Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt

Prevodilac: Ivana Krivokuća Lektor: Tijana Mihajlović

Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

Kris Anderson: Dakle, Džone, ovo deluje zastrašujuće.

Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

Džonatan Hajt: Da.

CA: It feels like the world is in a place

KA: Čini se kao da se svet nalazi u situaciji

that we haven't seen for a long time.

kakvu dugo nismo videli.

People don't just disagree in the way that we're familiar with,

Ljudi se međusobno ne slažu ne samo na načine koji su nam poznati,

on the left-right political divide.

u pogledu političke podele na levicu i desnicu.

There are much deeper differences afoot.

Dešavaju se mnogo dublje razlike.

What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?

Šta se, pobogu, dešava i kako smo dospeli ovde?

JH: This is different.

DžH: Ovo je drugačije.

There's a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.

Postoji neka vrsta osećaja koja je mnogo više apokaliptična.

Survey research by Pew Research shows

Anketa koju je sproveo centar za istraživanje Pju pokazuje

that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just --

da je stepen u kome smatramo da druga strana nije samo -

we don't just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,

ne samo da nam se ne dopadaju, žestoko nam se ne dopadaju,

and we think that they are a threat to the nation.

i mislimo da predstavljaju opasnost za naciju.

Those numbers have been going up and up,

Ti brojevi su se sve više povećavali

and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.

i sada su preko 50 posto na obe strane.

People are scared,

Ljudi su uplašeni jer se čini da je drugačije nego pre;

because it feels like this is different than before; it's much more intense.

mnogo je intenzivnije.

Kad god sagledavam bilo koju vrstu društvene zagonetke,

Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,

uvek primenjujem tri osnovna principa moralne psihologije,

I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,

i mislim da će nam oni ovde pomoći.

and I think they'll help us here.

So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind

Prva stvar koju uvek morate da imate na umu

when you're thinking about politics

kada razmišljate o politici

is that we're tribal.

jeste da smo plemenske prirode.

We evolved for tribalism.

Razvili smo se za tribalizam.

One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature

Jedan od najjednostavnijih i najboljih uvida

u društvenu prirodu ljudi je beduinska izreka:

is the Bedouin proverb:

"Me against my brother;

„Ja protiv svog brata;

me and my brother against our cousin;

ja i moj brat protiv našeg rođaka;

me and my brother and cousins against the stranger."

ja, moj brat i rođaci protiv neznanca.“

And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies

To plemenstvo nam je omogućilo da stvorimo velika društva

and to come together in order to compete with others.

i da se udružimo da bismo se nadmetali sa drugima.

That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,

To nas je izvelo iz džungle i iz malih grupa,

but it means that we have eternal conflict.

ali to znači da imamo večni konflikt.

The question you have to look at is:

Pitanje koje treba da posmatrate je

koji aspekti našeg društva to zaoštravaju,

What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,

and what are calming them down?

a koji smiruju.

CA: That's a very dark proverb.

KA: To je vrlo mračna izreka.

You're saying that that's actually baked into most people's mental wiring

Hoćeš da kažeš da je to zapravo urezano u mentalnu strukturu većine ljudi

at some level?

u izvesnoj meri?

JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.

DžH: O, apsolutno. To je osnovni aspekt ljudske društvene kognicije.

No, takođe možemo živeti zajedno i zaista mirno,

But we can also live together really peacefully,

and we've invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.

i osmislili smo razne zabavne načine kao da se igramo rata.

I mean, sports, politics --

Mislim, sport, politika -

these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature

sve su to načini na koje možemo da izrazimo tu plemensku prirodu

a da zapravo nikoga ne povredimo.

without actually hurting anyone.

We're also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.

Takođe smo zaista dobri u trgovini, istraživanju i upoznavanju novih ljudi.

Tako da treba da vidite naš tribalizam kao nešto što ide nabolje ili nagore -

So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down --

it's not like we're doomed to always be fighting each other,

ne može se reći da smo osuđeni da se uvek međusobno borimo,

but we'll never have world peace.

ali nikada nećemo imati mir u svetu.

CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.

KA: Veličina tog plemena može da se smanjuje ili povećava.

DžH: Baš tako.

JH: Right.

CA: The size of what we consider "us"

KA: Veličina onoga što smatramo „nama“

and what we consider "other" or "them"

i onoga što smatramo „drugima“ ili „njima“

can change.

može se promeniti.

And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.

Neki ljudi su smatrali da se taj proces može odvijati unedogled.

JH: That's right.

DžH: Tako je.

CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.

KA: A mi smo zaista uvećavali taj osećaj plemena neko vreme.

JH: So this is, I think,

DžH: Ovo je, ja mislim, ono šta podrazumevamo

where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction.

pod mogućom novom razlikom između levice i desnice.

Mislim, podela na levo i desno kakvu smo je svi mi nasledili

I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it,

comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,

proističe iz razlike rada naspram kapitala,

and the working class, and Marx.

radničke klase i Marksa.

But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly,

Međutim, mislim da sada sve više vidimo

is a divide in all the Western democracies

podelu u celokupnoj zapadnoj demokratiji

between the people who want to stop at nation,

između ljudi koji žele da se zaustave na naciji,

the people who are more parochial --

ljudi koji su više parohijalni -

and I don't mean that in a bad way --

a to ne mislim na loš način -

ljudi koji imaju mnogo jači osećaj ukorenjenosti,

people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,

they care about their town, their community and their nation.

stalo im je do svog grada, zajednice i nacije.

And then those who are anti-parochial and who --

Zatim su tu oni koji su antiparohijalni i koji -

whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

kad god se zbunim, samo pomislim na pesmu Džona Lenona „Zamisli“.

„Zamisli da nema država, ničeg za šta treba ubiti ili umreti.“

"Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for."

Dakle, to su ljudi koji žele više globalnog upravljanja,

And so these are the people who want more global governance,

they don't like nation states, they don't like borders.

koji ne vole nacionalne države i ne vole granice.

You see this all over Europe as well.

To, takođe, vidite širom Evrope.

There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare --

Postoji jedan sjajan metaforični tip - zapravo, njegovo ime je Šekspir -

writing ten years ago in Britain.

koji je pisao u Britaniji pre deset godina.

He had a metaphor:

"Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"

Imao je metaforu

„Da li smo oni koji podižu pokretni most ili oni koji ga spuštaju?“

And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.

Britanija je podeljena 52:48 u vezi sa tom temom.

And America is divided on that point, too.

Amerika je takođe podeljena u vezi sa time.

CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles

KA: Oni među nama koji su odrasli uz Bitlse

and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world --

i takvu vrstu filozofije hipika maštanja o povezanijem svetu -

it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?"

to se činilo tako idealističko i „kako neko može da pomisli loše o tome?“

And what you're saying is that, actually,

A ti govoriš, zapravo,

millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly;

da milioni ljudi danas smatraju da je to ne samo blesavo,

it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.

već je zapravo opasno i pogrešno, i plaše se toga.

JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,

DžH: Mislim da je veliki problem, pogotovo u Evropi ali i ovde,

pitanje imigracije.

is the issue of immigration.

Mislim da ovde moramo da vrlo pažljivo pogledamo

And I think this is where we have to look very carefully

at the social science about diversity and immigration.

društvene nauke o raznolikosti i imigraciji.

Once something becomes politicized,

Kada nešto postane politizovano,

once it becomes something that the left loves and the right --

kada postane nešto što levica voli, a desnica -

then even the social scientists can't think straight about it.

onda čak ni društveni naučnici ne mogu ispravno da razmišljaju o tome.

E, sad, raznolikost je dobra na mnogo načina.

Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

It clearly creates more innovation.

Jasno je da stvara više inovacija.

The American economy has grown enormously from it.

Američka ekonomija se neverovatno razvila usled nje.

Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.

Raznolikost i imigracija čine mnogo dobrih stvari.

But what the globalists, I think, don't see,

Međutim, ono što globalisti, po meni, ne vide -

what they don't want to see,

ono što ne žele da vide -

is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.

je da etnička raznolikost narušava društveni kapital i poverenje.

There's a very important study by Robert Putnam,

Postoji veoma važna studija Roberta Patnama,

the author of "Bowling Alone,"

autora „Kuglanja sa samim sobom“,

looking at social capital databases.

koja sagledava baze podataka društvenog kapitala.

And basically, the more people feel that they are the same,

U suštini, što više ljudi smatra da su isti,

the more they trust each other,

više veruju jedni drugima,

the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state.

više mogu da imaju državu blagostanja preraspodeljenosti.

Skandinavske zemlje su tako divne

Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

jer imaju tu tradiciju malih, homogenih država.

because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries.

And that leads to a progressive welfare state,

To dovodi do napredne države blagostanja,

a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says,

skupa naprednih vrednosti usmerenih ulevo, koje kažu:

"Drawbridge down! The world is a great place.

„Spuštajte most! Svet je sjajno mesto.

People in Syria are suffering -- we must welcome them in."

Ljudi u Siriji pate - moramo im pružiti dobrodošlicu.“

And it's a beautiful thing.

To je prelepo.

But if, and I was in Sweden this summer,

Međutim, ako - a bio sam u Švedskoj letos -

if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct

ako je diskurs u Švedskoj prilično politički korektan

and they can't talk about the downsides,

i ne mogu da pričaju o lošim stranama,

you end up bringing a lot of people in.

na kraju dovedete mnogo ljudi.

To će narušiti društveni kapital,

That's going to cut social capital,

it makes it hard to have a welfare state

to otežava održavanje države blagostanja

and they might end up, as we have in America,

i mogli bi da završe, kao što to imamo u Americi,

with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society.

sa rasno podeljenim, vidno rasno podeljenim društvom.

So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about.

O svemu ovome je vrlo neugodno govoriti.

Ipak, mislim da je to, naročito u Evropi kao i za nas,

But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too,

ono što treba da sagledavamo.

we need to be looking at.

KA: Kažeš da razumni ljudi,

CA: You're saying that people of reason,

people who would consider themselves not racists,

ljudi koji sebe ne bi smatrali rasistima,

but moral, upstanding people,

već moralnim, uzornim ljudima,

imaju obrazloženje koje tvrdi da su ljudi jednostavno previše različiti;

have a rationale that says humans are just too different;

that we're in danger of overloading our sense of what humans are capable of,

da smo u opasnosti da preopteretimo naš osećaj za ono što su ljudi sposobni

by mixing in people who are too different.

mešanjem ljudi koji su previše različiti.

JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable

DžH: Da, ali mogu to da učinim prihvatljivijim

by saying it's not necessarily about race.

time što ću reći da se ne mora nužno raditi o rasi.

It's about culture.

Radi se o kulturi.

There's wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner,

Postoji sjajno delo politikološkinje po imenu Karen Stener koja pokazuje da,

who shows that when people have a sense

kada ljudi imaju utisak da smo svi udruženi, da smo svi isti,

that we are all united, we're all the same,

there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism.

postoji mnogo ljudi koji imaju predispoziciju ka autoritarizmu.

Those people aren't particularly racist

Ti ljudi nisu osobito rasisti

when they feel as through there's not a threat

kada ne osećaju da postoji pretnja

to our social and moral order.

našem društvenom i moralnom poretku.

Međutim, ako ih u eksperimentu navedete da pomisle da se razdvajamo,

But if you prime them experimentally

by thinking we're coming apart, people are getting more different,

da ljudi postaju drugačiji,

onda oni u većoj meri postaju rasistički, homofobno nastrojeni,

then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants.

žele da izbace devijantne.

So it's in part that you get an authoritarian reaction.

Stoga jednim delom dobijate autoritarnu reakciju.

The left, following through the Lennonist line --

Levica, sledeći Lenonovski put -

the John Lennon line --

put Džona Lenona -

does things that create an authoritarian reaction.

čini stvari koje proizvode autoritarnu reakciju.

We're certainly seeing that in America with the alt-right.

Zasigurno to vidimo u Americi sa alternativnom desnicom.

We saw it in Britain, we've seen it all over Europe.

To smo videli u Britaniji, videli smo to širom Evrope.

But the more positive part of that

Ipak, pozitivniji deo toga

is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right --

je to što smatram da su lokalisti, ili nacionalisti, zapravo u pravu -

that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity,

da, ako naglasite našu kulturološku sličnost,

then race doesn't actually matter very much.

onda rasa zapravo nije mnogo bitna.

So an assimilationist approach to immigration

Stoga asimilacioni pristup imigraciji

otklanja mnogo ovih problema.

removes a lot of these problems.

And if you value having a generous welfare state,

A ako vrednujete posedovanje darežljive države blagostanja,

you've got to emphasize that we're all the same.

morate naglasiti da smo svi mi isti.

CA: OK, so rising immigration and fears about that

KA: U redu, dakle, porast imigracije i strahovi u vezi sa tim

are one of the causes of the current divide.

su jedan od uzroka trenutne podeljenosti.

What are other causes?

Koji su drugi razlozi?

JH: The next principle of moral psychology

DžH: Sledeći princip moralne psihologije

is that intuitions come first, strategic reasoning second.

je da je intuicija na prvom mestu, a strateško rezonovanje na drugom.

You've probably heard the term "motivated reasoning"

Verovatno ste čuli za termin „motivisano rezonovanje“

or "confirmation bias."

ili „pristrasnost potvrđivanja“.

There's some really interesting work

Postoje veoma zanimljivi radovi

on how our high intelligence and our verbal abilities

o tome kako su naša visoka inteligencija i verbalne sposobnosti

might have evolved not to help us find out the truth,

možda evoluirale ne da bi nam pomogle da otkrijemo istinu,

već da bi nam pomogli da manipulišemo jedni drugima,

but to help us manipulate each other, defend our reputation ...

da branimo svoju reputaciju...

We're really, really good at justifying ourselves.

Zaista nam dobro ide opravdavanje samih sebe.

And when you bring group interests into account,

A kada uzmete u obzir grupne interese,

so it's not just me, it's my team versus your team,

tako da nisam samo ja u pitanju, već je moj tim protiv tvog tima,

whereas if you're evaluating evidence that your side is wrong,

a ako procenjuješ dokaze da tvoja strana greši,

we just can't accept that.

to prosto ne možemo da prihvatimo.

So this is why you can't win a political argument.

Zbog toga ne možete pobediti u političkoj raspravi.

If you're debating something,

Ako raspravljate o nečemu,

you can't persuade the person with reasons and evidence,

ne možete ubediti osobu razlozima i dokazima,

because that's not the way reasoning works.

jer rezonovanje ne funkcioniše tako.

So now, give us the internet, give us Google:

Dajte nam sad internet, dajte nam Gugl:

"I heard that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.

„Čuo sam da je Barak Obama rođen u Keniji.

Let me Google that -- oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"

Daj da to izguglam. O, bože! Deset miliona pogodaka! Vidi, istina je!“

CA: So this has come as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of people.

KA: To je proizašlo kao neprijatno iznenađenje za mnoge.

Social media has often been framed by techno-optimists

Društvene mreže su tehnološki optimisti često predstavljali

as this great connecting force that would bring people together.

kao veliku silu povezivanja koja će udružiti ljude.

And there have been some unexpected counter-effects to that.

A došlo je do neočekivanih kontraefekata.

JH: That's right.

DžH: Tako je.

Zato sam jako zaljubljen u stanovišta jin-jang

That's why I'm very enamored of yin-yang views

of human nature and left-right --

o ljudskoj prirodi i levice-desnice -

da je svaka strana u pravu u vezi sa određenim stvarima,

that each side is right about certain things,

but then it goes blind to other things.

ali zatim postaje slepa za druge stvari.

And so the left generally believes that human nature is good:

Tako levica obično veruje da je ljudska priroda dobra -

bring people together, knock down the walls and all will be well.

spojite ljude, srušite zidove i sve će biti u redu.

The right -- social conservatives, not libertarians --

Desnica - društveni konzervativci, ne libertarijanci -

social conservatives generally believe people can be greedy

društveni konzervativci generalno veruju da ljudi mogu biti pohlepni,

and sexual and selfish,

seksualni i sebični,

and we need regulation, and we need restrictions.

da su nam potrebni propisi i ograničenja.

So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,

Dakle, da, ako srušite sve zidove,

allow people to communicate all over the world,

dozvolite ljudima da komuniciraju širom sveta,

you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

dobijete mnogo pornografije i mnogo rasizma.

CA: So help us understand.

KA: Pomozi nam da razumemo.

These principles of human nature have been with us forever.

Ovi principi ljudske prirode su oduvek bili uz nas.

What's changed that's deepened this feeling of division?

Šta se promenilo što je produbilo ovaj osećaj podele?

JH: You have to see six to ten different threads all coming together.

DžH: Morate da vidite kako se šest do deset niti povezuju.

I'll just list a couple of them.

Navešću samo par njih.

So in America, one of the big -- actually, America and Europe --

U Americi, jedna od velikih - zapravo, u Americi i Evropi -

one of the biggest ones is World War II.

jedna od najvećih je Drugi svetski rat.

There's interesting research from Joe Henrich and others

Postoji zanimljivo istraživanje Džoa Henrika i ostalih koje kaže da,

that says if your country was at war,

ako je tvoja zemlja bila u ratu,

especially when you were young,

naročito kada si bio mlad,

then we test you 30 years later in a commons dilemma

a onda te testiramo 30 godina kasnije kroz problem tragedije zajedničkih dobara

or a prisoner's dilemma,

ili dilemu zatvorenika,

you're more cooperative.

naklonjeniji si saradnji.

Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

Usled naše plemenske prirode, ako si -

my parents were teenagers during World War II,

moji roditelji su bili tinejdžeri za vreme Drugog svetskog rata

and they would go out looking for scraps of aluminum

i išli bi da tragaju za komadićima aluminijuma

to help the war effort.

da bi pomogli u ratnim nastojanjima.

I mean, everybody pulled together.

Mislim, svi su sarađivali.

And so then these people go on,

Tako, kada ovi ljudi nastave dalje,

they rise up through business and government,

uzdignu se kroz posao i upravu

they take leadership positions.

i zauzimaju vodeće položaje.

They're really good at compromise and cooperation.

Veoma im dobro ide ostvarivanje kompromisa i saradnje.

They all retire by the '90s.

Svi se penzionišu do '90-ih godina.

So we're left with baby boomers by the end of the '90s.

Tako nam ostaju predstavnici bejbi bum generacije na kraju '90-ih.

And their youth was spent fighting each other within each country,

A njihova mladost je prošla u međusobnim borbama unutar svake zemlje,

in 1968 and afterwards.

1968. godine i nakon toga.

The loss of the World War II generation, "The Greatest Generation,"

Gubitak generacije Drugog svetskog rata, „najveće generacije“, ogroman je.

is huge.

So that's one.

To je jedna stvar.

Another, in America, is the purification of the two parties.

Druga stvar, u Americi je prečišćavanje dve stranke.

There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.

Ranije su bili liberalni republikanci i konzervativne demokrate.

So America had a mid-20th century that was really bipartisan.

U Americi je tako sredina 20. veka bila zapravo dvopartijska.

But because of a variety of factors that started things moving,

Međutim, zbog mnoštva faktora koji su pokrenuli stvari,

by the 90's, we had a purified liberal party and conservative party.

do '90-ih godina, imali smo pročišćenu liberalnu i konzervativnu stranku.

So now, the people in either party really are different,

Tako su sada ljudi u obe stranke zaista različiti

and we really don't want our children to marry them,

i zaista ne želimo da se naša deca venčaju sa njima,

što '60-ih godina nije bilo naročito važno.

which, in the '60s, didn't matter very much.

So, the purification of the parties.

Dakle, pročišćavanje stranaka.

Third is the internet and, as I said,

Treći je internet i, kao što sam rekao,

it's just the most amazing stimulant for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.

to je prosto najneverovatniji podsticaj za naknadno rezonovanje i demonizaciju.

CA: The tone of what's happening on the internet now is quite troubling.

KA: Ton onoga što se danas dešava na internetu prilično zabrinjava.

I just did a quick search on Twitter about the election

Upravo sam na brzinu obavio pretragu na Tviteru o izborima

and saw two tweets next to each other.

i video dva tvita, jedan pored drugog.

One, against a picture of racist graffiti:

Jedan je pored slike rasističkog grafita:

"This is disgusting!

„Ovo je odvratno!

Ugliness in this country, brought to us by #Trump."

Ružnoća u ovoj zemlji, priredio #Tramp.“

And then the next one is:

Sledeći je:

"Crooked Hillary dedication page. Disgusting!"

„Prevarantska Hilarina strana za posvete. Odvratno!“

So this idea of "disgust" is troubling to me.

Ova ideja „odvratnosti“ me zabrinjava.

Because you can have an argument or a disagreement about something,

Jer možete se raspravljati ili se ne slagati u vezi sa nečim

you can get angry at someone.

i možete se naljutiti na nekoga.

Disgust, I've heard you say, takes things to a much deeper level.

Gađenje, kako sam čuo od tebe, prenosi stvari na mnogo viši nivo.

JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

DžH: Tako je. Gađenje je drugačije.

Anger -- you know, I have kids.

Bes - znate, ja imam decu.

They fight 10 times a day,

Oni se svađaju deset puta dnevno

and they love each other 30 times a day.

i vole jedno drugog 30 puta dnevno.

You just go back and forth: you get angry, you're not angry;

Samo idete tamo-amo: ljuti ste, niste ljuti;

ljuti ste, niste ljuti.

you're angry, you're not angry.

But disgust is different.

Međutim, gađenje je drugačije.

Disgust paints the person as subhuman, monstrous,

Gađenje predstavlja drugu osobu kao nedovoljno ljudsku, monstruoznu,

deformed, morally deformed.

nakaznu, moralno nakaznu.

Disgust is like indelible ink.

Gađenje je poput neizbrisivog mastila.

There's research from John Gottman on marital therapy.

Postoji istraživanje Džona Gotmana o bračnoj terapiji.

If you look at the faces -- if one of the couple shows disgust or contempt,

Ako pogledate lica - ako jedan par pokazuje gađenje ili prezir,

that's a predictor that they're going to get divorced soon,

to je pokazatelj da će se uskoro razvesti,

whereas if they show anger, that doesn't predict anything,

dok ako pokazuju bes, to ništa ne previđa,

jer ako dobro izlazite na kraj sa besom, on je zapravo dobar.

because if you deal with anger well, it actually is good.

Dakle, ovi izbori su drugačiji.

So this election is different.

Donald Trump personally uses the word "disgust" a lot.

Lično Donald Tramp dosta koristi reč „odvratno“.

He's very germ-sensitive, so disgust does matter a lot --

On je veoma osetljiv na mikrobe, tako da je gađenje zaista vrlo bitno -

more for him, that's something unique to him --

dodatno za njega, to je nešto što je osobeno za njega -

but as we demonize each other more,

ali kako više demonizujemo jedni druge,

and again, through the Manichaean worldview,

a opet, kroz manihejsko gledište,

the idea that the world is a battle between good and evil

ideju da je svet bitka između dobra i zla

dok se ovo pojačavalo,

as this has been ramping up,

we're more likely not just to say they're wrong or I don't like them,

više smo skloni ne samo da kažemo da oni greše ili da nam se ne dopadaju,

već kažemo da su zli, satanistički,

but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

they're disgusting, they're revolting.

gadni, odvratni.

And then we want nothing to do with them.

I onda ne želimo ništa sa njima.

And that's why I think we're seeing it, for example, on campus now.

Zato mislim da to danas vidimo u studentskim domovima, na primer.

We're seeing more the urge to keep people off campus,

Vidimo veću potrebu da se ljudi udalje iz domova,

silence them, keep them away.

da se ućutkaju, drže podalje.

I'm afraid that this whole generation of young people,

Bojim se da će čitava ova generacija mladih,

ako njihovo upoznavanje sa politikom obuhvata mnogo gađenja,

if their introduction to politics involves a lot of disgust,

they're not going to want to be involved in politics as they get older.

neće hteti da se bave politikom kada postanu stariji.

CA: So how do we deal with that?

KA: Pa kako da se izborimo sa tim?

Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

Gađenje. Kako da umanjite gađenje?

JH: You can't do it with reasons.

DžH: To ne možete razumom.

I think ...

Ja mislim...

I studied disgust for many years, and I think about emotions a lot.

Izučavao sam gađenje godinama i mnogo razmišljam o emocijama.

And I think that the opposite of disgust is actually love.

Mislim da je suprotnost gađenju zapravo ljubav.

Love is all about, like ...

Ljubav se odnosi na...

Disgust is closing off, borders.

Gađenje je zatvaranje granica.

Love is about dissolving walls.

Ljubav predstavlja poništavanje zidova.

So personal relationships, I think,

Tako da su lični odnosi, po meni,

are probably the most powerful means we have.

verovatno najmoćnije sredstvo koje imamo.

You can be disgusted by a group of people,

Možete biti zgađeni nad grupom ljudi,

but then you meet a particular person

ali onda upoznate konkretnu osobu

and you genuinely discover that they're lovely.

i istinski saznate da je divna.

And then gradually that chips away or changes your category as well.

To zatim postepeno naruši ili promeni i vašu kategoriju.

The tragedy is, Americans used to be much more mixed up in the their towns

Tragedija je u tome što su Amerikanci

nekada bili mnogo više pomešani u svojim gradovima

by left-right or politics.

u pogledu levice-desnice ili politike.

And now that it's become this great moral divide,

A danas je to postala velika moralna podela;

there's a lot of evidence that we're moving to be near people

postoji mnogo dokaza da se selimo tako da budemo blizu ljudi

who are like us politically.

koji su slični nama politički.

Teže je naći nekog ko je na drugoj strani.

It's harder to find somebody who's on the other side.

So they're over there, they're far away.

Dakle, oni su tamo, daleko su.

It's harder to get to know them.

Teže je upoznati ih.

CA: What would you say to someone or say to Americans,

KA: Šta bi rekao nekome ili šta bi rekao Amerikancima,

people generally,

narodu uopšte,

about what we should understand about each other

o tome šta treba da shvatimo jedni o drugima

that might help us rethink for a minute

što bi nam moglo pomoći da na minut promislimo

this "disgust" instinct?

o ovom instinktu „gađenja“?

JH: Yes.

DžH: Da.

A really important thing to keep in mind --

Veoma bitna stvar koju treba imati na umu -

there's research by political scientist Alan Abramowitz,

postoji istraživanje politikologa Alana Abramovica

showing that American democracy is increasingly governed

koje pokazuje da američkom demokratijom u sve većoj meri upravlja

by what's called "negative partisanship."

ono što se naziva „negativno pristalištvo“.

That means you think, OK there's a candidate,

To znači da ti misliš da, u redu, postoji kandidat,

you like the candidate, you vote for the candidate.

dopada ti se kandidat, glasaš za kandidata.

But with the rise of negative advertising

Međutim, sa porastom negativnog reklamiranja,

and social media and all sorts of other trends,

društvenih medija i raznoraznih novih trendova,

increasingly, the way elections are done

izbori se sve više sprovode na taj način

is that each side tries to make the other side so horrible, so awful,

što svaka strana pokušava da učini drugu stranu toliko groznom, tako užasnom,

that you'll vote for my guy by default.

da se podrazumeva da ćeš glasati za mog čoveka.

And so as we more and more vote against the other side

Tako, dok sve više glasamo protiv druge strane

and not for our side,

a ne za svoju stranu,

you have to keep in mind that if people are on the left,

morate imati na umu da, ako su ljudi na levoj strani,

they think, "Well, I used to think that Republicans were bad,

oni misle: „Pa, pre sam mislio da su republikanci loši,

ali sada to Donald Tramp dokazuje.

but now Donald Trump proves it.

And now every Republican, I can paint with all the things

I sada svakog republikanca mogu da predstavim svime onim

that I think about Trump."

što mislim o Trampu.“

And that's not necessarily true.

A to nije nužno tačno.

They're generally not very happy with their candidate.

Oni generalno nisu baš zadovoljni svojim kandidatom.

This is the most negative partisanship election in American history.

Ovo su izbori sa najnegativnijim poborništvom u američkoj istoriji.

So you have to first separate your feelings about the candidate

Dakle, morate najpre da razdvojite svoja osećanja prema kandidatu

from your feelings about the people who are given a choice.

od svojih osećanja prema ljudima kojima je dat izbor.

And then you have to realize that,

A zatim treba da shvatite da,

because we all live in a separate moral world --

zato što svi mi živimo u zasebnom moralnom svetu -

the metaphor I use in the book is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"

metafora koju koristim u knjizi je da smo svi zarobljeni u „matriksu“,

or each moral community is a matrix, a consensual hallucination.

ili da je svaka moralna zajednica matriks, konsenzualna halucinacija.

And so if you're within the blue matrix,

Stoga, ako si u plavom matriksu,

everything's completely compelling that the other side --

sve sasvim ubedljivo ukazuje da je druga strana -

they're troglodytes, they're racists, they're the worst people in the world,

oni su pećinski ljudi, rasisti, najgori ljudi na svetu,

and you have all the facts to back that up.

i imaš sve činjenice koje to potvrđuju.

But somebody in the next house from yours

Međutim, neko u kući do vas

is living in a different moral matrix.

živi u drugačijem moralnom matriksu.

They live in a different video game,

On živi u drugačijoj video igrici

and they see a completely different set of facts.

i vidi potpuno drugačiji skup činjenica.

And each one sees different threats to the country.

I svako vidi drugačije pretnje za zemlju.

And what I've found from being in the middle

Ono što sam otkrio ostajući u sredini

and trying to understand both sides is: both sides are right.

i pokušavajući da razumem obe strane jeste da su obe strane u pravu.

There are a lot of threats to this country,

Postoji mnogo opasnosti po ovu zemlju

and each side is constitutionally incapable of seeing them all.

i svaka strana prirodno nije u stanju da ih sve sagleda.

CA: So, are you saying that we almost need a new type of empathy?

KA: Dakle, hoćeš da kažeš da nam je maltene potrebna nova vrsta empatije?

Empathy is traditionally framed as:

Empatija se obično formuliše kao:

"Oh, I feel your pain. I can put myself in your shoes."

„O, osećam tvoju bol. Mogu da se postavim na tvoje mesto.“

And we apply it to the poor, the needy, the suffering.

To primenjujemo na siromašnima, onima u nevolji, onima koji pate.

We don't usually apply it to people who we feel as other,

Obično to ne primenjujemo na ljudima koje doživljavamo kao suprotstavljene

or we're disgusted by.

ili koji nam se gade.

JH: No. That's right.

DžH: Ne. Tako je.

CA: What would it look like to build that type of empathy?

KA: Kako bi izgledalo izgraditi takvu vrstu empatije?

JH: Actually, I think ...

DžH: Zapravo, smatram...

Empathy is a very, very hot topic in psychology,

Empatija je vrlo aktuelna tema u psihologiji,

and it's a very popular word on the left in particular.

a to je i vrlo popularna reč, naročito na levoj strani.

Empathy is a good thing, and empathy for the preferred classes of victims.

Empatija je dobra stvar, i to empatija prema favorizovanim kategorijama žrtvi.

So it's important to empathize

Važno je saosećati sa grupama

with the groups that we on the left think are so important.

za koje mi sa leve strane mislimo da su vrlo bitne.

That's easy to do, because you get points for that.

To je lako jer dobijate poene za to.

But empathy really should get you points if you do it when it's hard to do.

Međutim, empatijom bi zapravo trebalo da dobijate poene kada je to teško.

And, I think ...

I mislim...

You know, we had a long 50-year period of dealing with our race problems

Znaš, imali smo dugi period od 50 godina suočavanja sa našim rasističkim problemima

and legal discrimination,

i pravnom diskriminacijom,

and that was our top priority for a long time

što je dugo bio naš glavni prioritet

and it still is important.

i to je još uvek važno.

But I think this year,

Mislim da će ove godine -

I'm hoping it will make people see

nadam se da će postići da ljudi uvide

that we have an existential threat on our hands.

da se nosimo sa egzistencijalnom pretnjom.

Our left-right divide, I believe,

Naša podela na levo i desno, verujem,

is by far the most important divide we face.

daleko je najvažnija podela sa kojom se suočavamo.

We still have issues about race and gender and LGBT,

Još imamo probleme vezane za rasu, rod i zajednicu LGBT,

but this is the urgent need of the next 50 years,

ali je ovo hitna potreba u narednih 50 godina,

and things aren't going to get better on their own.

a stvari se neće poboljšati same od sebe.

Biće nam potrebno da sprovedemo mnogo institucionalnih reformi

So we're going to need to do a lot of institutional reforms,

and we could talk about that,

i mogli bismo da govorimo o tome,

but that's like a whole long, wonky conversation.

ali to je čitav dugačak i nestabilan razgovor.

But I think it starts with people realizing that this is a turning point.

Mislim da počinje tako što ljudi shvate da je ovo prekretnica.

And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.

Da, potrebna nam je nova vrsta empatije.

We need to realize:

Treba da shvatimo

this is what our country needs,

da je ovo potrebno našoj zemlji,

and this is what you need if you don't want to --

a ovo je vama potrebno ako ne želite da -

Raise your hand if you want to spend the next four years

Podignite ruku ako želite da provedete naredne četiri godine

as angry and worried as you've been for the last year -- raise your hand.

ljuti i zabrinuti kao što ste bili protekle godine - podignite ruku.

Dakle, ako želite da pobegnete iz ovoga,

So if you want to escape from this,

read Buddha, read Jesus, read Marcus Aurelius.

čitajte Budu, Isusa, Marka Aurelija.

They have all kinds of great advice for how to drop the fear,

Oni imaju raznorazne sjajne savete o tome kako napustiti strah,

preformulisati stvari,

reframe things,

stop seeing other people as your enemy.

prestati videti druge ljude kao svoje neprijatelje.

There's a lot of guidance in ancient wisdom for this kind of empathy.

U drevnoj mudrosti postoji mnogo smernica za ovu vrstu empatije.

CA: Here's my last question:

KA: Evo mog poslednjeg pitanja.

Šta ljudi mogu učiniti na ličnom nivou da bi pomogli u isceljenju?

Personally, what can people do to help heal?

JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide to overcome your deepest prejudices.

DžH: Da, vrlo je teško prosto odlučiti da prevaziđete svoje najdublje predrasude.

And there's research showing

Postoji istraživanje koje pokazuje

that political prejudices are deeper and stronger than race prejudices

da su političke predrasude produbljenije i jače od rasnih predrasuda

in the country now.

u zemlji danas.

So I think you have to make an effort -- that's the main thing.

Mislim da morate da se potrudite - to je glavna stvar.

Make an effort to actually meet somebody.

Potruditi se da zaista upoznate nekoga.

Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,

Svako ima rođaka, zeta,

somebody who's on the other side.

nekoga ko je na drugoj strani.

So, after this election --

Dakle, nakon ovih izbora -

wait a week or two,

sačekajte nedelju ili dve,

because it's probably going to feel awful for one of you --

jer će verovatno biti grozno za jednog od vas -

ali sačekajte par nedelja i zatim mu se obratite

but wait a couple weeks, and then reach out and say you want to talk.

i kažite da hoćete da razgovarate.

And before you do it,

Pre nego što to uradite, pročitajte od Dejla Karnegija

read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" --

„Kako zadobiti prijatelje i uticati na ljude.“

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

I'm totally serious.

Skroz sam ozbiljan.

You'll learn techniques if you start by acknowledging,

Naučićete tehnike ako počnete uz priznanje,

tako što ćete reći:

if you start by saying,

"You know, we don't agree on a lot,

„Znaš, ne slažemo se oko mnogo toga,

ali jedno veoma cenim kod tebe, čika Bob“,

but one thing I really respect about you, Uncle Bob,"

ili „kod vas konzervativaca, a to je...“

or "... about you conservatives, is ... "

And you can find something.

A možete naći nešto.

Ako počnete sa malo uvažavanja, to deluje kao magija.

If you start with some appreciation, it's like magic.

This is one of the main things I've learned

Ovo je jedna od glavnih stvari koje sam naučio

that I take into my human relationships.

koju unosim u svoje odnose sa ljudima.

I still make lots of stupid mistakes,

I dalje činim mnogo glupih greški,

but I'm incredibly good at apologizing now,

ali sam sada neverovatno dobar u izvinjavanju

and at acknowledging what somebody was right about.

i priznavanju nečega u vezi sa čim je neko bio u pravu.

And if you do that,

Ako to radite,

then the conversation goes really well, and it's actually really fun.

onda razgovor protiče veoma dobro i zapravo je veoma zabavan.

CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating speaking with you.

KA: Džone, apsolutno je fascinantno razgovarati sa tobom.

It really does feel like the ground that we're on

Zaista se čini da je tlo na kome se nalazimo

is a ground populated by deep questions of morality and human nature.

nastanjeno dubokim pitanjima o moralnosti i ljudskoj prirodi.

Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.

Tvoja mudrost je od izuzetnog značaja.

Thank you so much for sharing this time with us.

Mnogo ti hvala što si podelio ovo vreme sa nama.

JH: Thanks, Chris.

DžH: Hvala, Kris.

DžH: Hvala svima.

JH: Thanks, everyone.

(Aplauz)

(Applause)