Heather Brooke: My battle to expose government corruption

221,111 views ・ 2012-10-18

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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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翻译人员: Naninaniyoo Chen 校对人员: Xiang Li
00:15
Once upon a time, the world was a big, dysfunctional family.
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很久以前,世界是个很大却不和谐的大家庭
00:21
It was run by the great and powerful parents,
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这个家庭被“伟大的”“强大的”家长们主宰着
00:24
and the people were helpless
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人们却像是淘气的孩子一样
00:26
and hopeless naughty children.
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无望、无助
00:29
If any of the more rowdier children questioned
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如果吵闹的孩子们怀疑了
00:31
the authority of the parents, they were scolded.
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家长的权威,他们就会被责骂
00:35
If they went exploring into the parents' rooms,
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如果孩子们进去探索家长的房间
00:38
or even into the secret filing cabinets, they were punished,
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或是悄悄溜进家长的秘密档案柜,他们就会被狠狠地惩罚
00:42
and told that for their own good
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家长会告诉他们,为了孩子自己,
00:45
they must never go in there again.
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以后再也不要去家长秘密的房间了。
00:48
Then one day, a man came to town
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有一天, 一个人来到了这个小镇
00:51
with boxes and boxes of secret documents
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带着一箱一箱的从家长那里偷来的
00:53
stolen from the parents' rooms.
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秘密文件
00:55
"Look what they've been hiding from you," he said.
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他说“看看家长们在背后藏了什么”
00:59
The children looked and were amazed.
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孩子们吃惊地看到
01:02
There were maps and minutes from meetings
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这些是从会议里得出的绘图和备忘录
01:05
where the parents were slagging each other off.
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而在会议里家长们互相指责对方
01:09
They behaved just like the children.
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他们的行为简直就像小孩一样!
01:11
And they made mistakes, too, just like the children.
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不但这样,他们也会像孩子一样犯错
01:15
The only difference was, their mistakes
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唯一的不同就是
01:18
were in the secret filing cabinets.
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他们的错误被藏在秘密的档案阁里
01:21
Well, there was a girl in the town, and she didn't think
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镇里有个小女孩,她并不觉得
01:23
they should be in the secret filing cabinets,
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家长的秘密应该被藏在秘密的档案阁里
01:26
or if they were, there ought to be a law
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即使藏在那里,也必须有法规
01:28
to allow the children access.
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允许孩子们知道内容
01:30
And so she set about to make it so.
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于是,她开始着手实现这个想法
01:34
Well, I'm the girl in that story, and the secret documents
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对,我就是故事里的小女孩
01:38
that I was interested in were located in this building,
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而我感兴趣的秘密就藏在这栋楼里
01:41
the British Parliament, and the data that I wanted
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那就是英国议会
01:45
to get my hands on were the expense receipts
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而我想拿到手的资料就是
01:48
of members of Parliament.
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下院议员的花费收据
01:52
I thought this was a basic question to ask in a democracy. (Applause)
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我认为这是在民主社会最基本需要知道的东西。(掌声)
01:58
It wasn't like I was asking for the code to a nuclear bunker,
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我又不是在要求知道核武器堆的密码
02:01
or anything like that, but the amount of resistance I got
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或者类似的。但是,我为了知道这冠上“信息自由”的信息,
02:04
from this Freedom of Information request,
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可是费了不少的功夫才冲破重重阻碍
02:07
you would have thought I'd asked something like this.
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其间的困难是你不能预想到的
02:10
So I fought for about five years doing this,
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我大概用了五年的时间才有今天的结果
02:14
and it was one of many hundreds of requests that I made,
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而这只是我所提出需要了解的几百种信息的中的一点
02:17
not -- I didn't -- Hey, look, I didn't set out, honestly,
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不过,我要说,我没有想要
02:20
to revolutionize the British Parliament.
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彻底改革英国议会
02:22
That was not my intention. I was just making these requests
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那根本不是我的意图,我只是在
02:25
as part of research for my first book.
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为了我出第一本书做出的一点努力
02:29
But it ended up in this very long, protracted legal battle
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但是我确意想不到的打了这么久的官司
02:32
and there I was after five years fighting against Parliament
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经过长达五年
02:36
in front of three of Britain's most eminent High Court judges
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与英国高院三位最杰出法官的较量,
02:39
waiting for their ruling about whether or not Parliament had to release this data.
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等待他们决定议会是否应该公开这些信息
02:43
And I've got to tell you, I wasn't that hopeful,
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今天我必须告诉你,原本并不是那么有希望
02:45
because I'd seen the establishment. I thought,
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因为我见证了议会的建立,我觉得
02:48
it always sticks together. I am out of luck.
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议会做事一般是不透露的。我可能没有运气找到什么吧
02:51
Well, guess what? I won. Hooray. (Applause)
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但是,你们猜猜?我胜利了。啊哈!
02:56
Well, that's not exactly the story, because the problem was
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呵呵,但我讲述的并不是很完整的故事。因为问题在于,
02:59
that Parliament delayed and delayed releasing that data,
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议会不断地拖延公布这些信息
03:03
and then they tried to retrospectively change the law
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不仅这样,他们还尝试回溯性地改变这方面的法规
03:06
so that it would no longer apply to them.
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让新法规不再适用于揭露这种信息
03:08
The transparency law they'd passed earlier that applied to everybody else,
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之前他们颁布的新“透明”法规对于其他人都适用
03:11
they tried to keep it so it didn't apply to them.
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他们试着让法规不再适用我的要求
03:14
What they hadn't counted on was digitization,
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但是他们忘记了在数据数字化上下规定
03:18
because that meant that all those paper receipts
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因为,这些纸质收据
03:20
had been scanned in electronically, and it was very easy
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已经被电子扫描过了
03:23
for somebody to just copy that entire database,
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所以要复制整个数据库是非常容易的
03:26
put it on a disk, and then just saunter outside of Parliament,
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只需要将数据装入磁盘,然后就可以悠闲地在议会楼外散步了
03:30
which they did, and then they shopped that disk
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他们就这样做了,还把装有数据的磁盘卖给了
03:33
to the highest bidder, which was the Daily Telegraph,
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出价最高的《每日电讯报》
03:36
and then, you all remember, there was weeks and weeks
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然后,你们记得的,
03:39
of revelations, everything from porn movies
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就有了周周不断地揭露,
03:42
and bath plugs and new kitchens
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从色情电影,浴盆塞,新厨房
03:45
and mortgages that had never been paid off.
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到没有还清的抵押贷款
03:49
The end result was six ministers resigned,
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最后的结果呢? 十六个部长辞职了
03:53
the first speaker of the house in 300 years was forced to resign,
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三百年内第一次有议会发言人被迫辞职
03:57
a new government was elected on a mandate of transparency,
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基于对透明化的命令,一个新的政府被选举出来
04:01
120 MPs stepped down at that election,
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120个下院议员在那场选举中也无奈下台
04:05
and so far, four MPs and two lords
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至今,四个下院议员和两个勋爵
04:10
have done jail time for fraud.
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因为作假进了监狱
04:13
So, thank you. (Applause)
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谢谢大家(鼓掌)
04:19
Well, I tell you that story because it wasn't unique to Britain.
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我告诉大家这个故事的目的是因为这个现象不只存在于英国
04:23
It was an example of a culture clash that's happening
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这只是在全球文化冲击的一个例子而已
04:27
all over the world between bewigged and bestockinged
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在世界各地,仍有无数的戴着假面具,藏着无数“秘密”
04:30
officials who think that they can rule over us
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的官员,而他们总认为
04:34
without very much prying from the public,
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自己能在公众睁一只眼闭一只眼状况下统治人民
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and then suddenly confronted with a public
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但是突然,他们得面对
04:39
who is no longer content with that arrangement,
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对这种现状不再满意的民众
04:42
and not only not content with it, now, more often,
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民众不仅对官员不满意,
04:45
armed with official data itself.
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更多时候,还对官方的数据产生怀疑
04:50
So we are moving to this democratization of information,
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我们已经进入了信息的民主化
04:55
and I've been in this field for quite a while.
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我已经研究这方面很久了
04:57
Slightly embarrassing admission: Even when I was a kid,
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实话说挺不好意思的,我小时候,
05:00
I used to have these little spy books, and I would, like,
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曾经有小小的“间谍”本子
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see what everybody was doing in my neighborhood and log it down.
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我会悄悄观察邻居们在做什么,然后把它记录下来
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I think that was a pretty good indication
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或许,那时我的行为
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about my future career as an investigative journalist,
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就为我未来职业埋下了伏笔---调查记者
05:10
and what I've seen from being in this access to information field for so long
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接触这些信息这么久,我发现
05:14
is that it used to be quite a niche interest,
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这曾只是个小众的兴趣
05:17
and it's gone mainstream. Everybody, increasingly, around the world,
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而现在已经成为主流了。
05:20
wants to know about what people in power are doing.
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越来越多的人想知道那些掌权的人们在干什么
05:23
They want a say in decisions that are made in their name
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他们想要在以他们的名义,用他们的金钱所作的决定中
05:27
and with their money. It's this democratization of information
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有发言权。我觉得正是信息民主化
05:30
that I think is an information enlightenment,
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促成这这种信息启蒙
05:33
and it has many of the same principles of the first Enlightenment.
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而且它和最初的启蒙运动在原则上有很多相似之处
05:36
It's about searching for the truth,
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都在寻找真理
05:39
not because somebody says it's true, "because I say so."
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不因为有人说这是真理,“因为我这样说”
05:43
No, it's about trying to find the truth based on
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不,这是在寻找看得见的,
05:46
what you can see and what can be tested.
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能被证实的真理
05:48
That, in the first Enlightenment, led to questions about
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在启蒙运动里,这样的探寻引出了一些疑问
05:51
the right of kings, the divine right of kings to rule over people,
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比如国王的权利,国王统治子民的神圣权利
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or that women should be subordinate to men,
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比如女人应该服从男人
05:57
or that the Church was the official word of God.
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再比如教堂就是代表上帝的地方
05:59
Obviously the Church weren't very happy about this,
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显然教会不乐意了
06:02
and they tried to suppress it,
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他们想要抑制这样的探索
06:04
but what they hadn't counted on was technology,
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但他们没预料到科技的能力
06:07
and then they had the printing press, which suddenly
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有了出版社让这些
06:09
enabled these ideas to spread cheaply, far and fast,
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想法廉价并迅速地传播到各地
06:13
and people would come together in coffee houses,
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人们聚集到咖啡屋
06:16
discuss the ideas, plot revolution.
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讨论这些想法,密谋一场信息革命
06:19
In our day, we have digitization. That strips all the physical mass out of information,
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现在我们有了数据电子化。这把信息从成堆成堆的状况下解救出来
06:23
so now it's almost zero cost to copy and share information.
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所以现在拷贝分享信息已近乎零花费
06:27
Our printing press is the Internet. Our coffee houses are social networks.
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我们的“出版社”就是网络。我们的“咖啡屋”就是社交网络。
06:31
We're moving to what I would think of as a fully connected system,
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我认为,我们已经进入完全连接的世界
06:36
and we have global decisions to make in this system,
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我们可以在这个世界做出全球化的决定
06:39
decisions about climate, about finance systems,
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做出关于气候,金融系统,以及资源分配的决定
06:42
about resources. And think about it --
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想想吧
06:46
if we want to make an important decision about buying a house,
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如果我们做买房子这样重要的决定
06:48
we don't just go off. I mean, I don't know about you,
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我们不是立即就做决定。虽然我不知道你们会不会,
06:51
but I want to see a lot of houses before I put that much money into it.
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但在投入大量资金之前我还想多看些房子
06:54
And if we're thinking about a finance system,
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如果我们在考虑金融方面的问题
06:56
we need a lot of information to take in. It's just not possible
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我们也需要很多信息。
07:00
for one person to take in the amount, the volume
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如果只让一个人了解很多信息,
07:04
of information, and analyze it to make good decisions.
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再分析信息作出决定,是不现实的
07:08
So that's why we're seeing increasingly this demand
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因此,对获取信息的要求
07:11
for access to information.
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才越来越多
07:13
That's why we're starting to see more disclosure laws
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所以我们才有了那么多的
07:16
come out, so for example, on the environment,
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公开法出现
07:18
there's the Aarhus Convention,
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比如,在环境方面,有《阿尔胡斯公约》
07:19
which is a European directive that gives people
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这个欧洲的指令给力人们巨大的信息权
07:21
a very strong right to know, so if your water company
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如果你的自来水公司
07:24
is dumping water into your river, sewage water
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倒污水到河里
07:27
into your river, you have a right to know about it.
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你有权利知道
07:30
In the finance industry, you now have more of a right
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在金融业,你有更多权利知道
07:34
to know about what's going on, so we have
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业界进展,
07:37
different anti-bribery laws, money regulations,
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有反贿赂法规,金钱规章,
07:40
increased corporate disclosure, so you can now track assets across borders.
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逐渐增加的公司透明法规,所以现在你可以跨国查看财产了
07:44
And it's getting harder to hide assets, tax avoidance,
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而私藏财产,逃税,区别薪酬是越来越难了。
07:49
pay inequality. So that's great. We're starting to find out
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这当然很好。
07:52
more and more about these systems.
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我们开始发现这个系统里面的更多信息
07:55
And they're all moving to this central system,
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他们都逐渐走向
07:58
this fully connected system,
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完全连接的系统
08:00
all of them except one. Can you guess which one?
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不过,有一点还没有。你们猜猜是什么?
08:03
It's the system which underpins all these other systems.
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那就是,这个支持其他系统的系统
08:06
It's the system by which we organize and exercise power,
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这个我们管理运用权力的系统
08:10
and there I'm talking about politics, because in politics,
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我说的就是政治,因为在政治中
08:13
we're back to this system, this top-down hierarchy.
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我们追踪回到了这个至上而下的等级制度
08:17
And how is it possible that the volume of information
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但是要从这个最高等级的系统中完全透明化信息,
08:20
can be processed that needs to in this system?
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可能么?
08:23
Well, it just can't. That's it.
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不,那是行不通的。
08:26
And I think this is largely what's behind the crisis
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我认为这很大一部分就是藏在不同政府的
08:28
of legitimacy in our different governments right now.
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息合法化危机背后的东西
08:33
So I've told you a bit about what I did
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我已经告诉了你们一些
08:35
to try and drag Parliament, kicking and screaming,
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我针对议会的做的执意争得信息权利的行动。
08:38
into the 21st century, and I'm just going to give you
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那么接下来我会
08:40
a couple of examples of what a few other people I know
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再讲述一下我认识的一些人
08:43
are doing.
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所做的事。
08:44
So this is a guy called Seb Bacon. He's a computer
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Seb Bacon这个电脑
08:47
programmer, and he built a site called Alaveteli,
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工程师做了一个叫
08:51
and what it is, it's a Freedom of Information platform.
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Alaveteli, 它是一个自由的信息平台
08:56
It's open-source, with documentation, and it allows you
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它有开放式的文件记录
08:59
to make a Freedom of Information request,
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并且你可以对公共群体提出信息自由的要求
09:02
to ask your public body a question, so
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问你想问的问题
09:05
it takes all the hassle out of it, and I can tell you
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这个网站就收集大家的“牢骚”
09:08
that there is a lot of hassle making these requests,
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通过它人们知道有很多都在提出自己的牢骚
09:10
so it takes all of that hassle out, and you just type in your question,
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你只需要输入你的问题
09:14
for example, how many police officers have a criminal record?
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比如说,“多少警察有犯罪记录?”
09:18
It zooms it off to the appropriate person, it tells you
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然后就会得到对目标的详细关注
09:22
when the time limit is coming to an end, it keeps track of all
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你还可以知道时限长度,
09:26
the correspondence, it posts it up there,
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追踪通信。一旦你把问题提出来,
09:27
and it becomes an archive of public knowledge.
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它就进入了公众视野
09:31
So that's open-source and it can be used in any country
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只要你的国家有关于信息自由的法律,
09:34
where there is some kind of Freedom of Information law.
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你就可以使用这个公开资源的网站
09:37
So there's a list there of the different countries that have it,
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现在在许多国家,这个网站已经走上正轨
09:41
and then there's a few more coming on board.
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接下来还会在更多国家开始。
09:42
So if any of you out there like the sound of that
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如果在座的任何人对此有兴趣,
09:45
and have a law like that in your country,
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并且你的国家有相关法律
09:48
I know that Seb would love to hear from you
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Seb网站期待与您
09:50
about collaborating and getting that into your country.
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和您的国家合作。
09:54
This is Birgitta Jónsdóttir. She's an Icelandic MP.
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照片上的是Birgitta Jonsdottir,她是冰岛下院议员
09:58
And quite an unusual MP. In Iceland, she was
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一个不寻常的议员。
10:02
one of the protesters who was outside of Parliament
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当冰岛的国家经济临近崩溃时,有许多人在议会外面抗议
10:05
when the country's economy collapsed,
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她便是其中一员
10:09
and then she was elected on a reform mandate,
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在改革的要求下,她成功当选
10:13
and she's now spearheading this project.
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她现在正准备操作这个项目
10:15
It's the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative,
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这就是冰岛现代媒体的行动,
10:18
and they've just got funding to make it an international
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他们刚刚得到了将之做成
10:20
modern media project, and this is taking all of the best laws
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一项国际化现代媒体项目的资金,
10:24
around the world about freedom of expression,
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项目将汇聚全球关于言论自由的法律,
10:27
protection of whistleblowers, protection from libel,
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关于保护告发者的法律,关于诽谤罪方面保护的法律
10:30
source protection, and trying to make Iceland a publishing haven.
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关于资源保护的法律。这样,冰岛将成为出版业的天堂
10:34
It's a place where your data can be free, so when we think
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在这里数据会是自由的
10:36
about, increasingly, how governments want to access user data,
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当我们越来越多地思考政府怎样接触使用数据时,
10:40
what they're trying to do in Iceland is make this safe haven
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他们就在冰岛建立了这个安全的天堂
10:43
where it can happen.
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让信息自由。
10:45
In my own field of investigative journalism, we're also
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在我自己的领域里,也就是调查性报道,
10:49
having to start thinking globally, so this is a site called
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我们也在逐渐地思考更全球化的东西
10:51
Investigative Dashboard. And if you're trying to track
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这里有个网站叫做“调查仪表盘”。如果你想要
10:54
a dictator's assets, for example, Hosni Mubarak,
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追踪一个独裁者的资产。比如说,侯赛尼•穆巴拉克(埃及总统)
10:57
you know, he's just funneling out cash from his country
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当他觉得自己有危险了,
11:01
when he knows he's in trouble, and what you want to do
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他就从自己的国家输送现金,
11:03
to investigate that is, you need to have access to
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而你就想知道这些现金的去向。
11:06
all of the world's, as many as you can,
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你会想要知道越来越多的世界上的“秘密”
11:08
companies' house registrations databases.
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像公司房屋登记的数据。
11:11
So this is a website that tries to agglomerate all of those
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这个网站试着把所有数据网罗
11:15
databases into one place so you can start searching for,
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到一个地方,只要你搜索,就能找到。
11:19
you know, his relatives, his friends, the head of his security services.
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找到他的家属,他的朋友,他的安全服务主管。
11:22
You can try and find out how he's moving out assets
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你可以清楚看到他正在
11:25
from that country.
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从那个国家转移资金。
11:28
But again, when it comes to the decisions which are
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但是,当我们谈论到最影响我们的决定,
11:31
impacting us the most, perhaps, the most important
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可能关于类似战争这种
11:34
decisions that are being made about war and so forth,
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最重要的决定时,
11:38
again we can't just make a Freedom of Information request.
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我们又不能只是提出信息自由的要求,
11:41
It's really difficult. So we're still having to rely on
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这是很困难的。所以我们仍然需要
11:44
illegitimate ways of getting information, through leaks.
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依靠非法的方式来获得信息,从漏洞中获得。
11:48
So when the Guardian did this investigation about
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当英国卫报做这个关于阿富汗战争的报道时
11:51
the Afghan War, you know, they can't walk into
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他们不能就直接走进
11:54
the Department of Defense and ask for all the information.
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国防部,索要全部信息。
11:57
You know, they're just not going to get it.
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这样做的话,是得不到的。
11:59
So this came from leaks of tens of thousands of dispatches
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这些信息都来自美国大兵写的
12:03
that were written by American soldiers
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关于阿富汗战争成千上万的急件,
12:05
about the Afghan War, and leaked,
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从这些漏洞里知道真相。
12:08
and then they're able to do this investigation.
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这样卫报才成功做了调查。
12:12
Another rather large investigation is around world diplomacy.
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另外一个大型的调查是关于全球外交的。
12:17
Again, this is all based around leaks,
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这个调查也来源于
12:20
251,000 U.S. diplomatic cables, and I was involved
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25100个美国的外交电缆里透露的信息。
12:25
in this investigation because I got this leak
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当时我也参与了调查,因为我
12:29
through a leak from a disgruntled WikiLeaker
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从一个不满的维基解密人里得到了密报,
12:32
and ended up going to work at the Guardian.
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最后到卫报里工作了。
12:35
So I can tell you firsthand what it was like to have access
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我能告诉你关于这个漏洞的第一手消息。
12:37
to this leak. It was amazing. I mean, it was amazing.
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那真的是惊人的!真是惊人啊!
12:39
It reminded me of that scene in "The Wizard of Oz."
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这让我想起了《绿野仙踪》里的场景,
12:43
Do you know the one I mean? Where the little dog Toto
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当小狗托托
12:45
runs across to where the wizard [is], and he pulls back,
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跑过巫师旁边,然后掉头回来,
12:48
the dog's pulling back the curtain, and --
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狗狗拉开了幕布
12:50
"Don't look behind the screen. Don't look at the man behind the screen."
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“不要看屏幕后面!不要看屏幕后面的人!”
12:54
It was just like that, because what you started to see
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因为当你开始看到的是
12:56
is that all of these grand statesmen, these very pompous
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那些大政治家,那些
12:59
politicians, they were just like us.
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浮夸的政治家。他们就和我们一样。
13:02
They all bitched about each other. I mean, quite gossipy,
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他们会互相说坏话。对,挺多嘴的。
13:05
those cables. Okay, but I thought it was a very important
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但我觉得这些都需要我们知道。
13:07
point for all of us to grasp, these are human beings
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他们和我们普通人没什么区别。
13:10
just like us. They don't have special powers.
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他们并不是神一样的存在,
13:12
They're not magic. They are not our parents.
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没有什么魔法。他们不是我们父母,
13:16
Beyond that, what I found most fascinating
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除了这些, 我发现最惊奇的是
13:20
was the level of endemic corruption that I saw
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不同国家的地区性腐败,
13:23
across all different countries, and particularly centered
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特别是围绕权力中心
13:26
around the heart of power, around public officials
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比如官员们
13:29
who were embezzling the public's money
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为了自己的利益,挪用公款。
13:32
for their own personal enrichment, and allowed to do that
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正是由于官方机密
13:35
because of official secrecy.
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才造成了这种情况。
13:38
So I've mentioned WikiLeaks, because surely what could be
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我刚提到了维基解密,
13:42
more open than publishing all the material?
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因为,还有比它更加公开的么?
13:44
Because that is what Julian Assange did.
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因为朱利安阿桑奇就这么做了。
13:48
He wasn't content with the way the newspapers published it
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他并不满意于
13:50
to be safe and legal. He threw it all out there.
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新闻安全、合法地发布信息的方式。他把所有的东西都倒出来了。
13:54
That did end up with vulnerable people in Afghanistan
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那的确是让一些易受攻击的阿富汗人被揭发出来
13:58
being exposed. It also meant that the Belarussian dictator
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那也表示白俄罗斯独裁者
14:01
was given a handy list of all the pro-democracy campaigners
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也面对了一批与美国政府进行过交谈的支持民主
14:05
in that country who had spoken to the U.S. government.
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进行过交谈的民主人士。
14:08
Is that radical openness? I say it's not, because for me,
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这是激进派的开放么?我觉得不是,
14:13
what it means, it doesn't mean abdicating power,
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这不是放弃权利
14:16
responsibility, accountability, it's actually being a partner
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责任,这只是在和权利同一地位的另一种力量。
14:20
with power. It's about sharing responsibility,
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这是分享责任,分享义务。
14:23
sharing accountability. Also, the fact that
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当他因为我从维基解密得到了很多泄密
14:26
he threatened to sue me because I got a leak of his leaks,
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而威胁要告我,我觉得
14:28
I thought that showed a remarkable sort of inconsistency
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那中间产生了巨大的意识主义上
14:31
in ideology, to be honest, as well. (Laughs)
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的矛盾。(笑声)
14:37
The other thing is that power is incredibly seductive,
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另外,权利真的很诱惑人。
14:40
and you must have two real qualities, I think,
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在你坐上谈判桌,当你
14:43
when you come to the table, when you're dealing
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拥有权利时,
14:45
with power, talking about power,
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你需要有
14:47
because of its seductive capacity.
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两种特质,
14:49
You've got to have skepticism and humility.
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一,怀疑的态度,二,谦卑的心态。
14:52
Skepticism, because you must always be challenging.
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怀疑是因为你一直会被挑战。
14:55
I want to see why do you -- you just say so? That's not good enough.
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如果你只是说了要这样,我觉得还不够。
14:58
I want to see the evidence behind why that's so.
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我想知道为什么这样,这样的依据是什么?
15:01
And humility because we are all human. We all make mistakes.
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谦卑是因为我们都是人都会犯错。
15:05
And if you don't have skepticism and humility,
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如果你不懂得怀疑和谦卑。
15:08
then it's a really short journey to go from reformer
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那你从改革者变为
15:11
to autocrat, and I think you only have to read "Animal Farm"
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独裁者就是一眨眼的事。
15:15
to get that message about how power corrupts people.
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你只需要看看《动物庄园 》就会知道权利是怎样宠坏人们的。
15:21
So what is the solution? It is, I believe, to embody
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那么怎样解决呢?
15:27
within the rule of law rights to information.
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我相信那就是有接近信息的法律权力。
15:30
At the moment our rights are incredibly weak.
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现在我们的权力还十分微弱。
15:33
In a lot of countries, we have Official Secrets Acts,
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在很多国家,我们还有官方保密法。
15:36
including in Britain here. We have an Official Secrets Act
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包括在英国,没有利益测试的
15:38
with no public interest test. So that means it's a crime,
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官方保密法还存在。这说明,
15:41
people are punished, quite severely in a lot of cases,
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如果人们公布或放出官方信息,
15:45
for publishing or giving away official information.
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会被严厉处罚,这被看成是犯罪。
15:50
Now wouldn't it be amazing, and really, this is what I want
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那当是不是我们想看到的。
15:53
all of you to think about, if we had an Official Disclosure Act
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大家想想,如果我们有官方披露信息的法案
15:57
where officials were punished if they were found
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如果官员们被发现禁止或藏匿
16:00
to have suppressed or hidden information
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与公众利益有关的信息
16:03
that was in the public interest?
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他们就会被惩罚
16:05
So that -- yes. Yes! My power pose. (Applause) (Laughs)
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那多好! 对对,这是我的”权力姿势” (鼓掌)
16:12
I would like us to work towards that.
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我想要大家都向这个方向做出努力。
16:15
So it's not all bad news. I mean, there definitely is
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现在并不都是坏消息。
16:19
progress on the line, but I think what we find is that
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报道中必然有一些进步。
16:22
the closer that we get right into the heart of power,
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当我们更进一步接近权利中心时,
16:25
the more opaque, closed it becomes.
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一些变得更加不透明
16:29
So it was only just the other week that I heard London's
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我上周才发现伦敦的
16:32
Metropolitan Police Commissioner talking about why
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都会警察委员说
16:36
the police need access to all of our communications,
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为什么警察需要得到所有关于
16:40
spying on us without any judicial oversight,
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我们通信的信息,在没有司法官制下
16:43
and he said it was a matter of life and death.
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侦查我们,他说这关系到生死
16:45
He actually said that, it was a matter of life and death.
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他确实这样说的,“这关系到了生死”
16:48
There was no evidence. He presented no evidence of that.
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但这没有依据的。他并没有告诉我证据
16:52
It was just, "Because I say so.
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他只是说“因为我这样说了
16:56
You have to trust me. Take it on faith."
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你必须相信我,用你的信念来接受它。”
16:59
Well, I'm sorry, people, but we are back
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抱歉,但是当我们回到
17:01
to the pre-Enlightenment Church,
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启蒙运动前的教堂
17:05
and we need to fight against that.
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我们都需要制止这样的动作
17:08
So he was talking about the law in Britain which is
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而他在谈论一个令人愤怒的
17:12
the Communications Data Bill, an absolutely outrageous piece of legislation.
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英国通信数据法案啊!
17:16
In America, you have the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act.
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在美国,有网络情报分享和保护法案。
17:19
You've got drones now being considered for domestic surveillance.
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有监控国家的机器
17:23
You have the National Security Agency building
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有国家安全机构所
17:26
the world's giantest spy center. It's just this colossal --
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全球最大的间谍中心。就是有这么巨大。
17:29
it's five times bigger than the U.S. Capitol,
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它是美国国会大厦的六倍
17:32
in which they're going to intercept and analyze
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在里面,他们拦截并检查他人的
17:34
communications, traffic and personal data
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通信、流量,和个人数据
17:37
to try and figure out who's the troublemaker in society.
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然后找出哪些人是不“和谐”的。
17:40
Well, to go back to our original story, the parents
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那么,现在回到我们最初说的故事。
17:45
have panicked. They've locked all the doors.
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“父母”们开始慌张了,他们锁上门。
17:49
They've kitted out the house with CCTV cameras.
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他们在房子外面装上闭路相机
17:52
They're watching all of us. They've dug a basement,
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他们监视着我们。他们挖了个地下室,
17:54
and they've built a spy center to try and run algorithms
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他们修建了间谍中心,研究盘算着
17:57
and figure out which ones of us are troublesome,
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想找出我们之中不“乖”的人,
18:00
and if any of us complain about that, we're arrested for terrorism.
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如果我们中任何人抱怨了,我们会被逮捕,扣上“恐怖分子”的罪名。
18:04
Well, is that a fairy tale or a living nightmare?
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那是童话,还是噩梦?
18:08
Some fairy tales have happy endings. Some don't.
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一些童话有美好结局。一些则没有。
18:11
I think we've all read the Grimms' fairy tales, which are,
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大家都读过格林童话吧,
18:14
indeed, very grim.
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那确实很恐怖。
18:16
But the world isn't a fairy tale, and it could be more brutal
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但我们的世界不是童话。
18:22
than we want to acknowledge.
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世界可能比我们会承认的更加残酷。
18:24
Equally, it could be better than we've been led to believe,
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同样,世界也可能比我们想象的更好。
18:27
but either way, we have to start seeing it exactly as it is,
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不过无论是那种,我们需要客观的看到世界的真相,
18:30
with all of its problems, because it's only by seeing it
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世界的问题。因为只有通过
18:34
with all of its problems that we'll be able to fix them
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清楚地看见世界的真相和问题,我们才能解决这些问题
18:37
and live in a world in which we can all be
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才能在世界上活的更美好。
18:41
happily ever after. (Laughs) Thank you very much.
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(笑声) 谢谢大家!
18:45
(Applause)
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(鼓掌)
18:48
Thank you. (Applause)
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谢谢。(鼓掌)
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