Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt

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Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

Chris Anderson: Dakle, Jon, ovo je zastrašujuće.

Jonathan Haidt: Jeste.

Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

CA: It feels like the world is in a place

CA: Čini se kao da je svijet na mjestu

koje već dugo nismo vidjeli.

that we haven't seen for a long time.

People don't just disagree in the way that we're familiar with,

Ljudi ne samo da se ne slažu na način koji nam je poznat,

on the left-right political divide.

na političkoj razdjelnici između lijevog i desnog.

There are much deeper differences afoot.

U pitanju su mnogo dublja razilaženja.

What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?

Što se to uopće zbiva i kako smo dovde stigli?

JH: To je drugačije.

JH: This is different.

There's a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.

Osjećaj je mnogo više apokaliptičan.

Survey research by Pew Research shows

Ankete Pew Research centra pokazuju

that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just --

da je stupanj osjećaja da druga strana nije samo --

we don't just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,

ne samo da su nam odbojni; jako su nam odbojni,

and we think that they are a threat to the nation.

i mislimo da predstavljaju prijetnju za naciju.

Those numbers have been going up and up,

Ti brojevi stalno rastu

and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.

i dostigli su preko 50 posto sada na obje strane.

People are scared,

Ljudi su uplašeni

because it feels like this is different than before; it's much more intense.

jer to izgleda kao da je drugačije nego prije; mnogo je intenzivnije.

Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,

Kada god pogledam bilo koju vrstu društvene zagonetke

I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,

uvijek primjenjujem tri osnovna principa moralne psihologije

and I think they'll help us here.

i mislim da će nam i ovdje pomoći.

So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind

Prva stvar koju uvijek treba imati na umu

when you're thinking about politics

kada razmišljate o politici

is that we're tribal.

je da smo mi plemenska vrsta.

Evoluirali smo kao pripadnici plemena.

We evolved for tribalism.

One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature

Jedan od najjednostavnijih i najvećih uvida u ljudsku društvenu prirodu

is the Bedouin proverb:

je beduinska poslovica:

"Me against my brother;

"Ja protiv mog brata;

me and my brother against our cousin;

ja i moj brat protiv našeg bratića;

me and my brother and cousins against the stranger."

ja i moj brat i bratići protiv stranca."

And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies

Ta plemenska pripadnost nam je omogućila stvaranje velikih zajednica

and to come together in order to compete with others.

i udruživanje radi natjecanja s drugima.

That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,

To nas je izvelo iz džungle i iz malih grupa,

but it means that we have eternal conflict.

no to znači da imamo vječni sukob.

The question you have to look at is:

Pitanje koje treba razmotriti je:

What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,

Koji aspekti našeg društva doprinose ogorčenosti,

and what are calming them down?

a koji ga smiruju?

CA: That's a very dark proverb.

CA: To je vrlo mračna poslovica.

You're saying that that's actually baked into most people's mental wiring

Ti kažeš da je to zapravo ugrađeno u mentalni sklop većine ljudi

at some level?

na nekoj razini?

JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.

JH: Apsolutno. To je upravo osnovni aspekt ljudske društvene spoznaje.

No mi također možemo vrlo mirno živjeti zajedno

But we can also live together really peacefully,

and we've invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.

i izumili smo razne vrste zabavnih načina za igranje rata.

I mean, sports, politics --

Mislim sportove, politiku --

these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature

to su sve načini na koje izražavamo tu plemensku prirodu

without actually hurting anyone.

bez da itko bude povrijeđen.

We're also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.

Mi smo također dobri u trgovini i istraživanju i upoznavanju novih ljudi.

Našu plemensku pripadnost treba promatrati kao nešto što raste ili pada --

So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down --

it's not like we're doomed to always be fighting each other,

nije da smo osuđeni da se stalno međusobno borimo,

but we'll never have world peace.

ali nikada nećemo imati svjetski mir.

CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.

CA: Veličina tog plemena može se smanjivati ili povećavati.

JH: Right.

JH: Točno.

CA: The size of what we consider "us"

CA: Veličina onoga što zovemo "mi"

and what we consider "other" or "them"

i što zovemo "drugi" ili "oni"

can change.

može se mijenjati.

And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.

I neki ljudi su vjerovali da taj proces može trajati beskonačno.

JH: That's right.

JH: To je istina.

CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.

CA: I mi smo stvarno širili značenje plemena neko vrijeme.

JH: So this is, I think,

JH: Dakle to je, mislim,

where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction.

gdje dolazimo do vjerojatno nove lijevo-desne distinkcije.

I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it,

Mislim, lijevo-desno kako smo to svi naslijedili,

comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,

proizlazi iz distinkcije između rada nasuprot kapitalu,

and the working class, and Marx.

i radničke klase i Marxa.

But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly,

No, mislim da ono što danas vidimo, sve više,

is a divide in all the Western democracies

je podjela u svim zapadnim demokracijama

between the people who want to stop at nation,

između ljudi koji žele stati na naciji,

the people who are more parochial --

ljudi koji su više uskogrudni --

and I don't mean that in a bad way --

i to ne mislim u lošem smislu --

people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,

ljudi koji imaju puno jači osjećaj ukorijenjenosti,

they care about their town, their community and their nation.

njima je stalo do njihovog grada, zajednice i nacije.

And then those who are anti-parochial and who --

I onda oni koji su manje skučeni i koji --

whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

kad god sam zbunjen sjetim se pjesme Johna Lennona "Imagine"

"Zamisli da nema zemalja, da se nema za što ubijati ili umrijeti."

"Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for."

To su ljudi koji žele više globalnog upravljanja,

And so these are the people who want more global governance,

they don't like nation states, they don't like borders.

oni ne vole nacionalne države, oni ne vole granice.

You see this all over Europe as well.

To se također vidi po cijeloj Europi.

There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare --

Ima jedan velikan metafora -- ustvari ime mu je Shakespeare --

koji je prije deset godina pisao u Britaniji.

writing ten years ago in Britain.

He had a metaphor:

"Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"

Imao je metaforu:

"Jesmo li mi dizači pokretnog mosta ili spuštači pokretnog mosta?"

And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.

A Britanija je podijeljena 52-48 po tom pitanju

And America is divided on that point, too.

I Amerika je također podijeljena po tom pitanju.

CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles

CA: I tako, oni od nas koji su odrastali s Beatlesima

and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world --

i tom vrstom hipi filozofije sanjanja o povezanijem svijetu --

it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?"

to se činilo tako idealistički i "kako bi itko mogao o tome misliti loše?"

And what you're saying is that, actually,

A ti kažeš da ustvari

millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly;

milijuni ljudi danas osjećaju da to nije samo smiješno;

it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.

to je ustvari opasno i krivo i oni se toga boje.

JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,

JH: Ja mislim da je veliki problem, pogotovo u Europi, ali i ovdje,

is the issue of immigration.

problem imigracije.

And I think this is where we have to look very carefully

I mislim da tu moramo vrlo pažljivo razmotriti

at the social science about diversity and immigration.

društvenu znanost o različitosti i imigraciji.

Once something becomes politicized,

Jednom kada nešto postane ispolitizirano,

once it becomes something that the left loves and the right --

kada to postane nešto što lijevi vole, a desni --

then even the social scientists can't think straight about it.

tada ni društveni znanstvenici ne mogu o tome hladno razmišljati.

Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

Različitost je dobra na mnogo načina.

It clearly creates more innovation.

Ona očigledno stvara više inovacija.

The American economy has grown enormously from it.

Američka ekonomija je enormno porasla zahvaljujući tome.

Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.

Različitost i imigracija čine mnogo dobrih stvari.

But what the globalists, I think, don't see,

No, ono što globalisti, mislim, ne vide,

what they don't want to see,

što ne žele vidjeti,

is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.

je da etnička različitost umanjuje društveni kapital i povjerenje.

There's a very important study by Robert Putnam,

Ima jedna vrlo važna studija Roberta Putnama,

the author of "Bowling Alone,"

autora knjige "Kuglati sam",

looking at social capital databases.

koja razmatra baze podataka o društvenom kapitalu.

And basically, the more people feel that they are the same,

Načelno, što se više ljudi osjećaju jednakima

the more they trust each other,

to više vjeruju jedan drugome,

the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state.

tim prije mogu imati redistributivnu socijalnu državu.

Skandinavske zemlje su tako prekrasne

Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

jer su po svom nasljeđu malene, homogene zemlje.

because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries.

And that leads to a progressive welfare state,

A to vodi progresivnoj socijalnoj državi,

skupu progresivnih, lijevo orjentiranih vrijednosti, koji kaže,

a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says,

"Drawbridge down! The world is a great place.

"Spuštajte pomični most! Svijet je sjajno mjesto.

People in Syria are suffering -- we must welcome them in."

Ljudi u Siriji pate -- moramo ih srdačno primiti."

And it's a beautiful thing.

I to je prekrasna stvar.

But if, and I was in Sweden this summer,

Ali ako, a bio sam u Švedskoj ovog ljeta,

if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct

ako je diskurs u Švedskoj potpuno politički korektan

and they can't talk about the downsides,

i oni ne mogu govoriti o negativnim stranama,

you end up bringing a lot of people in.

završit ćete tako da dovedete mnogo ljudi.

That's going to cut social capital,

To će srezati društveni kapital,

it makes it hard to have a welfare state

to otežava opstanak socijalne države

and they might end up, as we have in America,

i oni bi mogli završiti, poput nas u Americi,

with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society.

s rasno podijeljenim, vidljivo rasno podijeljenim, društvom.

So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about.

O svemu ovome vrlo je neugodno govoriti.

But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too,

No mislim da je to stvar, posebno u Europi i kod nas također,

we need to be looking at.

koju moramo razmatrati.

CA: You're saying that people of reason,

CA: Ti kažeš da razumni ljudi,

people who would consider themselves not racists,

ljudi koji sebe ne smatraju rasistima,

but moral, upstanding people,

već moralnim, uglednim ljudima,

have a rationale that says humans are just too different;

imaju obrazloženje da su ljudska bića ipak suviše različita;

that we're in danger of overloading our sense of what humans are capable of,

da smo u opasnosti da precijenimo ljudske sposobnosti,

by mixing in people who are too different.

miješajući ljude koji su suviše različiti.

JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable

JH: Da, ali ovo mogu učiniti puno prihvatljivijim

by saying it's not necessarily about race.

ako kažem da se ne radi nužno o rasi.

It's about culture.

Radi se o kulturi.

There's wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner,

Ima jedan prekrasan rad političke znanstvenice Karen Stenner,

who shows that when people have a sense

koja pokazuje da kada ljudi imaju osjećaj

that we are all united, we're all the same,

da smo svi ujedinjeni, svi jednaki,

there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism.

tada ima mnogo ljudi koji su skloni autoritarizmu.

Those people aren't particularly racist

Ti ljudi nisu osobito rasisti

when they feel as through there's not a threat

kada osjećaju da nema prijetnje

to our social and moral order.

našem društvenom i moralnom poretku.

But if you prime them experimentally

No, ako ih pokusno potaknete

by thinking we're coming apart, people are getting more different,

razmišljanjem da se raspadamo, da su ljudi sve više različiti,

then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants.

tada postaju veći rasisti, homofobi, žele izbaciti devijantne.

So it's in part that you get an authoritarian reaction.

Tako dijelom dobivate autoritarnu reakciju.

The left, following through the Lennonist line --

Ljevica, slijedeći Lennonovu liniju --

the John Lennon line --

liniju Johna Lennona --

does things that create an authoritarian reaction.

čini stvari koje stvaraju autoritarnu reakciju.

We're certainly seeing that in America with the alt-right.

To nesumnjivo vidimo u Americi s alternativnom desnicom.

We saw it in Britain, we've seen it all over Europe.

To smo vidjeli u Britanij, vidimo to širom Europe.

But the more positive part of that

No, pozitivniji dio toga

is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right --

je da mislim da su lokalisti ili nacionalisti, ustvari u pravu --

that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity,

da ako naglašavate našu kulturalnu sličnost,

then race doesn't actually matter very much.

tada rasa ustvari nije toliko važna.

So an assimilationist approach to immigration

Tako asimilacionistički pristup imigraciji

removes a lot of these problems.

otklanja mnogo ovih problema.

And if you value having a generous welfare state,

A ako vam je važno imati darežljivu socijalnu državu,

you've got to emphasize that we're all the same.

morate naglašavati da smo svi jednaki.

CA: OK, so rising immigration and fears about that

CA: OK, dakle rastuća imigracija i strahovi oko toga

are one of the causes of the current divide.

su jedan od uzroka sadašnje podjele.

What are other causes?

Koji su drugi uzroci?

JH: The next principle of moral psychology

JH: Sljedeći princip moralne psihologije

is that intuitions come first, strategic reasoning second.

je da su intuicije na prvom mjestu, strateško rasuđivanje na drugom.

You've probably heard the term "motivated reasoning"

Vjerojatno ste čuli za izraz "motivirano rasuđivanje"

or "confirmation bias."

ili "potvrda pristranosti".

There's some really interesting work

Postoje neki doista zanimljivi radovi

on how our high intelligence and our verbal abilities

o tome kako su naša inteligencija i naše verbalne sposobnosti

might have evolved not to help us find out the truth,

možda evoluirali, ne da nam pomognu otkriti istinu,

već da nam pomognu da manipuliramo jedni drugima,

but to help us manipulate each other, defend our reputation ...

obranimo svoju reputaciju ...

Mi smo zaista dobri u opravdavanju sebe samih.

We're really, really good at justifying ourselves.

And when you bring group interests into account,

A kada uzmete u obzir interese grupe,

so it's not just me, it's my team versus your team,

dakle, nisam samo ja, već moj tim nasuprot tvom timu,

whereas if you're evaluating evidence that your side is wrong,

međutim, ako procjenjujete dokaze da je vaša strana u krivu,

we just can't accept that.

mi to jednostavno ne možemo prihvatiti.

So this is why you can't win a political argument.

To je razlog da ne možete dobiti političku prepirku.

If you're debating something,

Ako o nečem raspravljate,

you can't persuade the person with reasons and evidence,

ne možete osobu uvjeriti razumom i dokazima

because that's not the way reasoning works.

jer to nije način na koji rasuđivanje funkcionira.

So now, give us the internet, give us Google:

Uzmimo sada Internet, uzmimo Google:

"I heard that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.

"Čuo sam da je Barack Obama rođen u Keniji.

Let me Google that -- oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"

Hajde da pogledam u Google -- oh Bože! 10 milijuna rezultata! Vidi, istina je!"

CA: So this has come as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of people.

CA: Dakle, ovo je neugodno iznenađenje za mnogo ljudi.

Social media has often been framed by techno-optimists

Tehno-optimisti često društvene medije opisuju kao

as this great connecting force that would bring people together.

golemu povezujuću silu koja će ujediniti ljude.

And there have been some unexpected counter-effects to that.

No, to je imalo neke neočekivane kontra efekte.

JH: That's right.

JH: To je točno.

Zato sam ja očaran yin-yang pogledima

That's why I'm very enamored of yin-yang views

of human nature and left-right --

na ljudsku prirodu i lijevo-desno --

that each side is right about certain things,

da je svaka strana u pravu o određenim stvarima,

but then it goes blind to other things.

a slijepa je za druge stvari.

And so the left generally believes that human nature is good:

Ljevica općenito vjeruje da je ljudska priroda dobra:

bring people together, knock down the walls and all will be well.

ujedinimo ljude, srušimo zidove i svima će nam biti dobro.

The right -- social conservatives, not libertarians --

Desnica -- socijalni konzervativci, ne libertarijanci --

social conservatives generally believe people can be greedy

socijalni konzervativci općenito vjeruju da ljudi mogu biti pohlepni

and sexual and selfish,

i seksualni i sebični,

and we need regulation, and we need restrictions.

i trebamo regulaciju, i trebamo restrikcije.

So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,

Zato, da, ako srušite sve zidove,

allow people to communicate all over the world,

dozvolite ljudima da komuniciraju širom svijeta,

you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

dobivate puno pornografije i puno rasizma.

CA: So help us understand.

CA: Pomozi nam onda da razumijemo.

These principles of human nature have been with us forever.

Ovi principi ljudske prirode oduvijek su s nama.

What's changed that's deepened this feeling of division?

Što se to promijenilo što je produbilo taj osjećaj podijeljenosti?

JH: You have to see six to ten different threads all coming together.

JH: Morate vidjeti šest do deset različitih niti koje se sve spajaju.

I'll just list a couple of them.

Nabrojat ću tek nekoliko njih.

So in America, one of the big -- actually, America and Europe --

Dakle, u Americi, jedna od velikih -- ustvari, Americi i Europi --

one of the biggest ones is World War II.

jedna od najvećih je Drugi svjetski rat.

There's interesting research from Joe Henrich and others

Postoji zanimljivo istraživanje Joea Henricha i drugih

that says if your country was at war,

koje kaže da ako je vaša zemlja bila u ratu,

especially when you were young,

naročito ako ste tada bili mladi,

then we test you 30 years later in a commons dilemma

i testiramo vas 30 godina poslije o dilemi općeg doba

or a prisoner's dilemma,

ili zatvorenikovoj dilemi,

you're more cooperative.

bit ćete kooperativniji.

Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

Zbog naše plemenske prirode, ako ste --

my parents were teenagers during World War II,

moji roditelji su bili tinejdžeri u vrijeme Drugog svjetskog rata,

and they would go out looking for scraps of aluminum

i naokolo bi skupljali ostatke aluminija

to help the war effort.

pridonoseći ratnim naporima.

I mean, everybody pulled together.

Mislim, svi su se međusobno pomagali.

And so then these people go on,

I onda ti ljudi idu dalje,

they rise up through business and government,

uzdižu se kroz poslovni svijet i vladu

they take leadership positions.

zauzimaju vodeće pozicije.

They're really good at compromise and cooperation.

Oni su zaista dobri u postizanju kompromisa i suradnji.

They all retire by the '90s.

Svi su oni otišli u mirovinu do kraja 90-ih.

So we're left with baby boomers by the end of the '90s.

Tako smo ostali s baby boomerima krajem 90-ih.

And their youth was spent fighting each other within each country,

A njihova mladost je prošla u međusobnim sukobima

unutar vlastitih zemalja.

in 1968 and afterwards.

1968. i kasnije.

The loss of the World War II generation, "The Greatest Generation,"

Gubitak generacije 2. svjetskog rata, "Najveće generacije",

is huge.

ogroman je.

So that's one.

To je jedna nit.

Another, in America, is the purification of the two parties.

Druga nit je purifikacija dviju stranaka u Americi

There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.

Nekada je bilo liberalnih Republikanaca i konzervativnih Demokrata.

So America had a mid-20th century that was really bipartisan.

Tako je sredinom 20. stoljeća Amerika imala pravo dvostranačje.

But because of a variety of factors that started things moving,

No, zbog raznih faktora koji su počeli pokretati stvari,

by the 90's, we had a purified liberal party and conservative party.

do 90-ih imali smo očišćenu liberalnu stranku i konzervativnu stranku.

So now, the people in either party really are different,

Tako su sada ljudi u svakoj stranci stvarno drugačiji,

and we really don't want our children to marry them,

i mi stvarno ne želimo da se naša djeca s njima žene,

which, in the '60s, didn't matter very much.

što u 60-ima nije bilo jako važno.

So, the purification of the parties.

Dakle, purifikacija stranaka.

Third is the internet and, as I said,

Treća nit je Internet i, kao što sam rekao,

it's just the most amazing stimulant for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.

to je najnevjerojatniji stimulans za post-hoc rasuđivanje i demonizaciju.

CA: The tone of what's happening on the internet now is quite troubling.

CA: Prizvuk onoga što se sada događa na Internetu prilično je zabrinjavajući.

I just did a quick search on Twitter about the election

Upravo sam napravio brzu pretragu na Twitteru o izborima

and saw two tweets next to each other.

i vidio dva tweeta jedan do drugog.

One, against a picture of racist graffiti:

Jedan, ispod slike rasističkog grafita:

"This is disgusting!

"To je odvratno!

Ugliness in this country, brought to us by #Trump."

Rugoba u ovoj zemlji koju nam je donio #Trump."

And then the next one is:

A sljedeći je:

"Crooked Hillary dedication page. Disgusting!"

"Posveta pokvarenoj Hillary. Odvratno!"

So this idea of "disgust" is troubling to me.

Mene muči ova ideja "odvratnosti".

Because you can have an argument or a disagreement about something,

Jer možete imati prepirku ili neslaganje o nečemu,

you can get angry at someone.

možete se na nekoga naljutiti.

Disgust, I've heard you say, takes things to a much deeper level.

Odvratnost, kako sam vas čuo, vodi stvari na puno dublju razinu.

JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

JH: To je točno. Odvratnost je drukčija.

Anger -- you know, I have kids.

Ljutnja -- znate, ja imam djecu.

They fight 10 times a day,

Oni se potuku 10 puta dnevno,

and they love each other 30 times a day.

a vole jedno drugo 30 puta dnevno.

You just go back and forth: you get angry, you're not angry;

Samo idete simo tamo: naljutite se, odljutite se;

naljutite se, odljutite se.

you're angry, you're not angry.

But disgust is different.

Ali odvratnost je drukčija.

Disgust paints the person as subhuman, monstrous,

Odvratnost oslikava osobu kao nižu vrstu, čudovišnu,

deformed, morally deformed.

deformiranu, moralno deformiranu.

Disgust is like indelible ink.

Odvratnost je kao neizbrisiva tinta.

There's research from John Gottman on marital therapy.

Postoji istraživanje Johna Gottmana o bračnoj terapiji.

If you look at the faces -- if one of the couple shows disgust or contempt,

Ako pogledate lica -- ako jedan član para pokazuje odvratnost ili prezir,

that's a predictor that they're going to get divorced soon,

to je prediktor da će se uskoro rastati,

whereas if they show anger, that doesn't predict anything,

dok ako pokazuju ljutnju, to ne predskazuje ništa,

because if you deal with anger well, it actually is good.

jer ako dobro postupate s ljutnjom ona je ustvari dobra.

Ovi izbori su drugačiji.

So this election is different.

Donald Trump personally uses the word "disgust" a lot.

Donald Trump osobno puno koristi riječ "odvratnost".

He's very germ-sensitive, so disgust does matter a lot --

On je vrlo osjetljiv na bacile pa je odvratnost jako važna --

more for him, that's something unique to him --

više za njega, to je nešto specifično za njega --

but as we demonize each other more,

no dok sve više demoniziramo jedni druge,

and again, through the Manichaean worldview,

i ponovo, po svjetonazoru maniheizma,

the idea that the world is a battle between good and evil

ideja da je svijet borba između dobra i zla

as this has been ramping up,

dok ovo sve više bjesni,

we're more likely not just to say they're wrong or I don't like them,

vjerojatnije je da nećemo samo reći oni su u krivu ili ne sviđaju mi se,

but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

već kažemo da su zli, sotonski,

they're disgusting, they're revolting.

oni su odvratni, oni su gnusni.

And then we want nothing to do with them.

A onda ne želimo ništa imati s njima.

And that's why I think we're seeing it, for example, on campus now.

I zato to danas vidimo, na primjer, u kampusu.

We're seeing more the urge to keep people off campus,

Vidimo sve veći poriv da se ljudi drže dalje od kampusa,

silence them, keep them away.

da se ušutkaju, da ih se drži podalje.

I'm afraid that this whole generation of young people,

Bojim se da cijela ova generacija mladih ljudi,

if their introduction to politics involves a lot of disgust,

ako njihovo uvođenje u politiku uključuje mnogo odvratnosti,

they're not going to want to be involved in politics as they get older.

oni se neće željeti uključivati u politiku kada odrastu.

CA: So how do we deal with that?

CA: Pa kako da se nosimo s tim?

Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

Odvratnost. Kako ublažiti odvratnost?

JH: You can't do it with reasons.

JH: To ne možete argumentima.

I think ...

Mislim ...

Mnogo godina sam proučavao odvratnost,

I studied disgust for many years, and I think about emotions a lot.

i mnogo razmišljam o emocijama.

And I think that the opposite of disgust is actually love.

I ja mislim da je suprotnost odvratnosti ustvari ljubav.

Love is all about, like ...

U ljubavi se radi o, poput ...

Disgust is closing off, borders.

Odvratnost je zatvaranje, granica.

Love is about dissolving walls.

Ljubav je rastvaranje zidova.

Zato su osobni odnosi, mislim,

So personal relationships, I think,

are probably the most powerful means we have.

vjerojatno najsnažnije oružje koje imamo.

You can be disgusted by a group of people,

Može vam biti odvratna grupa ljudi,

but then you meet a particular person

a onda upoznate pojedinu osobu

and you genuinely discover that they're lovely.

i istinski otkrijete da su dragi.

And then gradually that chips away or changes your category as well.

I onda to postepeno nagriza ili mijenja i vašu kategoriju.

The tragedy is, Americans used to be much more mixed up in the their towns

Tragedija je da su Amerikanci bili mnogo više izmješani u gradovima

by left-right or politics.

po lijevo- desnom usmjerenju ili politici.

And now that it's become this great moral divide,

A sada kako je to postala velika moralna razdjelnica,

there's a lot of evidence that we're moving to be near people

ima puno dokaza da se premještamo bliže ljudima

who are like us politically.

koji su politički slični nama.

It's harder to find somebody who's on the other side.

Teže je pronaći nekoga tko je na drugoj strani.

So they're over there, they're far away.

Oni su tamo preko, oni su daleko.

It's harder to get to know them.

Teže ih je upoznati.

CA: What would you say to someone or say to Americans,

CA: Što biste rekli nekome, recimo Amerikancima,

people generally,

ljudima općenito,

about what we should understand about each other

o tome što bismo trebali razumjeti jedni o drugima

that might help us rethink for a minute

što bi nam pomoglo da promislimo minutu

this "disgust" instinct?

o tom instinktu "odvratnosti"?

JH: Yes.

JH: Da.

A really important thing to keep in mind --

Uistinu važna stvar koju treba imati na umu --

there's research by political scientist Alan Abramowitz,

postoji istraživanje političkog znanstvenika Alana Abramowitza

showing that American democracy is increasingly governed

koje pokazuje da američkom demokracijom sve više upravlja

by what's called "negative partisanship."

nešto što se naziva "negativno poborništvo".

That means you think, OK there's a candidate,

To znači, vi mislite, u redu, postoji kandidat,

you like the candidate, you vote for the candidate.

sviđa vam se kandidat, glasate za kandidata.

But with the rise of negative advertising

No, s porastom negativnog oglašavanja

and social media and all sorts of other trends,

i društvenih medija i svih vrsta drugih trendova,

increasingly, the way elections are done

sve više način na koji se provode izbori

is that each side tries to make the other side so horrible, so awful,

je takav da svaka strana pokušava drugu stranu učiniti

tako užasnom, tako groznom

that you'll vote for my guy by default.

da ćete glasati za mog momka po defaultu.

And so as we more and more vote against the other side

I tako, dok mi sve više i više glasamo protiv druge strane,

and not for our side,

a ne za našu stranu,

you have to keep in mind that if people are on the left,

morate imati na umu da, ako su ljudi na ljevici,

they think, "Well, I used to think that Republicans were bad,

oni misle, "Prije sam mislio da su republikanci loši,

a sada to Donald Trump dokazuje.

but now Donald Trump proves it.

And now every Republican, I can paint with all the things

I sada svakog republikanca mogu obojati svim stvarima

that I think about Trump."

koje mislim o Trumpu."

And that's not necessarily true.

A to nije nužno istina.

They're generally not very happy with their candidate.

Oni općenito nisu jako zadovoljni svojim kandidatom.

This is the most negative partisanship election in American history.

To su najnegativniji pobornički izbori u američkoj povijesti.

So you have to first separate your feelings about the candidate

Dakle, prvo morate odvojiti svoje osjećaje o kandidatu

from your feelings about the people who are given a choice.

od svojih osjećaja o ljudima kojima je dan izbor.

And then you have to realize that,

I onda morate shvatiti da,

budući da svi mi živimo u odvojenom moralnom svijetu --

because we all live in a separate moral world --

the metaphor I use in the book is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"

u knjizi koristim metaforu da smo svi zarobljeni u "Matrici",

or each moral community is a matrix, a consensual hallucination.

ili da je svaka moralna zajednica matrica, konsenzualna halucinacija.

And so if you're within the blue matrix,

Pa tako, ako ste vi u plavoj matrici,

everything's completely compelling that the other side --

sve vas neodoljivo navodi da je druga strana --

they're troglodytes, they're racists, they're the worst people in the world,

oni su trogloditi, oni su rasisti, oni su najgori ljudi na svijetu,

and you have all the facts to back that up.

a vi imate sve činjenice koje to podupiru.

But somebody in the next house from yours

No, netko u kući do vaše

is living in a different moral matrix.

živi u drugačijoj moralnoj matrici.

They live in a different video game,

Oni žive u drugačijoj video igri,

and they see a completely different set of facts.

i vide potpuno drugačiji skup činjenica.

And each one sees different threats to the country.

I svatko vidi drugačije prijetnje po zemlju.

And what I've found from being in the middle

A ono što sam ja ustanovio, kao osoba u sredini

and trying to understand both sides is: both sides are right.

koja pokušava razumijeti obje strane, jest: obje strane su u pravu.

There are a lot of threats to this country,

Mnogo je prijetnji ovoj zemlji,

and each side is constitutionally incapable of seeing them all.

a svaka je strana konstitucionalno nesposobna vidjeti sve njih.

CA: So, are you saying that we almost need a new type of empathy?

CA: Želite li reći da gotovo pa trebamo novu vrstu empatije?

Empathy is traditionally framed as:

Empatija se tradicionalno opisuje kao:

"Oh, I feel your pain. I can put myself in your shoes."

"Oh, osjećam tvoju bol. Mogu se staviti u tvoju kožu."

And we apply it to the poor, the needy, the suffering.

I to primjenjujemo na siromašne, potrebite, one koji pate.

We don't usually apply it to people who we feel as other,

Obično to ne primjenjujemo na ljude koje osjećamo kao druge

or we're disgusted by.

ili koji su nam odvratni.

JH: No. That's right.

JH: Ne. To je točno.

CA: What would it look like to build that type of empathy?

CA: Kako bi to izgledalo da izgradimo tu vrstu empatije?

JH: Ustvari, mislim ...

JH: Actually, I think ...

Empatija je vrlo, vrlo aktualna tema u psihologiji,

Empathy is a very, very hot topic in psychology,

and it's a very popular word on the left in particular.

i ta je riječ vrlo popularna, naročito na ljevici.

Empatija je dobra stvar

Empathy is a good thing, and empathy for the preferred classes of victims.

i empatija za preferencijalne klase žrtava.

So it's important to empathize

Dakle, važno je osjećati empatiju

with the groups that we on the left think are so important.

za grupe koje mi na ljevici smatramo tako važnima.

That's easy to do, because you get points for that.

To je lako jer za to dobivate bodove.

But empathy really should get you points if you do it when it's hard to do.

No empatija bi vam zapravo trebala donositi bodove

ako je osjećate kada ju je teško osjećati.

And, I think ...

I ja mislim ...

You know, we had a long 50-year period of dealing with our race problems

Znate, mi smo imali dugo 50-godišnje razdoblje

suočavanja s rasnim problemima i pravnom diskriminacijom

and legal discrimination,

and that was our top priority for a long time

i to je bio naš vrhunski prioritet dugo vremena

and it still is important.

i još uvijek je važan.

But I think this year,

No, mislim da ove godine,

I'm hoping it will make people see

nadam se da će ovo ljude primorati da uvide

that we have an existential threat on our hands.

da imamo egistencijalnu prijetnju na vratu.

Our left-right divide, I believe,

Vjerujem da je naša lijevo-desna podjela

is by far the most important divide we face.

daleko najvažnija podjela s kojom se suočavamo.

We still have issues about race and gender and LGBT,

Još uvijek imamo probleme u vezi rase, spola i LGBT,

but this is the urgent need of the next 50 years,

no ovo je hitna nužda zadnjih 50 godina,

and things aren't going to get better on their own.

i stvari se neće popraviti same od sebe.

Zato ćemo morati provesti mnogo ustavnih reformi

So we're going to need to do a lot of institutional reforms,

and we could talk about that,

i o tome možemo govoriti,

no to je cijeli jedan dugačak i zapetljan razgovor.

but that's like a whole long, wonky conversation.

But I think it starts with people realizing that this is a turning point.

No, ja mislim da to započinje kada ljudi shvate da je ovo prekretnica.

And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.

I da, treba nam nova vrsta empatije.

We need to realize:

Mi moramo shvatiti:

this is what our country needs,

to je ono što naša zemlja treba

and this is what you need if you don't want to --

i to je ono što vi trebate ako ne želite --

Raise your hand if you want to spend the next four years

Podignite ruku ako želite sljedeće četiri godine provesti

as angry and worried as you've been for the last year -- raise your hand.

ovako ljuti i zabrinuti kao što ste bili prošle godine -- dignite ruku.

Pa, ako želite od toga pobjeći,

So if you want to escape from this,

read Buddha, read Jesus, read Marcus Aurelius.

čitajte Budu, čitajte Isusa, čitajte Marka Aurelija.

They have all kinds of great advice for how to drop the fear,

Oni imaju gomilu raznih savjeta kako odagnati strah,

preustrojiti stvari,

reframe things,

prestati druge ljude gledati kao svoje neprijatelje.

stop seeing other people as your enemy.

There's a lot of guidance in ancient wisdom for this kind of empathy.

U drevnoj mudrosti ima mnogo smjernica za ovu vrstu empatije.

CA: Here's my last question:

CA: Evo mog zadnjeg pitanja:

Osobno, što ljudi mogu učiniti da pomognu ozdravljenju?

Personally, what can people do to help heal?

JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide to overcome your deepest prejudices.

JH: Vrlo je teško jednostavno odlučiti prevladati najdublje predrasude.

And there's research showing

A postoji i istraživanje koje pokazuje

that political prejudices are deeper and stronger than race prejudices

da su političke predrasude dublje i jače od rasnih predrasuda

in the country now.

danas u našoj zemlji.

So I think you have to make an effort -- that's the main thing.

Zato mislim da se morate potruditi -- to je glavna stvar.

Make an effort to actually meet somebody.

Potrudite se da stvarno nekoga upoznate.

Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,

Svatko ima bratića, šogora,

somebody who's on the other side.

nekoga tko je na drugoj strani.

So, after this election --

Pa, nakon ovih izbora --

wait a week or two,

pričekajte tjedan ili dva,

because it's probably going to feel awful for one of you --

jer će to vjerojatno teško pasti jednom od vas --

no pričekajte par tjedana i onda pružite ruku

but wait a couple weeks, and then reach out and say you want to talk.

i kažite da želite razgovarati.

And before you do it,

Ali prije no što to učinite,

read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" --

pročitajte Dalea Carnegia

"Kako steći prijatelje i utjecati na ljude" --

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

I'm totally serious.

Potpuno sam ozbiljan.

You'll learn techniques if you start by acknowledging,

Naučit ćete metode ako započnete prihvaćanjem,

ako započnete govoreći,

if you start by saying,

"You know, we don't agree on a lot,

"Znaš, mi se u mnogo toga ne slažemo,

but one thing I really respect about you, Uncle Bob,"

ali jednu stvar zbilja poštujem kod tebe, ujače Bob,"

or "... about you conservatives, is ... "

ili "... u vezi vas konzervativaca ..."

And you can find something.

I možete pronaći nešto.

If you start with some appreciation, it's like magic.

Ako započnete s malo uvažavanja, to je kao čarolija.

This is one of the main things I've learned

To je jedna od glavnih stvari koje sam naučio

that I take into my human relationships.

unijeti u svoje međuljudske odnose.

I still make lots of stupid mistakes,

Još uvijek radim mnogo glupih grešaka

but I'm incredibly good at apologizing now,

ali sam sada njevjerojatno dobar u ispričavanju

and at acknowledging what somebody was right about.

i u priznavanju da je netko bio u pravu.

And if you do that,

I ako to učinite,

then the conversation goes really well, and it's actually really fun.

onda razgovor teče zbilja dobro i ustvari je zabavan.

CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating speaking with you.

CA: Jon, zaista je fascinantno pričati s tobom.

It really does feel like the ground that we're on

Stvarno se čini da teren na kojem se nalazimo

is a ground populated by deep questions of morality and human nature.

je teren napučen dubokim pitanjima morala i ljudske prirode.

Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.

Tvoja mudrost ne može biti relevantnija.

Thank you so much for sharing this time with us.

Puno ti hvala za ovo vrijeme koje si podijelio s nama.

JH: Thanks, Chris.

JH: Hvala, Chris.

JH: Thanks, everyone.

JH: Hvala svima.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)