Mental Health for All by Involving All | Vikram Patel | TED Talks

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2012-09-11 ・ TED


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Mental Health for All by Involving All | Vikram Patel | TED Talks

303,027 views ・ 2012-09-11

TED


Dvaput kliknite na engleske titlove ispod za reprodukciju videozapisa.

00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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Prevoditelj: Senzos Osijek Recezent: Tilen Pigac - EFZG
00:15
I want you to imagine this for a moment.
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Želim da zamislite ovo na trenutak.
00:18
Two men, Rahul and Rajiv,
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Dvojica muškaraca, Rahul i Rajiv,
00:21
living in the same neighborhood,
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žive u istom susjedstvu,
00:23
from the same educational background, similar occupation,
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imaju istu obrazovnu pozadinu, slično zanimanje,
00:26
and they both turn up at their local accident emergency
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i obojica se pojave u svojoj lokalnoj hitnoj
00:29
complaining of acute chest pain.
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žaleći se na akutnu bol u prsima.
00:32
Rahul is offered a cardiac procedure,
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Rahulu je ponuđena srčana procedura,
00:35
but Rajiv is sent home.
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ali Rajiva pošalju doma.
00:38
What might explain the difference in the experience
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Što bi moglo objasniti razliku u iskustvu
00:40
of these two nearly identical men?
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ove dvojice skoro identičnih ljudi?
00:43
Rajiv suffers from a mental illness.
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Rajiv pati od duševne bolesti.
00:47
The difference in the quality of medical care
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Razlika u kvaliteti medicinske njege
00:50
received by people with mental illness is one of the reasons
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koju primaju ljudi s mentalnim bolestima je jedan od razloga
00:53
why they live shorter lives
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zašto žive kraće
00:55
than people without mental illness.
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nego ljudi koji ne pate od duševnih bolesti.
00:56
Even in the best-resourced countries in the world,
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Čak i u najbogatijim državama u svijetu,
00:59
this life expectancy gap is as much as 20 years.
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razlika u životnom vijeku je 20 godina.
01:04
In the developing countries of the world, this gap
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U državama koje se razvijaju, ova razlika
01:06
is even larger.
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je još veća.
01:08
But of course, mental illnesses can kill in more direct ways
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Naravno, duševne bolesti mogu usto ubiti na mnogo direktnije načine.
01:11
as well. The most obvious example is suicide.
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Najočitiji primjer je samoubojstvo.
01:14
It might surprise some of you here, as it did me,
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Možda može neke od vas ovdje iznenaditi, kao što je i mene,
01:17
when I discovered that suicide is at the top of the list
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kad sam otkrio da je samoubojstvo na vrhu liste
01:20
of the leading causes of death in young people
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vodećih uzroka smrti kod mladih ljudi
01:23
in all countries in the world,
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u svim državama svijeta,
01:24
including the poorest countries of the world.
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uključujući i najsiromašnije države.
01:28
But beyond the impact of a health condition
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Ali više od učinka zdravstvenog stanja
01:30
on life expectancy, we're also concerned
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na životni vijek, također smo zabrinuti
01:33
about the quality of life lived.
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za kvalitetu proživljenog života.
01:36
Now, in order for us to examine the overall impact
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Sad, kako bismo mogli istražiti sve učinke
01:38
of a health condition both on life expectancy
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zdravstvenog stanja na životni vijek
01:40
as well as on the quality of life lived, we need to use
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kao i na kvalitetu proživljenog života, moramo uzeti
01:43
a metric called the DALY,
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mjeru nazvanu DALY,
01:45
which stands for a Disability-Adjusted Life Year.
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koja znači godinu života prilagođenu invalidnošću (Disability-Adjusted Life Year).
01:49
Now when we do that, we discover some startling things
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Kad učinimo to, otkrivamo neke uznemiravajuće stvari
01:52
about mental illness from a global perspective.
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o duševnoj bolesti iz globalne perspektive.
01:54
We discover that, for example, mental illnesses are
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Otkrivamo da su, na primjer, duševne bolesti
01:58
amongst the leading causes of disability around the world.
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među vodećim uzrocima invalidnosti u svijetu.
02:02
Depression, for example, is the third-leading cause
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Depresija, na primjer, je treći vodeći uzrok
02:05
of disability, alongside conditions such as
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invalidnosti, uz stanja poput
02:08
diarrhea and pneumonia in children.
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dijareje i upale pluća u djece.
02:11
When you put all the mental illnesses together,
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Kad stavite sve mentalne bolesti zajedno,
02:13
they account for roughly 15 percent
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one uključuju otprilike za 15%
02:16
of the total global burden of disease.
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ukupnog tereta bolesti.
02:19
Indeed, mental illnesses are also very damaging
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Doista, mentalne bolesti su također vrlo štetne
02:23
to people's lives, but beyond just the burden of disease,
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za ljudske živote, ali osim samog tereta bolesti,
02:29
let us consider the absolute numbers.
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razmotrimo apsolutne brojeve.
02:31
The World Health Organization estimates
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Svjetska zdravstvena organizacija procjenjuje
02:34
that there are nearly four to five hundred million people
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da 400 do 500 milijuna ljudi
02:37
living on our tiny planet
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koji žive na našem sitnom planetu
02:39
who are affected by a mental illness.
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pate od duševne bolesti.
02:40
Now some of you here
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Neki od vas ovdje
02:42
look a bit astonished by that number,
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izgledaju iznenađeno tim brojem,
02:45
but consider for a moment the incredible diversity
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ali razmotrite na trenutak nevjerojatnu razliku
02:47
of mental illnesses, from autism and intellectual disability
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duševnih bolesti, od autizma i intelektualnih invalidnosti
02:50
in childhood, through to depression and anxiety,
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u djetinjstvu, kroz depresiju i tjeskobu,
02:53
substance misuse and psychosis in adulthood,
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zloporabu supstanci i prihoze kod odraslih,
02:55
all the way through to dementia in old age,
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sve do demencije u starijim godinama
02:57
and I'm pretty sure that each and every one us
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i siguran sam da svatko od nas
03:00
present here today can think of at least one person,
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ovdje danas može se sjetiti bar jedne osobe,
03:03
at least one person, who's affected by mental illness
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bar jedne osobe, koja pati od mentalne bolesti
03:07
in our most intimate social networks.
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u našim najintimnijim društvenim mrežama.
03:11
I see some nodding heads there.
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Vidim neke koji kimaju glavama tamo.
03:14
But beyond the staggering numbers,
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Ali osim zapanjujućih brojeva,
03:17
what's truly important from a global health point of view,
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što je uistinu bitno iz globalnog zdravstvenog pogleda,
03:20
what's truly worrying from a global health point of view,
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što je uistinu zabrinjavajuće iz globalnog zdravstvenog pogleda
03:23
is that the vast majority of these affected individuals
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je to što velika većina tih pojedinaca koji pate
03:26
do not receive the care
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ne dobije njegu
03:28
that we know can transform their lives, and remember,
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za koju znamo da može promijeniti njihove živote, i zapamtite,
03:30
we do have robust evidence that a range of interventions,
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imamo snažne dokaze da mnoge intervencije,
03:34
medicines, psychological interventions,
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lijekovi, psihološke intervencije
03:36
and social interventions, can make a vast difference.
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i društvene intervencije mogu napraviti veliku razliku.
03:39
And yet, even in the best-resourced countries,
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A ipak, čak i u najbogatijim državama,
03:42
for example here in Europe, roughly 50 percent
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na primjer ovdje u Europi, otprilike 50%
03:45
of affected people don't receive these interventions.
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ljudi koji pate, ne pruži im se takva intervencija.
03:48
In the sorts of countries I work in,
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U državama u kojima radim,
03:50
that so-called treatment gap
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ta takozvana razlika u tretmanu
03:52
approaches an astonishing 90 percent.
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približava se zapanjujućih 90%.
03:57
It isn't surprising, then, that if you should speak
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Nije iznenađujuće onda da ako pričate
04:00
to anyone affected by a mental illness,
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s nekim tko pati od duševne bolesti,
04:03
the chances are that you will hear stories
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šanse da ćete čuti priče
04:06
of hidden suffering, shame and discrimination
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o skrivenoj patnji, sramu i diskriminaciji
04:10
in nearly every sector of their lives.
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u skoro svakom dijelu njihovog života.
04:13
But perhaps most heartbreaking of all
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Ali možda najsrceparajuće od svih
04:15
are the stories of the abuse
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su priče o zloporabi
04:18
of even the most basic human rights,
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čak i najosnovnijih ljudskih prava,
04:21
such as the young woman shown in this image here
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poput mlade žene prikazane na ovoj slici
04:23
that are played out every day,
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koje se događaju svaki dan,
04:25
sadly, even in the very institutions that were built to care
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nažalost, čak i u samim institucijama koje su sagrađene za njegu
04:29
for people with mental illnesses, the mental hospitals.
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za ljude s duševnim bolestima, u bolnicama za duševno bolesne.
04:33
It's this injustice that has really driven my mission
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Ta nepravda je ono što je zapravo vodilo moju misiju
04:36
to try to do a little bit to transform the lives
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da pokušam učiniti nešto da promijenim živote
04:39
of people affected by mental illness, and a particularly
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ljudi koji pate od duševnih bolesti i posebno
04:41
critical action that I focused on is to bridge the gulf
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kritična akcija na koju sam se usredotočio je premostiti jaz
04:45
between the knowledge we have that can transform lives,
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između znanja koje imamo koje može promijeniti živote,
04:48
the knowledge of effective treatments, and how we actually
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znanja učinkovitog tretmana i kako zapravo
04:50
use that knowledge in the everyday world.
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koristimo to znanje u svakodnevnom svijetu.
04:54
And an especially important challenge that I've had to face
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I jako bitan izazov s kojim sam se morao suočiti
04:57
is the great shortage of mental health professionals,
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je veliki nedostatak profesionalaca koji se bave duševnim bolestima,
05:00
such as psychiatrists and psychologists,
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poput psihijatara i psihologa,
05:02
particularly in the developing world.
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pogotovo u svijetu koji se razvija.
05:04
Now I trained in medicine in India, and after that
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Obučen sam za medicinu u Indiji i nakon toga
05:07
I chose psychiatry as my specialty, much to the dismay
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sam odabrao psihijatriju kao svoju specijalizaciju, na zaprepaštenje
05:11
of my mother and all my family members who
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moje majke i svih svojih članova obitelji koji su
05:13
kind of thought neurosurgery would be
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nekako mislili da bi neurokirurgija bio
05:14
a more respectable option for their brilliant son.
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puno ugledniji izbor za njihovog briljantnog sina.
05:18
Any case, I went on, I soldiered on with psychiatry,
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U svakom slučaju, nastavio sam, borio sam se s psihijatrijom
05:20
and found myself training in Britain in some of
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i našao se trenirajući u Britaniji u nekima od
05:23
the best hospitals in this country. I was very privileged.
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najboljih bolnica u ovoj državi. Bio sam vrlo privilegiran.
05:25
I worked in a team of incredibly talented, compassionate,
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Radio sam u timu nevjerojatno talentiranih, suosjećajnih,
05:29
but most importantly, highly trained, specialized
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ali najvažnije, vrhunski obučenih, specijaliziranih
05:32
mental health professionals.
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profesionalaca za duševne bolesti.
05:34
Soon after my training, I found myself working
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Ubrzo nakon moje obuke, našao sam se radeći
05:36
first in Zimbabwe and then in India, and I was confronted
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prvo u Zimbabveu i onda u Indiji te sam se suočio
05:38
by an altogether new reality.
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s potpuno novom stvanošću.
05:41
This was a reality of a world in which there were almost no
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To je bila stvarnost svijeta u kojem nije bilo skoro uopće
05:45
mental health professionals at all.
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profesionalaca za duševne bolesti.
05:47
In Zimbabwe, for example, there were just about
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U Zimbabveu, na primjer, bilo je otprilike
05:49
a dozen psychiatrists, most of whom lived and worked
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12 psihijatara, od kojih je većina živjela i radila
05:52
in Harare city, leaving only a couple
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u gradu Harare, ostavljajući samo par njih
05:54
to address the mental health care needs
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da se bave potrebama njege duševnog zdravlja
05:57
of nine million people living in the countryside.
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9 milijuna ljudi koji žive na selu.
06:00
In India, I found the situation was not a lot better.
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U Indiji sam saznao da situacija nije puno bolja.
06:04
To give you a perspective, if I had to translate
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Kako bih vam dao perspektivu, kad bih trebao prevesti
06:06
the proportion of psychiatrists in the population
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proporcije psihijarata u populaciji
06:09
that one might see in Britain to India,
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koju možete vidjeti u Britaniji na Indiju,
06:11
one might expect roughly 150,000 psychiatrists in India.
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netko bi očekivao otprilike 150.000 psihijatara u Indiji.
06:17
In reality, take a guess.
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U stvarnosti, pogađajte.
06:20
The actual number is about 3,000,
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Stvaran broj je oko 3.000,
06:22
about two percent of that number.
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oko 2% tog broja.
06:25
It became quickly apparent to me that I couldn't follow
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Postalo mi je ubrzo jasno da neću moći pratiti
06:27
the sorts of mental health care models that I had been trained in,
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vrstu modela duševne zdravstvene njege u kojoj sam obučen,
06:30
one that relied heavily on specialized, expensive
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koja se jako oslanjala na specijalizirane, skupe
06:33
mental health professionals to provide mental health care
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profesionalce za duševno zdravlje koji bi pružali njegu duševno bolesnima
06:36
in countries like India and Zimbabwe.
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u državama poput Indije ili Zimbabvea.
06:38
I had to think out of the box about some other model
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Morao sam razmišljati van kutije o nekom drugom modelu
06:41
of care.
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njege.
06:42
It was then that I came across these books,
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Tad sam naletio na ove knjige
06:45
and in these books I discovered the idea of task shifting
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i u tim knjigama otkrio ideju izmjenjivanja zadataka
06:49
in global health.
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u globalnom zdravstvu.
06:51
The idea is actually quite simple. The idea is,
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Ideja je zapravo vrlo jednostavna. Ideja je,
06:53
when you're short of specialized health care professionals,
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kad imate manjak specijaliziranih profesionalaca za zdravlje,
06:56
use whoever is available in the community,
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koristite bilo kog tko je slobodan u zajednici,
06:59
train them to provide a range of health care interventions,
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obučite ga da pruža raznolike zdravstvene intervencije,
07:02
and in these books I read inspiring examples,
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i u ovim knjigama sam pročitao inspirirajuće primjere,
07:05
for example of how ordinary people had been trained
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na primjer kako obični ljudi koji su obučeni
07:08
to deliver babies,
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porađati djecu,
07:09
diagnose and treat early pneumonia, to great effect.
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dijagnosticirati i liječiti ranu upalu pluća, uz velik učinak.
07:13
And it struck me that if you could train ordinary people
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I shvatio sam da ako možete obučiti obične ljude
07:16
to deliver such complex health care interventions,
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da pružaju tako složene zdravstvene intervencije,
07:18
then perhaps they could also do the same
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onda bi možda mogli također napraviti isto
07:20
with mental health care.
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s njegom za duševne bolesti.
07:22
Well today, I'm very pleased to report to you
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Danas mi je veliko zadovoljstvo izvijestiti vas
07:25
that there have been many experiments in task shifting
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da su bili mnogi eksperimenti u izmijeni zadataka
07:28
in mental health care across the developing world
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u njezi za duševno bolesne u zemljama u razvoju
07:31
over the past decade, and I want to share with you
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u zadnjem desetljeću i želim podijeliti s vama
07:33
the findings of three particular such experiments,
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nalaze tri određena takva eksperimenta,
07:35
all three of which focused on depression,
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sva tri su se usredotočila na depresiju,
07:37
the most common of all mental illnesses.
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najčešću od svih duševnih bolesti.
07:40
In rural Uganda, Paul Bolton and his colleagues,
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U ruralnoj Ugandi, Paul Bolton i njegovi kolege
07:43
using villagers, demonstrated that they could deliver
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koristeći stanovnike sela, demonstrirali su da mogu pružati
07:47
interpersonal psychotherapy for depression
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međusobnu psihoterapiju za depresiju
07:49
and, using a randomized control design,
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i koristeći dizajn nasumične kontrole,
07:52
showed that 90 percent of the people receiving
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pokazali da 90% ljudi koji su primili
07:54
this intervention recovered as compared
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takve intervencije su se oporavili uspoređeno
07:56
to roughly 40 percent in the comparison villages.
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s otprilike 40% u sličnim selima.
08:00
Similarly, using a randomized control trial in rural Pakistan,
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Slično, koristeći ispitivanje nasumične kontrole u ruralnom Pakistanu,
08:04
Atif Rahman and his colleagues showed
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Atif Rahman i njegovi kolege pokazali su
08:06
that lady health visitors, who are community maternal
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da žene koje povremeno pomažu u zdravstvenom radu, koje su društvene zdravstvene radnice za majke
08:09
health workers in Pakistan's health care system,
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u pakistanskom zdravstvenom sustavu,
08:12
could deliver cognitive behavior therapy for mothers
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mogu pružiti terapiju za kognitivno ponašanje za majke
08:14
who were depressed, again showing dramatic differences
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koje su bile depresivne, opet pokazujući dramatičnu razliku
08:17
in the recovery rates. Roughly 75 percent of mothers
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u brzini oporavka. Otprilike 75% majki
08:19
recovered as compared to about 45 percent
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se oporavilo uspoređujući s 45%
08:22
in the comparison villages.
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u sličnim selima.
08:24
And in my own trial in Goa, in India, we again showed
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. I u mom vlastitom testiranju u Goi, u Indiji, opet smo pokazali
08:27
that lay counselors drawn from local communities
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da savjetnici laici uzeti iz lokalnih zajednica
08:30
could be trained to deliver psychosocial interventions
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mogu biti obučeni da pruže psihološku intervenciju
08:33
for depression, anxiety, leading to 70 percent
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za depresiju, tjeskobu, dovodeći do 70%
08:35
recovery rates as compared to 50 percent
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većih razina oporavka uspoređujući s 50%
08:37
in the comparison primary health centers.
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u sličnim primanim zdravstvenim centrima.
08:40
Now, if I had to draw together all these different
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Kad bih trebao prikazati sve ove različite
08:42
experiments in task shifting, and there have of course
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eksperimente u izmjeni zadataka, a naravno
08:45
been many other examples, and try and identify
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da je bilo još mnogo takvih primjera, i pokušao identificirati
08:47
what are the key lessons we can learn that makes
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koje su ključne lekcije koje možemo naučiti da mogu dovesti
08:49
for a successful task shifting operation,
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do uspješnog pogona izmjene zadataka,
08:52
I have coined this particular acronym, SUNDAR.
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skovao sam poseban akronim, SUNDAR.
08:56
What SUNDAR stands for, in Hindi, is "attractive."
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Što SUNDAR predstavlja, u hindiju, je "privlačan".
09:01
It seems to me that there are five key lessons
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Čini mi se da postoji 5 ključnih lekcija
09:03
that I've shown on this slide that are critically important
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koje sam prikazao na ovom slajdu koji su kritično bitni
09:05
for effective task shifting.
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za učinkovito izmjenjivanje zadataka.
09:08
The first is that we need to simplify the message
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Prva je da moramo pojednostaviti poruku
09:11
that we're using, stripping away all the jargon
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koju koristimo, skidajući sav žargon
09:13
that medicine has invented around itself.
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koji je medicina izmislila oko sebe.
09:16
We need to unpack complex health care interventions
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Trebamo otpakirati složene zdravstvene intervencije
09:19
into smaller components that can be more easily
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u manje dijelove koji se mogu mnogo lakše
09:21
transferred to less-trained individuals.
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prenijeti manje obučenim pojedincima.
09:24
We need to deliver health care, not in large institutions,
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Moramo pružati zdravstvenu njegu, ne u velikim institucijama,
09:27
but close to people's homes, and we need to deliver
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već blizu domova, a moramo i pružiti
09:29
health care using whoever is available and affordable
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zdravstvenu njegu koristeći bilo kog tko je dostupan i kog se može priuštiti
09:32
in our local communities.
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u našoj lokalnoj zajednici.
09:34
And importantly, we need to reallocate the few specialists
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I najbitnije, moramo preraspodijeliti tih par specijalista
09:37
who are available to perform roles
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koji su dostupni da izvrše uloge
09:39
such as capacity-building and supervision.
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poput povećanja kapaciteta i nadgledanja.
09:42
Now for me, task shifting is an idea
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Za mene, izmjena zadataka je ideja
09:45
with truly global significance,
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s istinskim globalnim značenjem
09:48
because even though it has arisen out of the
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jer iako se izrodilo iz
09:50
situation of the lack of resources that you find
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manjka resursa koje možete naći
09:54
in developing countries, I think it has a lot of significance
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u razvojnim državama, mislim da ima jako puno značaja
09:57
for better-resourced countries as well. Why is that?
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i za bogatije države. Zašto je tako?
10:00
Well, in part, because health care in the developed world,
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Pa, dijelom, jer zdravstvena njega u razvijenom svijetu,
10:03
the health care costs in the [developed] world,
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troškovi zdravstvene njege u [razvijenom] svijetu,
10:06
are rapidly spiraling out of control, and a huge chunk
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polako izmiču kontroli, i velik dio
10:08
of those costs are human resource costs.
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tih troškova su troškovi ljudskih resursa.
10:12
But equally important is because health care has become
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Ali jednako bitno je zato što je zdravstvena njega postala
10:14
so incredibly professionalized that it's become very remote
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tako nevjerojatno profesionalizirana da je postala jako udaljena
10:18
and removed from local communities.
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i pomaknuta iz lokalnih zajednica.
10:21
For me, what's truly sundar about the idea of task shifting,
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Za mene, što je zbilja sundar kod ove ideje izmjene zadataka,
10:24
though, isn't that it simply makes health care
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ipak, nije to što jednostavno čini zdravstvenu njegu
10:26
more accessible and affordable but that
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pristupačnom i povoljnom već
10:29
it is also fundamentally empowering.
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što temeljno ojačava.
10:32
It empowers ordinary people to be more effective
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Ojačava obične ljude da budu učinkovitiji
10:35
in caring for the health of others in their community,
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u brizi za zdravlje drugih u svojoj zajednici,
10:38
and in doing so, to become better guardians
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i radeći to, postanu bolji čuvari
10:40
of their own health. Indeed, for me, task shifting
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svog vlastitog zdravlja. Doista, za mene, izmjena zadataka
10:43
is the ultimate example of the democratization
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je krajnji primjer demokratizacije
10:46
of medical knowledge, and therefore, medical power.
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medicinskog znanja, i time, medicinske moći.
10:51
Just over 30 years ago, the nations of the world assembled
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Prije samo 30 godina, narodi svijeta su se okupili
10:54
at Alma-Ata and made this iconic declaration.
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u Alma-Ati i stvorili ovu ikoničnu deklaraciju.
10:57
Well, I think all of you can guess
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Ali, mislim da svi vi možete nagađati
10:59
that 12 years on, we're still nowhere near that goal.
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da 12 godina što smo uključeni, nismo nigdje blizu tog cilja.
11:03
Still, today, armed with that knowledge
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I dalje, danas, naoružani tim znanjem
11:05
that ordinary people in the community
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da obični ljudi u zajednici
11:08
can be trained and, with sufficient supervision and support,
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mogu biti obučeni i, s dovoljno nadgledanja i potpore,
11:11
can deliver a range of health care interventions effectively,
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mogu pružiti velik broj zdravstvenih intervencija učinkovito,
11:14
perhaps that promise is within reach now.
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možda je to obećanje u dosegu.
11:18
Indeed, to implement the slogan of Health for All,
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Doista, kako bismo implementirali slogan Zdravlje za Sve,
11:22
we will need to involve all
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morat ćemo uključiti sve
11:24
in that particular journey,
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u tom putovanju,
11:25
and in the case of mental health, in particular we would
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i u slučaju duševnog zdravlja, posebno
11:28
need to involve people who are affected by mental illness
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bismo morali uključiti ljude koji pate od duševnih bolesti
11:31
and their caregivers.
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i njihove skrbnike.
11:33
It is for this reason that, some years ago,
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Zbog tog razloga, prije par godina,
11:35
the Movement for Global Mental Health was founded
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Pokret za Globalno Duševno Zdravlje je osnovan
11:37
as a sort of a virtual platform upon which professionals
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kao vrsta virtualne platforme na kojoj bi profesionalci
11:41
like myself and people affected by mental illness
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poput mene i ljudi koji pate od duševnih bolesti
11:44
could stand together, shoulder-to-shoulder,
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mogli stajati zajedno, rame uz rame,
11:47
and advocate for the rights of people with mental illness
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i zagovarati prava ljudi s duševnim bolestima
11:49
to receive the care that we know can transform their lives,
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da prime njegu koju znamo da može promijeniti njihove živote,
11:52
and to live a life with dignity.
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i da žive život dostojanstveno.
11:55
And in closing, when you have a moment of peace or quiet
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I za kraj, kad imate trenutak mira ili tišine
11:59
in these very busy few days or perhaps afterwards,
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ovih vrlo zaposlenih par dana ili možda kasnije,
12:02
spare a thought for that person you thought about
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izdvojite misao za onu osobu na koju ste mislili
12:05
who has a mental illness, or persons that you thought about
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koja ima duševnu bolest ili osobe na koje ste mislili
12:07
who have mental illness,
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koje imaju duševnu bolest,
12:09
and dare to care for them. Thank you. (Applause)
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i usudite se brinuti za njih. Hvala vam.
12:13
(Applause)
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(Pljesak)
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