Grief and love in the animal kingdom | Barbara J. King

82,449 views ・ 2019-08-01

TED


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譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Amanda Chu
00:12
I'd like to tell you today about an orca named Tahlequah.
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今天,我要跟各位談 一隻虎鲸,叫做塔勒闊。
00:17
Tahlequah is also known as J35 to scientists,
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塔勒闊也就是科學家所知的 J35,
00:21
because she swims with the J Pod in the Salish Sea.
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牠和 J 集群在薩利希海中 游在一起,因而得到這個代號。
00:24
These are the waters off of British Columbia and Washington State.
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這些是英屬哥倫比亞省 和華盛頓州外的水域。
00:28
Now, last year, in July 2018,
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去年,2018 年七月,
00:32
she was well along in her 17-month pregnancy,
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牠帶著十七個月的身孕,
00:36
and scientists were very excited
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科學家很興奮,
00:38
because no baby had survived in this pod for three long years.
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因為三年來這個集群 都沒有寶寶能存活下來。
00:44
Now, orcas are also known as killer whales.
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虎鯨也就是大家所知的殺人鯨。
00:47
They're profoundly social and profoundly intelligent beings.
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牠們是非常社會化 且非常聰明的生物。
00:52
And scientists are very interested in their behavior,
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科學家對牠們的行為很感興趣,
00:55
because in their social networks, they share habits, information
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因為在牠們的社交網路中,
牠們有共同的習慣、 分享資訊,並互有感情。
00:59
and even affection.
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01:00
They create true cultures of the ocean.
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牠們創造出真正的海洋文化。
01:04
But this pod has been in trouble.
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但,這集群一直都陷在麻煩中。
01:08
The Chinook salmon that the orcas favor has been way down in the region,
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在這個區域中,虎鯨 喜愛的帝王鮭大量減少,
01:12
and pollution has been up.
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且污染越來越嚴重。
01:15
But on July 24th, Tahlequah gave birth to a daughter,
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但,七月二十四日, 塔勒闊產下了一個女兒,
01:20
and scientists were so excited by this development.
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這項進展讓科學家好興奮。
01:24
But unfortunately, the same day -- in fact, shortly after birth --
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但,不幸的是,同一天—— 事實上,是才出生後不久——
01:28
the calf died.
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幼鯨就死了。
01:31
Well, what happened next electrified animal lovers
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接下來發生的事,
震驚了全世界熱愛動物的人士,
01:34
across the world,
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01:35
because Tahlequah refused to let her baby slip off into the water.
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因為塔勒闊拒絕 讓牠的寶寶滑落水中。
01:40
She kept it on her body and she swam with it.
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牠游泳時都一直帶著寶寶。
01:43
If it did fall off, she would dive and rescue it,
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如果寶寶掉下去了, 牠就會潛下去將寶寶救回來,
01:47
and she battled stiff currents to do this.
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要做到這一點, 牠還得對抗強大的水流。
01:51
Now, she kept this behavior up
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她持續這個行為
01:53
for 17 days,
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長達十七天,
01:56
and during this time, she swam over 1,000 miles.
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在這段期間, 她游了超過一千英里。
02:00
At that point, she let the little baby slip off into the water.
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那時,牠疲憊到只好放手 讓寶寶滑落水中。
02:04
So today, Tahlequah swims on with the J Pod,
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現今,塔勒闊繼續 和 J 集群游在一起,
02:09
but her grief still moves me.
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但她的悲慟感動了我。
02:12
And I do believe that "grief" is the right word to use.
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我相信「悲慟」是正確的用詞。
02:16
I believe that grief is the right word to use
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我相信,對於許多種 會哀悼死亡的動物,
02:18
for numerous animals who mourn the dead.
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悲慟都是正確的用詞。
02:21
They may be friends or mates or relatives.
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牠們可能是朋友、 另一半,或親戚。
02:25
Because these visible cues, these behavioral cues,
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因為這些看得到的線索和行為線索
02:28
tell us something about an animal's emotional state.
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會告訴我們動物 情緒狀態的相關資訊。
02:32
Now, for the last seven years,
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在過去七年間,
02:34
I've been working to document examples of animal grief --
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我一直努力在記錄 動物悲慟的例子——
02:37
in birds, in mammals,
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包括鳥類、哺乳類動物、
02:39
in domesticated animals and in wild animals --
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被馴養的動物,以及野生動物——
02:42
and I believe in the reality of animal grief.
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我相信動物會悲慟是真的。
02:46
Now, I say it this way
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我用這種方式來說,
02:48
because I need to acknowledge to you right up front
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是因為我得要在事前 先向大家承認,
02:50
that not all scientists agree with me.
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並非所有的科學家都認同我。
02:53
And part of the reason, I think,
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我認為,有部分是因為我所謂的 「A 開頭的字」。
02:55
is because of what I call the "a-word."
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02:58
The a-word is anthropomorphism,
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這個字就是「擬人論」,
03:00
and historically, it's been a big deterrent
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在歷史上,一直都有人在強力阻撓 我們認可動物是有情緒的。
03:02
to recognizing animal emotions.
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03:05
So, anthropomorphism is when we project onto other animals
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所以,擬人論指的就是
人類把自己的能力或情緒 投射到其他動物身上。
03:09
our capacities or our emotions.
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03:12
And we can all probably think of examples of this.
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我們都可以想得出擬人論的例子。
03:16
Let's say we have a friend who tells us,
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比如,有位朋友告訴我們:
03:18
"My cat understands everything I say."
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「我說的話我的貓都聽得懂。」
03:22
Or, "My dog, he's so sweet.
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或「我的狗,牠好可愛。
03:25
he ran right across the yard this morning towards a squirrel,
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今天早上牠跑過院子 衝向一隻松鼠,
03:28
and I know he just wants to play."
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我知道牠是想要去玩。」
03:30
Well, maybe.
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嗯,也許是吧。
03:32
Or maybe not.
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也許不是。
03:33
I'm skeptical about claims like those.
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對於那樣的說法,我抱持懷疑。
03:37
But animal grief is different,
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但動物的悲慟不同,
03:39
because we're not trying to read an animal's mind.
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因為我們並不是 在試圖讀動物的心。
03:42
We're looking at visible cues of behavior
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我們是在觀察行為中的可見線索,
03:44
and trying to interpret them with some meaning.
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試圖詮釋這些線索, 賦予它們意義。
03:47
Now, it's true -- scientists often push back at me,
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科學家真的常會反對我,
03:50
and they'll say,
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他們會說:
03:51
"Ah, look, the animal might be stressed,
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「啊,看哪,這動物 可能受到壓力,
03:53
or maybe the animal's just confused
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也許牠只是很困惑,
03:55
because his or her routine has been disrupted."
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因為牠的日常慣例被打斷了。」
03:58
But I think that this overworry about anthropomorphism
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但,我認為這種 對擬人論的過度操心
04:03
misses a fundamental point.
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搞錯了重點。
04:05
And that is that animals can care very deeply for each other,
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重點是動物能夠 對彼此有很深的關懷,
04:09
maybe they even love each other.
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也許牠們甚至會愛彼此。
04:11
And when they do,
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如果牠們有愛,
04:12
a survivor's heart can be pierced by a death.
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存活者就有可能 會因為死者而心碎。
04:17
Let's face it:
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咱們要面對現實:
04:18
if we deny evolutionary continuity,
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如果我們否認演化的連續性,
04:21
we are really missing out on embracing part of ourselves.
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我們其實是錯失了我們自己 懂得包容的那一部分。
04:25
So yes, I believe in the reality of animal grief,
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所以,是的,我相信 動物會悲慟是真的,
04:28
and I also think that if we recognize it,
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我也認為,如果 我們能承認這一點,
04:30
we can make the world a better place for animals,
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我們就能讓世界成為 對動物而言更好的地方,
04:33
a kinder place for animals.
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對動物而言更仁慈的地方。
04:36
So let me tell you a little bit more about animal grief.
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所以,讓我再跟各位 多談一些動物的悲慟。
04:40
I'm going to start in Kenya.
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我要從肯亞開始。
04:43
You see here there's an elephant named Eleanor
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各位在這裡看到的是 叫做伊莉諾的大象,
04:45
who came one day with bruised legs,
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有一天,牠出現時腿上都是瘀傷,
04:48
and she collapsed.
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牠倒下了。
04:50
You see on the left
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請看左邊,
04:52
that another female named Grace came to her right away
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另一隻母象葛雷絲 馬上來到牠身邊,
04:55
and, using her own trunk, propped her up,
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想用牠的鼻子將伊莉諾支撐起來,
04:58
tried to get her up on her feet.
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好讓伊莉諾再站起來。
05:00
And she did succeed,
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牠的確成功了,
05:01
but then Eleanor collapsed again.
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但,接著,伊莉諾又倒下了。
05:04
At this point, Grace became visibly distressed,
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此時,看得出來葛雷絲很苦惱,
05:07
and she prodded the body, and she vocalized.
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牠去推伊莉諾的身體, 牠發出了叫聲。
05:11
Eleanor collapsed again,
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伊莉諾又倒下了,
05:13
and unfortunately, she did die.
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不幸的是,牠後來的確死了。
05:16
What you see on the right is a female from another family named Maui,
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各位可以看到,右邊的是 另一個家庭中的母象毛莉,
05:20
who came after the death, and she stayed at the body.
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牠在伊莉諾死後才抵達, 並待在屍體旁。
05:23
She held a vigil there, and she even rocked in distress
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牠在那裡守夜,甚至圍著屍體,
悲傷地晃動。
05:27
over the body.
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05:28
So the scientists watching the elephants
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所以,科學家看著這些大象
05:31
kept close observation on Eleanor's body
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密切觀察著伊莉諾的身體,
05:34
for seven days.
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長達七天。
05:36
And during those seven days,
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在那七天中,
05:37
a parade of elephants came
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有一大堆大象到來,
05:39
from five different families.
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牠們來自五個不同的家庭。
05:42
Now, some were just curious,
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有些大象只是好奇,
05:44
but others carried out behaviors
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但其他大象的行為,
05:45
that I really believe should be classified as grief.
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我真心認為應該 被歸為悲慟的行為。
05:50
So what does grief look like?
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所以,悲慟看起來是什麼樣子?
05:52
It can be rocking, as I said, in distress.
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如我之前說的, 可能是悲痛地搖動。
05:55
It can also be social withdrawal,
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可能會是社會退縮,
05:57
when an animal just takes himself or herself away from friends
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也就是遠離其他朋友,
06:01
and stays by themselves,
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自己獨處,
06:04
or a failure to eat or sleep properly,
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或是飲食睡眠不正常,
06:07
sometimes a depressed posture or vocalization.
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有時會有沮喪的姿勢或叫聲。
06:11
It can be very helpful for those of us studying this
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這些對我們的研究很有幫助,
06:14
to be able to compare the behavior of a survivor before death
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我們能夠去比較 在動物死前和死後,
生存者的行為差異,
06:18
and after death,
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06:19
because that increases the rigor of our interpretation.
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那就能讓我們的詮釋更精確。
06:23
And I can explain this to you
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我可以跟各位談談兩隻鴨子,
06:25
by talking about two ducks named Harper and Kohl.
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哈波和柯爾,來解釋這一點。
06:30
So we're into birds now.
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所以,現在要談鳥類了。
06:32
So Harper and Kohl were raised at a foie gras factory,
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哈波和柯爾在鴨肝醬工廠被養大,
06:35
and they were treated cruelly.
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牠們受到的待遇很殘忍。
06:37
Foie gras does involve force-feeding of birds.
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鴨肝醬的製造涉及強迫餵食。
06:40
So this hurt their bodies, and their spirits were not in good shape, either.
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所以,這麼做會傷害牠們的身體, 牠們的精神也不會在多好的狀態。
06:44
But thankfully, they were rescued by a farm sanctuary in upstate New York.
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但,謝天謝地,紐約北部的 一間農場庇護所拯救了牠們。
06:49
And for four years, they stabilized, and they were fast friends.
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四年來,牠們穩定下來, 牠們是很緊密的朋友。
06:53
They often took themselves to a small pond on the property.
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牠們通常會一起去 農場上的一個小池塘。
06:57
Then, Kohl started to have really intractable pain in his legs,
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接著,柯爾的腳開始 出現治不好的疼痛,
07:01
and it was clear to the sanctuary that he had to be euthanized humanely,
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庇護所很清楚知道, 必須要將牠人道安樂死,
07:05
and he was.
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也確實這麼做了。
07:07
But then the sanctuary workers did a brilliant thing,
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但,接著,庇護所的員工 做了一件很棒的事,
07:09
because they brought Harper to the body to see.
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因為他們帶哈波去看屍體。
07:14
And at first, Harper prodded the body of his friend,
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一開始,哈波試著 去戳牠的朋友的屍體,
07:17
but then he laid himself over it,
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但接著,牠躺在屍體上,
07:20
and he stayed there for over an hour with his friend.
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牠在那裡陪牠的朋友 超過一個小時。
07:23
And in the weeks after,
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之後的幾週,
07:26
he had a hard time.
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牠過得很艱苦。
07:28
He would go back to that same pond where he had been with Kohl,
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牠還會回到以前跟柯爾 一起去的那個池塘,
07:31
and he didn't want any other friends.
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且牠並不想要其他朋友。
07:34
And within two months, he died as well.
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在兩個月內,牠也死亡了。
07:38
Now, I'm happy to say
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我很高興能說,
07:39
that not all grieving animals have this sorrowful outcome.
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並非所有悲慟的動物 都會有這種悲傷的結果。
07:43
Last summer, I flew to Boston to visit my adult daughter, Sarah.
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去年夏天,我飛到波士頓 拜訪我已經成年的女兒莎菈。
07:48
I was with my husband Charlie.
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我和我先生查理一起去。
07:49
I really needed a break from work.
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我真的需要從工作中喘口氣。
07:53
But I succumbed, and I checked my work email.
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但我忍不住去查看了 我工作用的電子郵件信箱。
07:57
You know how that is.
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你們能懂的。
07:58
And there was a communication about a dejected donkey.
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信箱中有則和一隻沮喪的驢子 有關的通信內容。
08:03
Now, as an anthropologist, this wasn't what I expected,
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身為人類學者, 這並非在我的預期之中,
08:05
but there it was, and I'm glad I read it.
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但事實擺在眼前, 且我很高興我讀了信。
08:07
Because a donkey named Lena had gone to another farm sanctuary,
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因為,一隻叫做蓮娜的驢子 去了另一間農場庇護所,
08:12
this one in Alberta, Canada,
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位在加拿大的亞伯達省,
08:14
as the only donkey there,
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牠是那裡唯一的驢子,
08:17
and had trouble making friends for that reason.
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因此很難交朋友。
08:19
But she eventually did make friends with an older horse named Jake,
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但,最終,牠和傑克, 一匹較年長的馬,成為朋友,
08:23
and for three years they were inseparable.
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三年來,牠們形影不離。
08:26
But the reason the email came was that Jake, at age 32, the horse,
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但我收到信的原因是 因為傑克在三十二歲時,
這匹馬生了重病,必須要被安樂死,
08:30
had become gravely ill and had to be put down,
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08:33
and this is what was going on.
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結果就是這樣:
08:36
This is Lena standing on Jake's grave.
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這是蓮娜,站在傑克的墓旁。
08:39
She didn't want to come in at night. She didn't want to come in for food.
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牠晚上也不想進來。
而且不進來吃東西、不進來喝水。
08:42
She didn't want to come in for water.
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08:44
She pawed at the grave, she brayed in distress,
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牠用腳拍打墓地, 牠發出悲痛的叫聲,
08:47
and there she stood.
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牠就站在那裡。
08:50
So we talked and we brainstormed.
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所以,我們進行討論,腦力激盪。
08:52
What do you do for an animal like this?
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我們能為這樣的動物做什麼?
08:55
And we talked about the role of time,
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我們談到了時間能療傷、
08:57
of extra love and kindness from people
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從人類身上得到更多愛與仁慈,
09:00
and of urging her to make a new friend.
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以及鼓勵牠交新朋友等種種方法。
09:03
And here's where her trajectory does diverge from that of Harper the duck,
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在這個命運的十字路口, 牠走上了和哈波不同的路,
09:07
because she did make a new friend,
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因為牠交了一位新朋友,
09:09
and sanctuary workers wrote back and said it worked out well.
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庇護所的員工回信說 一切進行得很順利。
09:14
Now sometimes, scientists supplement observation
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有時,科學家會用荷爾蒙分析
09:17
with hormonal analysis.
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來輔助觀察。
09:19
There's an example of a group of scientists in Botswana,
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在波札那的一群科學家就是個例子,
09:22
who took fecal material from baboons and compared two different groups.
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他們取得狒狒的糞便, 來比較兩組不同的母狒狒。
09:27
The first group were females who had witnessed a predator attack
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第一組的母狒狒曾經 目擊過獵食者攻擊,
09:31
and lost someone in that attack,
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且在攻擊中失去過家人或朋友;
09:34
and the second group were females who had witnessed an attack
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第二組中的母狒狒曾經 目擊過獵食者攻擊,
09:36
but had not lost someone.
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但沒有在攻擊中 失去過家人或朋友。
09:38
And the stress hormones were way up in that first group.
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第一組的壓力荷爾蒙高很多。
09:41
But here's the thing:
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但,重點來了:
09:43
the scientists didn't just call them "stressed baboons,"
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科學家並不只是稱牠們為 「有壓力的狒狒」,
09:45
they called them "bereaved baboons,"
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他們稱牠們為「喪親的狒狒」,
09:48
and in part, that's because of the observations that they made.
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有部分的原因是因為 他們所觀察到的現象。
09:52
For example, this mother-daughter pair were very close,
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比如,這對母女非常親密,
09:55
and then the daughter was killed by a lion.
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女兒被一隻獅子殺害。
09:58
The mother removed herself from all her friends,
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母親遠離了牠自己的所有朋友,
10:00
from her grooming networks, and just stayed by herself for weeks --
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遠離了牠相互理毛的群體, 獨處了數星期——
10:05
bereavement --
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喪親之痛——
10:06
and she then slowly recovered.
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接著,牠慢慢地恢復。
10:11
So we have bereaved baboons.
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所以,我們知道狒狒有喪親之痛。
10:13
Will science tell us someday about bereaved bees?
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也許有一天科學會告訴我們 蜜蜂也有喪親之痛。
10:17
Will we hear about frogs who mourn?
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也許將來會聽說有會哀悼的青蛙?
10:21
I don't think so, and I think the reason is because animals really need
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我不認為,因為動物之間 必須要有一對一的密切關係,
10:25
one-to-one, close relationships for that to happen.
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才會發生這種狀況。
10:28
I also know that circumstance matters, and personality matters.
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我也知道,情境有影響, 個性也有影響。
10:33
I have documented cats and dogs who grieve,
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我曾經記錄過會悲慟的貓和狗,
10:36
our companion animals,
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我們的伴生動物,
10:38
but I also interacted with a woman who was extremely bothered
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但我也曾經遇過一名女子, 她感到極度困擾,
10:40
because her dog wasn't grieving.
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因為她的狗不會悲慟。
10:43
She said to me, "The first dog in the house has died.
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她對我說:「家中的 第一隻狗過世了,
10:47
The second animal does not seem concerned, the second dog.
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第二隻狗似乎毫不關心。
10:50
What is wrong with him?"
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牠有什麼毛病?」
10:51
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
10:53
And as I listened to her,
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當我聽她說時,
10:55
I realized that this dog was now the only animal in the household,
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我了解到,現在這隻狗 是家中唯一的動物了,
10:59
and as far as he was concerned, that was a pretty good deal.
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從牠的角度來看, 這狀況對牠很有利。
11:03
So circumstances matter.
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所以,情境有影響。
11:06
Now, in any case, animals are not going to grieve
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不論是什麼情況,動物都不會 跟我們用一模一樣的方式悲慟。
11:09
exactly like we do.
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11:11
We have human creativity.
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我們有人類的創意。
11:13
We paint our grief, dance our grief,
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我們會畫出我們的悲慟, 舞出我們的悲慟,
11:16
write our grief.
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寫出我們的悲慟。
11:18
We also can grieve for people we've never met,
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我們也能夠為從未 見過的人感到悲慟,
11:21
across space and time.
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也能跨越時間和空間地悲慟。
11:23
I felt this strongly when I went to Berlin
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當我去柏林,站在 大屠殺的紀念碑前時,
11:26
and I stood at the Holocaust Memorial.
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我能強烈感受到這一點。
11:29
Animals don't grieve exactly like we do,
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動物悲慟的方式和我們不同,
11:31
but this doesn't mean that their grief isn't real.
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但這並不表示 牠們的悲慟不是真的。
11:34
It is real, and it's searing,
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是真的,且心痛如絞,
11:37
and we can see it if we choose.
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只要我們願意,我們就能看見。
11:41
Now, I've lost both my parents.
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我已經失去了雙親。
11:43
I lost a very dear friend at a young age from AIDS.
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我失去過一位很年輕時 就因為愛滋病而過世的朋友。
11:48
I believe most likely most of you here have lost someone.
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在座各位很可能 都有失去過某個人。
11:52
And I have found it a genuine comfort,
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我覺得真的很讓人欣慰、
11:56
a solace, to know that we aren't the only beings on this earth
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很安慰的一點就是知道 地球上除了人類之外,
12:00
who feel love and grief.
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還有其他生物能感受到愛和悲慟。
12:04
And I think this is important.
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我認為這很重要。
12:06
I also think we can take this a step further,
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我也認為,我們能夠再進一步,
12:08
and we can realize that the reality of animal grief
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我們能夠了解到, 動物會悲慟的這個事實,
12:11
can help us be better and do better for animals.
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能協助我們為動物做得更好。
12:15
This is already happening with Tahlequah,
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塔勒闊的故事就已經產生效應了,
12:17
because the United States and Canada have renewed their talks with greater urgency
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因為美國和加拿大 重新開始更迫切地關注
12:22
for how to help the orcas,
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如何協助虎鯨、
12:24
how to restore the Chinook salmon
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如何恢復帝王鮭,
12:26
and how to help with the water pollution.
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以及如何協助處理水污染。
12:29
We can also see that if grief is real,
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我們也能了解,如果悲慟是真的,
12:31
there's tremendous plausibility to the notion
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那很可能表示
12:34
that animals feel a whole range of things.
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動物也有各式各樣的感覺。
12:37
So we could look at joy, sadness, even hope.
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我們可以去研究喜悅、 悲傷,甚至希望。
12:42
And if we do that,
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如果我們能這麼做,
12:44
here's how we can start to think about the world.
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我們就可以用以下的 方式來看待世界。
12:46
We can look at orcas and say,
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我們可以看著虎鯨,說:
12:48
we know they grieve, we know they feel their lives,
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我們知道牠們會悲慟, 會感受到牠們的生命,
12:51
and we can refuse to confine them to small tanks in theme parks
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我們可以拒絕將牠們 關在主題樂園的小水槽中,
12:57
and make them perform for our entertainment.
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為了娛樂人類而表演。
13:00
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
13:02
Thank you.
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謝謝。
13:04
We can look at elephants and say, yes, they grieve,
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我們可以看著大象, 說,是的,牠們會悲慟,
13:07
and we can renew our efforts against international trophy hunting
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我們可以努力對抗 國際性的戰利品獵殺,
13:11
and against poaching.
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對抗盜獵。
13:13
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
13:15
Thank you.
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謝謝。
13:16
And we can look at our closest living relatives, monkeys and apes,
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我們可以看著我們 在動物界的近親:猴子和猿類,
13:20
and know yes they grieve, they feel their lives,
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知道牠們確實會悲慟, 會感受到牠們的生命,
13:23
so they don't deserve to be confined
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所以牠們不應該被關在
13:25
in highly invasive biomedical experiments
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有高度侵入性的生物醫學實驗中,
13:29
year after year.
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年復一年。
13:31
And, you know --
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且,你們知道——
13:32
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
13:33
the ducks Harper and Kohl, they tell us something too.
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鴨子哈波和柯爾, 牠們也告訴了我們一件事。
13:37
They help us connect the dots and realize that what we eat
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牠們協助我們將點連起來, 了解到我們所吃的食物
13:41
affects how animals live.
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會影響到動物的生活。
13:43
And it's not just foie gras, and it's not just ducks.
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不只是鴨肝醬,不只是鴨子。
13:46
We can think about pigs and chickens and cows in factory farms,
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我們也可以想想看 工廠化農場中的豬、雞、牛,
13:52
and we can know.
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且我們會懂。
13:53
I can tell you the science is real that these animals feel, too.
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我可以告訴各位,科學證明 動物也有感覺,這是真的。
13:57
So every single time we choose a plant-based meal,
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所以每次我們選擇素食,
14:01
we are contributing to reducing animal suffering.
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就能對減輕動物 所受的苦難盡一份心力。
14:06
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
14:09
So yes, I believe in the reality of animal grief.
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所以,是的,我相信 動物會悲慟是真的。
14:13
I believe in the reality of animal love,
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我相信動物會愛是真的,
14:16
and I think it is time for us humans
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且我認為,該是時候了,我們人類
14:18
to recognize that we don't own these things.
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該要承認我們並不擁有牠們了。
14:21
And when we see that,
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當我們能了解這一點,
14:23
we have an opportunity to make the world so much better for animals,
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我們就有機會為動物 把世界變得更美好、
14:27
a kinder world, a gentler world,
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更仁慈、更溫柔,
14:29
and along the way, we might just save ourselves, too.
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在這個過程中,說不定 也能拯救我們自己。
14:34
Thank you so much.
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非常謝謝。
14:35
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
14:37
Thank you. Thank you.
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謝謝。謝謝。
14:39
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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