go on,
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Tako, kada ovi ljudi nastave dalje,
10:04
they rise up through business and government,
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uzdignu se kroz posao i upravu
10:06
they take leadership positions.
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i zauzimaju vodeće položaje.
10:08
They're really good at compromise and cooperation.
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Veoma im dobro ide ostvarivanje kompromisa i saradnje.
10:11
They all retire by the '90s.
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1935
Svi se penzionišu do '90-ih godina.
10:13
So we're left with baby boomers by the end of the '90s.
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Tako nam ostaju predstavnici bejbi bum generacije na kraju '90-ih.
10:17
And their youth was spent fighting each other within each country,
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A njihova mladost je prošla u međusobnim borbama unutar svake zemlje,
10:21
in 1968 and afterwards.
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1968. godine i nakon toga.
10:22
The loss of the World War II generation, "The Greatest Generation,"
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Gubitak generacije Drugog svetskog rata, „najveće generacije“, ogroman je.
10:26
is huge.
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10:28
So that's one.
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To je jedna stvar.
10:30
Another, in America, is the purification of the two parties.
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Druga stvar, u Americi je prečišćavanje dve stranke.
10:33
There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.
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Ranije su bili liberalni republikanci i konzervativne demokrate.
10:37
So America had a mid-20th century that was really bipartisan.
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U Americi je tako sredina 20. veka bila zapravo dvopartijska.
10:40
But because of a variety of factors that started things moving,
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Međutim, zbog mnoštva faktora koji su pokrenuli stvari,
10:44
by the 90's, we had a purified liberal party and conservative party.
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do '90-ih godina, imali smo pročišćenu liberalnu i konzervativnu stranku.
10:48
So now, the people in either party really are different,
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Tako su sada ljudi u obe stranke zaista različiti
10:50
and we really don't want our children to marry them,
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i zaista ne želimo da se naša deca venčaju sa njima,
što '60-ih godina nije bilo naročito važno.
10:53
which, in the '60s, didn't matter very much.
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2068
10:55
So, the purification of the parties.
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Dakle, pročišćavanje stranaka.
10:57
Third is the internet and, as I said,
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Treći je internet i, kao što sam rekao,
10:59
it's just the most amazing stimulant for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.
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to je prosto najneverovatniji podsticaj za naknadno rezonovanje i demonizaciju.
11:04
CA: The tone of what's happening on the internet now is quite troubling.
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KA: Ton onoga što se danas dešava na internetu prilično zabrinjava.
11:09
I just did a quick search on Twitter about the election
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2847
Upravo sam na brzinu obavio pretragu na Tviteru o izborima
11:12
and saw two tweets next to each other.
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i video dva tvita, jedan pored drugog.
11:15
One, against a picture of racist graffiti:
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4212
Jedan je pored slike rasističkog grafita:
11:20
"This is disgusting!
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„Ovo je odvratno!
11:21
Ugliness in this country, brought to us by #Trump."
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Ružnoća u ovoj zemlji, priredio #Tramp.“
11:25
And then the next one is:
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Sledeći je:
11:27
"Crooked Hillary dedication page. Disgusting!"
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„Prevarantska Hilarina strana za posvete. Odvratno!“
11:31
So this idea of "disgust" is troubling to me.
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Ova ideja „odvratnosti“ me zabrinjava.
11:35
Because you can have an argument or a disagreement about something,
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Jer možete se raspravljati ili se ne slagati u vezi sa nečim
11:38
you can get angry at someone.
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i možete se naljutiti na nekoga.
11:41
Disgust, I've heard you say, takes things to a much deeper level.
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Gađenje, kako sam čuo od tebe, prenosi stvari na mnogo viši nivo.
11:44
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.
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1887
DžH: Tako je. Gađenje je drugačije.
11:46
Anger -- you know, I have kids.
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1963
Bes - znate, ja imam decu.
11:48
They fight 10 times a day,
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1750
Oni se svađaju deset puta dnevno
11:50
and they love each other 30 times a day.
255
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1967
i vole jedno drugog 30 puta dnevno.
11:52
You just go back and forth: you get angry, you're not angry;
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Samo idete tamo-amo: ljuti ste, niste ljuti;
ljuti ste, niste ljuti.
11:55
you're angry, you're not angry.
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1523
11:56
But disgust is different.
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Međutim, gađenje je drugačije.
11:58
Disgust paints the person as subhuman, monstrous,
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Gađenje predstavlja drugu osobu kao nedovoljno ljudsku, monstruoznu,
12:02
deformed, morally deformed.
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1809
nakaznu, moralno nakaznu.
12:04
Disgust is like indelible ink.
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Gađenje je poput neizbrisivog mastila.
12:07
There's research from John Gottman on marital therapy.
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Postoji istraživanje Džona Gotmana o bračnoj terapiji.
12:11
If you look at the faces -- if one of the couple shows disgust or contempt,
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5125
Ako pogledate lica - ako jedan par pokazuje gađenje ili prezir,
12:16
that's a predictor that they're going to get divorced soon,
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to je pokazatelj da će se uskoro razvesti,
12:19
whereas if they show anger, that doesn't predict anything,
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dok ako pokazuju bes, to ništa ne previđa,
jer ako dobro izlazite na kraj sa besom, on je zapravo dobar.
12:22
because if you deal with anger well, it actually is good.
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Dakle, ovi izbori su drugačiji.
12:25
So this election is different.
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1452
12:26
Donald Trump personally uses the word "disgust" a lot.
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3654
Lično Donald Tramp dosta koristi reč „odvratno“.
12:30
He's very germ-sensitive, so disgust does matter a lot --
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2857
On je veoma osetljiv na mikrobe, tako da je gađenje zaista vrlo bitno -
12:33
more for him, that's something unique to him --
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3910
dodatno za njega, to je nešto što je osobeno za njega -
12:37
but as we demonize each other more,
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ali kako više demonizujemo jedni druge,
12:40
and again, through the Manichaean worldview,
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a opet, kroz manihejsko gledište,
12:43
the idea that the world is a battle between good and evil
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2730
ideju da je svet bitka između dobra i zla
dok se ovo pojačavalo,
12:46
as this has been ramping up,
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1347
12:47
we're more likely not just to say they're wrong or I don't like them,
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3326
više smo skloni ne samo da kažemo da oni greše ili da nam se ne dopadaju,
već kažemo da su zli, satanistički,
12:51
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,
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2536
12:53
they're disgusting, they're revolting.
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1921
gadni, odvratni.
12:55
And then we want nothing to do with them.
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I onda ne želimo ništa sa njima.
12:58
And that's why I think we're seeing it, for example, on campus now.
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3487
Zato mislim da to danas vidimo u studentskim domovima, na primer.
13:02
We're seeing more the urge to keep people off campus,
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2640
Vidimo veću potrebu da se ljudi udalje iz domova,
13:04
silence them, keep them away.
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1945
da se ućutkaju, drže podalje.
13:06
I'm afraid that this whole generation of young people,
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2595
Bojim se da će čitava ova generacija mladih,
ako njihovo upoznavanje sa politikom obuhvata mnogo gađenja,
13:09
if their introduction to politics involves a lot of disgust,
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3793
13:13
they're not going to want to be involved in politics as they get older.
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neće hteti da se bave politikom kada postanu stariji.
13:17
CA: So how do we deal with that?
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1840
KA: Pa kako da se izborimo sa tim?
13:19
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?
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4480
Gađenje. Kako da umanjite gađenje?
13:24
JH: You can't do it with reasons.
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1948
DžH: To ne možete razumom.
13:27
I think ...
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1191
Ja mislim...
13:30
I studied disgust for many years, and I think about emotions a lot.
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3217
Izučavao sam gađenje godinama i mnogo razmišljam o emocijama.
13:33
And I think that the opposite of disgust is actually love.
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3525
Mislim da je suprotnost gađenju zapravo ljubav.
13:37
Love is all about, like ...
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3091
Ljubav se odnosi na...
13:41
Disgust is closing off, borders.
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2571
Gađenje je zatvaranje granica.
13:43
Love is about dissolving walls.
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2545
Ljubav predstavlja poništavanje zidova.
13:47
So personal relationships, I think,
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Tako da su lični odnosi, po meni,
13:49
are probably the most powerful means we have.
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verovatno najmoćnije sredstvo koje imamo.
13:53
You can be disgusted by a group of people,
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2697
Možete biti zgađeni nad grupom ljudi,
13:56
but then you meet a particular person
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1918
ali onda upoznate konkretnu osobu
13:57
and you genuinely discover that they're lovely.
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2776
i istinski saznate da je divna.
14:00
And then gradually that chips away or changes your category as well.
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4296
To zatim postepeno naruši ili promeni i vašu kategoriju.
14:06
The tragedy is, Americans used to be much more mixed up in the their towns
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5977
Tragedija je u tome što su Amerikanci
nekada bili mnogo više pomešani u svojim gradovima
14:12
by left-right or politics.
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2134
u pogledu levice-desnice ili politike.
14:14
And now that it's become this great moral divide,
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2331
A danas je to postala velika moralna podela;
14:16
there's a lot of evidence that we're moving to be near people
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3143
postoji mnogo dokaza da se selimo tako da budemo blizu ljudi
14:19
who are like us politically.
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1512
koji su slični nama politički.
Teže je naći nekog ko je na drugoj strani.
14:21
It's harder to find somebody who's on the other side.
305
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2530
14:23
So they're over there, they're far away.
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2290
Dakle, oni su tamo, daleko su.
14:26
It's harder to get to know them.
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1570
Teže je upoznati ih.
14:27
CA: What would you say to someone or say to Americans,
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4224
KA: Šta bi rekao nekome ili šta bi rekao Amerikancima,
14:31
people generally,
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1158
narodu uopšte,
14:33
about what we should understand about each other
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2609
o tome šta treba da shvatimo jedni o drugima
14:35
that might help us rethink for a minute
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3475
što bi nam moglo pomoći da na minut promislimo
14:39
this "disgust" instinct?
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2203
o ovom instinktu „gađenja“?
14:42
JH: Yes.
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1152
DžH: Da.
14:43
A really important thing to keep in mind --
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2153
Veoma bitna stvar koju treba imati na umu -
14:45
there's research by political scientist Alan Abramowitz,
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4716
postoji istraživanje politikologa Alana Abramovica
14:50
showing that American democracy is increasingly governed
316
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3993
koje pokazuje da američkom demokratijom u sve većoj meri upravlja
14:54
by what's called "negative partisanship."
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2243
ono što se naziva „negativno pristalištvo“.
14:56
That means you think, OK there's a candidate,
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3111
To znači da ti misliš da, u redu, postoji kandidat,
15:00
you like the candidate, you vote for the candidate.
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2406
dopada ti se kandidat, glasaš za kandidata.
15:02
But with the rise of negative advertising
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2059
Međutim, sa porastom negativnog reklamiranja,
15:04
and social media and all sorts of other trends,
321
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2224
društvenih medija i raznoraznih novih trendova,
15:06
increasingly, the way elections are done
322
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2041
izbori se sve više sprovode na taj način
15:08
is that each side tries to make the other side so horrible, so awful,
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3981
što svaka strana pokušava da učini drugu stranu toliko groznom, tako užasnom,
15:12
that you'll vote for my guy by default.
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2041
da se podrazumeva da ćeš glasati za mog čoveka.
15:15
And so as we more and more vote against the other side
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2970
Tako, dok sve više glasamo protiv druge strane
15:18
and not for our side,
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1331
a ne za svoju stranu,
15:19
you have to keep in mind that if people are on the left,
327
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5507
morate imati na umu da, ako su ljudi na levoj strani,
15:25
they think, "Well, I used to think that Republicans were bad,
328
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oni misle: „Pa, pre sam mislio da su republikanci loši,
ali sada to Donald Tramp dokazuje.
15:28
but now Donald Trump proves it.
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15:29
And now every Republican, I can paint with all the things
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I sada svakog republikanca mogu da predstavim svime onim
15:32
that I think about Trump."
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što mislim o Trampu.“
15:33
And that's not necessarily true.
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A to nije nužno tačno.
15:35
They're generally not very happy with their candidate.
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Oni generalno nisu baš zadovoljni svojim kandidatom.
15:38
This is the most negative partisanship election in American history.
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Ovo su izbori sa najnegativnijim poborništvom u američkoj istoriji.
15:43
So you have to first separate your feelings about the candidate
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Dakle, morate najpre da razdvojite svoja osećanja prema kandidatu
15:47
from your feelings about the people who are given a choice.
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od svojih osećanja prema ljudima kojima je dat izbor.
15:50
And then you have to realize that,
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A zatim treba da shvatite da,
15:53
because we all live in a separate moral world --
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zato što svi mi živimo u zasebnom moralnom svetu -
15:55
the metaphor I use in the book is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"
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metafora koju koristim u knjizi je da smo svi zarobljeni u „matriksu“,
15:59
or each moral community is a matrix, a consensual hallucination.
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ili da je svaka moralna zajednica matriks, konsenzualna halucinacija.
16:02
And so if you're within the blue matrix,
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Stoga, ako si u plavom matriksu,
16:04
everything's completely compelling that the other side --
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sve sasvim ubedljivo ukazuje da je druga strana -
16:08
they're troglodytes, they're racists, they're the worst people in the world,
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oni su pećinski ljudi, rasisti, najgori ljudi na svetu,
16:11
and you have all the facts to back that up.
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i imaš sve činjenice koje to potvrđuju.
16:13
But somebody in the next house from yours
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Međutim, neko u kući do vas
16:16
is living in a different moral matrix.
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živi u drugačijem moralnom matriksu.
16:18
They live in a different video game,
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On živi u drugačijoj video igrici
16:20
and they see a completely different set of facts.
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i vidi potpuno drugačiji skup činjenica.
16:22
And each one sees different threats to the country.
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I svako vidi drugačije pretnje za zemlju.
16:25
And what I've found from being in the middle
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Ono što sam otkrio ostajući u sredini
16:27
and trying to understand both sides is: both sides are right.
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i pokušavajući da razumem obe strane jeste da su obe strane u pravu.
16:30
There are a lot of threats to this country,
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Postoji mnogo opasnosti po ovu zemlju
16:32
and each side is constitutionally incapable of seeing them all.
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i svaka strana prirodno nije u stanju da ih sve sagleda.
16:36
CA: So, are you saying that we almost need a new type of empathy?
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KA: Dakle, hoćeš da kažeš da nam je maltene potrebna nova vrsta empatije?
16:43
Empathy is traditionally framed as:
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Empatija se obično formuliše kao:
16:45
"Oh, I feel your pain. I can put myself in your shoes."
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„O, osećam tvoju bol. Mogu da se postavim na tvoje mesto.“
16:48
And we apply it to the poor, the needy, the suffering.
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To primenjujemo na siromašnima, onima u nevolji, onima koji pate.
16:52
We don't usually apply it to people who we feel as other,
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Obično to ne primenjujemo na ljudima koje doživljavamo kao suprotstavljene
16:55
or we're disgusted by.
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ili koji nam se gade.
16:57
JH: No. That's right.
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DžH: Ne. Tako je.
16:58
CA: What would it look like to build that type of empathy?
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KA: Kako bi izgledalo izgraditi takvu vrstu empatije?
17:04
JH: Actually, I think ...
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DžH: Zapravo, smatram...
17:06
Empathy is a very, very hot topic in psychology,
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Empatija je vrlo aktuelna tema u psihologiji,
17:08
and it's a very popular word on the left in particular.
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a to je i vrlo popularna reč, naročito na levoj strani.
17:11
Empathy is a good thing, and empathy for the preferred classes of victims.
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Empatija je dobra stvar, i to empatija prema favorizovanim kategorijama žrtvi.
17:15
So it's important to empathize
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Važno je saosećati sa grupama
17:16
with the groups that we on the left think are so important.
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za koje mi sa leve strane mislimo da su vrlo bitne.
17:19
That's easy to do, because you get points for that.
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To je lako jer dobijate poene za to.
17:22
But empathy really should get you points if you do it when it's hard to do.
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Međutim, empatijom bi zapravo trebalo da dobijate poene kada je to teško.
17:26
And, I think ...
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I mislim...
17:28
You know, we had a long 50-year period of dealing with our race problems
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Znaš, imali smo dugi period od 50 godina suočavanja sa našim rasističkim problemima
17:33
and legal discrimination,
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i pravnom diskriminacijom,
17:35
and that was our top priority for a long time
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što je dugo bio naš glavni prioritet
17:37
and it still is important.
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i to je još uvek važno.
17:39
But I think this year,
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Mislim da će ove godine -
17:40
I'm hoping it will make people see
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nadam se da će postići da ljudi uvide
17:43
that we have an existential threat on our hands.
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da se nosimo sa egzistencijalnom pretnjom.
17:45
Our left-right divide, I believe,
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Naša podela na levo i desno, verujem,
17:48
is by far the most important divide we face.
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daleko je najvažnija podela sa kojom se suočavamo.
17:50
We still have issues about race and gender and LGBT,
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Još imamo probleme vezane za rasu, rod i zajednicu LGBT,
17:53
but this is the urgent need of the next 50 years,
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ali je ovo hitna potreba u narednih 50 godina,
17:57
and things aren't going to get better on their own.
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a stvari se neće poboljšati same od sebe.
Biće nam potrebno da sprovedemo mnogo institucionalnih reformi
18:01
So we're going to need to do a lot of institutional reforms,
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2835
18:03
and we could talk about that,
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i mogli bismo da govorimo o tome,
18:05
but that's like a whole long, wonky conversation.
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ali to je čitav dugačak i nestabilan razgovor.
18:07
But I think it starts with people realizing that this is a turning point.
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Mislim da počinje tako što ljudi shvate da je ovo prekretnica.
18:11
And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.
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2809
Da, potrebna nam je nova vrsta empatije.
18:14
We need to realize:
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1505
Treba da shvatimo
18:15
this is what our country needs,
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1542
da je ovo potrebno našoj zemlji,
18:17
and this is what you need if you don't want to --
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2354
a ovo je vama potrebno ako ne želite da -
18:19
Raise your hand if you want to spend the next four years
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Podignite ruku ako želite da provedete naredne četiri godine
18:22
as angry and worried as you've been for the last year -- raise your hand.
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ljuti i zabrinuti kao što ste bili protekle godine - podignite ruku.
Dakle, ako želite da pobegnete iz ovoga,
18:26
So if you want to escape from this,
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18:27
read Buddha, read Jesus, read Marcus Aurelius.
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čitajte Budu, Isusa, Marka Aurelija.
18:29
They have all kinds of great advice for how to drop the fear,
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Oni imaju raznorazne sjajne savete o tome kako napustiti strah,
preformulisati stvari,
18:35
reframe things,
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18:36
stop seeing other people as your enemy.
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prestati videti druge ljude kao svoje neprijatelje.
18:38
There's a lot of guidance in ancient wisdom for this kind of empathy.
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3307
U drevnoj mudrosti postoji mnogo smernica za ovu vrstu empatije.
18:41
CA: Here's my last question:
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KA: Evo mog poslednjeg pitanja.
Šta ljudi mogu učiniti na ličnom nivou da bi pomogli u isceljenju?
18:43
Personally, what can people do to help heal?
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4335
18:47
JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide to overcome your deepest prejudices.
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DžH: Da, vrlo je teško prosto odlučiti da prevaziđete svoje najdublje predrasude.
18:51
And there's research showing
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Postoji istraživanje koje pokazuje
18:53
that political prejudices are deeper and stronger than race prejudices
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4349
da su političke predrasude produbljenije i jače od rasnih predrasuda
18:57
in the country now.
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u zemlji danas.
18:59
So I think you have to make an effort -- that's the main thing.
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Mislim da morate da se potrudite - to je glavna stvar.
19:02
Make an effort to actually meet somebody.
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Potruditi se da zaista upoznate nekoga.
19:04
Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,
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Svako ima rođaka, zeta,
19:07
somebody who's on the other side.
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nekoga ko je na drugoj strani.
19:09
So, after this election --
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1816
Dakle, nakon ovih izbora -
19:11
wait a week or two,
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1351
sačekajte nedelju ili dve,
19:12
because it's probably going to feel awful for one of you --
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jer će verovatno biti grozno za jednog od vas -
ali sačekajte par nedelja i zatim mu se obratite
19:15
but wait a couple weeks, and then reach out and say you want to talk.
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i kažite da hoćete da razgovarate.
19:19
And before you do it,
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Pre nego što to uradite, pročitajte od Dejla Karnegija
19:21
read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" --
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„Kako zadobiti prijatelje i uticati na ljude.“
19:24
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
19:25
I'm totally serious.
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1167
Skroz sam ozbiljan.
19:26
You'll learn techniques if you start by acknowledging,
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Naučićete tehnike ako počnete uz priznanje,
tako što ćete reći:
19:29
if you start by saying,
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19:30
"You know, we don't agree on a lot,
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„Znaš, ne slažemo se oko mnogo toga,
ali jedno veoma cenim kod tebe, čika Bob“,
19:32
but one thing I really respect about you, Uncle Bob,"
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2538
ili „kod vas konzervativaca, a to je...“
19:34
or "... about you conservatives, is ... "
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19:36
And you can find something.
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A možete naći nešto.
Ako počnete sa malo uvažavanja, to deluje kao magija.
19:38
If you start with some appreciation, it's like magic.
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19:40
This is one of the main things I've learned
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Ovo je jedna od glavnih stvari koje sam naučio
19:42
that I take into my human relationships.
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koju unosim u svoje odnose sa ljudima.
19:44
I still make lots of stupid mistakes,
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I dalje činim mnogo glupih greški,
19:46
but I'm incredibly good at apologizing now,
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2016
ali sam sada neverovatno dobar u izvinjavanju
19:48
and at acknowledging what somebody was right about.
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i priznavanju nečega u vezi sa čim je neko bio u pravu.
19:51
And if you do that,
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Ako to radite,
19:52
then the conversation goes really well, and it's actually really fun.
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onda razgovor protiče veoma dobro i zapravo je veoma zabavan.
19:56
CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating speaking with you.
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KA: Džone, apsolutno je fascinantno razgovarati sa tobom.
19:59
It really does feel like the ground that we're on
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Zaista se čini da je tlo na kome se nalazimo
20:03
is a ground populated by deep questions of morality and human nature.
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nastanjeno dubokim pitanjima o moralnosti i ljudskoj prirodi.
20:08
Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.
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Tvoja mudrost je od izuzetnog značaja.
20:10
Thank you so much for sharing this time with us.
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Mnogo ti hvala što si podelio ovo vreme sa nama.
20:13
JH: Thanks, Chris.
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DžH: Hvala, Kris.
DžH: Hvala svima.
20:14
JH: Thanks, everyone.
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(Aplauz)
20:15
(Applause)
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