Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt

368,459 views ใƒป 2016-11-08

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ูŠุฑุฌู‰ ุงู„ู†ู‚ุฑ ู†ู‚ุฑู‹ุง ู…ุฒุฏูˆุฌู‹ุง ููˆู‚ ุงู„ุชุฑุฌู…ุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ ุฃุฏู†ุงู‡ ู„ุชุดุบูŠู„ ุงู„ููŠุฏูŠูˆ.

ุงู„ู…ุชุฑุฌู…: Nawal Sharabati ุงู„ู…ุฏู‚ู‘ู‚: Saud Albadeea
00:12
Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ ุฃู†ุฏุฑุณูˆู†: ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุฌูˆู†ุŒ ู†ุดุนุฑู ุจุงู„ุฎูˆู!
00:15
Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.
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ุฌูˆู†ุงุซุงู† ู‡ูŠุฏุช: ู†ุนู….
00:16
CA: It feels like the world is in a place
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ูŠุจุฏูˆ ูˆูƒุฃู† ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ููŠ ู…ูƒุงู†ู
00:18
that we haven't seen for a long time.
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ู„ู… ู†ุฑู‡ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ู…ู†ุฐู ุฒู…ู†ู ุจุนูŠุฏ.
00:20
People don't just disagree in the way that we're familiar with,
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ู„ุง ูŠุฎุชู„ูู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุงู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ุนุฑูู‡ุง ูู‚ุทุŒ
00:24
on the left-right political divide.
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ููŠู…ุง ูŠุชุนู„ู‚ ุจุงู„ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู… ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ ุฅู„ู‰ ูŠู…ูŠู† ูˆูŠุณุงุฑ
00:26
There are much deeper differences afoot.
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-ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฅุฎุชู„ุงูุงุช ุฃุนู…ู‚ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุนู„ู‰ ู‚ุฏู…ู ูˆุณุงู‚.
00:29
What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?
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ู…ุง ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุฌุฑูŠ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃุฑุถุŒ ูˆูƒูŠู ูˆุตู„ู†ุง ุฅู„ู‰ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉุŸ
00:33
JH: This is different.
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ุฌูˆู†: ุฅู†ู‡ ู…ุฎุชู„ู.
00:36
There's a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.
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ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุงู„ุดุนูˆุฑ ุงู„ู…ุฑูˆุน ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุจูƒุซูŠุฑ.
00:39
Survey research by Pew Research shows
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ุชุธู‡ุฑู ุฏุฑุงุณุฉ ุจุญุซูŠุฉ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ "ู…ุฑูƒุฒ ุจูŠูˆ ู„ู„ุฃุจุญุงุซ"
00:41
that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just --
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ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฏุฑุฌุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ุดุนุฑู ููŠู‡ุง ุฃู† ุงู„ุทุฑู ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ ู„ูŠุณ ูู‚ุท --
00:45
we don't just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,
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ู„ูŠุณ ุฃู†ู†ุง ู†ุจุบุถู‡ู… ูู‚ุทุ› ูˆู„ูƒู†ู†ุง ู†ุจุบุถู‡ู… ุจุดุฏุฉ.
00:48
and we think that they are a threat to the nation.
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ูˆู†ุนุชู‚ุฏู ุจุฃู†ู‡ู… ูŠุดูƒู„ูˆู† ุชู‡ุฏูŠุฏู‹ุง ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ุงู…ุฉ.
00:51
Those numbers have been going up and up,
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ุชุฒุฏุงุฏ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุฃุฑู‚ุงู… ูˆุชุฑุชูุน ูŠูˆู…ู‹ุง ุจุนุฏ ูŠูˆู….
00:53
and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.
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ูˆุชุฌุงูˆุฒุช ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุฃุฑู‚ุงู… 50% ู…ู† ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุขู†.
00:56
People are scared,
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ูŠุดุนุฑู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุจุงู„ุฎูˆูุŒ
00:57
because it feels like this is different than before; it's much more intense.
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ู„ุฃู† ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ูŠุจุฏูˆ ู…ุฎุชู„ูู‹ุง ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ุŒ ูˆุฃูƒุซุฑ ุญุฏุฉ ูˆูƒุซุงูุฉ.
01:01
Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,
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ูƒู„ู…ุง ุฃู†ุธุฑู ุฅู„ู‰ ุฃูŠ ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุฃู†ูˆุงุน ุงู„ุฃุญุงุฌูŠ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุฉุŒ
01:04
I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,
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ุฃุทุจู‚ู ุฏูˆู…ู‹ุง ุงู„ู…ุจุงุฏู‰ ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณูŠุฉ ุงู„ุซู„ุงุซุฉ ู„ุนู„ู… ุงู„ู†ูุณ ุงู„ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠุŒ
01:07
and I think they'll help us here.
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุณุชุณุงุนุฏู†ุง ู‡ู†ุง.
01:09
So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูุงู„ุดูŠุก ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุฃู† ุชุถุนูˆู†ู‡ ููŠ ุฅุนุชุจุงุฑูƒู… ุฏุงุฆู…ู‹ุง
01:11
when you're thinking about politics
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ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ุชููƒุฑูˆู† ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠุฉ
01:13
is that we're tribal.
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ู‡ูˆ ุฃู†ู†ุง ู‚ุจุงุฆู„.
01:15
We evolved for tribalism.
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ูˆู†ุญู† ู†ุชุทูˆุฑ ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ ุงู„ู‚ุจู„ูŠุฉ.
01:16
One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature
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ุฃุญุฏู ุฃุจุณุท ูˆุฃุนุธู… ุงู„ุฑุคู‰ ููŠ ุงู„ุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุฉ
01:19
is the Bedouin proverb:
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ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ุจุฏูˆูŠ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฆู„:
01:20
"Me against my brother;
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"ุฃู†ุง ุถุฏ ุฃุฎูŠุ›
01:22
me and my brother against our cousin;
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ูˆุฃู†ุง ูˆุฃุฎูŠ ุถุฏ ุฅุจู† ุนู…ูŠุ›
01:24
me and my brother and cousins against the stranger."
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ูˆุฃู†ุง ูˆุฃุฎูŠ ูˆุฃุจู†ุงุก ุนู…ูˆู…ุชูŠ ุถุฏ ุงู„ุบุฑูŠุจ".
01:26
And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies
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ูˆุชุณู…ุญู ู„ู†ุง ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู‚ุจู„ูŠุฉ ู„ุฅุญุฏุงุซ ู…ุฌุชู…ุนุงุช ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ
01:31
and to come together in order to compete with others.
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ูˆุงู„ุชุฌู…ุน ู…ุนู‹ุง ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ ุงู„ู…ู†ุงูุณุฉ ู…ุน ุงู„ุขุฎุฑูŠู†.
01:34
That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุฎุฑุฌู†ุง ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃุฏุบุงู„ ูˆู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุงุช ุงู„ุถูŠู‚ุฉุŒ
01:38
but it means that we have eternal conflict.
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ู„ูƒู† ุฐู„ูƒ ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุฃู†ู‡ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุตุฑุงุน ุงู„ุฃุจุฏูŠ.
01:40
The question you have to look at is:
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ุงู„ุณุคุงู„ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุงู„ู†ุธุฑ ุฅู„ูŠู‡ ู‡ูˆ:
ู…ุง ู‡ูŠ ุงู„ุฌูˆุงู†ุจ ู…ู† ู…ุฌุชู…ุนู†ุง ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุฌุนู„ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ุฑุงุฑุฉุŒ
01:42
What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,
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01:44
and what are calming them down?
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ูˆู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุดูŠุก ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุนู…ู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุชู‡ุฏุฆุชู‡ุง
01:46
CA: That's a very dark proverb.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ู‡ุฐุง ู…ุซู„ ูƒุฆูŠุจ.
01:47
You're saying that that's actually baked into most people's mental wiring
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ุฃู†ุช ุชู‚ูˆู„ ุฃู† ู‡ุฐุง ู…ู†ุบุฑุณ ููŠ ุนู‚ู„ูŠุชู†ุง
01:52
at some level?
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ุนู†ุฏ ู…ุณุชูˆู‰ ู…ุนูŠู†ุŸ
01:53
JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.
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ุฌูˆู†: ุชู…ุงู…ู‹ุง. ู‡ุฐุง ู…ูู‡ูˆู… ุฃุณุงุณูŠ ู…ู† ุงู„ูˆุนูŠ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ.
ูˆู„ูƒู† ู†ุณุชุทูŠุน ุงู„ุนูŠุด ู…ุนุงู‹ ุจุณู„ุงู…ุŒ
01:57
But we can also live together really peacefully,
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01:59
and we've invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.
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ูˆู„ู‚ุฏ ุงุฎุชุฑุนู†ุง ูƒู„ ุฃู†ูˆุงุน ุงู„ุทุฑู‚ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ูŠุฉ ู…ู† ู…ุซู„ุงู‹ุŒ ู„ุนุจ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ.
02:02
I mean, sports, politics --
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ุงุนู†ูŠ ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ุฑูŠุงุถุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ --
02:04
these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature
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ุฌู…ูŠุน ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ูˆุณุงุฆู„ ุนู„ูŠู†ุง ู…ู…ุงุฑุณุชู‡ุง ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ ุงู„ุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุงู„ู‚ุจู„ูŠุฉ
02:08
without actually hurting anyone.
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ุฏูˆู† ุฃุฐูŠุฉ ุฃูŠ ุฃุญุฏ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน.
02:09
We're also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.
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ู†ุญู†ู ุฃูŠุถู‹ุง ุฌูŠุฏูˆู† ููŠ ุงู„ุชุฌุงุฑุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฅูƒุชุดุงูุงุช ูˆู…ู‚ุงุจู„ุฉ ู†ุงุณ ุฌุฏุฏ.
02:14
So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down --
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุฑุคูŠุฉ ุงู„ู‚ุจู„ูŠุฉ ูƒุดูŠุก ูŠุตุนุฏู ูˆูŠู‡ุจุทู --
ุฅู†ู‡ุง ู„ูŠุณุช ูˆูƒุฃู†ู‡ ู…ุญูƒูˆู… ุนู„ูŠู†ุง ุฃู† ูŠู‚ุงุชู„ ุฃุญุฏู†ุง ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ ุฏูˆู…ู‹ุงุŒ
02:17
it's not like we're doomed to always be fighting each other,
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ู„ูƒู† ู„ู† ู†ู†ุนู…ูŽ ุจุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ูŠ ุฃุจุฏู‹ุง.
02:20
but we'll never have world peace.
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02:22
CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ูŠู…ูƒู†ู ู„ุญุฌู… ุชู„ูƒ ุงู„ู‚ุจูŠู„ุฉ ุฃู† ุชุชู‚ู„ุต ูˆุชุชูˆุณุน.
02:26
JH: Right.
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ุฌูˆู†: ุชู…ุงู…ู‹ุง.
02:27
CA: The size of what we consider "us"
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุญุฌู… ู…ุง ู†ุนุชุจุฑู‡ "ู†ุญู†ู"
02:29
and what we consider "other" or "them"
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ูˆู…ุง ู†ุนุชุจุฑู‡ "ุงู„ุขุฎุฑูŠู†" ุฃูˆ "ู‡ู…"
02:31
can change.
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ูŠู…ูƒู† ุฃู† ูŠุชุบูŠุฑ.
02:34
And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.
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ูˆุธู†ู‘ ุจุนุถ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠู…ูƒู†ู ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู†ู‡ุฌ ุฃู† ูŠุณุชู…ุฑ ุฅู„ู‰ ุฃุฌู„ู ุบูŠุฑ ู…ุณู…ู‰.
02:40
JH: That's right.
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ุฌูˆู†: ู‡ุฐุง ุตุญูŠุญ.
02:41
CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ูˆู†ุญู† ู†ูˆุณุนู ุจุงู„ูุนู„ ู…ุนู†ู‰ ุงู„ู‚ุจูŠู„ุฉ ู„ูุชุฑุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฒู…ู†.
02:44
JH: So this is, I think,
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ุฌูˆู†: ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ูƒู…ุง ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏุŒ
02:45
where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction.
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ุญูŠุซ ู†ุตู„ู ุฑุจู…ุง ุนู†ุฏ ุงู„ูุงุฑู‚ ุงู„ุฌุฏูŠุฏ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู† ูˆุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ.
02:49
I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it,
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ุฃู‚ุตุฏู ุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู† ูˆุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูˆุฑุซู†ุงู‡ุŒ
02:51
comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠู†ุจุซู‚ู ุนู† ุงู„ูุงุฑู‚ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุนู…ู„ ูˆุฑุฃุณ ุงู„ู…ุงู„ุŒ
02:54
and the working class, and Marx.
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ูˆุจูŠู† ุงู„ุทุจู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุนุงู…ู„ุฉ ูˆ "ู…ุงุฑูƒุณ".
02:56
But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู†ู†ุง ู†ุฑู‰ ุงู„ุขู† ูˆุจุชุฒุงูŠุฏุŒ
02:59
is a divide in all the Western democracies
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ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู… ููŠ ูƒู„ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุงุช ุงู„ุบุฑุจูŠุฉ
03:01
between the people who want to stop at nation,
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ุจูŠู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ุงู„ุชูˆู‚ู ุนู†ุฏ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฉุŒ
03:05
the people who are more parochial --
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ูˆุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‡ู… ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุชุทุฑูู‹ุง --
03:07
and I don't mean that in a bad way --
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ูˆู„ุง ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠ ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุณูŠุฆุฉ --
03:09
people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,
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ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู„ุฏูŠู‡ู… ู…ุนู†ู‰ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ู† ูƒูˆู†ู‡ู… ุฑุงุณุฎูˆู†ุŒ
03:12
they care about their town, their community and their nation.
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ูŠู‡ุชู…ูˆู† ุจู…ุฏู†ู‡ู… ูˆู…ุฌุชู…ุนุงุชู‡ู… ูˆุฃู…ู…ู‡ู… ุงู„ุฎุงุตุฉ.
03:15
And then those who are anti-parochial and who --
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ูˆู…ู† ุซู… ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‡ู… ุถุฏ ุงู„ุชุทุฑู ูˆุงู„ุฐูŠู† --
03:19
whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine."
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ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠุญุตู„ู ูˆุฃุชุญูŠุฑุŒ ุฃููƒุฑ ููŠ ู…ุบู†ูŠ ุงู„ุจูŠุชู„ุฒ "ุฌูˆู† ู„ูŠู†ูˆู†" ููŠ ุฃุบู†ูŠุชู‡ "ุชุฎูŠู„ูˆุง."
03:23
"Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for."
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"ุชุฎูŠู„ูˆุง ู„ูŠุณ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฏูˆู„ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุดูŠุก ู„ุชู‚ุชู„ ุฃูˆ ุชู…ูˆุช ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ู‡."
03:26
And so these are the people who want more global governance,
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ูˆู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฑุบุจูˆู† ููŠ ุญูƒูˆู…ุฉ ุฏูˆู„ูŠุฉุŒ
03:29
they don't like nation states, they don't like borders.
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ู„ุง ูŠุญุจูˆู† ุงู„ุฏูˆู„ ุงู„ู‚ูˆู…ูŠุฉุŒ ูˆู„ุง ูŠุญุจูˆู† ุงู„ุญุฏูˆุฏ.
03:32
You see this all over Europe as well.
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ูˆุชุฑู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠ ูƒู„ ุฃู†ุญุงุก ุฃูˆุฑูˆุจุง ูƒุฐู„ูƒ.
03:33
There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare --
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฅุณุชุนุงุฑุฉ ุงู„ุดุงุจ ุงู„ุฑุงุฆุน -- ูŠูุฏุนู‰ ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ "ุดูƒุณุจูŠุฑ"--
03:37
writing ten years ago in Britain.
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ูƒุชุจ ู‚ุจู„ ุนุดุฑ ุณู†ูˆุงุช ููŠ ุจุฑูŠุทุงู†ูŠุง.
03:38
He had a metaphor:
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ู„ุฏูŠู‡ ุงู„ุฅุณุชุนุงุฑุฉ ุงู„ู„ุบูˆูŠุฉ:
03:39
"Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"
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"ู‡ู„ ู†ุญู†ู ู…ู† ูŠุฑูุน ุงู„ุฌุณูˆุฑ ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฑูƒุฉ ุฃูˆ ู…ู† ูŠู…ุฏู ุงู„ุฌุณูˆุฑ ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฑูƒุฉุŸ"
03:43
And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.
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ูˆุจุฑูŠุทุงู†ูŠุง ู…ู‚ุณู…ุฉ ุฅู„ู‰ ู†ุณุจุฉ 52-48.
03:46
And America is divided on that point, too.
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ูˆุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุง ู…ู‚ุณู…ุฉ ุนู†ุฏ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ุฃูŠุถู‹ุง.
03:49
CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ูˆู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ู…ู† ู†ุดุฃ ู…ู†ุง ููŠ ุฒู…ู† ุงู„ูุฑู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุบู†ุงุฆูŠุฉ "ุงู„ุจูŠุชู„ุฒ"
03:52
and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world --
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ูˆู…ุน ูู„ุณูุฉ ู…ุนุงุฑุถุฉ ุงู„ุฑุฃุณู…ุงู„ูŠุฉ "ุงู„ู‡ูŠุจุฒ" ูˆุงู„ุญู„ู… ููŠ ุนุงู„ู… ู…ุชุตู„ ุฃูƒุซุฑ --
03:56
it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?"
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ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุดุนูˆุฑ ู…ุซุงู„ูŠู‹ุง "ูˆูƒูŠู ูŠู…ูƒู†ู ุฃูŠ ุดุฎุต ุฃู† ูŠููƒุฑ ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุณูŠุฆุฉ ุญูˆู„ ุฐู„ูƒุŸ"
04:00
And what you're saying is that, actually,
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ูˆู…ุง ุชู‚ูˆู„ู‡ ู‡ูˆ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุนุŒ
04:02
millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly;
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ูŠุดุนุฑู ู…ู„ุงูŠูŠู† ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ูŠูˆู… ุจุฃู† ุฐู„ูƒ ู„ูŠุณ ูู‚ุท ุณุฎูŠูู‹ุงุ›
04:07
it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.
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ุฅู†ู‡ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ุฎุทูŠุฑ ูˆุฎุงุทู‰ุกุŒ ูˆุฅู†ู‡ู… ุฎุงุฆููˆู† ู…ู†ู‡.
04:09
JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,
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ุฌูˆู†: ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู† ุงู„ู‚ุถูŠุฉ ุงู„ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ ููŠ ุฃูˆุฑูˆุจุง ุฎุตูˆุตู‹ุงุŒ ูˆู„ูƒู† ู‡ู†ุง ุฃูŠุถู‹ุงุŒ
04:13
is the issue of immigration.
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ู‡ูŠ ู‚ุถูŠุฉ ุงู„ู‡ุฌุฑุฉ.
04:14
And I think this is where we have to look very carefully
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ุญูŠุซ ุนู„ูŠู†ุง ุฃู† ู†ู†ุธุฑ ุจุนู†ุงูŠุฉ ูุงุฆู‚ุฉ
04:17
at the social science about diversity and immigration.
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ููŠ ุงู„ุนู„ูˆู… ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุฉ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุชู†ูˆุน ูˆุงู„ู‡ุฌุฑุฉ.
04:21
Once something becomes politicized,
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ุญุงู„ู…ุง ูŠุชู… ุชุณูŠุณ ุฃูŠ ุดูŠุกุŒ
04:22
once it becomes something that the left loves and the right --
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ุญุงู„ู…ุง ูŠุตุจุญู ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ุดูŠุฆู‹ุง ูŠุญุจู‡ ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ ูˆุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู† --
04:25
then even the social scientists can't think straight about it.
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ุญุชู‰ ุจุงู„ุชุงู„ูŠ ู„ุง ูŠุณุชุทูŠุน ุนู„ู…ุงุก ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุน ุงู„ุชููƒูŠุฑ ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุณู„ูŠู…ุฉ ุญูˆู„ู‡.
04:29
Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุงู„ุชู†ูˆุน ุฌูŠุฏ ููŠ ูƒุซูŠุฑู ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃุญูˆุงู„.
04:31
It clearly creates more innovation.
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ูŠุญุฏุซู ุจูˆุถูˆุญ ุงู„ู…ุฒูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฅุจุฏุงุน.
04:33
The American economy has grown enormously from it.
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ู‚ุฏ ุชู… ู†ู…ูˆ ุงู„ุฅู‚ุชุตุงุฏ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠ ุจุดูƒู„ ูƒุจูŠุฑ ู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ุงู„ุชู†ูˆุน.
04:35
Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.
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ูŠุนู…ู„ู ุงู„ุชู†ูˆุน ูˆุงู„ู‡ุฌุฑุฉ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุฌูŠุฏุฉ.
04:38
But what the globalists, I think, don't see,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ู…ุง ู„ุง ูŠุฑุงู‡ ุฃู†ุตุงุฑ ุงู„ุนูˆู„ู…ุฉ ููŠ ุฅุนุชู‚ุงุฏูŠุŒ
04:40
what they don't want to see,
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ู…ุง ู„ุง ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ุฑุคูŠุชู‡ุŒ
04:42
is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.
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ู‡ูˆ ุฃู† ุงู„ุชู†ูˆุน ุงู„ุนุฑู‚ูŠ ูŠู‚ู„ู‘ุต ุฑุฃุณ ุงู„ู…ุงู„ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ ูˆุงู„ุซู‚ุฉ.
04:48
There's a very important study by Robert Putnam,
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฏุฑุงุณุฉ ู…ู‡ู…ุฉ ุฌุฏู‹ุง ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ "ุฑูˆุจุฑุช ุจูˆุชู†ุงู…"ุŒ
04:51
the author of "Bowling Alone,"
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ู…ุคู„ู ูƒุชุงุจ "ุฅู„ุนุจ ู„ูˆุญุฏูƒุŒ"
04:52
looking at social capital databases.
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ุชุจุญุซู ููŠ ุจูŠุงู†ุงุช ุฑุฃุณ ุงู„ู…ุงู„ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ.
04:54
And basically, the more people feel that they are the same,
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ููŠ ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณุŒ ูƒู„ู…ุง ูŠุดุนุฑู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ู…ุชุดุงุจู‡ูˆู†ุŒ
04:57
the more they trust each other,
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ูƒู„ู…ุง ูŠุซู‚ูˆู† ุจุจุนุถู‡ู… ุงู„ุจุนุถ ุฃูƒุซุฑุŒ
04:59
the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state.
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ูˆูƒู„ู…ุง ูƒุงู† ุจุฅู…ูƒุงู†ู‡ู… ุฅุนุงุฏุฉ ุชูˆุฒูŠุน ุงู„ุฑูุงู‡ูŠุฉ ููŠู…ุง ุจูŠู†ู‡ู… ุฃูƒุซุฑ.
ุงู„ุฏูˆู„ ุงู„ุฅุณูƒู†ุฏู†ุงููŠุฉ ู‡ูŠ ุฑุงุฆุนุฉ ุฌุฏู‹ุง
05:02
Scandinavian countries are so wonderful
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ู„ุฃู† ู„ุฏูŠู‡ู… ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุฅุฑุซ ู„ูƒูˆู†ู‡ู… ุฏูˆู„ ุตุบูŠุฑุฉ ูˆู…ุชุฌุงู†ุณุฉ.
05:04
because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries.
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05:07
And that leads to a progressive welfare state,
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ูˆูŠุคุฏูŠ ู‡ุฐุง ุฅู„ู‰ ุญุงู„ุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฑูุงู‡ูŠุฉ ุงู„ู…ุชุตุงุนุฏุฉุŒ
ูˆุฅู„ู‰ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ุงู„ู‚ูŠู… ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชุตุงุนุฏูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชู‚ูˆู„ุŒ
05:11
a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says,
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"ุฃู†ุฒู„ูˆุง ุงู„ุฌุณุฑ ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฑูƒ! ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ู‡ูˆ ู…ูƒุงู† ุฑุงุฆุน.
05:14
"Drawbridge down! The world is a great place.
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05:17
People in Syria are suffering -- we must welcome them in."
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ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุณูˆุฑูŠุง ูŠุนุงู†ูˆู† -- ูˆุนู„ูŠู†ุง ุงู„ุชุฑุญูŠุจ ููŠู‡ู… ุนู†ุฏู†ุง."
05:20
And it's a beautiful thing.
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ูˆู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ุดูŠุก ุฌู…ูŠู„.
05:21
But if, and I was in Sweden this summer,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฅุฐุงุŒ ู‚ุฏ ูƒู†ุชู ููŠ ุงู„ุณูˆูŠุฏ ููŠ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุตูŠูุŒ
05:24
if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct
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ูˆู„ูˆ ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุฎุทุงุจ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ ููŠ ุงู„ุณูˆูŠุฏ ุตุญูŠุญุงู‹ ุฅู„ู‰ ุญุฏู ู…ุง
05:27
and they can't talk about the downsides,
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ูˆู„ู… ูŠุณุชุทูŠุนูˆุง ุงู„ุชุญุฏุซ ุนู† ุงู„ุฌูˆุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุณู„ุจูŠุฉุŒ
05:30
you end up bringing a lot of people in.
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ููŠู†ุชู‡ูŠ ุงู„ู…ุทุงู ุจู‡ู… ุฅู„ู‰ ุฌู„ุจ ุงู„ุนุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ.
05:32
That's going to cut social capital,
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ูˆุณูŠุชู…ู ุชู‚ู„ูŠุต ุฑุฃุณ ุงู„ู…ุงู„ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุŒ
05:33
it makes it hard to have a welfare state
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ูุฅู†ู‡ ูŠุฌุนู„ ู…ู† ุงู„ุตุนุจ ุงู„ุญุตูˆู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุญุงู„ุฉ ุงู„ุฑูุงู‡ูŠุฉ
05:35
and they might end up, as we have in America,
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ูˆุฑุจู…ุง ูŠู†ุชู‡ูŠ ุงู„ู…ุทุงู ุจู‡ู…ุŒ ูƒู…ุง ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ููŠ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุงุŒ
05:38
with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society.
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ู…ุน ุงู†ู‚ุณุงู… ุนู†ุตุฑูŠุŒ ู…ุฌุชู…ุน ู…ู†ู‚ุณู… ุนู†ุตุฑูŠู‹ุง ุจูƒู„ ูˆุถูˆุญ.
05:41
So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about.
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ูƒู„ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุฃู…ูˆุฑ ู…ู† ุบูŠุฑ ุงู„ู…ุฑูŠุญ ุงู„ุชุญุฏุซ ุนู†ู‡ุง.
05:44
But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู† ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุดูŠุกุŒ ุฎุงุตุฉู‹ ููŠ ุฃูˆุฑูˆุจุง ูˆุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ุฅู„ูŠู†ุง ุฃูŠุถู‹ุงุŒ
05:47
we need to be looking at.
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ู†ุญุชุงุฌู ู„ู„ู†ุธุฑ ููŠู‡ุง.
05:48
CA: You're saying that people of reason,
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุฃู†ุชูŽ ุชู‚ูˆู„ ุฃู† ุฃุตุญุงุจ ุงู„ุนู‚ูˆู„ ุงู„ุฑุงุญุฌุฉุŒ
05:50
people who would consider themselves not racists,
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ุงู„ุฃุดุฎุงุต ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุนุชุจุฑูˆู† ุฃู†ูุณู‡ู… ุบูŠุฑ ุนู†ุตุฑูŠูŠู†ุŒ
05:53
but moral, upstanding people,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠูŠู† ูˆุฃุดุฎุงุต ุดุฑูุงุกุŒ
05:55
have a rationale that says humans are just too different;
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ู„ุฏูŠู‡ู… ุงู„ู…ู†ุทู‚ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠู‚ูˆู„: ุงู„ุจุดุฑ ู‡ู… ูู‚ุท ู…ุฎุชู„ููˆู† ุฌุฏู‹ุงุ›
05:58
that we're in danger of overloading our sense of what humans are capable of,
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ูˆุฃู†ู†ุง ููŠ ุฎุทุฑ ุฅู†ู‡ุงูƒ ุฅุญุณุงุณู†ุง ุจู…ุง ูŠุณุชุทูŠุน ุงู„ุจุดุฑ ุงู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจู‡ุŒ
06:03
by mixing in people who are too different.
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ุนู† ุทุฑูŠู‚ ุฎู„ุท ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‡ู… ู…ุฎุชู„ููˆู†.
06:06
JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable
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ุฌูˆู†: ู†ุนู…ุŒ ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฃุณุชุทูŠุน ุฌุนู„ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู‚ุจูˆู„ู‹ุง
06:09
by saying it's not necessarily about race.
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ุจุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ู„ูŠุณ ุจุงู„ุถุฑูˆุฑุฉ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุนู†ุตุฑูŠุฉ.
06:12
It's about culture.
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ุฅู† ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุซู‚ุงูุฉ.
06:14
There's wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner,
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุนู…ู„ ุฌู…ูŠู„ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ุนุงู„ู… ุณูŠุงุณูŠ ูŠุฏุนู‰ "ูƒุงุฑู† ุณุชู†ุฑ"ุŒ
06:18
who shows that when people have a sense
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ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุจูŠู†ู ุฃู†ู‡ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠูƒูˆู† ู„ุฏู‰ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฅุญุณุงุณ
06:21
that we are all united, we're all the same,
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ุฃู†ู†ุง ู…ุชุญุฏูˆู† ุฌู…ูŠู‹ุนุงุŒ ูˆุฃู†ู†ุง ู…ุชุณุงูˆูˆู† ุฌู…ูŠุนู‹ุงุŒ
06:23
there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism.
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ุนุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู„ุฏูŠู‡ู… ู‚ุงุจู„ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฅุณุชุจุฏุงุฏ.
06:27
Those people aren't particularly racist
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ู„ูŠุณ ุจุงู„ุถุฑูˆุฑุฉ ุฃู† ูŠูƒูˆู† ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุนู†ุตุฑูŠูŠู†
06:29
when they feel as through there's not a threat
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ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠุดุนุฑูˆู† ุจุฃู†ู‡ ู„ุง ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุชู‡ุฏูŠุฏ
06:31
to our social and moral order.
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ู„ู†ุธุงู…ู†ุง ุงู„ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠ ูˆุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ.
06:33
But if you prime them experimentally
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ู„ูˆ ุชู… ุฅุนุฏุงุฏู‡ู… ุนู„ู‰ ู†ุญูˆู ุชุฌุฑูŠุจูŠ
06:35
by thinking we're coming apart, people are getting more different,
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ุนู† ุทุฑูŠู‚ ุงู„ุฅุนุชู‚ุงุฏ ุจุฃู†ู†ุง ุณู†ุตุจุญู ู…ู†ูุตู„ูŠู†ุŒ ูุณูŠุดุนุฑ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุจุงู„ุฅุฎุชู„ุงู ุฃูƒุซุฑุŒ
06:38
then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants.
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ูˆุณูŠุตุจุญูˆุง ุนู†ุตุฑูŠูŠู† ุฃูƒุซุฑุŒ ูˆูŠุฎุงููˆู† ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุซู„ูŠูŠู† ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ุทุฑุฏ ูƒู„ ู…ู† ู‡ูˆ ู…ุฎุชู„ู ู…ู†ุญุฑู.
06:41
So it's in part that you get an authoritarian reaction.
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูููŠ ุฌุฒุก ู…ู†ู‡ุŒ ูุฅู†ู‡ ูŠุตุจุญ ู„ุฏูŠูƒู… ุฑุฏุฉ ุงู„ูุนู„ ุงู„ุฅุณุชุจุฏุงุฏูŠุฉ.
06:44
The left, following through the Lennonist line --
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ูุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑุŒ ุฃุชุจุงุน ุฎุท "ุฌูˆู† ู„ูŠู†ูˆู†" --
06:47
the John Lennon line --
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ุฎุท "ุฌูˆู† ู„ูŠู†ูˆู†" --
06:48
does things that create an authoritarian reaction.
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ุนู…ู„ูˆุง ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุญุฏุซ ุฑุฏุฉ ุงู„ูุนู„ ุงู„ุฅุณุชุจุฏุงูŠุฉ.
06:50
We're certainly seeing that in America with the alt-right.
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ู†ุญู†ู ู†ุฑู‰ ู‡ุฐุง ุจุงู„ุชุฃูƒูŠุฏ ู‡ู†ุง ููŠ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุง ู…ุน ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ุจุฏูŠู„ ุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู†.
06:53
We saw it in Britain, we've seen it all over Europe.
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ูˆุฑุฃูŠู†ุงู‡ ููŠ ุจุฑูŠุทุงู†ูŠุงุŒ ูˆุฑุฃูŠู†ุงู‡ ููŠ ูƒู„ ุฃู†ุญุงุก ุฃูˆุฑูˆุจุง.
06:56
But the more positive part of that
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ู„ูƒู† ุงู„ุฌุฒุก ุงู„ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุฅูŠุฌุงุจูŠู‡ ููŠู‡
06:58
is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right --
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ู‡ูˆ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู† ุงู„ูˆุทู†ูŠูŠู†ุŒ ุฃูˆ ุงู„ู‚ูˆู…ูŠูŠู† ู‡ู… ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ุตุงุฆุจูˆู† --
07:03
that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity,
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ุฅุฐุง ุฃูƒุฏุชู… ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุชุดุงุจู‡ ุงู„ุซู‚ุงููŠ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุงุŒ
07:07
then race doesn't actually matter very much.
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ุงู„ุนู†ุตุฑูŠุฉ ุจุงู„ุชุงู„ูŠ ู„ุง ุชู‡ู… ูƒุซูŠุฑู‹ุง ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน.
07:09
So an assimilationist approach to immigration
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ูู†ู‡ุฌ ุงู„ุฅุณุชูŠุนุงุจ ูˆุงู„ุชู‚ุจู„ ู†ุญูˆ ุงู„ู‡ุฌุฑุฉ
07:12
removes a lot of these problems.
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ูŠู‚ุถูŠ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุดุงูƒู„.
07:13
And if you value having a generous welfare state,
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ูˆุฅุฐุง ู‚ูŠู…ุชู… ุญุงู„ุฉ ุงู„ุฑูุงู‡ ุงู„ุณุฎูŠุฉ ู„ุฏูŠูƒู…ุŒ
07:16
you've got to emphasize that we're all the same.
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ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุงู„ุชุฃูƒูŠุฏ ุจุฃู†ู†ุง ู…ุชุณุงูˆูˆู† ุฌู…ูŠุนู‹ุง.
07:18
CA: OK, so rising immigration and fears about that
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุญุณู†ู‹ุงุŒ ุฅุฐู† ุงุฑุชูุงุน ุงู„ู‡ุฌุฑุฉ ูˆุงู„ู…ุฎุงูˆู ุญูˆู„ู‡ุง
07:21
are one of the causes of the current divide.
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ู‡ูŠ ุฃุญุฏ ุฃุณุจุงุจ ุงู„ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู… ุงู„ุญุงู„ูŠ.
07:25
What are other causes?
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ู…ุง ู‡ูŠ ุงู„ุฃุณุจุงุจ ุงู„ุงุฎุฑู‰ุŸ
07:26
JH: The next principle of moral psychology
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ุฌูˆู†: ุงู„ู…ุจุฏุฃ ุงู„ุชุงู„ูŠ ู…ู† ุนู„ู… ุงู„ู†ูุณ ุงู„ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠ
07:28
is that intuitions come first, strategic reasoning second.
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ู‡ูˆ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณุชู†ุชุงุฌ ูŠุฃุชูŠ ุฃูˆู„ู‹ุงุŒ ูˆุงู„ุณุจุจ ุงู„ุฅุณุชูŠุฑุงุชูŠุฌูŠ ุซุงู†ูŠู‹ุง
07:32
You've probably heard the term "motivated reasoning"
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ุฑุจู…ุง ู‚ุฏ ุณู…ุนุชู… ุจุงู„ู…ุตุทู„ุญ "ุงู„ุฅุณุชุฏู„ุงู„ ุงู„ู…ุดุฌู‘ุน"
07:35
or "confirmation bias."
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ุฃูˆ "ุชุฃูƒูŠุฏ ุงู„ุชุญูŠุฒ".
07:36
There's some really interesting work
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ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุนุถ ุงู„ุนู…ู„ ุงู„ู…ุซูŠุฑ ู„ู„ุฅุนุฌุงุจ
07:38
on how our high intelligence and our verbal abilities
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ุนู† ูƒูŠู ูŠู…ูƒู†ู ู„ู„ุฐูƒุงุก ุงู„ุนุงู„ูŠ ูˆุงู„ู‚ุฏุฑุงุช ุงู„ู„ูุธูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง
07:41
might have evolved not to help us find out the truth,
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ุฃู† ุชุชุทูˆุฑ ู„ูŠุณ ู„ู…ุณุงุนุฏุชู†ุง ููŠ ู…ุนุฑูุฉ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉุŒ
07:45
but to help us manipulate each other, defend our reputation ...
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ู„ู…ุณุงุนุฏุชู†ุง ู„ู„ุชู„ุงุนุจ ู…ุน ุจุนุถู†ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถุŒ ุงู„ุฏูุงุน ุนู† ุณู…ุนุชู†ุง ...
07:48
We're really, really good at justifying ourselves.
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ู†ุญู†ู ุญู‚ู‹ุง ุฌูŠุฏูˆู† ููŠ ุชุจุฑูŠุฑ ุฃู†ูุณู†ุง
07:51
And when you bring group interests into account,
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ูˆุนู†ุฏู…ุง ู†ุถุนู ู…ุตุงู„ุญ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑูŠู† ููŠ ุงู„ุฅุนุชุจุงุฑุŒ
07:53
so it's not just me, it's my team versus your team,
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ูู„ูŠุณ ูˆุญุฏูŠุŒ ูˆุฅู†ู…ุง ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุชูŠ ุถุฏ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุชูƒุŒ
07:56
whereas if you're evaluating evidence that your side is wrong,
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ุญูŠุซ ุฅุฐุง ู‚ูŠู…ุชู… ุงู„ุฏู„ูŠู„ ุจุฃู† ูุฑูŠู‚ูƒู… ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฎุงุทู‰ุก
07:59
we just can't accept that.
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ูู„ู† ู†ุชู‚ุจู„ ุฐู„ูƒ.
08:01
So this is why you can't win a political argument.
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ูˆู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุณุจุจ ู„ู† ุชุณุชุทูŠุนูˆุง ูƒุณุจ ุฌุฏุงู„ ุณูŠุงุณูŠ
08:03
If you're debating something,
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ุฅุฐุง ูƒู†ุชู… ุชู†ุงู‚ุดูˆู† ุดูŠุฆู‹ุงุŒ
08:05
you can't persuade the person with reasons and evidence,
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ู„ู† ุชุณุชุทูŠุนูˆุง ุฅู‚ู†ุงุน ุงู„ุดุฎุต ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ ุจุงู„ุฃุณุจุงุจ ูˆุงู„ุฏู„ูŠู„ุŒ
08:08
because that's not the way reasoning works.
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ุจุณุจุจ ู„ูŠุณุช ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠุนู…ู„ู ููŠู‡ุง ุงู„ู…ู†ุทู‚.
08:10
So now, give us the internet, give us Google:
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ูุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุฃุนุทู†ุง ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฑู†ุชุŒ ูˆุฃุนุทู†ุง ุฌูˆุฌู„:
08:14
"I heard that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.
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"ุณู…ุนุชู ุฃู† "ุจุงุฑุงูƒ ุฃูˆุจุงู…ุง" ู‚ุฏ ูˆู„ุฏ ููŠ ูƒูŠู†ูŠุง.
08:17
Let me Google that -- oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"
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ุฏุนู†ูŠ ุฃุชุตูุญ ุฌูˆุฌู„ -- ูŠุง ุฅู„ู‡ูŠ! 10 ู…ู„ุงูŠูŠู† ุฒูŠุงุฑุฉ! ุฃู†ุทุฑูˆุงุŒ ู‚ุฏ ูˆู„ุฏ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ!"
08:21
CA: So this has come as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of people.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูู‚ุฏ ูƒุงู†ุช ุชู„ูƒ ู…ูุงุฌุฃุฉ ุบูŠุฑ ุณุงุฑุฉ ู„ู„ุนุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ.
08:24
Social media has often been framed by techno-optimists
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ุชู… ุชุทูˆูŠู‚ ูˆุณุงุฆู„ ุงู„ุชูˆุงุตู„ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ุงู„ู…ุชูุงุฆู„ูŠู† ุจุงู„ุฃุชู…ุชุฉ
08:27
as this great connecting force that would bring people together.
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ูƒู…ุง ูˆุฃู† ู‚ูˆุฉ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุชูˆุงุตู„ ุงู„ุฑุงุฆุน ุณูŠุฌู…ุนู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู…ุนู‹ุง.
08:32
And there have been some unexpected counter-effects to that.
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ูˆูƒุงู†ุช ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุนุถ ุงู„ุขุซุงุฑ ุงู„ุนูƒุณูŠุฉ ุบูŠุฑ ุงู„ู…ุชูˆู‚ุนุฉ ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ.
08:36
JH: That's right.
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ุฌูˆู†: ู‡ุฐุง ุตุญูŠุญ.
08:38
That's why I'm very enamored of yin-yang views
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ูˆู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุณุจุจ ุฃู†ุง ู…ุชูŠู… ุจุฃุฑุงุก ุงู„ูŠูŠู† ูŠุงู†ุบ
08:40
of human nature and left-right --
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ุจุดุฃู† ุงู„ุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠุฉ ูˆุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู† ูˆุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ --
08:42
that each side is right about certain things,
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ุจุฃู† ูƒู„ ุฌุงู†ุจ ู‡ูˆ ู…ุญู‚ ุญูˆู„ ุฃุดูŠุงุก ู…ุนูŠู†ุฉุŒ
08:44
but then it goes blind to other things.
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ู„ูƒู† ู„ุงุญู‚ู‹ุง ูŠุตุจุญ ุฃุนู…ู‰ ุจุดุฃู† ุฃู…ูˆุฑ ุฃุฎุฑู‰.
08:46
And so the left generally believes that human nature is good:
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ูˆู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏู ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑูŠูˆู† ุนุงู…ุฉู‹ ุฃู† ุงู„ุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠุฉ ู‡ูŠ ุฌูŠุฏุฉ:
08:49
bring people together, knock down the walls and all will be well.
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ุชุฌู…ุนู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู…ุนู‹ุง ูˆุชู‡ุฏู…ู ุงู„ุฌุฏุฑุงู† ูˆุณูŠูƒูˆู† ูƒู„ ุดูŠุก ุนู„ู‰ ู…ุง ูŠุฑุงู….
08:52
The right -- social conservatives, not libertarians --
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ุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู† -- ุงู„ู…ุญุงูุธูˆู† ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠูˆู†ุŒ ูˆู„ูŠุณ ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฑุฑูŠู† --
08:55
social conservatives generally believe people can be greedy
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ูŠุนุชุฏู ุงู„ู…ุญุงูุธูˆู† ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠูˆู† ุนุงู…ุฉู‹ ุจุฃู†ู‡ ูŠู…ูƒู†ู ู„ู„ู†ุงุณ ุฃู† ุชูƒูˆู† ุฌุดุนุฉ
08:59
and sexual and selfish,
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ูˆุฌู†ุณูŠุฉ ูˆุฃู†ุงู†ูŠุฉุŒ
09:01
and we need regulation, and we need restrictions.
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ูˆู†ุญู†ู ู†ุญุชุงุฌู ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู‚ุงู†ูˆู†ุŒ ูˆู†ุญุชุงุฌู ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู‚ูŠูˆุฏ.
09:04
So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูู†ุนู…ุŒ ุฅุฐุง ู‡ุฏู…ุชู… ูƒู„ ุงู„ุฌุฏุฑุงู†ุŒ
09:06
allow people to communicate all over the world,
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ูˆุณู…ุญุชู… ู„ู„ู†ุงุณ ู„ู„ุชูˆุงุตู„ ููŠ ูƒู„ ุฃู†ุญุงุก ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ุŒ
09:08
you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.
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ูุณุชุญุตู„ูˆู† ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฅุจุงุญูŠุฉ ูˆุงู„ุนู†ุตุฑูŠุฉ.
09:10
CA: So help us understand.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุณุงุนุฏู†ุง ููŠ ูู‡ู… ุฐู„ูƒ.
09:12
These principles of human nature have been with us forever.
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ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ุจุงุฏู‰ุก ู„ู„ุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠุฉ ุฏุงุฆู…ู‹ุง.
09:18
What's changed that's deepened this feeling of division?
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ู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุชุบูŠุฑ ูˆุงู„ุฐูŠ ุนู…ู‘ู‚ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุดุนูˆุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู…ุŸ
09:24
JH: You have to see six to ten different threads all coming together.
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ุฌูˆู†: ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุฑุคูŠุฉ ุณุชุฉ ุฅู„ู‰ ุนุดุฑุฉ ุฎูŠูˆุท ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ ุชุชุฌู…ุนู ู…ุนุงู‹.
09:29
I'll just list a couple of them.
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ุณุฃุฐูƒุฑู ุนุฏุฏู‹ุง ู…ู†ู‡ู….
09:31
So in America, one of the big -- actually, America and Europe --
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ููŠ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุงุŒ ุฃุญุฏู ุฃูƒุจุฑ -- ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุนุŒ ููŠ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุง ูˆุฃูˆุฑูˆุจุง --
09:35
one of the biggest ones is World War II.
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ุฃุญุฏู ุฃูƒุจุฑ ุงู„ู…ูˆุงุถูŠุน ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุซุงู†ูŠุฉ.
09:37
There's interesting research from Joe Henrich and others
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุญุซ ู…ุซูŠุฑ ู„ู„ุฅู‡ุชู…ุงู… ู…ู† "ุฌูˆ ู‡ูŠู†ุฑุชุด" ูˆุขุฎุฑูŠู†
09:40
that says if your country was at war,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู†ุช ุฏูˆู„ุชูƒู… ููŠ ุญุงู„ุฉ ุญุฑุจ
09:42
especially when you were young,
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ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูƒู†ุชู… ุตุบุงุฑ ุงู„ุณู† ุฎุงุตุฉุŒ
09:44
then we test you 30 years later in a commons dilemma
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ุณู†ู‚ูˆู… ุจุฅู…ุชุญุงู†ูƒู… ุจุนุฏ 30 ุณู†ุฉ ููŠ ู…ุฃุณุงุฉ ุงู„ู…ุดุงุนุงุช ุงู„ู…ุดุชุฑูƒุฉ
09:47
or a prisoner's dilemma,
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ุงูˆ ู…ุนุถู„ุฉ ุงู„ุณุฌู†ุงุกุŒ
09:49
you're more cooperative.
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ุณุชูƒูˆู†ูˆุง ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุชุนุงูˆู†ู‹ุง.
09:50
Because of our tribal nature, if you're --
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ุจุณุจุจ ุทุจูŠุนุชู†ุง ุงู„ู‚ุจู„ูŠุฉุŒ ุฅุฐุง ูƒู†ุชู… --
09:53
my parents were teenagers during World War II,
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ูƒุงู† ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู‘ ููŠ ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉ ุงู„ู…ุฑุงู‡ู‚ุฉ ุฎู„ุงู„ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุซุงู†ูŠุฉุŒ
09:56
and they would go out looking for scraps of aluminum
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ูˆูƒุงู†ูˆุง ูŠุฎุฑุฌูˆู† ู„ู„ุจุญุซ ุนู† ู‚ุตุงุตุงุช ุงู„ุฃู„ู…ู†ูŠูˆู…
09:59
to help the war effort.
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ู„ู„ู…ุณุงุนุฏุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ู…ุฌู‡ูˆุฏ ุงู„ุญุฑุจูŠ.
10:00
I mean, everybody pulled together.
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ุฃู‚ุตุฏูุŒ ุงู†ุณุญุจ ุงู„ุฌู…ูŠุน ู…ุนู‹ุง.
10:02
And so then these people go on,
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ูˆุจุนุฏ ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ุถู‰ ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู‚ุฏู…ู‹ุงุŒ
10:04
they rise up through business and government,
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ูˆุงุฒุฏุงุฏูˆุง ุฎู„ุงู„ ุงู„ุฃุนู…ุงู„ ุงู„ุชุฌุงุฑูŠุฉ ูˆุงู„ุญูƒูˆู…ุฉุŒ
10:06
they take leadership positions.
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ูˆุชู‚ู„ุฏูˆุง ู…ู†ุงุตุจ ู‚ูŠุงุฏูŠุฉ.
10:08
They're really good at compromise and cooperation.
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ูˆูƒุงู†ูˆุง ุฌูŠุฏูŠู† ููŠ ุงู„ู…ุณุงูˆู…ุฉ ูˆุงู„ุชุนุงูˆู†.
10:11
They all retire by the '90s.
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ูˆุชู‚ุงุนุฏูˆุง ุจุญู„ูˆู„ุฉ ุณู†ูˆุงุช ุงู„ุชุณุนูŠู†ูŠุงุช ู…ู† ุงู„ู‚ุฑู† ุงู„ู…ุงุถูŠ
10:13
So we're left with baby boomers by the end of the '90s.
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ูˆูƒู†ุง ูŠุณุงุฑูŠูŠู† ู…ุน ุทูุฑุฉ ุงู„ู…ูˆุงู„ูŠุฏ ู…ุน ู†ู‡ุงูŠุฉ ุณู†ูˆุงุช ุงู„ุชุณุนูŠู†ูŠุงุช ู…ู† ุงู„ู‚ุฑู† ุงู„ู…ุงุถูŠ.
10:17
And their youth was spent fighting each other within each country,
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ูˆู…ุถู‰ ุตุบุงุฑู‡ู… ูŠู‚ุงุชู„ูˆู† ุจุนุถู‡ู… ุงู„ุจุนุถ ุถู…ู† ุญุฏูˆุฏ ูƒู„ ุฏูˆู„ุฉ
10:21
in 1968 and afterwards.
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ููŠ ุนุงู… 1968 ูˆุจุนุฏ ุฐู„ูƒ.
10:22
The loss of the World War II generation, "The Greatest Generation,"
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ุฎุณุงุฑุฉ ุฌูŠู„ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุซุงู†ูŠุฉ ุงู„ู…ุณู…ู‰ "ุงู„ุฌูŠู„ ุงู„ุฃุนุธู…"ุŒ
10:26
is huge.
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ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ ุฌุฏู‹ุง.
10:28
So that's one.
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ู‡ุฐุง ุณุจุจ ูˆุงุญุฏ.
10:30
Another, in America, is the purification of the two parties.
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ุงู„ุขุฎุฑุŒ ููŠ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุงุŒ ุชุทู‡ูŠุฑ ุงู„ุญุฒุจูŠู† ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠูŠู†.
10:33
There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.
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ูƒุงู† ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ุงู„ุญุฒุจ ุงู„ุฌู…ู‡ูˆุฑูŠ ุงู„ุชุญุฑุฑูŠ ูˆุงู„ุญุฒุจ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ู‚ุฑุงุทูŠ ุงู„ู…ุญุงูุธ.
ูƒุงู† ู„ุฏู‰ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุง ููŠ ู…ู†ุชุตู ุงู„ู‚ุฑู† ุงู„ุนุดุฑูŠู† ุซู†ุงุฆูŠุฉ ุงู„ุญุฒุจูŠู† ุญู‚ู‹ุง.
10:37
So America had a mid-20th century that was really bipartisan.
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10:40
But because of a variety of factors that started things moving,
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ู„ูƒู† ูˆุจุณุจุจ ุนูˆุงู…ู„ ู…ุชู†ูˆุนุฉ ุจุฏุฃุช ุงู„ุฃู…ูˆุฑ ุชุชุญุฑูƒุŒ
10:44
by the 90's, we had a purified liberal party and conservative party.
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ู…ุน ุญู„ูˆู„ ุณู†ูˆุงุช ุงู„ุชุณุนูŠู†ูŠุงุชุŒ ุฃุตุจุญ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ุญุฒุจ ุชุญุฑุฑูŠ ูˆุญุฒุจ ู…ุญุงูุธ.
ูˆุงู„ุฃู†ุŒ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ูƒู„ู ู…ู† ุงู„ุญุฒุจูŠู† ู…ุฎุชู„ููˆู† ุญู‚ู‹ุงุŒ
10:48
So now, the people in either party really are different,
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10:50
and we really don't want our children to marry them,
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ูˆู„ุง ู†ุฑูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุฃุทูุงู„ู†ุง ุงู„ุชุฒุงูˆุฌ ู…ุนู‡ู… ุญู‚ู‹ุงุŒ
ุงู„ุฐูŠุŒ ูˆููŠ ุณู†ูˆุงุช ุงู„ุณุชูŠู†ูŠุงุชุŒ ู„ู… ูŠูƒู† ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ู…ู‡ู…ุงู‹ ุฌุฏู‹ุง.
10:53
which, in the '60s, didn't matter very much.
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10:55
So, the purification of the parties.
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ุชู… ุชุทู‡ูŠุฑ ุงู„ุญุฒุจูŠู†.
10:57
Third is the internet and, as I said,
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ุงู„ุณุจุจ ุงู„ุซุงู„ุซ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฑู†ุชุŒ ูˆูƒู…ุง ู‚ู„ุชุŒ
10:59
it's just the most amazing stimulant for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.
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ุฅู†ู‡ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุงู„ุญูˆุงูุฒ ุฑูˆุนุฉ ู„ู…ุง ูŠุญุฏุซู ู„ุงุญู‚ู‹ุง ู„ู„ุชููƒูŠุฑ ุงู„ู…ู†ุทู‚ูŠ ูˆุงู„ุชุฌุฑูŠุญ.
11:04
CA: The tone of what's happening on the internet now is quite troubling.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ู„ู‡ุฌุฉ ู…ุง ูŠุฌุฑูŠ ุนู„ู‰ ุดุจูƒุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฑู†ุช ู‡ูŠ ุงู„ุขู† ู…ู‚ู„ู‚ุฉ ุฌุฏู‹ุง.
11:09
I just did a quick search on Twitter about the election
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ู„ู‚ุฏ ู‚ู…ุชู ุจุนู…ู„ ุจุญุซ ุณุฑูŠุน ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุชูˆูŠุชุฑ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช
11:12
and saw two tweets next to each other.
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ูˆุฑุฃูŠุชู ุชุบุฑูŠุฏุชูŠู† ุจุฌุงู†ุจ ุจุนุถู‡ู…ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถ.
11:15
One, against a picture of racist graffiti:
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ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ู‰ุŒ ุถุฏ ุตูˆุฑุฉ ู…ู† ูƒุชุงุจุงุช ุนู†ุตุฑูŠุฉ:
11:20
"This is disgusting!
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"ู‡ุฐุง ู…ุซูŠุฑูŒ ู„ู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ!
11:21
Ugliness in this country, brought to us by #Trump."
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ุชู… ุฌู„ุจ ุงู„ู‚ุจุญ ู„ู†ุง ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุจู„ุงุฏ ุนู† ุทุฑูŠู‚ # ุชุฑู…ุจ".
11:25
And then the next one is:
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ูˆุซู… ุงู„ุชุบุฑูŠุฏุฉ ุงู„ู…ุฌุงูˆุฑุฉ ู‡ูŠ:
11:27
"Crooked Hillary dedication page. Disgusting!"
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"ุตูุญุฉ ุงู„ุชูุงู†ูŠ ู„ู„ู…ุญุชุงู„ุฉ ุนุฏูŠู…ุฉ ุงู„ุถู…ูŠุฑ ู‡ูŠู„ุงุฑูŠ. ู…ุซูŠุฑ ู„ู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ!"
11:31
So this idea of "disgust" is troubling to me.
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ูููƒุฑุฉ "ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ" ู‡ูŠ ู…ู‚ู„ู‚ุฉ ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ู„ูŠ
11:35
Because you can have an argument or a disagreement about something,
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ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠู…ูƒู† ุฃู† ูŠูƒูˆู† ู„ุฏูŠูƒู… ุฌุฏุงู„ ุฃูˆ ุฎู„ุงู ุญูˆู„ ุดูŠุก ู…ุงุŒ
11:38
you can get angry at someone.
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒู… ุฃู† ุชุบุถุจูˆุง ุนู„ู‰ ุดุฎุต ู…ุง.
11:41
Disgust, I've heard you say, takes things to a much deeper level.
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ู…ุซูŠุฑ ู„ู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฑ! ุณู…ุนุชูƒ ุชู‚ูˆู„ุŒ ุงู†ู‡ุง ุชุฃุฎุฐู ุงู„ุฃู…ูˆุฑ ู„ู…ุณุชูˆู‰ ุฃุนู…ู‚ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒ.
11:44
JH: That's right. Disgust is different.
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ุฌูˆู†: ู‡ุฐุง ุตุญูŠุญ. ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ู‡ูˆ ู…ุฎุชู„ู
11:46
Anger -- you know, I have kids.
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ุงู„ุบุถุจ -- ูƒู…ุง ุชุนู„ู…ุŒ ุนู†ุฏูŠ ุฃุทูุงู„.
11:48
They fight 10 times a day,
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ุฅู†ู‡ู… ูŠุชุดุงุฌุฑูˆู† 10 ู…ุฑุงุช ูŠูˆู…ูŠู‹ุงุŒ
11:50
and they love each other 30 times a day.
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ูˆูŠุญุจูˆู† ุจุนุถู‡ู… ุงู„ุจุนุถ 30 ู…ุฑุฉ ูŠูˆู…ูŠู‹ุง.
11:52
You just go back and forth: you get angry, you're not angry;
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ุฃุนู†ูŠุŒ ุชุชุฐุจุฐุจ ู…ุดุงุนุฑูƒ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุถุฏู‘ูŠู† ุชุบุถุจุŒ ุซู… ู„ุง ุชุบุถุจ
ุชุบุถุจุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุชุบุถุจ.
11:55
you're angry, you're not angry.
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11:56
But disgust is different.
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ู„ูƒู† ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ู‡ูŠ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ.
11:58
Disgust paints the person as subhuman, monstrous,
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ูŠุตูˆุฑ ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ุงู„ุดุฎุต ูƒุฏูˆู† ุงู„ุจุดุฑ ูˆู‚ุจูŠุญุŒ
12:02
deformed, morally deformed.
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ูˆู…ุดูˆู‡ ุจุบูŠุถุŒ ูˆู…ุดูˆู‡ ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠู‹ุง.
12:04
Disgust is like indelible ink.
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ูŠุดุจู‡ ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ุงู„ุญุจุฑ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ู„ุง ูŠูู…ุญู‰.
12:07
There's research from John Gottman on marital therapy.
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุญุซ ู…ู† "ุฌูˆู† ุฌูˆุชู…ุงู†" ุจุดุฃู† ู…ุนุงู„ุฌุฉ ุงู„ุฃุฒูˆุงุฌ.
12:11
If you look at the faces -- if one of the couple shows disgust or contempt,
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ุฅุฐุง ู†ุธุฑุชู… ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุฌูˆู‡ -- ุฅุฐุง ุฃุธู‡ุฑ ุฃุญุฏู ุงู„ุฒูˆุฌูŠู† ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ุฃูˆ ุงู„ุฅุญุชู‚ุงุฑุŒ
12:16
that's a predictor that they're going to get divorced soon,
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ูู‡ุฐุง ูŠุดูŠุฑู ุจุฃู†ู‡ู…ุง ุฐุงู‡ุจุงู† ู„ู„ุญุตูˆู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุทู„ุงู‚ ู‚ุฑูŠุจู‹ุงุŒ
12:19
whereas if they show anger, that doesn't predict anything,
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ุจูŠู†ู…ุง ุฅุฐุง ุฃุธู‡ุฑุง ุงู„ุบุถุจุŒ ูู„ุง ูŠุดูŠุฑู ุฐู„ูƒ ุฅู„ู‰ ุฃูŠ ุดูŠุกุŒ
12:22
because if you deal with anger well, it actually is good.
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ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ุฅุฐุง ุชุนุงู…ู„ุชู… ู…ุน ุงู„ุบุถุจ ูƒู…ุง ูŠุฌุจุŒ ูุฅู†ู‡ ุฌูŠุฏ ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ.
12:25
So this election is different.
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช ู‡ูŠ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ.
12:26
Donald Trump personally uses the word "disgust" a lot.
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ูŠุณุชุฎุฏู…ู "ุฏูˆู†ุงู„ุฏ ุชุฑู…ุจ" ุดุฎุตูŠู‹ุง ูƒู„ู…ุฉ "ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ" ูƒุซูŠุฑู‹ุง.
12:30
He's very germ-sensitive, so disgust does matter a lot --
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ุฅู†ู‡ ุญุณุงุณ ุฌุฏู‹ุง ู„ู„ุฌุฑุงุซูŠู…ุŒ ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ูŠู‡ู…ู ูƒุซูŠุฑู‹ุง --
12:33
more for him, that's something unique to him --
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ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ุฅู„ูŠู‡ุŒ ู‡ุฐุง ุดูŠุก ูุฑูŠุฏ ู…ู† ู†ูˆุนู‡ ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ุฅู„ูŠู‡ --
12:37
but as we demonize each other more,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ู†ุฌุฑุญู ุจุนุถู†ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถ ุฃูƒุซุฑุŒ
12:40
and again, through the Manichaean worldview,
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ูˆู…ุฑุฉู‹ ุฃุฎุฑู‰ุŒ ุฎู„ุงู„ ุงู„ู†ุธุฑุฉ ุงู„ู…ุงู†ูˆูŠุฉุŒ
12:43
the idea that the world is a battle between good and evil
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ูุงู„ููƒุฑุฉ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฆู„ุฉ ุฃู† ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ู‡ูˆ ู…ุนุฑูƒุฉ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุฎูŠุฑ ูˆุงู„ุดุฑ
12:46
as this has been ramping up,
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ู‚ุฏ ุงุฒุฏุงุฏุช ูˆุชูƒุซูุชุŒ
12:47
we're more likely not just to say they're wrong or I don't like them,
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ูู†ุญู†ู ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃุฑุญุฌ ู„ุณู†ุง ูู‚ุท ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ุฎุงุทุฆูˆู† ุฃูˆ ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ู„ุง ุฃุญุจู‡ู…ุŒ
12:51
but we say they're evil, they're satanic,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ุงู„ุดุฑ ูˆุฃู†ู‡ู… ุงู„ุดูŠุงุทูŠู†ุŒ
12:53
they're disgusting, they're revolting.
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ุฅู†ู‡ู… ู…ุซูŠุฑูˆู† ู„ู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ูˆุฅู†ู‡ู… ู…ู‚ุฒุฒูˆู†.
12:55
And then we want nothing to do with them.
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ูˆู„ุง ู†ุฑูŠุฏู ู„ุงุญู‚ู‹ุง ุงู„ุชุนุงู…ู„ ู…ุนู‡ู… ุจุดูŠุก.
12:58
And that's why I think we're seeing it, for example, on campus now.
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ูˆู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุณุจุจ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู†ู†ุง ู†ุดู‡ุฏู ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ูŠูˆู… ููŠ ุญุฑู… ุงู„ุฌุงู…ุนุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ุณุจูŠู„ ุงู„ู…ุซุงู„ุŒ
13:02
We're seeing more the urge to keep people off campus,
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ู†ุฑู‰ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุงู„ุฑุบุจุฉ ููŠ ุจู‚ุงุก ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุฎุงุฑุฌ ุงู„ุญุฑู… ุงู„ุฌุงู…ุนูŠุŒ
13:04
silence them, keep them away.
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ูˆุฅุณูƒุงุชู‡ู…ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุฅุจู‚ุงุก ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ุจุนูŠุฏู‹ุง.
13:06
I'm afraid that this whole generation of young people,
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ุฃุฎุงูู ุฃู† ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุฌูŠู„ ุงู„ูƒุงู…ู„ ู…ู† ุงู„ุดุจุงุจ ุงู„ุตุบุงุฑุŒ
13:09
if their introduction to politics involves a lot of disgust,
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ุฅุฐุง ุชู… ุชุนุฑูŠูู‡ู… ุจุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุชุถู…ู† ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒุŒ
13:13
they're not going to want to be involved in politics as they get older.
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ู„ู† ูŠุฑุบุจูˆู† ููŠ ุงู„ู…ุดุงุฑูƒุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠูƒุจุฑูˆู†.
13:17
CA: So how do we deal with that?
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ู„ู‡ุฐุง ูƒูŠู ู„ู†ุง ุงู„ุชุนุงู…ู„ ู…ุน ู‡ุฐุงุŸ
13:19
Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?
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ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ. ูƒูŠู ู„ู†ุง ุงู„ู‚ุถุงุก ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒุŸ
13:24
JH: You can't do it with reasons.
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ุฌูˆู†: ู„ุง ุชุณุชุทูŠุนูˆู† ุงู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจุฐู„ูƒ ุจุงู„ุฃุณุจุงุจ.
13:27
I think ...
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ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ...
13:30
I studied disgust for many years, and I think about emotions a lot.
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ู„ู‚ุฏ ุฏุฑุณุชู ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ู„ุนุฏุฉ ุณู†ูˆุงุชุŒ ูˆุฃููƒุฑู ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุนูˆุงุทู ูƒุซูŠุฑู‹ุง.
13:33
And I think that the opposite of disgust is actually love.
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู† ุนูƒุณ ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุญุจ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน.
13:37
Love is all about, like ...
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ุงู„ุญุจ ู‡ูˆ ูƒู„ ุดูŠุกุŒ ู…ุซู„...
13:41
Disgust is closing off, borders.
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ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฅู†ุนุฒุงู„ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุญุฏูˆุฏ.
13:43
Love is about dissolving walls.
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ุงู„ุญุจ ู‡ูˆ ู‡ุฏู… ุงู„ุฌุฏุฑุงู†.
13:47
So personal relationships, I think,
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ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู† ุงู„ุนู„ุงู‚ุงุช ุงู„ุดุฎุตูŠุฉุŒ
13:49
are probably the most powerful means we have.
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ู‡ูŠ ุฑุจู…ุง ุฃู‚ูˆู‰ ุงู„ูˆุณุงุฆู„ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง.
13:53
You can be disgusted by a group of people,
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒู… ุงู„ุดุนูˆุฑ ุจุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ ุญูŠุงู„ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณุŒ
13:56
but then you meet a particular person
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ุชู‚ุงุจู„ู ู„ุงุญู‚ู‹ุง ุดุฎุต ู…ุนูŠู†
13:57
and you genuinely discover that they're lovely.
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ูˆุชูƒุชุดูู ุจุตุฏู‚ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ุฑุงุฆุนูˆู† ู…ุญุจูˆู†.
14:00
And then gradually that chips away or changes your category as well.
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ูˆุชู†ุณุญุจู ุชุฏุฑูŠุฌูŠู‹ุงุŒ ุฃูˆ ุชุบูŠุฑ ุชุตู†ูŠููƒ ูƒุฐู„ูƒ.
14:06
The tragedy is, Americans used to be much more mixed up in the their towns
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ุงู„ู…ุฃุณุงุฉ ู‡ูŠุŒ ุฅุนุชุงุฏ ุงู„ุงู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠูˆู† ู„ู„ุฅุฎุชู„ุงุท ุฃูƒุซุฑ ููŠ ู…ุฏู†ู‡ู…
14:12
by left-right or politics.
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ุนู† ุทุฑูŠู‚ ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ ูˆุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู† ุฃูˆ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ.
14:14
And now that it's become this great moral divide,
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ูˆุงู„ุขู† ุงุตุจุญ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู… ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠ ูƒุจูŠุฑุŒ
14:16
there's a lot of evidence that we're moving to be near people
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃุฏู„ุฉ ุฃู†ู†ุง ู†ุชุญุฑูƒ ู„ู†ูƒูˆู† ุจุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ
14:19
who are like us politically.
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‡ู… ู…ุซู„ู†ุง ุณูŠุงุณูŠู‹ุง.
14:21
It's harder to find somebody who's on the other side.
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ู…ู† ุงู„ุตุนูˆุจุฉ ุจู…ูƒุงู† ุฅูŠุฌุงุฏ ุดุฎุต ู…ู† ุงู„ุทุฑู ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ.
14:23
So they're over there, they're far away.
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ุฅู†ู‡ู… ู‡ู†ุงูƒุŒ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุนูŠุฏู‹ุง.
14:26
It's harder to get to know them.
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ูˆู…ู† ุงู„ุตุนูˆุจุฉ ุจู…ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุชุนุฑู ุนู„ูŠู‡ู….
14:27
CA: What would you say to someone or say to Americans,
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ู…ุงุฐุง ุชู‚ูˆู„ ู„ุดุฎุต ู…ุง ุฃูˆ ู„ู„ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠูŠู†ุŒ
14:31
people generally,
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ู„ู„ู†ุงุณ ุนุงู…ุฉู‹ุŒ
14:33
about what we should understand about each other
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ุญูˆู„ ู…ุง ุนู„ูŠู†ุง ุฃู† ู†ูู‡ู…ู‡ ุนู† ุจุนุถู†ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถ
14:35
that might help us rethink for a minute
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ูˆุงู„ุฐูŠ ู‚ุฏ ูŠุณุงุนุฏู†ุง ููŠ ุฅุนุงุฏุฉ ุงู„ุชููƒูŠุฑ ู„ุฏู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ
14:39
this "disgust" instinct?
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ุญูˆู„ ุบุฑูŠุฒุฉ "ุงู„ุฅุดู…ุฆุฒุงุฒ" ู‡ุฐู‡ุŸ
14:42
JH: Yes.
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ุฌูˆู†: ู†ุนู….
14:43
A really important thing to keep in mind --
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ุงู„ุดูŠุก ุงู„ู…ู‡ู… ุญู‚ู‹ุง ุฃู† ู†ุถุน ููŠ ุฅุนุชุจุงุฑู†ุง --
14:45
there's research by political scientist Alan Abramowitz,
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุญุซ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ "ุขู„ุงู† ุฃุจุฑุงู…ูˆููŠุชุด"ุŒ
14:50
showing that American democracy is increasingly governed
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ูŠุธู‡ุฑ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠุฉ ู‡ูŠ ู…ุญูƒูˆู…ุฉ ุจุดูƒู„ ู…ุชุฒุงูŠุฏ
14:54
by what's called "negative partisanship."
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ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ู…ุง ูŠุณู…ู‰ "ุณู„ุจูŠุฉ ุซู†ุงุฆูŠุฉ ุงู„ุญุฒุจูŠู†".
14:56
That means you think, OK there's a candidate,
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ูˆู‡ุฐุง ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุฃู†ูƒู… ุชุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู†ุŒ ุญุณู†ู‹ุง ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ู…ุฑุดุญุŒ
15:00
you like the candidate, you vote for the candidate.
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ุชุญุจูˆู† ุงู„ู…ุฑุดุญุŒ ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒู… ุงู„ุชุตูˆูŠุช ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ุฑุดุญ.
15:02
But with the rise of negative advertising
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ู…ุน ุชุฒุงูŠุฏ ุงู„ุฏุนุงูŠุฉ ุงู„ุณู„ุจูŠุฉ
15:04
and social media and all sorts of other trends,
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ูˆูˆุณุงุฆู„ ุงู„ุชูˆุงุตู„ ุงู„ุฅุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠ ูˆูƒู„ ุฃู†ูˆุงุน ุงู„ุฅุชุฌุงู‡ุงุช ุงู„ุฃุฎุฑู‰ุŒ
15:06
increasingly, the way elections are done
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ุจุดูƒู„ ู…ุชุฒุงูŠุฏุŒ ูุงู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชู…ุช ุจู‡ุง ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช
15:08
is that each side tries to make the other side so horrible, so awful,
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ู‡ูŠ ูŠุญุงูˆู„ ูƒู„ ุฌุงู†ุจ ุฌุนู„ ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ ู…ุฑูˆุน ุฌุฏู‹ุงุŒ ูˆุฑู‡ูŠุจ ุฌุฏู‹ุงุŒ
15:12
that you'll vote for my guy by default.
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ูˆุฃู†ูƒู… ุณุชุตูˆุชูˆู† ู„ู…ุฑุดุญูŠ ุฅูุชุฑุงุถูŠู‹ุง.
15:15
And so as we more and more vote against the other side
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ูˆูƒู„ู…ุง ุตูˆุชู†ุง ุฃูƒุซุฑ ูˆุฃูƒุซุฑ ุถุฏ ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ
15:18
and not for our side,
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ูˆู„ูŠุณ ู„ุตุงู„ุญู†ุงุŒ
15:19
you have to keep in mind that if people are on the left,
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ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุฃู† ุชุถุนูˆุง ููŠ ุฅุนุชุจุงุฑูƒู… ุจุฃู†ู‡ ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ูŠุณุงุฑูŠูˆู†ุŒ
15:25
they think, "Well, I used to think that Republicans were bad,
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ูุฅู†ู‡ู… ูŠููƒุฑูˆู†ุŒ "ุญุณู†ู‹ุงุŒ ูƒู†ุชู ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู† ุงู„ุฌู…ู‡ูˆุฑูŠูŠู† ุณูŠุฆูˆู†ุŒ
15:28
but now Donald Trump proves it.
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ู„ูƒู† ุงู„ุขู† ูŠุซุจุชู ุฏูˆู†ุงู„ุฏ ุชุฑู…ุจ ุฐู„ูƒ.
15:29
And now every Republican, I can paint with all the things
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ูˆุงู„ุขู† ูƒู„ ุฌู…ู‡ูˆุฑูŠุŒ ุฃุณุชุทูŠุน ุฃู† ุฃุชุตูˆุฑ ู…ุน ูƒู„ ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก
15:32
that I think about Trump."
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุญูˆู„ ุชุฑู…ุจ."
15:33
And that's not necessarily true.
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ูˆู„ูŠุณ ู‡ุฐุง ุตุญูŠุญู‹ุง ุจุงู„ุถุฑูˆุฑุฉ.
15:35
They're generally not very happy with their candidate.
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ุฅู†ู‡ู… ู„ูŠุณูˆุง ุณุนูŠุฏูŠู† ุจุดูƒู„ ุนุงู… ู…ุน ู…ุฑุดุญู‡ู….
15:38
This is the most negative partisanship election in American history.
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ู‡ุฐู‡ ู‡ูŠ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช ุงู„ุชุญุฒุจูŠุฉ ุงู„ุณู„ุจูŠุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุชุงุฑูŠุฎ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠ.
15:43
So you have to first separate your feelings about the candidate
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ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ููŠ ุงู„ุจุฏุงูŠุฉ ูุตู„ ุดุนูˆุฑูƒู… ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ู…ุฑุดุญ
15:47
from your feelings about the people who are given a choice.
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ุนู† ุดุนูˆุฑูƒู… ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุนุทูˆู† ุงู„ุฎูŠุงุฑ.
15:50
And then you have to realize that,
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ูˆุซู… ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ูู‡ู… ุฐู„ูƒุŒ
ู„ุฃู†ู†ุง ุฌู…ูŠุนู‹ุง ู†ุนูŠุด ููŠ ุนุงู„ู… ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠ ู…ู†ูุตู„ --
15:53
because we all live in a separate moral world --
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ุงู„ุฅุณุชุนุงุฑุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃุณุชุฎุฏู…ู‡ุง ููŠ ุงู„ูƒุชุงุจ ู‡ูŠ ุฃู†ู‡ ุชู… ุชุทูˆูŠู‚ู†ุง ุฌู…ูŠุนู‹ุง ููŠ "ุงู„ู…ุตููˆูุฉ"
15:55
the metaphor I use in the book is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"
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15:59
or each moral community is a matrix, a consensual hallucination.
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ุฃูˆ ูƒู„ ู…ุฌุชู…ุน ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠ ู‡ูˆ ู…ุตููˆูุฉ ุจุญุฏ ุฐุงุชู‡ุŒ ู‡ู„ูˆุณุฉ ุจุงู„ุชุฑุงุถูŠ.
16:02
And so if you're within the blue matrix,
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ูˆู„ู‡ุฐุง ุฅุฐุง ูƒู†ุชู… ุถู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุตููˆูุฉ ุงู„ูƒุฆูŠุจุฉุŒ
16:04
everything's completely compelling that the other side --
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ููƒู„ ุดูŠุก ุฎุงุถุน ุชู…ุงู…ุงู‹ ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุทุฑู ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ --
16:08
they're troglodytes, they're racists, they're the worst people in the world,
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ู‡ู… ุณุงูƒู†ูˆ ุงู„ูƒู‡ูˆู ูˆุนู†ุตุฑูŠูˆู† ุŒ ูˆู‡ู… ุฃุณูˆุฃ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ุŒ
16:11
and you have all the facts to back that up.
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ูˆู„ุฏูŠูƒู… ูƒู„ ุงู„ุญู‚ุงุฆู‚ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุฏุนู… ุฐู„ูƒ.
16:13
But somebody in the next house from yours
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ุดุฎุต ููŠ ุงู„ุจูŠุช ุงู„ู…ุฌุงูˆุฑ ู„ุจูŠุชูƒู…
16:16
is living in a different moral matrix.
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ูŠุนูŠุด ููŠ ู…ุตููˆูุฉ ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠุฉ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ.
16:18
They live in a different video game,
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ุฅู†ู‡ู… ูŠุนูŠุดูˆู† ููŠ ู„ุนุจุฉ ููŠุฏูŠูˆ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉุŒ
16:20
and they see a completely different set of facts.
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ูˆูŠุฑูˆู† ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุญู‚ุงุฆู‚ ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ ุชู…ุงู…ู‹ุง.
16:22
And each one sees different threats to the country.
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ูˆูŠุฑู‰ ูƒู„ ุดุฎุต ุชู‡ุฏูŠุฏุงุช ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ ุญูŠุงู„ ุงู„ุจู„ุงุฏ.
16:25
And what I've found from being in the middle
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ูˆู…ุง ูˆุฌุฏุชู‡ ู…ู† ูƒูˆู†ูŠ ููŠ ุงู„ู…ู†ุชุตู
16:27
and trying to understand both sides is: both sides are right.
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ูˆู…ุญุงูˆู„ุงู‹ ูู‡ู… ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจูŠู† ู‡ูˆ ุฃู†: ูƒู„ุง ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจูŠู† ุนู„ู‰ ุญู‚.
16:30
There are a lot of threats to this country,
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ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชู‡ุฏูŠุฏุงุช ู„ู„ุจู„ุงุฏุŒ
16:32
and each side is constitutionally incapable of seeing them all.
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ูˆูƒู„ ุฌุงู†ุจ ุบูŠุฑ ู‚ุงุฏุฑ ุฏุณุชูˆุฑูŠู‹ุง ุนู„ู‰ ุฑุคูŠุชู‡ุง ุฌู…ูŠุนู‹ุง.
16:36
CA: So, are you saying that we almost need a new type of empathy?
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุฅุฐู‹ุง ุฃู†ุช ุชู‚ูˆู„ ุจุฃู†ู†ุง ุจุญุงุฌุฉ ุชู‚ุฑูŠุจู‹ุง ุฅู„ู‰ ู†ูˆุน ุฌุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุนุงุทูุŸ
16:43
Empathy is traditionally framed as:
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ุชู… ุชุนุฑูŠู ุงู„ุชุนุงุทู ุชู‚ูŠู„ูŠุฏูŠุง ูƒุงู„ุชุงู„ูŠ:
16:45
"Oh, I feel your pain. I can put myself in your shoes."
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"ุฃูˆู‡ุŒ ุฃู†ุง ุฃุดุนุฑู ุจุขู„ุงู…ูƒ. ูˆุงุณุชุทูŠุน ุฃู† ุฃุถุน ู†ูุณูŠ ู…ูƒุงู†ูƒ."
16:48
And we apply it to the poor, the needy, the suffering.
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ูˆุทุจู‚ู†ุง ุฐู„ูƒ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ูู‚ุฑุงุก ูˆุงู„ู…ุญุชุงุฌูŠู† ูˆุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุนุงู†ูˆู†.
16:52
We don't usually apply it to people who we feel as other,
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ูˆู„ุง ู†ุณุชุทูŠุน ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงุฏุฉ ุชุทุจูŠู‚ ุฐู„ูƒ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู†ุดุนุฑ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ูƒุงู„ุขุฎุฑูŠู†ุŒ
16:55
or we're disgusted by.
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ุฃูˆ ุฃู†ู†ุง ู†ุดู…ุฆุฒู ู…ู†ู‡ู….
16:57
JH: No. That's right.
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ุฌูˆู†: ู„ุงุŒ ู‡ุฐุง ุตุญูŠุญ.
16:58
CA: What would it look like to build that type of empathy?
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ูƒูŠู ุณูŠุจุฏูˆ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑ ู„ุจู†ุงุก ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุนุงุทูุŸ
17:04
JH: Actually, I think ...
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ุฌูˆู†: ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุนุŒ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ...
17:06
Empathy is a very, very hot topic in psychology,
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ุงู„ุชุนุงุทู ู‡ูˆ ู…ูˆุถูˆุน ู…ุซูŠุฑ ุฌุฏู‹ุง ุฌุฏู‹ุง ููŠ ุนู„ู… ุงู„ู†ูุณุŒ
17:08
and it's a very popular word on the left in particular.
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ูˆุงู„ุชุนุงุทู ูƒู„ู…ุฉ ุดุงุฆุนุฉ ุฌุฏู‹ุง ููŠ ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุฎุตูˆุต.
17:11
Empathy is a good thing, and empathy for the preferred classes of victims.
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ุงู„ุชุนุงุทู ู‡ูˆ ุดูŠุก ุฌูŠุฏุŒ ูˆุงู„ุชุนุงุทู ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ ุทุจู‚ุงุช ู…ูุถู„ุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุถุญุงูŠุง.
17:15
So it's important to empathize
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูู…ู† ุงู„ู…ู‡ู… ุงู„ุชุฃูƒูŠุฏ
17:16
with the groups that we on the left think are so important.
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ู…ุน ุงู„ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุงุช ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ุนุชู‚ุฏู ู†ุญู†ู ููŠ ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ ุฃู†ู‡ุง ู…ู‡ู…ุฉ ุฌุฏู‹ุง.
17:19
That's easy to do, because you get points for that.
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ู‡ุฐุง ุณู‡ู„ ู„ู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจู‡ุŒ ู„ุฃู†ู†ุง ู†ุญุตู„ู ุนู„ู‰ ู†ู‚ุงุท ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ู‡.
17:22
But empathy really should get you points if you do it when it's hard to do.
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ู„ูƒู† ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ูŠู…ู†ุญูƒู… ุงู„ุชุนุงุทู ุงู„ู†ู‚ุงุท ุฅุฐุง ู‚ู…ุชู… ุจู‡ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูŠูƒูˆู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุตุนุจ ุงู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจู‡.
17:26
And, I think ...
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ...
17:28
You know, we had a long 50-year period of dealing with our race problems
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ุฃุชุนู„ู…ูˆู†ุŒ ูƒุงู† ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ูุชุฑุฉ ุทูˆูŠู„ุฉ ุชุนุงุฏู„ 50 ุณู†ุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุนุงู…ู„ ู…ุน ู…ุดุงูƒู„ู†ุง ุงู„ุนุฑู‚ูŠุฉ
17:33
and legal discrimination,
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ูˆุงู„ุชู…ูŠูŠุฒ ุงู„ู‚ุงู†ูˆู†ูŠุŒ
17:35
and that was our top priority for a long time
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ูˆูƒุงู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุฃู‡ู… ุฃูˆู„ูˆูŠุงุชู†ุง ู„ูุชุฑุฉ ุทูˆูŠู„ุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช
17:37
and it still is important.
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ูˆู…ุง ุฒุงู„ ู…ู‡ู…ู‹ุง.
17:39
But I think this year,
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุณู†ุฉ
17:40
I'm hoping it will make people see
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ุขู…ู„ู ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุณุชุฌุนู„ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุชุฑู‰
17:43
that we have an existential threat on our hands.
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ุจุฃู†ู‡ ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ุชู‡ุฏูŠุฏ ูˆุฌูˆุฏูŠ ููŠ ุฃูŠุฏูŠู†ุง.
17:45
Our left-right divide, I believe,
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ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู… ุงู„ูŠุณุงุฑ-ุงู„ูŠู…ูŠู†ุŒ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏูุŒ
17:48
is by far the most important divide we face.
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ุฃู†ู‡ ุฃู‡ู… ุฅู†ู‚ุณุงู… ูˆุงุฌู‡ู†ุงู‡ ุญุชู‰ ุงู„ุขู†.
17:50
We still have issues about race and gender and LGBT,
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ู…ุง ุฒุงู„ุช ู„ุฏูŠู†ุง ู‚ุถุงูŠุง ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุนุฑู‚ ูˆุงู„ุฌู†ุณ ูˆุงู„ู…ุซู„ูŠูŠู† ูˆุงู„ู…ุชุญูˆู„ูŠูŠู† ุฌู†ุณูŠู‹ุงุŒ
17:53
but this is the urgent need of the next 50 years,
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ู„ูƒู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ู‡ูŠ ุงู„ุญุงุฌุฉ ุงู„ู…ู„ู‘ุญุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุณู†ูˆุงุช ุงู„ุฎู…ุณูŠู† ุงู„ู‚ุงุฏู…ุฉุŒ
17:57
and things aren't going to get better on their own.
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ูˆู„ู† ุชุณูŠุฑู ุงู„ุฃู…ูˆุฑ ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃูุถู„ ู…ู† ุชู„ู‚ุงุก ุฐุงุชู‡ุง.
18:01
So we're going to need to do a lot of institutional reforms,
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ุณู†ุญุชุงุฌู ู„ู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฅุตู„ุงุญุงุช ุงู„ู…ุคุณู€ุณูŠุฉุŒ
18:03
and we could talk about that,
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ูˆูŠู…ูƒู†ู†ุง ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุญูˆู„ู‡ุงุŒ
18:05
but that's like a whole long, wonky conversation.
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ู„ูƒู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ู…ุญุงุฏุซุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชู‚ู„ุจุฉ ุงู„ูƒุงู…ู„ุฉ ุงู„ุทูˆูŠู„ุฉ
18:07
But I think it starts with people realizing that this is a turning point.
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏู ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุชุจุฏุฃ ู…ุน ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฏุฑูƒูˆู† ุฃู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ู‡ูŠ ู†ู‚ุทุฉ ุงู„ุชุญูˆู„.
18:11
And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.
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ูˆู†ุนู…ุŒ ู†ุญุชุงุฌู ุฅู„ู‰ ู†ูˆุน ุฌุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุนุงุทู.
18:14
We need to realize:
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ู†ุญุชุงุฌู ู„ุฅุฏุฑุงูƒ:
18:15
this is what our country needs,
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ุฃู† ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ู…ุง ุชุญุชุงุฌู‡ ุจู„ุงุฏู†ุงุŒ
18:17
and this is what you need if you don't want to --
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ูˆู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ู…ุง ุชุญุชุงุฌูˆู†ู‡ ุฅุฐุง ูƒู†ุชู… ู„ุง ุชุฑุบุจูˆู† ุจู‡ --
18:19
Raise your hand if you want to spend the next four years
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ุฅุฑูุนูˆุง ุฃูŠุฏูŠูƒู… ุฅุฐุง ูƒู†ุชู… ุชุฑุบุจูˆู† ููŠ ู‚ุถุงุก ุงู„ุงุฑุจุน ุณู†ูˆุงุช ุงู„ู‚ุงุฏู…ุฉ
18:22
as angry and worried as you've been for the last year -- raise your hand.
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ุบุงุถุจูˆู† ูˆู‚ู„ู‚ูˆู† ูƒู…ุง ูƒู†ุชู… ููŠ ุงู„ุณู†ุฉ ุงู„ุฃุฎูŠุฑุฉ-- ุฅุฑูุนูˆุง ุฃูŠุฏูŠูƒู….
18:26
So if you want to escape from this,
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ุฅุฐุง ุฑุบุจุชู… ููŠ ุงู„ู‡ุฑูˆุจ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐุงุŒ
18:27
read Buddha, read Jesus, read Marcus Aurelius.
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ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ู‚ุฑุงุกุฉ "ุจูˆุฐุง" ูˆ"ุงูŠุณูˆุน"ุŒ ูˆ"ู…ุงุฑูƒูˆุณ ุขูˆุฑูŠู„ูŠูˆุณ".
18:29
They have all kinds of great advice for how to drop the fear,
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ู„ุฏูŠู‡ู… ูƒู„ ุฃู†ูˆุงุน ุงู„ู†ุตุงุฆุญ ุงู„ุนุธูŠู…ุฉ ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ ุงู„ู‚ุถุงุก ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฎูˆูุŒ
18:35
reframe things,
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ูˆุฅุนุงุฏุฉ ุตูŠุงุบุฉ ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุกุŒ
18:36
stop seeing other people as your enemy.
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ูˆุงู„ุชูˆู‚ู ุนู† ุฑุคูŠุฉ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑูŠู† ูƒุฃุนุฏุงุก ู„ูƒู….
18:38
There's a lot of guidance in ancient wisdom for this kind of empathy.
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ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชูˆุฌูŠู‡ ููŠ ุงู„ุญูƒู…ุฉ ุงู„ู‚ุฏูŠู…ุฉ ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุนุงุทู.
18:41
CA: Here's my last question:
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุฅู„ูŠูƒ ุณุคุงู„ูŠ ุงู„ุงุฎูŠุฑ:
18:43
Personally, what can people do to help heal?
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ุดุฎุตูŠู‹ุงุŒ ู…ุงุฐุง ูŠุณุชุทูŠุน ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจู‡ ู„ู…ุณุงุนุฏุชู‡ู… ููŠ ุงู„ุฅุชุญุงุฏุŸ
18:47
JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide to overcome your deepest prejudices.
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ุฌูˆู†ุŒ ู†ุนู…ุŒ ู…ู† ุงู„ุตุนุจ ุฌุฏู‹ุง ุฃู† ุชู‚ุฑุฑูˆุง ูู‚ุท ุงู„ู‚ุถุงุก ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุชุญูŠุฒุงุช ุงู„ุนู…ูŠู‚ุฉ.
18:51
And there's research showing
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ูˆู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุจุญุซ ูŠูุธู‡ุฑ
18:53
that political prejudices are deeper and stronger than race prejudices
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ุฃู† ุงู„ุชุญูŠุฒุงุช ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠุฉ ู‡ูŠ ุฃุนู…ู‚ ูˆุฃู‚ูˆู‰ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุญูŠุฒุงุช ุงู„ุนุฑู‚ูŠุฉ
18:57
in the country now.
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ููŠ ุจู„ุงุฏู†ุง ุงู„ูŠูˆู….
18:59
So I think you have to make an effort -- that's the main thing.
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ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุจุฐู„ ุฌู‡ุฏ - ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุดูŠุก ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณูŠ.
19:02
Make an effort to actually meet somebody.
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ุฅุจุฐู„ูˆุง ุฌู‡ุฏู‹ุง ู„ู…ู‚ุงุจู„ุฉ ุฃุญุฏู‡ู… ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ.
19:04
Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,
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ู„ุฏู‰ ูƒู„ ุดุฎุต ุงุจู† ุนู…/ุฎุงู„ุŒ ุดู‚ูŠู‚ ุฒูˆุฌ/ุฒูˆุฌุฉุŒ
19:07
somebody who's on the other side.
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ุฃุญุฏู‡ู… ู…ู…ู† ููŠ ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ.
19:09
So, after this election --
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ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ูˆุจุนุฏ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช --
19:11
wait a week or two,
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ุฅู†ุชุทุฑูˆุง ุฃุณุจูˆุนู‹ุง ุฃูˆ ุฃุณุจูˆุนูŠู†ุŒ
19:12
because it's probably going to feel awful for one of you --
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ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ุฑุจู…ุง ูŠุดุนุฑู ุฃุญุฏูƒู… ุจุงู„ูุธุงุนุฉ --
19:15
but wait a couple weeks, and then reach out and say you want to talk.
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ู„ูƒู† ุฅู†ุชุธุฑูˆุง ุนุฏุฉ ุฃุณุงุจูŠุนุŒ ุซู… ุชูˆุงุตู„ูˆุง ูˆู‚ูˆู„ูˆุง ุฃู†ูƒู… ุชุฑุบุจูˆู† ููŠ ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ.
19:19
And before you do it,
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ูˆู‚ุจู„ ุฃู† ุชูุนู„ูˆุง ุฐู„ูƒุŒ
19:21
read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" --
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ุฅู‚ุฑุฃูˆุง "ู„ุฏุงู„ ูƒุงุฑู†ูŠุฌ"ุŒ ูƒุชุงุจ "ูƒูŠู ุชูƒุณุจ ุงู„ุฃุตุฏู‚ุงุก ูˆุชุคุซุฑ ููŠ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ" --
19:24
(Laughter)
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(ุถุญูƒ)
19:25
I'm totally serious.
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ุฅู†ู†ูŠ ุฌุงุฏ ุชู…ุงู…ู‹ุง.
19:26
You'll learn techniques if you start by acknowledging,
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ุณุชุชุนู„ู…ูˆู† ุงู„ุฃุณุงู„ูŠุจ ุฅุฐุง ุจุฏุฃุชู… ุงู„ุฅุนุชุฑุงูุŒ
19:29
if you start by saying,
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ูˆุฅุฐุง ุจุฏุฃุชู… ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ุŒ
19:30
"You know, we don't agree on a lot,
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"ุฃุชุนู„ู…ุŒ ู„ุง ู†ุชูู‚ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑุŒ
19:32
but one thing I really respect about you, Uncle Bob,"
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ูˆู„ูƒู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุดูŠุก ูˆุงุญุฏ ุญูˆู„ูƒ ุฃุญุชุฑู…ู‡ ุญู‚ู‹ุง ูŠุง ุนู…ูŠ ุจูˆุจ"
19:34
or "... about you conservatives, is ... "
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ุฃูˆ "... ุญูˆู„ูƒู… ุฃูŠู‡ุง ุงู„ู…ุญุงูุธูˆู†ุŒ ู‡ูˆ ..."
19:36
And you can find something.
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ูˆุจุฅู…ูƒุงู†ูƒู… ุงู„ุนุซูˆุฑ ุนู„ู‰ ุฃูŠ ุดูŠุก.
19:38
If you start with some appreciation, it's like magic.
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ุฅุฐุง ุจุฏุฃุชู… ุจุจุนุถ ุงู„ุชู‚ุฏูŠุฑุŒ ุฅู†ู‡ ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ุณุญุฑ.
19:40
This is one of the main things I've learned
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ู‡ุฐุง ุดูŠุก ูˆุงุญุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุนู„ู…ุชู‡ุง
19:42
that I take into my human relationships.
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ุจุดุฃู† ุนู„ุงู‚ุงุชูŠ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠุฉ.
19:44
I still make lots of stupid mistakes,
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ู…ุง ุฒู„ุชู ุฃุฑุชูƒุจ ุฃุฎุทุงุก ุบุจูŠุฉุŒ
19:46
but I'm incredibly good at apologizing now,
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ูˆู„ูƒู†ู†ูŠ ุฌูŠุฏ ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุฑุงุฆุนุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุฅุนุชุฐุงุฑ ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ
19:48
and at acknowledging what somebody was right about.
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ูˆุงู„ุฅุนุชุฑุงู ููŠู…ุง ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุดุฎุต ู…ุญู‚ู‹ุง ุญูˆู„ ุดูŠุก ู…ุนูŠู†.
19:51
And if you do that,
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ูˆุฅุฐุง ู‚ู…ุชู… ุจุฐู„ูƒุŒ
19:52
then the conversation goes really well, and it's actually really fun.
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ุณุชุณูŠุฑู ุจุงู„ุชุงู„ูŠ ุงู„ู…ุญุงุฏุซุฉ ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุฌูŠุฏุฉ ุญู‚ู‹ุงุŒ ูˆู‡ูŠ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ู…ู…ุชุนุฉ.
19:56
CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating speaking with you.
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ูƒุฑูŠุณ: ุฅู†ู‡ ู„ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ู…ุชุน ู„ู„ุบุงูŠุฉ ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ู…ุนูƒ.
19:59
It really does feel like the ground that we're on
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ู†ุดุนุฑู ุญู‚ู‹ุง ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฃุฑุถ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ุญู† ููˆู‚ู‡ุง
20:03
is a ground populated by deep questions of morality and human nature.
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ู‡ูŠ ุฃุฑุถ ู…ูƒุชุธุฉ ุจุงู„ุฃุณุฆู„ุฉ ุงู„ุนู…ูŠู‚ุฉ ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุงู„ุจุดุฑูŠุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠุฉ.
20:08
Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.
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ูƒู„ุงู…ูƒู… ูƒุงู† ุญูƒูŠู…ุงู‹ ูˆู…ู‡ู…ุงู‹ ุฌุฏุงู‹.
20:10
Thank you so much for sharing this time with us.
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ุดูƒุฑู‹ุง ู„ูƒ ู„ู…ุดุงุฑูƒุชูƒ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช ู…ุนู†ุง.
20:13
JH: Thanks, Chris.
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ุฌูˆู†: ุดูƒุฑู‹ุง ู„ูƒ ูƒุฑูŠุณ.
20:14
JH: Thanks, everyone.
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ุฌูˆู†ุŒ ุดูƒุฑู‹ุง ู„ู„ุฌู…ูŠุน.
20:15
(Applause)
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(ุชุตููŠู‚)
ุญูˆู„ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ูˆู‚ุน

ุณูŠู‚ุฏู… ู„ูƒ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ูˆู‚ุน ู…ู‚ุงุทุน ููŠุฏูŠูˆ YouTube ุงู„ู…ููŠุฏุฉ ู„ุชุนู„ู… ุงู„ู„ุบุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ. ุณุชุฑู‰ ุฏุฑูˆุณ ุงู„ู„ุบุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠุชู… ุชุฏุฑูŠุณู‡ุง ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ู…ุฏุฑุณูŠู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุฏุฑุฌุฉ ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ู‰ ู…ู† ุฌู…ูŠุน ุฃู†ุญุงุก ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…. ุงู†ู‚ุฑ ู†ู‚ุฑู‹ุง ู…ุฒุฏูˆุฌู‹ุง ููˆู‚ ุงู„ุชุฑุฌู…ุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ ุงู„ู…ุนุฑูˆุถุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ูƒู„ ุตูุญุฉ ููŠุฏูŠูˆ ู„ุชุดุบูŠู„ ุงู„ููŠุฏูŠูˆ ู…ู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ. ูŠุชู… ุชู…ุฑูŠุฑ ุงู„ุชุฑุฌู…ุงุช ุจุงู„ุชุฒุงู…ู† ู…ุน ุชุดุบูŠู„ ุงู„ููŠุฏูŠูˆ. ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ู„ุฏูŠูƒ ุฃูŠ ุชุนู„ูŠู‚ุงุช ุฃูˆ ุทู„ุจุงุช ุŒ ูŠุฑุฌู‰ ุงู„ุงุชุตุงู„ ุจู†ุง ุจุงุณุชุฎุฏุงู… ู†ู…ูˆุฐุฌ ุงู„ุงุชุตุงู„ ู‡ุฐุง.

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