Can a divided America heal? | Jonathan Haidt

翻译人员: Jing Peng 校对人员: JiYuan Zhang

Chris Anderson: So, Jon, this feels scary.

Jon, 这感觉真有点恐怖。

JH：是的。

Jonathan Haidt: Yeah.

CA: It feels like the world is in a place

CA: 好像世人形同陌路，

that we haven't seen for a long time.

不曾相识。

People don't just disagree in the way that we're familiar with,

人们不只是一如往常，

on the left-right political divide.

对左右派的分歧争执不休，

There are much deeper differences afoot.

还有更深层次的疏离。

What on earth is going on, and how did we get here?

究竟发生了什么？ 我们为何变成这样？

JH: 现在不同以往，

JH: This is different.

有种世界末日般绝望的感觉。

There's a much more apocalyptic sort of feeling.

Survey research by Pew Research shows

皮尤研究的调查显示，

that the degree to which we feel that the other side is not just --

我们对另一派的感觉程度，

we don't just dislike them; we strongly dislike them,

并不是简单地不喜欢他们 或强烈地不喜欢他们。

and we think that they are a threat to the nation.

我们觉得对方对整个民族造成了威胁。

Those numbers have been going up and up,

这些人的占比一直在上升，

and those are over 50 percent now on both sides.

现在两边具有这种想法的人都超过了50％。

People are scared,

人们感到恐惧，

because it feels like this is different than before; it's much more intense.

因为这种感觉有别于以前， 而且特别的强烈。

Whenever I look at any sort of social puzzle,

每当我审视社会难题时，

我都会采用三个最基本的 道德心理学原则，

I always apply the three basic principles of moral psychology,

在这里应该也能起到作用。

and I think they'll help us here.

所以，当考虑政治问题时，

So the first thing that you have to always keep in mind

when you're thinking about politics

必须首先意识到，

is that we're tribal.

我们是部落式的，

我们演化为部落主义。

We evolved for tribalism.

One of the simplest and greatest insights into human social nature

其中最简单且最伟大 揭示人类社会本质的谚语

is the Bedouin proverb:

是由贝都因总结的：

"Me against my brother;

“ 我反对我的兄弟；

me and my brother against our cousin;

我和我兄弟反对我们的表兄；

me and my brother and cousins against the stranger."

而我们一起反对陌生人。"

And that tribalism allowed us to create large societies

部落主义使我们自身的 社会逐渐强大，

and to come together in order to compete with others.

大家一起便可与其他部落抗衡。

That brought us out of the jungle and out of small groups,

这使我们走出丛林 逐渐壮大，

but it means that we have eternal conflict.

但也意味着固有的矛盾性。

The question you have to look at is:

你需要关注的问题是：

我们的社会 在哪些方面使之恶化，

What aspects of our society are making that more bitter,

and what are calming them down?

又在哪些方面平息了这种矛盾？

CA: That's a very dark proverb.

CA: 这谚语听上去挺沉重。

You're saying that that's actually baked into most people's mental wiring

你是说在一定程度上，

at some level?

这种观念对大多数人来说 是根深蒂固的？

JH: Oh, absolutely. This is just a basic aspect of human social cognition.

JH：哦，绝对的 这是人类社会认知的基本方面，

But we can also live together really peacefully,

但我们也可以和平共处。

and we've invented all kinds of fun ways of, like, playing war.

而且我们还发明了各种 的有趣的活动，例如模拟打仗。

I mean, sports, politics --

我是说体育，政治——

these are all ways that we get to exercise this tribal nature

这些活动都是在不伤及他人的情况下，

体现这种部落性质。

without actually hurting anyone.

We're also really good at trade and exploration and meeting new people.

我们也非常擅长贸易， 探险和认识新朋友。

所以必须把部落主义 看作是有毁誉参半的——

So you have to see our tribalism as something that goes up or down --

it's not like we're doomed to always be fighting each other,

我们并不是注定就是相互争斗。

but we'll never have world peace.

但永远没有世界和平。

CA: The size of that tribe can shrink or expand.

CA：部落的大小可以缩小 也可以增大。

JH: Right.

JH: 对的。

CA: The size of what we consider "us"

CA：我们认为“我们”的大小，

and what we consider "other" or "them"

以及我们认为的“其他”或“他们”，

can change.

都是可以变化的。

And some people believed that process could continue indefinitely.

有些人认为这个过程 可以无限期地继续。

JH: That's right.

JH: 是的。

CA: And we were indeed expanding the sense of tribe for a while.

CA：我们对部落的认同确实在扩张。

JH: So this is, I think,

JH：所以我认为，

where we're getting at what's possibly the new left-right distinction.

这可能就是 新的左右派别分歧出现的地方。

I mean, the left-right as we've all inherited it,

我的意思是 我们所了解的左右派，

comes out of the labor versus capital distinction,

来自劳动力与资本的差异

and the working class, and Marx.

和工人阶级，马克思。

But I think what we're seeing now, increasingly,

但现在 我们所看到越来越多的是

西方民主国家内部的分歧。

is a divide in all the Western democracies

between the people who want to stop at nation,

一些人主张本国内

the people who are more parochial --

狭隘的民族主义，

and I don't mean that in a bad way --

我没有贬低之意，

people who have much more of a sense of being rooted,

他们关心自己的城镇，

社区和国家的盛衰。 立足于本位主义。

they care about their town, their community and their nation.

And then those who are anti-parochial and who --

而另外一些人是则是 反狭隘主义的。

whenever I get confused, I just think of the John Lennon song "Imagine."

每当我对此困惑时 就会想起约翰·列侬的“想象”：

"Imagine there's no countries, nothing to kill or die for."

“想象一个没有国界的地方， 没有杀戮或战争“。

这些人想要更多的治理全球，

And so these are the people who want more global governance,

they don't like nation states, they don't like borders.

他们不喜欢民族化的国家 他们不喜欢边界，

这在欧洲也极其普遍。

You see this all over Europe as well.

There's a great metaphor guy -- actually, his name is Shakespeare --

有个家伙做了形象的比喻 实际上，他的名字叫莎士比亚——

writing ten years ago in Britain.

是十年前在英国时写的，

He had a metaphor:

他的比喻是这样的：

"Are we drawbridge-uppers or drawbridge-downers?"

“我们是闭关锁国好呢 还是‘大开闸门’好呢？”

And Britain is divided 52-48 on that point.

英国对此以52-48的比例分裂，

And America is divided on that point, too.

在这一点上美国也分歧很大。

CA: And so, those of us who grew up with The Beatles

CA：我们这些与披头士一同长大，

and that sort of hippie philosophy of dreaming of a more connected world --

追随世界大同的嬉皮哲学的人们，

it felt so idealistic and "how could anyone think badly about that?"

惊讶：如此的理想主义“怎么可能 有人认为它不好？“

And what you're saying is that, actually,

你现在所说的，实际上是：

millions of people today feel that that isn't just silly;

成千上万的人们不仅觉得它愚蠢，

更是危险和错误的， 他们对此恐惧。

it's actually dangerous and wrong, and they're scared of it.

JH: I think the big issue, especially in Europe but also here,

JH：我认为关键问题 特别是在欧洲，

但就算这里也如此： 就是移民问题。

is the issue of immigration.

And I think this is where we have to look very carefully

我认为我们必须 从社会学的角度来

at the social science about diversity and immigration.

审视多样性和移民问题。

一旦事物被政治化，

Once something becomes politicized,

once it becomes something that the left loves and the right --

一旦它成为左派的挚爱 右派的天敌，

then even the social scientists can't think straight about it.

那么甚至社会学家都不得其解。

现在，多样性在很多方面是好的，

Now, diversity is good in a lot of ways.

它明显开创了许多先河。

It clearly creates more innovation.

The American economy has grown enormously from it.

美国经济的迅速增长 大大得益于此。

Diversity and immigration do a lot of good things.

多样性和移民贡献了很多好的东西。

But what the globalists, I think, don't see,

但是全球主义者没有看到，

what they don't want to see,

或是不想看到的是：

is that ethnic diversity cuts social capital and trust.

种族多样性 削减了社会资本和彼此的信任。

There's a very important study by Robert Putnam,

“独自玩保龄”的作者 罗伯特普特南

有一个非常重要的

the author of "Bowling Alone,"

looking at social capital databases.

有关社会资本数据库的研究：

And basically, the more people feel that they are the same,

基本上 人们越觉得彼此类似，

the more they trust each other,

就越会彼此信任，

the more they can have a redistributionist welfare state.

他们就越有可能 重新分配国家的福利。

斯堪的纳维亚国家之所以好，

Scandinavian countries are so wonderful

就是因为他们有保持小国同质的传统，

because they have this legacy of being small, homogenous countries.

And that leads to a progressive welfare state,

从而形成了高质的福利国家。

a set of progressive left-leaning values, which says,

一些左倾价值思潮践行

“国门打开！ 世界本是美好的

"Drawbridge down! The world is a great place.

叙利亚人民正在受苦， 我们必须欢迎他们。“

People in Syria are suffering -- we must welcome them in."

这本是一件美丽的事情。

And it's a beautiful thing.

But if, and I was in Sweden this summer,

但如果 今年夏天我是在瑞典，

if the discourse in Sweden is fairly politically correct

所用话题都必须 在政治上保持其正确性，

and they can't talk about the downsides,

不能谈论它的任何缺陷。

引进大量人口，

you end up bringing a lot of people in.

那将削减社会资本，

That's going to cut social capital,

it makes it hard to have a welfare state

这将很难保持原有的社会福利。

and they might end up, as we have in America,

最后就像我们美国一样：

with a racially divided, visibly racially divided, society.

成为种族分裂 且是明显的种族分裂的社会。

So this is all very uncomfortable to talk about.

这一切都非常难以启齿，

But I think this is the thing, especially in Europe and for us, too,

但我认为这些， 特别是在欧洲和我们，

we need to be looking at.

都必须直视的。

CA: You're saying that people of reason,

CA：你是说有理性的人，

people who would consider themselves not racists,

他们不认为自己是种族主义者，

but moral, upstanding people,

但从道义上讲，

直率的人有理由说 人类只是太不同了。

have a rationale that says humans are just too different;

融合极其不同的人种

that we're in danger of overloading our sense of what humans are capable of,

by mixing in people who are too different.

实际上超出了我们的能力 从而变得岌岌可危。

JH：是的，但我可以换种说法 可能更容易接受。

JH: Yes, but I can make it much more palatable

by saying it's not necessarily about race.

这不一定是种族的区别，

It's about culture.

而是文化的不同。

有一个叫凯伦·斯登纳的政治学者 做了一项精彩的研究：

There's wonderful work by a political scientist named Karen Stenner,

who shows that when people have a sense

它显示出： 当人们认为彼此团结时

that we are all united, we're all the same,

大家都是一样的，

there are many people who have a predisposition to authoritarianism.

其中有很多人都有 独裁主义的倾向。

当他们觉得

Those people aren't particularly racist

社会和道德秩序没有受到威胁时，

when they feel as through there's not a threat

to our social and moral order.

这部分人并不是特别的种族主义者，

但是在实验中如果告诉他们 人们来自不同的地方

But if you prime them experimentally

那么他们就会变得有所区分。

by thinking we're coming apart, people are getting more different,

then they get more racist, homophobic, they want to kick out the deviants.

出现更多的种族主义者，憎恨同性恋者 他们便想驱逐异教徒，

So it's in part that you get an authoritarian reaction.

这就是产生专制的部分原因。

The left, following through the Lennonist line --

那些追随列宁主义，

约翰·列侬的左派，

the John Lennon line --

does things that create an authoritarian reaction.

他们的意识形态创造了专制反应。

We're certainly seeing that in America with the alt-right.

当然我们在美国的极其右派中 也看到了同样的情形。

We saw it in Britain, we've seen it all over Europe.

在英国，我们见到它 同样地，整个欧洲也在盛行。

But the more positive part of that

但其积极的一部分在于 我认为，

is that I think the localists, or the nationalists, are actually right --

主张本地化或民族主义者 实际上是正确的：

that, if you emphasize our cultural similarity,

如果你强调文化的相似性，

种族实际上并不那么重要。

then race doesn't actually matter very much.

So an assimilationist approach to immigration

所以移民同化措施

会消除很多这些问题。

removes a lot of these problems.

And if you value having a generous welfare state,

如果你想要 一个慷慨的福利国家，

你必须强调大家都一样。

you've got to emphasize that we're all the same.

CA: OK, so rising immigration and fears about that

CA：好吧，移民和对此的担忧 越来越多

are one of the causes of the current divide.

是当前分裂的原因之一，

另外 还有什么其他原因呢？

What are other causes?

JH: The next principle of moral psychology

JH：道德心理学的另一个原则是：

is that intuitions come first, strategic reasoning second.

直觉占先，合理的推论排在第二。

You've probably heard the term "motivated reasoning"

你可能听说过术语“动机推理”

or "confirmation bias."

或“确认偏差”。

There's some really interesting work

关于我们的高智商和言语能力

on how our high intelligence and our verbal abilities

有一些很有趣的研究结果：

might have evolved not to help us find out the truth,

随着进化 它们不再是帮助我们找出真相的工具，

而是帮助我们互相操纵， 保护我们的声誉...

but to help us manipulate each other, defend our reputation ...

我们极其善于强词夺理

We're really, really good at justifying ourselves.

当开始考虑集团利益时

And when you bring group interests into account,

so it's not just me, it's my team versus your team,

不再只是我， 而是我的团队抗衡你的团队

whereas if you're evaluating evidence that your side is wrong,

尽管有证据证明你是错的，

we just can't accept that.

我们也不能接受，

这就是为什么你赢不了政治辩论。

So this is why you can't win a political argument.

If you're debating something,

如果你在辩论一个话题

you can't persuade the person with reasons and evidence,

你不能用理由和证据说服对方，

because that's not the way reasoning works.

因为这对推理不起作用。

So now, give us the internet, give us Google:

所以现在，给我们互联网 给我们Google

"I heard that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.

“我听说了奥巴马出生在肯尼亚

Let me Google that -- oh my God! 10 million hits! Look, he was!"

让我Google 一下 - 我的上帝！ 1000万次点击！ 看，真的是呀！“

CA: So this has come as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of people.

CA：所以这个不怎么样的现实 震惊了很多人。

Social media has often been framed by techno-optimists

社交媒体经常被高科技乐观者，

as this great connecting force that would bring people together.

模式化成使人们相互连接的伟大动力。

And there have been some unexpected counter-effects to that.

但实际上 它也制造了意想不到的反作用力。

JH: That's right.

JH：没错，

这就是为什么我很沉迷于

That's why I'm very enamored of yin-yang views

of human nature and left-right --

对人性的阴阳观点和左右派别——

每一方对某些问题都是一定的正确性，

that each side is right about certain things,

but then it goes blind to other things.

但对另一面又有盲目性。

And so the left generally believes that human nature is good:

所以左派一般都相信人性是好的，

bring people together, knock down the walls and all will be well.

清除障碍，让人们聚在一起 一切都会变得美好。

The right -- social conservatives, not libertarians --

右派——社会保守主义者 不是自由主义者——

social conservatives generally believe people can be greedy

社会保守主义者一般认为，

and sexual and selfish,

人们贪婪，性别歧视和自私，

and we need regulation, and we need restrictions.

我们需要监管和限制。

So, yeah, if you knock down all the walls,

如果拆除障碍

allow people to communicate all over the world,

允许世界各地的人们随意沟通，

you get a lot of porn and a lot of racism.

色情的东西便会泛滥 出现很多种族主义者。

CA: So help us understand.

CA：那么帮助我们理解一下，

These principles of human nature have been with us forever.

这些人性的本质 与生俱来，挥之不去，

What's changed that's deepened this feeling of division?

那么是什么加深了 这种分裂的感觉呢？

JH: You have to see six to ten different threads all coming together.

JH：你会遇到六到十个 不同的原因交织在一起，

I'll just list a couple of them.

我在这里只列举几个原因：

So in America, one of the big -- actually, America and Europe --

在美国， 实际上包括美国和欧洲

one of the biggest ones is World War II.

最关键的是第二次世界大战。

There's interesting research from Joe Henrich and others

Joe Henrich和其他一些人的有趣研究发现，

that says if your country was at war,

如果你的国家沦陷战争，

especially when you were young,

特别是在你小的时候，

then we test you 30 years later in a commons dilemma

30年后在一般的困境

or a prisoner's dilemma,

或牢狱中再测试你，

你更善于合作。

you're more cooperative.

Because of our tribal nature, if you're --

因为我们的部落性质——

my parents were teenagers during World War II,

我父母的青少年时期正值 第二次世界大战期间，

and they would go out looking for scraps of aluminum

他们会出去寻找铝屑

to help the war effort.

来支持战争，

I mean, everybody pulled together.

我的意思是，大家团结一致。

And so then these people go on,

然后这些人成长，

they rise up through business and government,

他们通过生意或在政府部门任职 渐入佳境

they take leadership positions.

从而担任领导职位，

They're really good at compromise and cooperation.

他们真的很擅长 妥协和合作，

They all retire by the '90s.

他们都在90年代退休了。

So we're left with baby boomers by the end of the '90s.

到90年代末 我们只剩下婴儿潮一代——

1968年以后。

And their youth was spent fighting each other within each country,

他们的青春奋斗只发生在 每个国家的内部，

in 1968 and afterwards.

The loss of the World War II generation, "The Greatest Generation,"

失去二战这“最伟大的一代”

is huge.

损失巨大，

So that's one.

这是原因之一。

Another, in America, is the purification of the two parties.

在美国另外一个原因是两党的净化，

There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.

曾经我们是自由共和党 和保守民主党。

在20世纪中叶 美国是真正的两党制，

So America had a mid-20th century that was really bipartisan.

But because of a variety of factors that started things moving,

但是由于各种因素 情况开始变化，

by the 90's, we had a purified liberal party and conservative party.

到了90年代，我们有了净化后的 自由党和保守党。

现在，两个党派中的成员截然不同，

So now, the people in either party really are different,

and we really don't want our children to marry them,

我们开始反对彼此的子女联姻。

which, in the '60s, didn't matter very much.

但在60年代，这没有什么关系。

So, the purification of the parties.

这便党派净化的原因。

第三个便是互联网，如上所述，

Third is the internet and, as I said,

it's just the most amazing stimulant for post-hoc reasoning and demonization.

这是事后颠倒黑白魔鬼般 最具刺激性的推动力。

CA: The tone of what's happening on the internet now is quite troubling.

CA：现在互联网上的某些评论相当恶劣，

我只是在Twitter上 做了一下有关选举的快速搜索，

I just did a quick search on Twitter about the election

看到两个彼此相邻的tweets，

and saw two tweets next to each other.

One, against a picture of racist graffiti:

一个是针对一张种族主义涂鸦的图片：

“这真是太恶心了！

"This is disgusting!

Ugliness in this country, brought to us by #Trump."

在这个国家 Trump带给我们丑陋之物。”

And then the next one is:

下一个是：

"Crooked Hillary dedication page. Disgusting!"

“ 骗子希拉里奉献的页面， 恶心！“

这种“厌恶”的想法困扰着我，

So this idea of "disgust" is troubling to me.

Because you can have an argument or a disagreement about something,

因为你可以争论一件事 或对某事有分歧，

you can get angry at someone.

你可以生某人的气。

厌恶，我听说你说过 使事情深层化。

Disgust, I've heard you say, takes things to a much deeper level.

JH: That's right. Disgust is different.

JH：没错 厌恶是不同的，

Anger -- you know, I have kids.

生气——你知道 我有孩子。

They fight 10 times a day,

他们每天打10次架

and they love each other 30 times a day.

但每天互相示爱30次。

You just go back and forth: you get angry, you're not angry;

你只是来回反复： 你生气，你不生气，

you're angry, you're not angry.

你生气，你不生气……

But disgust is different.

但厌恶是不同的，

Disgust paints the person as subhuman, monstrous,

厌恶形容此人是 亚人类，怪异，

deformed, morally deformed.

变态，道德败坏。

Disgust is like indelible ink.

厌恶就像不褪色的墨水。

There's research from John Gottman on marital therapy.

在约翰·高特曼婚姻治疗的研究中显示：

If you look at the faces -- if one of the couple shows disgust or contempt,

观察夫妇的脸，如果其中一个人的脸 表现出厌恶或蔑视，

that's a predictor that they're going to get divorced soon,

这将预示他们很快就要离婚了。

whereas if they show anger, that doesn't predict anything,

相反，如果他们表现出愤怒 这不预示任何东西。

because if you deal with anger well, it actually is good.

因为如果你能处理好愤怒 它实际上是好兆头。

So this election is different.

所以这次选举截然不同，

Donald Trump personally uses the word "disgust" a lot.

唐纳德·特朗普口口声声 使用了许多“厌恶”，

He's very germ-sensitive, so disgust does matter a lot --

他对细菌非常敏感 所以厌恶很重要——

more for him, that's something unique to him --

更多为他，这是他的独到之处。

but as we demonize each other more,

但是当我们多次相互丑化，

仅是通过非此即彼的二元观点看问题，

and again, through the Manichaean worldview,

the idea that the world is a battle between good and evil

世界将在善与恶之间斗争

as this has been ramping up,

从而矛盾愈演愈烈。

we're more likely not just to say they're wrong or I don't like them,

更多时候 我们可能不只是说 他们错了或我不喜欢他们，

而是说他们是邪恶的，是撒旦，

but we say they're evil, they're satanic,

they're disgusting, they're revolting.

他们很恶心，令人作呕。

And then we want nothing to do with them.

而后，我们拒绝与他们来往。

And that's why I think we're seeing it, for example, on campus now.

这就是为什么我们会遇到这些冲突。 例如，在校园里，

We're seeing more the urge to keep people off campus,

我们看到更多的紧急措施 让人们离校。

silence them, keep them away.

保持沉默，让他们远离，

I'm afraid that this whole generation of young people,

恐怕整个这代年轻人，

if their introduction to politics involves a lot of disgust,

如果在他们刚刚涉及政治时 就出现这么多的厌恶，

they're not going to want to be involved in politics as they get older.

那么在他们成熟后 恐怕不会想参与政治。

CA: So how do we deal with that?

CA：那么我们如何解决厌恶

Disgust. How do you defuse disgust?

如何消除厌恶呢？

JH: You can't do it with reasons.

JH：好像不能以理服人，

I think ...

我认为...

I studied disgust for many years, and I think about emotions a lot.

我研究厌恶多年 我想它与情绪密切相关。

And I think that the opposite of disgust is actually love.

我认为与厌恶相对的实际上就是爱，

Love is all about, like ...

爱就是所有，像...

Disgust is closing off, borders.

厌恶是关闭，有边界。

Love is about dissolving walls.

爱是关于消除障碍，

我认为，个人关系 可能是我们具有的

So personal relationships, I think,

are probably the most powerful means we have.

最强大的武器。

You can be disgusted by a group of people,

你可以被一群人厌恶，

随后，你遇到某一特定的人，

but then you meet a particular person

and you genuinely discover that they're lovely.

然后你真正地发现 他们很可爱，

And then gradually that chips away or changes your category as well.

然后逐渐把你也同化了。

可惜的是 美国人以前不分左右政治，

The tragedy is, Americans used to be much more mixed up in the their towns

在他们的城镇相互融合，

by left-right or politics.

但现在形成了这个伟大的道德鸿沟。

And now that it's become this great moral divide,

there's a lot of evidence that we're moving to be near people

有很多证据表明 谁在政治上与我们一致，

who are like us politically.

我们就会像他们靠近，

It's harder to find somebody who's on the other side.

很难找到志同道合的异党。

So they're over there, they're far away.

因此，他们虽然就在附近 但离我们很远，

也很难去了解他们。

It's harder to get to know them.

CA: What would you say to someone or say to Americans,

CA：你会告诫某人 或美国人

people generally,

或大众

我们应该如何了解对方，

about what we should understand about each other

that might help us rethink for a minute

从而有助于我们重新思考一下，

this "disgust" instinct?

这个“厌恶”的本能？

JH：对呀，

JH: Yes.

A really important thing to keep in mind --

记住这点很重要——

there's research by political scientist Alan Abramowitz,

政治学家Alan Abramowitz的研究表明，

美国的民主越来越受到

showing that American democracy is increasingly governed

by what's called "negative partisanship."

所谓的“消极党派“的掌控。

That means you think, OK there's a candidate,

这意味着 OK 有一个候选人，

你喜欢这个候选人 投票给他/她，

you like the candidate, you vote for the candidate.

But with the rise of negative advertising

但随着负面消息

and social media and all sorts of other trends,

在社交媒体 和各种其他媒体的传播，

increasingly, the way elections are done

选举就完蛋了。

is that each side tries to make the other side so horrible, so awful,

每一方都在试图把 另一方丑化成可怕，可耻的家伙，

that you'll vote for my guy by default.

从而投票给我方成了默认方式。

And so as we more and more vote against the other side

因此越来越多的投票 是反对另一边，

and not for our side,

而不是支持我们这边。

you have to keep in mind that if people are on the left,

你必须记住 如果人支持左派，

they think, "Well, I used to think that Republicans were bad,

他们认为 “嗯，我以前觉得共和党人是坏的”

现在唐纳德·特朗普证明这点，

but now Donald Trump proves it.

And now every Republican, I can paint with all the things

那么每个共和党人，

that I think about Trump."

我都可以用我所了解特朗普的东西脸谱化。

And that's not necessarily true.

但这不一定是真的，

They're generally not very happy with their candidate.

他们一般也不喜欢他们的候选人，

This is the most negative partisanship election in American history.

这次选举是美国历史上最消极的党派之争。

So you have to first separate your feelings about the candidate

所以首选你必须区分 你对候选人的感受

from your feelings about the people who are given a choice.

和对选民的感受。

And then you have to realize that,

然后你必须意识到，

because we all live in a separate moral world --

为我们都生活 在各自单独的道德世界中，

the metaphor I use in the book is that we're all trapped in "The Matrix,"

在我的书中 使用的隐喻是我们都被困在“矩阵”中，

或每个道德群体是一个矩阵 一个自愿的幻觉世界。

or each moral community is a matrix, a consensual hallucination.

And so if you're within the blue matrix,

所以如果你在民主党的阵营中，

everything's completely compelling that the other side --

一切都引人沮丧 那一边，

they're troglodytes, they're racists, they're the worst people in the world,

他们是老顽固，种族主义者， 是世界上最糟糕的人。

and you have all the facts to back that up.

你有所有的事实作为佐证，

But somebody in the next house from yours

但你的邻居生活在

is living in a different moral matrix.

不同的道德矩阵中，

They live in a different video game,

他们住在不同的游戏世界里，

and they see a completely different set of facts.

他们看到完全不同的事实。

And each one sees different threats to the country.

各方看到的是 对这个国家不同的威胁，

And what I've found from being in the middle

作为中间人 我试图理解双方，

and trying to understand both sides is: both sides are right.

并发现： 双方其实都是对的。

There are a lot of threats to this country,

现在很多问题威胁着这个国家，

and each side is constitutionally incapable of seeing them all.

但每一方都看不到问题的实质。

CA: So, are you saying that we almost need a new type of empathy?

CA：那么，你说的是 我们几乎需要一种新型的共情心？

Empathy is traditionally framed as:

共情传统上被描述为：

"Oh, I feel your pain. I can put myself in your shoes."

“哦，我感觉到你的痛苦 我可以感同身受“

And we apply it to the poor, the needy, the suffering.

我们把它用于穷人， 有需要的人，痛苦的人，

我们通常不会用在 我们不关注的人，

We don't usually apply it to people who we feel as other,

or we're disgusted by.

或我们厌恶的人身上。

JH: No. That's right.

JH：不错，是这样的。

CA: What would it look like to build that type of empathy?

CA：建立那种类型的共情会是什么样子呢？

JH: Actually, I think ...

JH：其实，我想...

共情是非常非常 热门的心理话题，

Empathy is a very, very hot topic in psychology,

and it's a very popular word on the left in particular.

特别在左派 它是一个非常受欢迎的词。

共情是一件好事 同情某种类别的受害者，

Empathy is a good thing, and empathy for the preferred classes of victims.

So it's important to empathize

所以左派同情

with the groups that we on the left think are so important.

他们认为该同情的对象。

That's easy to do, because you get points for that.

那很容易 因为你目标明确，

But empathy really should get you points if you do it when it's hard to do.

但共情真的应该触及到 很难做到的地方。

And, I think ...

而且，我想...

You know, we had a long 50-year period of dealing with our race problems

我们有着长达50年 处理种族问题

and legal discrimination,

和法律歧视的历史，

and that was our top priority for a long time

很长一段时间以来 它是我们的首要任务

and it still is important.

而且现在仍然很重要。

但是今年

But I think this year,

I'm hoping it will make people see

我希望人们看到

我们存在一个当务之急：

that we have an existential threat on our hands.

Our left-right divide, I believe,

左右党派的分裂。

is by far the most important divide we face.

我坚信这是迄今为止 我们面对的最严重的分歧，

We still have issues about race and gender and LGBT,

种族的问题 性别和LGBT问题依然存在，

but this is the urgent need of the next 50 years,

但这是未来50年迫切需要解决的。

and things aren't going to get better on their own.

问题不会自行消失

所以我们需要很多体制改革。

So we're going to need to do a lot of institutional reforms,

and we could talk about that,

我们可以对此进行谈论，

but that's like a whole long, wonky conversation.

但那将是一个冗长的话题。

But I think it starts with people realizing that this is a turning point.

但我认为当人们开始意识到这个问题 就是一个转折点。

And yes, we need a new kind of empathy.

是的，我们需要一种新的同理心，

We need to realize:

我们需要意识到

this is what our country needs,

这是我们国家需要的。

and this is what you need if you don't want to --

这是你需要的 如果你不想变得更糟。

Raise your hand if you want to spend the next four years

如果你想花四年的时间，

as angry and worried as you've been for the last year -- raise your hand.

像去年一样生气和担心，请举手。

如果你想逃离这些，

So if you want to escape from this,

read Buddha, read Jesus, read Marcus Aurelius.

读佛教，读耶稣 阅读Marcus Aurelius，

They have all kinds of great advice for how to drop the fear,

他们有各种各样好的建议， 教你如何放下恐惧：

重塑事实，

reframe things,

stop seeing other people as your enemy.

化敌为友，

There's a lot of guidance in ancient wisdom for this kind of empathy.

古代有很多智慧指导这种同理心。

CA: Here's my last question:

CA：这是我的最后一个问题：

作为个人，什么可以 帮助人们愈合伤口？

Personally, what can people do to help heal?

JH: Yeah, it's very hard to just decide to overcome your deepest prejudices.

JH：好的，其实真的很难 克服这种根生蒂固的偏见。

And there's research showing

有研究显示，在这个国家，

政治偏见更顽固于

that political prejudices are deeper and stronger than race prejudices

in the country now.

种族偏见，

So I think you have to make an effort -- that's the main thing.

所以我想你必须努力 ——这是关键。

Make an effort to actually meet somebody.

努力去认识一些人，

Everybody has a cousin, a brother-in-law,

每个人都有表兄弟，姐夫或妹夫，

肯定有人在另一方。

somebody who's on the other side.

在这次选举后

So, after this election --

wait a week or two,

等上一两个星期，

because it's probably going to feel awful for one of you --

因为其中一方可能会感到尴尬。

but wait a couple weeks, and then reach out and say you want to talk.

但等几个星期后，接触他 说你想说的话。

And before you do it,

在你做这之前，

读一下戴尔卡内基的 《如何赢得朋友和影响他人》

read Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" --

(Laughter)

(笑声)

I'm totally serious.

我是认真的。

You'll learn techniques if you start by acknowledging,

你会学到技巧， 如果你开始承认，

如果你开始说，

if you start by saying,

"You know, we don't agree on a lot,

“你知道我们有很多不同观点

但鲍勃叔叔，有一点我真的很尊重您“

but one thing I really respect about you, Uncle Bob,"

or "... about you conservatives, is ... "

或“...关于你们保守派，是...”

And you can find something.

你可以找到一些有用的东西，

如果一开始你就表达一些赏识 那将好似魔力，

If you start with some appreciation, it's like magic.

This is one of the main things I've learned

这是我学到的关键东西。

that I take into my human relationships.

我考虑到人际关系，

I still make lots of stupid mistakes,

我还是经常犯愚蠢的错误，

but I'm incredibly good at apologizing now,

但我现在学会了道歉，

and at acknowledging what somebody was right about.

并承认别人是对的。

And if you do that,

如果你能这样做，

then the conversation goes really well, and it's actually really fun.

谈话就会进行得很好 而且真得会很有趣。

CA: Jon, it's absolutely fascinating speaking with you.

CA：Jon，与你谈天绝对令人振奋，

It really does feel like the ground that we're on

真正感到我们所处的环境，

是一个充满了道德和人性深层问题的地方。

is a ground populated by deep questions of morality and human nature.

Your wisdom couldn't be more relevant.

你的智慧切中要害，

Thank you so much for sharing this time with us.

非常感谢和我们一同分享这个话题。

JH: 谢谢Chris

JH: Thanks, Chris.

JH: Thanks, everyone.

JH：谢谢大家

(Applause)

（掌声）