Heather Brooke: My battle to expose government corruption

221,047 views ・ 2012-10-18

TED


请双击下面的英文字幕来播放视频。

00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
0
0
7000
翻译人员: Naninaniyoo Chen 校对人员: Xiang Li
00:15
Once upon a time, the world was a big, dysfunctional family.
1
15992
5169
很久以前,世界是个很大却不和谐的大家庭
00:21
It was run by the great and powerful parents,
2
21161
3431
这个家庭被“伟大的”“强大的”家长们主宰着
00:24
and the people were helpless
3
24592
2335
人们却像是淘气的孩子一样
00:26
and hopeless naughty children.
4
26927
2496
无望、无助
00:29
If any of the more rowdier children questioned
5
29423
2503
如果吵闹的孩子们怀疑了
00:31
the authority of the parents, they were scolded.
6
31926
3577
家长的权威,他们就会被责骂
00:35
If they went exploring into the parents' rooms,
7
35503
3033
如果孩子们进去探索家长的房间
00:38
or even into the secret filing cabinets, they were punished,
8
38536
3783
或是悄悄溜进家长的秘密档案柜,他们就会被狠狠地惩罚
00:42
and told that for their own good
9
42319
2753
家长会告诉他们,为了孩子自己,
00:45
they must never go in there again.
10
45072
3631
以后再也不要去家长秘密的房间了。
00:48
Then one day, a man came to town
11
48703
2496
有一天, 一个人来到了这个小镇
00:51
with boxes and boxes of secret documents
12
51199
2798
带着一箱一箱的从家长那里偷来的
00:53
stolen from the parents' rooms.
13
53997
1864
秘密文件
00:55
"Look what they've been hiding from you," he said.
14
55861
4026
他说“看看家长们在背后藏了什么”
00:59
The children looked and were amazed.
15
59887
3042
孩子们吃惊地看到
01:02
There were maps and minutes from meetings
16
62929
2844
这些是从会议里得出的绘图和备忘录
01:05
where the parents were slagging each other off.
17
65773
3265
而在会议里家长们互相指责对方
01:09
They behaved just like the children.
18
69038
2548
他们的行为简直就像小孩一样!
01:11
And they made mistakes, too, just like the children.
19
71586
3958
不但这样,他们也会像孩子一样犯错
01:15
The only difference was, their mistakes
20
75544
2711
唯一的不同就是
01:18
were in the secret filing cabinets.
21
78255
2825
他们的错误被藏在秘密的档案阁里
01:21
Well, there was a girl in the town, and she didn't think
22
81080
2805
镇里有个小女孩,她并不觉得
01:23
they should be in the secret filing cabinets,
23
83885
2867
家长的秘密应该被藏在秘密的档案阁里
01:26
or if they were, there ought to be a law
24
86752
1900
即使藏在那里,也必须有法规
01:28
to allow the children access.
25
88652
2117
允许孩子们知道内容
01:30
And so she set about to make it so.
26
90769
3807
于是,她开始着手实现这个想法
01:34
Well, I'm the girl in that story, and the secret documents
27
94576
3846
对,我就是故事里的小女孩
01:38
that I was interested in were located in this building,
28
98422
3154
而我感兴趣的秘密就藏在这栋楼里
01:41
the British Parliament, and the data that I wanted
29
101576
4362
那就是英国议会
01:45
to get my hands on were the expense receipts
30
105938
2661
而我想拿到手的资料就是
01:48
of members of Parliament.
31
108599
3889
下院议员的花费收据
01:52
I thought this was a basic question to ask in a democracy. (Applause)
32
112488
6239
我认为这是在民主社会最基本需要知道的东西。(掌声)
01:58
It wasn't like I was asking for the code to a nuclear bunker,
33
118727
2907
我又不是在要求知道核武器堆的密码
02:01
or anything like that, but the amount of resistance I got
34
121634
2853
或者类似的。但是,我为了知道这冠上“信息自由”的信息,
02:04
from this Freedom of Information request,
35
124487
2523
可是费了不少的功夫才冲破重重阻碍
02:07
you would have thought I'd asked something like this.
36
127010
3244
其间的困难是你不能预想到的
02:10
So I fought for about five years doing this,
37
130254
4225
我大概用了五年的时间才有今天的结果
02:14
and it was one of many hundreds of requests that I made,
38
134479
3472
而这只是我所提出需要了解的几百种信息的中的一点
02:17
not -- I didn't -- Hey, look, I didn't set out, honestly,
39
137951
2953
不过,我要说,我没有想要
02:20
to revolutionize the British Parliament.
40
140904
1649
彻底改革英国议会
02:22
That was not my intention. I was just making these requests
41
142553
3431
那根本不是我的意图,我只是在
02:25
as part of research for my first book.
42
145984
3151
为了我出第一本书做出的一点努力
02:29
But it ended up in this very long, protracted legal battle
43
149135
2865
但是我确意想不到的打了这么久的官司
02:32
and there I was after five years fighting against Parliament
44
152000
4375
经过长达五年
02:36
in front of three of Britain's most eminent High Court judges
45
156375
3040
与英国高院三位最杰出法官的较量,
02:39
waiting for their ruling about whether or not Parliament had to release this data.
46
159415
4152
等待他们决定议会是否应该公开这些信息
02:43
And I've got to tell you, I wasn't that hopeful,
47
163567
2108
今天我必须告诉你,原本并不是那么有希望
02:45
because I'd seen the establishment. I thought,
48
165675
2725
因为我见证了议会的建立,我觉得
02:48
it always sticks together. I am out of luck.
49
168400
3356
议会做事一般是不透露的。我可能没有运气找到什么吧
02:51
Well, guess what? I won. Hooray. (Applause)
50
171756
4586
但是,你们猜猜?我胜利了。啊哈!
02:56
Well, that's not exactly the story, because the problem was
51
176342
3423
呵呵,但我讲述的并不是很完整的故事。因为问题在于,
02:59
that Parliament delayed and delayed releasing that data,
52
179765
3354
议会不断地拖延公布这些信息
03:03
and then they tried to retrospectively change the law
53
183119
3160
不仅这样,他们还尝试回溯性地改变这方面的法规
03:06
so that it would no longer apply to them.
54
186279
2673
让新法规不再适用于揭露这种信息
03:08
The transparency law they'd passed earlier that applied to everybody else,
55
188952
2922
之前他们颁布的新“透明”法规对于其他人都适用
03:11
they tried to keep it so it didn't apply to them.
56
191874
2796
他们试着让法规不再适用我的要求
03:14
What they hadn't counted on was digitization,
57
194670
3495
但是他们忘记了在数据数字化上下规定
03:18
because that meant that all those paper receipts
58
198165
2386
因为,这些纸质收据
03:20
had been scanned in electronically, and it was very easy
59
200551
3240
已经被电子扫描过了
03:23
for somebody to just copy that entire database,
60
203791
3199
所以要复制整个数据库是非常容易的
03:26
put it on a disk, and then just saunter outside of Parliament,
61
206990
3934
只需要将数据装入磁盘,然后就可以悠闲地在议会楼外散步了
03:30
which they did, and then they shopped that disk
62
210924
2485
他们就这样做了,还把装有数据的磁盘卖给了
03:33
to the highest bidder, which was the Daily Telegraph,
63
213409
2958
出价最高的《每日电讯报》
03:36
and then, you all remember, there was weeks and weeks
64
216367
3207
然后,你们记得的,
03:39
of revelations, everything from porn movies
65
219574
3025
就有了周周不断地揭露,
03:42
and bath plugs and new kitchens
66
222599
3156
从色情电影,浴盆塞,新厨房
03:45
and mortgages that had never been paid off.
67
225755
3461
到没有还清的抵押贷款
03:49
The end result was six ministers resigned,
68
229216
4687
最后的结果呢? 十六个部长辞职了
03:53
the first speaker of the house in 300 years was forced to resign,
69
233903
4051
三百年内第一次有议会发言人被迫辞职
03:57
a new government was elected on a mandate of transparency,
70
237954
4019
基于对透明化的命令,一个新的政府被选举出来
04:01
120 MPs stepped down at that election,
71
241973
3783
120个下院议员在那场选举中也无奈下台
04:05
and so far, four MPs and two lords
72
245756
4491
至今,四个下院议员和两个勋爵
04:10
have done jail time for fraud.
73
250247
3030
因为作假进了监狱
04:13
So, thank you. (Applause)
74
253277
6378
谢谢大家(鼓掌)
04:19
Well, I tell you that story because it wasn't unique to Britain.
75
259655
4275
我告诉大家这个故事的目的是因为这个现象不只存在于英国
04:23
It was an example of a culture clash that's happening
76
263930
3341
这只是在全球文化冲击的一个例子而已
04:27
all over the world between bewigged and bestockinged
77
267271
3320
在世界各地,仍有无数的戴着假面具,藏着无数“秘密”
04:30
officials who think that they can rule over us
78
270591
4104
的官员,而他们总认为
04:34
without very much prying from the public,
79
274695
1908
自己能在公众睁一只眼闭一只眼状况下统治人民
04:36
and then suddenly confronted with a public
80
276603
2453
但是突然,他们得面对
04:39
who is no longer content with that arrangement,
81
279056
3438
对这种现状不再满意的民众
04:42
and not only not content with it, now, more often,
82
282494
3238
民众不仅对官员不满意,
04:45
armed with official data itself.
83
285732
4374
更多时候,还对官方的数据产生怀疑
04:50
So we are moving to this democratization of information,
84
290106
5138
我们已经进入了信息的民主化
04:55
and I've been in this field for quite a while.
85
295244
2647
我已经研究这方面很久了
04:57
Slightly embarrassing admission: Even when I was a kid,
86
297891
2641
实话说挺不好意思的,我小时候,
05:00
I used to have these little spy books, and I would, like,
87
300532
1935
曾经有小小的“间谍”本子
05:02
see what everybody was doing in my neighborhood and log it down.
88
302467
2626
我会悄悄观察邻居们在做什么,然后把它记录下来
05:05
I think that was a pretty good indication
89
305093
2206
或许,那时我的行为
05:07
about my future career as an investigative journalist,
90
307299
3081
就为我未来职业埋下了伏笔---调查记者
05:10
and what I've seen from being in this access to information field for so long
91
310380
4520
接触这些信息这么久,我发现
05:14
is that it used to be quite a niche interest,
92
314900
2776
这曾只是个小众的兴趣
05:17
and it's gone mainstream. Everybody, increasingly, around the world,
93
317676
3151
而现在已经成为主流了。
05:20
wants to know about what people in power are doing.
94
320827
3168
越来越多的人想知道那些掌权的人们在干什么
05:23
They want a say in decisions that are made in their name
95
323995
3408
他们想要在以他们的名义,用他们的金钱所作的决定中
05:27
and with their money. It's this democratization of information
96
327403
3023
有发言权。我觉得正是信息民主化
05:30
that I think is an information enlightenment,
97
330426
2706
促成这这种信息启蒙
05:33
and it has many of the same principles of the first Enlightenment.
98
333132
3463
而且它和最初的启蒙运动在原则上有很多相似之处
05:36
It's about searching for the truth,
99
336595
2995
都在寻找真理
05:39
not because somebody says it's true, "because I say so."
100
339590
4197
不因为有人说这是真理,“因为我这样说”
05:43
No, it's about trying to find the truth based on
101
343787
2474
不,这是在寻找看得见的,
05:46
what you can see and what can be tested.
102
346261
2629
能被证实的真理
05:48
That, in the first Enlightenment, led to questions about
103
348890
2668
在启蒙运动里,这样的探寻引出了一些疑问
05:51
the right of kings, the divine right of kings to rule over people,
104
351558
3509
比如国王的权利,国王统治子民的神圣权利
05:55
or that women should be subordinate to men,
105
355067
2177
比如女人应该服从男人
05:57
or that the Church was the official word of God.
106
357244
2703
再比如教堂就是代表上帝的地方
05:59
Obviously the Church weren't very happy about this,
107
359947
2436
显然教会不乐意了
06:02
and they tried to suppress it,
108
362383
2101
他们想要抑制这样的探索
06:04
but what they hadn't counted on was technology,
109
364484
3071
但他们没预料到科技的能力
06:07
and then they had the printing press, which suddenly
110
367555
2425
有了出版社让这些
06:09
enabled these ideas to spread cheaply, far and fast,
111
369980
3392
想法廉价并迅速地传播到各地
06:13
and people would come together in coffee houses,
112
373372
2840
人们聚集到咖啡屋
06:16
discuss the ideas, plot revolution.
113
376212
2816
讨论这些想法,密谋一场信息革命
06:19
In our day, we have digitization. That strips all the physical mass out of information,
114
379028
4591
现在我们有了数据电子化。这把信息从成堆成堆的状况下解救出来
06:23
so now it's almost zero cost to copy and share information.
115
383619
3405
所以现在拷贝分享信息已近乎零花费
06:27
Our printing press is the Internet. Our coffee houses are social networks.
116
387024
4237
我们的“出版社”就是网络。我们的“咖啡屋”就是社交网络。
06:31
We're moving to what I would think of as a fully connected system,
117
391261
5102
我认为,我们已经进入完全连接的世界
06:36
and we have global decisions to make in this system,
118
396363
2873
我们可以在这个世界做出全球化的决定
06:39
decisions about climate, about finance systems,
119
399236
3686
做出关于气候,金融系统,以及资源分配的决定
06:42
about resources. And think about it --
120
402922
3341
想想吧
06:46
if we want to make an important decision about buying a house,
121
406263
2462
如果我们做买房子这样重要的决定
06:48
we don't just go off. I mean, I don't know about you,
122
408725
2514
我们不是立即就做决定。虽然我不知道你们会不会,
06:51
but I want to see a lot of houses before I put that much money into it.
123
411239
3344
但在投入大量资金之前我还想多看些房子
06:54
And if we're thinking about a finance system,
124
414583
2355
如果我们在考虑金融方面的问题
06:56
we need a lot of information to take in. It's just not possible
125
416938
3644
我们也需要很多信息。
07:00
for one person to take in the amount, the volume
126
420582
3961
如果只让一个人了解很多信息,
07:04
of information, and analyze it to make good decisions.
127
424543
3766
再分析信息作出决定,是不现实的
07:08
So that's why we're seeing increasingly this demand
128
428309
3026
因此,对获取信息的要求
07:11
for access to information.
129
431335
2385
才越来越多
07:13
That's why we're starting to see more disclosure laws
130
433720
2309
所以我们才有了那么多的
07:16
come out, so for example, on the environment,
131
436029
1976
公开法出现
07:18
there's the Aarhus Convention,
132
438005
1716
比如,在环境方面,有《阿尔胡斯公约》
07:19
which is a European directive that gives people
133
439721
2028
这个欧洲的指令给力人们巨大的信息权
07:21
a very strong right to know, so if your water company
134
441749
2748
如果你的自来水公司
07:24
is dumping water into your river, sewage water
135
444497
3370
倒污水到河里
07:27
into your river, you have a right to know about it.
136
447867
3048
你有权利知道
07:30
In the finance industry, you now have more of a right
137
450915
3879
在金融业,你有更多权利知道
07:34
to know about what's going on, so we have
138
454794
2553
业界进展,
07:37
different anti-bribery laws, money regulations,
139
457347
2953
有反贿赂法规,金钱规章,
07:40
increased corporate disclosure, so you can now track assets across borders.
140
460300
4073
逐渐增加的公司透明法规,所以现在你可以跨国查看财产了
07:44
And it's getting harder to hide assets, tax avoidance,
141
464373
5244
而私藏财产,逃税,区别薪酬是越来越难了。
07:49
pay inequality. So that's great. We're starting to find out
142
469617
3135
这当然很好。
07:52
more and more about these systems.
143
472752
2719
我们开始发现这个系统里面的更多信息
07:55
And they're all moving to this central system,
144
475471
2792
他们都逐渐走向
07:58
this fully connected system,
145
478263
2367
完全连接的系统
08:00
all of them except one. Can you guess which one?
146
480630
3207
不过,有一点还没有。你们猜猜是什么?
08:03
It's the system which underpins all these other systems.
147
483837
2671
那就是,这个支持其他系统的系统
08:06
It's the system by which we organize and exercise power,
148
486508
4158
这个我们管理运用权力的系统
08:10
and there I'm talking about politics, because in politics,
149
490666
2930
我说的就是政治,因为在政治中
08:13
we're back to this system, this top-down hierarchy.
150
493596
4127
我们追踪回到了这个至上而下的等级制度
08:17
And how is it possible that the volume of information
151
497723
3081
但是要从这个最高等级的系统中完全透明化信息,
08:20
can be processed that needs to in this system?
152
500804
2811
可能么?
08:23
Well, it just can't. That's it.
153
503615
2616
不,那是行不通的。
08:26
And I think this is largely what's behind the crisis
154
506231
2707
我认为这很大一部分就是藏在不同政府的
08:28
of legitimacy in our different governments right now.
155
508938
4323
息合法化危机背后的东西
08:33
So I've told you a bit about what I did
156
513261
2183
我已经告诉了你们一些
08:35
to try and drag Parliament, kicking and screaming,
157
515444
2685
我针对议会的做的执意争得信息权利的行动。
08:38
into the 21st century, and I'm just going to give you
158
518129
2515
那么接下来我会
08:40
a couple of examples of what a few other people I know
159
520644
2664
再讲述一下我认识的一些人
08:43
are doing.
160
523308
1220
所做的事。
08:44
So this is a guy called Seb Bacon. He's a computer
161
524528
3219
Seb Bacon这个电脑
08:47
programmer, and he built a site called Alaveteli,
162
527747
3958
工程师做了一个叫
08:51
and what it is, it's a Freedom of Information platform.
163
531705
4770
Alaveteli, 它是一个自由的信息平台
08:56
It's open-source, with documentation, and it allows you
164
536475
2975
它有开放式的文件记录
08:59
to make a Freedom of Information request,
165
539450
3103
并且你可以对公共群体提出信息自由的要求
09:02
to ask your public body a question, so
166
542553
2969
问你想问的问题
09:05
it takes all the hassle out of it, and I can tell you
167
545522
3120
这个网站就收集大家的“牢骚”
09:08
that there is a lot of hassle making these requests,
168
548642
2088
通过它人们知道有很多都在提出自己的牢骚
09:10
so it takes all of that hassle out, and you just type in your question,
169
550730
3544
你只需要输入你的问题
09:14
for example, how many police officers have a criminal record?
170
554274
4471
比如说,“多少警察有犯罪记录?”
09:18
It zooms it off to the appropriate person, it tells you
171
558745
3841
然后就会得到对目标的详细关注
09:22
when the time limit is coming to an end, it keeps track of all
172
562586
3488
你还可以知道时限长度,
09:26
the correspondence, it posts it up there,
173
566074
1652
追踪通信。一旦你把问题提出来,
09:27
and it becomes an archive of public knowledge.
174
567726
3655
它就进入了公众视野
09:31
So that's open-source and it can be used in any country
175
571381
3573
只要你的国家有关于信息自由的法律,
09:34
where there is some kind of Freedom of Information law.
176
574954
2911
你就可以使用这个公开资源的网站
09:37
So there's a list there of the different countries that have it,
177
577865
3210
现在在许多国家,这个网站已经走上正轨
09:41
and then there's a few more coming on board.
178
581075
1795
接下来还会在更多国家开始。
09:42
So if any of you out there like the sound of that
179
582870
2560
如果在座的任何人对此有兴趣,
09:45
and have a law like that in your country,
180
585430
2733
并且你的国家有相关法律
09:48
I know that Seb would love to hear from you
181
588163
2039
Seb网站期待与您
09:50
about collaborating and getting that into your country.
182
590202
4072
和您的国家合作。
09:54
This is Birgitta Jónsdóttir. She's an Icelandic MP.
183
594274
4295
照片上的是Birgitta Jonsdottir,她是冰岛下院议员
09:58
And quite an unusual MP. In Iceland, she was
184
598569
3834
一个不寻常的议员。
10:02
one of the protesters who was outside of Parliament
185
602403
3317
当冰岛的国家经济临近崩溃时,有许多人在议会外面抗议
10:05
when the country's economy collapsed,
186
605720
3746
她便是其中一员
10:09
and then she was elected on a reform mandate,
187
609466
3894
在改革的要求下,她成功当选
10:13
and she's now spearheading this project.
188
613360
2367
她现在正准备操作这个项目
10:15
It's the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative,
189
615727
2887
这就是冰岛现代媒体的行动,
10:18
and they've just got funding to make it an international
190
618614
2265
他们刚刚得到了将之做成
10:20
modern media project, and this is taking all of the best laws
191
620879
3439
一项国际化现代媒体项目的资金,
10:24
around the world about freedom of expression,
192
624318
2936
项目将汇聚全球关于言论自由的法律,
10:27
protection of whistleblowers, protection from libel,
193
627254
2795
关于保护告发者的法律,关于诽谤罪方面保护的法律
10:30
source protection, and trying to make Iceland a publishing haven.
194
630049
4474
关于资源保护的法律。这样,冰岛将成为出版业的天堂
10:34
It's a place where your data can be free, so when we think
195
634523
2421
在这里数据会是自由的
10:36
about, increasingly, how governments want to access user data,
196
636944
3415
当我们越来越多地思考政府怎样接触使用数据时,
10:40
what they're trying to do in Iceland is make this safe haven
197
640359
2772
他们就在冰岛建立了这个安全的天堂
10:43
where it can happen.
198
643131
2737
让信息自由。
10:45
In my own field of investigative journalism, we're also
199
645868
3138
在我自己的领域里,也就是调查性报道,
10:49
having to start thinking globally, so this is a site called
200
649006
2830
我们也在逐渐地思考更全球化的东西
10:51
Investigative Dashboard. And if you're trying to track
201
651836
3123
这里有个网站叫做“调查仪表盘”。如果你想要
10:54
a dictator's assets, for example, Hosni Mubarak,
202
654959
2983
追踪一个独裁者的资产。比如说,侯赛尼•穆巴拉克(埃及总统)
10:57
you know, he's just funneling out cash from his country
203
657942
3445
当他觉得自己有危险了,
11:01
when he knows he's in trouble, and what you want to do
204
661387
2539
他就从自己的国家输送现金,
11:03
to investigate that is, you need to have access to
205
663926
2396
而你就想知道这些现金的去向。
11:06
all of the world's, as many as you can,
206
666322
2299
你会想要知道越来越多的世界上的“秘密”
11:08
companies' house registrations databases.
207
668621
2783
像公司房屋登记的数据。
11:11
So this is a website that tries to agglomerate all of those
208
671404
4438
这个网站试着把所有数据网罗
11:15
databases into one place so you can start searching for,
209
675842
3255
到一个地方,只要你搜索,就能找到。
11:19
you know, his relatives, his friends, the head of his security services.
210
679097
3668
找到他的家属,他的朋友,他的安全服务主管。
11:22
You can try and find out how he's moving out assets
211
682765
2751
你可以清楚看到他正在
11:25
from that country.
212
685516
2726
从那个国家转移资金。
11:28
But again, when it comes to the decisions which are
213
688242
3633
但是,当我们谈论到最影响我们的决定,
11:31
impacting us the most, perhaps, the most important
214
691875
3000
可能关于类似战争这种
11:34
decisions that are being made about war and so forth,
215
694875
3289
最重要的决定时,
11:38
again we can't just make a Freedom of Information request.
216
698164
2929
我们又不能只是提出信息自由的要求,
11:41
It's really difficult. So we're still having to rely on
217
701093
3108
这是很困难的。所以我们仍然需要
11:44
illegitimate ways of getting information, through leaks.
218
704201
4082
依靠非法的方式来获得信息,从漏洞中获得。
11:48
So when the Guardian did this investigation about
219
708283
3042
当英国卫报做这个关于阿富汗战争的报道时
11:51
the Afghan War, you know, they can't walk into
220
711325
3150
他们不能就直接走进
11:54
the Department of Defense and ask for all the information.
221
714475
3464
国防部,索要全部信息。
11:57
You know, they're just not going to get it.
222
717939
1942
这样做的话,是得不到的。
11:59
So this came from leaks of tens of thousands of dispatches
223
719881
3540
这些信息都来自美国大兵写的
12:03
that were written by American soldiers
224
723421
2406
关于阿富汗战争成千上万的急件,
12:05
about the Afghan War, and leaked,
225
725827
2559
从这些漏洞里知道真相。
12:08
and then they're able to do this investigation.
226
728386
3651
这样卫报才成功做了调查。
12:12
Another rather large investigation is around world diplomacy.
227
732037
5568
另外一个大型的调查是关于全球外交的。
12:17
Again, this is all based around leaks,
228
737605
2500
这个调查也来源于
12:20
251,000 U.S. diplomatic cables, and I was involved
229
740105
5251
25100个美国的外交电缆里透露的信息。
12:25
in this investigation because I got this leak
230
745356
3941
当时我也参与了调查,因为我
12:29
through a leak from a disgruntled WikiLeaker
231
749297
3369
从一个不满的维基解密人里得到了密报,
12:32
and ended up going to work at the Guardian.
232
752666
2769
最后到卫报里工作了。
12:35
So I can tell you firsthand what it was like to have access
233
755435
2424
我能告诉你关于这个漏洞的第一手消息。
12:37
to this leak. It was amazing. I mean, it was amazing.
234
757859
1967
那真的是惊人的!真是惊人啊!
12:39
It reminded me of that scene in "The Wizard of Oz."
235
759826
3650
这让我想起了《绿野仙踪》里的场景,
12:43
Do you know the one I mean? Where the little dog Toto
236
763476
2488
当小狗托托
12:45
runs across to where the wizard [is], and he pulls back,
237
765964
2851
跑过巫师旁边,然后掉头回来,
12:48
the dog's pulling back the curtain, and --
238
768815
1462
狗狗拉开了幕布
12:50
"Don't look behind the screen. Don't look at the man behind the screen."
239
770277
3983
“不要看屏幕后面!不要看屏幕后面的人!”
12:54
It was just like that, because what you started to see
240
774260
2136
因为当你开始看到的是
12:56
is that all of these grand statesmen, these very pompous
241
776396
2951
那些大政治家,那些
12:59
politicians, they were just like us.
242
779347
3098
浮夸的政治家。他们就和我们一样。
13:02
They all bitched about each other. I mean, quite gossipy,
243
782445
2560
他们会互相说坏话。对,挺多嘴的。
13:05
those cables. Okay, but I thought it was a very important
244
785005
2671
但我觉得这些都需要我们知道。
13:07
point for all of us to grasp, these are human beings
245
787676
2601
他们和我们普通人没什么区别。
13:10
just like us. They don't have special powers.
246
790277
1951
他们并不是神一样的存在,
13:12
They're not magic. They are not our parents.
247
792228
3823
没有什么魔法。他们不是我们父母,
13:16
Beyond that, what I found most fascinating
248
796051
4849
除了这些, 我发现最惊奇的是
13:20
was the level of endemic corruption that I saw
249
800900
2624
不同国家的地区性腐败,
13:23
across all different countries, and particularly centered
250
803524
3155
特别是围绕权力中心
13:26
around the heart of power, around public officials
251
806679
2828
比如官员们
13:29
who were embezzling the public's money
252
809507
2616
为了自己的利益,挪用公款。
13:32
for their own personal enrichment, and allowed to do that
253
812123
3018
正是由于官方机密
13:35
because of official secrecy.
254
815141
3383
才造成了这种情况。
13:38
So I've mentioned WikiLeaks, because surely what could be
255
818524
3627
我刚提到了维基解密,
13:42
more open than publishing all the material?
256
822151
2831
因为,还有比它更加公开的么?
13:44
Because that is what Julian Assange did.
257
824982
3071
因为朱利安阿桑奇就这么做了。
13:48
He wasn't content with the way the newspapers published it
258
828053
2568
他并不满意于
13:50
to be safe and legal. He threw it all out there.
259
830621
3797
新闻安全、合法地发布信息的方式。他把所有的东西都倒出来了。
13:54
That did end up with vulnerable people in Afghanistan
260
834418
3715
那的确是让一些易受攻击的阿富汗人被揭发出来
13:58
being exposed. It also meant that the Belarussian dictator
261
838133
3416
那也表示白俄罗斯独裁者
14:01
was given a handy list of all the pro-democracy campaigners
262
841549
3770
也面对了一批与美国政府进行过交谈的支持民主
14:05
in that country who had spoken to the U.S. government.
263
845319
3486
进行过交谈的民主人士。
14:08
Is that radical openness? I say it's not, because for me,
264
848805
4472
这是激进派的开放么?我觉得不是,
14:13
what it means, it doesn't mean abdicating power,
265
853277
3502
这不是放弃权利
14:16
responsibility, accountability, it's actually being a partner
266
856779
3754
责任,这只是在和权利同一地位的另一种力量。
14:20
with power. It's about sharing responsibility,
267
860533
3016
这是分享责任,分享义务。
14:23
sharing accountability. Also, the fact that
268
863549
2912
当他因为我从维基解密得到了很多泄密
14:26
he threatened to sue me because I got a leak of his leaks,
269
866461
2137
而威胁要告我,我觉得
14:28
I thought that showed a remarkable sort of inconsistency
270
868598
2685
那中间产生了巨大的意识主义上
14:31
in ideology, to be honest, as well. (Laughs)
271
871283
5841
的矛盾。(笑声)
14:37
The other thing is that power is incredibly seductive,
272
877124
3334
另外,权利真的很诱惑人。
14:40
and you must have two real qualities, I think,
273
880458
2668
在你坐上谈判桌,当你
14:43
when you come to the table, when you're dealing
274
883126
2413
拥有权利时,
14:45
with power, talking about power,
275
885539
1734
你需要有
14:47
because of its seductive capacity.
276
887273
2373
两种特质,
14:49
You've got to have skepticism and humility.
277
889646
3019
一,怀疑的态度,二,谦卑的心态。
14:52
Skepticism, because you must always be challenging.
278
892665
2593
怀疑是因为你一直会被挑战。
14:55
I want to see why do you -- you just say so? That's not good enough.
279
895258
3032
如果你只是说了要这样,我觉得还不够。
14:58
I want to see the evidence behind why that's so.
280
898290
2715
我想知道为什么这样,这样的依据是什么?
15:01
And humility because we are all human. We all make mistakes.
281
901005
4493
谦卑是因为我们都是人都会犯错。
15:05
And if you don't have skepticism and humility,
282
905498
2792
如果你不懂得怀疑和谦卑。
15:08
then it's a really short journey to go from reformer
283
908290
3095
那你从改革者变为
15:11
to autocrat, and I think you only have to read "Animal Farm"
284
911385
4609
独裁者就是一眨眼的事。
15:15
to get that message about how power corrupts people.
285
915994
5943
你只需要看看《动物庄园 》就会知道权利是怎样宠坏人们的。
15:21
So what is the solution? It is, I believe, to embody
286
921937
5468
那么怎样解决呢?
15:27
within the rule of law rights to information.
287
927405
3467
我相信那就是有接近信息的法律权力。
15:30
At the moment our rights are incredibly weak.
288
930872
2635
现在我们的权力还十分微弱。
15:33
In a lot of countries, we have Official Secrets Acts,
289
933507
2982
在很多国家,我们还有官方保密法。
15:36
including in Britain here. We have an Official Secrets Act
290
936489
2163
包括在英国,没有利益测试的
15:38
with no public interest test. So that means it's a crime,
291
938652
3116
官方保密法还存在。这说明,
15:41
people are punished, quite severely in a lot of cases,
292
941768
4166
如果人们公布或放出官方信息,
15:45
for publishing or giving away official information.
293
945934
4203
会被严厉处罚,这被看成是犯罪。
15:50
Now wouldn't it be amazing, and really, this is what I want
294
950137
3478
那当是不是我们想看到的。
15:53
all of you to think about, if we had an Official Disclosure Act
295
953615
3562
大家想想,如果我们有官方披露信息的法案
15:57
where officials were punished if they were found
296
957177
3376
如果官员们被发现禁止或藏匿
16:00
to have suppressed or hidden information
297
960553
2960
与公众利益有关的信息
16:03
that was in the public interest?
298
963513
2185
他们就会被惩罚
16:05
So that -- yes. Yes! My power pose. (Applause) (Laughs)
299
965698
6900
那多好! 对对,这是我的”权力姿势” (鼓掌)
16:12
I would like us to work towards that.
300
972598
2545
我想要大家都向这个方向做出努力。
16:15
So it's not all bad news. I mean, there definitely is
301
975143
3920
现在并不都是坏消息。
16:19
progress on the line, but I think what we find is that
302
979063
2955
报道中必然有一些进步。
16:22
the closer that we get right into the heart of power,
303
982018
3176
当我们更进一步接近权利中心时,
16:25
the more opaque, closed it becomes.
304
985194
4424
一些变得更加不透明
16:29
So it was only just the other week that I heard London's
305
989618
3080
我上周才发现伦敦的
16:32
Metropolitan Police Commissioner talking about why
306
992698
3497
都会警察委员说
16:36
the police need access to all of our communications,
307
996195
4592
为什么警察需要得到所有关于
16:40
spying on us without any judicial oversight,
308
1000787
3063
我们通信的信息,在没有司法官制下
16:43
and he said it was a matter of life and death.
309
1003850
1666
侦查我们,他说这关系到生死
16:45
He actually said that, it was a matter of life and death.
310
1005516
3247
他确实这样说的,“这关系到了生死”
16:48
There was no evidence. He presented no evidence of that.
311
1008763
4222
但这没有依据的。他并没有告诉我证据
16:52
It was just, "Because I say so.
312
1012985
3122
他只是说“因为我这样说了
16:56
You have to trust me. Take it on faith."
313
1016107
3248
你必须相信我,用你的信念来接受它。”
16:59
Well, I'm sorry, people, but we are back
314
1019355
1999
抱歉,但是当我们回到
17:01
to the pre-Enlightenment Church,
315
1021354
3705
启蒙运动前的教堂
17:05
and we need to fight against that.
316
1025059
3776
我们都需要制止这样的动作
17:08
So he was talking about the law in Britain which is
317
1028835
3288
而他在谈论一个令人愤怒的
17:12
the Communications Data Bill, an absolutely outrageous piece of legislation.
318
1032123
4226
英国通信数据法案啊!
17:16
In America, you have the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act.
319
1036349
3606
在美国,有网络情报分享和保护法案。
17:19
You've got drones now being considered for domestic surveillance.
320
1039955
3640
有监控国家的机器
17:23
You have the National Security Agency building
321
1043595
2760
有国家安全机构所
17:26
the world's giantest spy center. It's just this colossal --
322
1046355
3528
全球最大的间谍中心。就是有这么巨大。
17:29
it's five times bigger than the U.S. Capitol,
323
1049883
2472
它是美国国会大厦的六倍
17:32
in which they're going to intercept and analyze
324
1052355
1802
在里面,他们拦截并检查他人的
17:34
communications, traffic and personal data
325
1054157
2949
通信、流量,和个人数据
17:37
to try and figure out who's the troublemaker in society.
326
1057106
3313
然后找出哪些人是不“和谐”的。
17:40
Well, to go back to our original story, the parents
327
1060419
4800
那么,现在回到我们最初说的故事。
17:45
have panicked. They've locked all the doors.
328
1065219
3850
“父母”们开始慌张了,他们锁上门。
17:49
They've kitted out the house with CCTV cameras.
329
1069069
3086
他们在房子外面装上闭路相机
17:52
They're watching all of us. They've dug a basement,
330
1072155
2752
他们监视着我们。他们挖了个地下室,
17:54
and they've built a spy center to try and run algorithms
331
1074907
2664
他们修建了间谍中心,研究盘算着
17:57
and figure out which ones of us are troublesome,
332
1077571
2672
想找出我们之中不“乖”的人,
18:00
and if any of us complain about that, we're arrested for terrorism.
333
1080243
4234
如果我们中任何人抱怨了,我们会被逮捕,扣上“恐怖分子”的罪名。
18:04
Well, is that a fairy tale or a living nightmare?
334
1084477
3574
那是童话,还是噩梦?
18:08
Some fairy tales have happy endings. Some don't.
335
1088051
3659
一些童话有美好结局。一些则没有。
18:11
I think we've all read the Grimms' fairy tales, which are,
336
1091710
2747
大家都读过格林童话吧,
18:14
indeed, very grim.
337
1094457
2498
那确实很恐怖。
18:16
But the world isn't a fairy tale, and it could be more brutal
338
1096955
5222
但我们的世界不是童话。
18:22
than we want to acknowledge.
339
1102177
2804
世界可能比我们会承认的更加残酷。
18:24
Equally, it could be better than we've been led to believe,
340
1104981
2289
同样,世界也可能比我们想象的更好。
18:27
but either way, we have to start seeing it exactly as it is,
341
1107270
3711
不过无论是那种,我们需要客观的看到世界的真相,
18:30
with all of its problems, because it's only by seeing it
342
1110981
3849
世界的问题。因为只有通过
18:34
with all of its problems that we'll be able to fix them
343
1114830
2493
清楚地看见世界的真相和问题,我们才能解决这些问题
18:37
and live in a world in which we can all be
344
1117323
4071
才能在世界上活的更美好。
18:41
happily ever after. (Laughs) Thank you very much.
345
1121394
3686
(笑声) 谢谢大家!
18:45
(Applause)
346
1125080
3235
(鼓掌)
18:48
Thank you. (Applause)
347
1128315
4055
谢谢。(鼓掌)
关于本网站

这个网站将向你介绍对学习英语有用的YouTube视频。你将看到来自世界各地的一流教师教授的英语课程。双击每个视频页面上显示的英文字幕,即可从那里播放视频。字幕会随着视频的播放而同步滚动。如果你有任何意见或要求,请使用此联系表与我们联系。

https://forms.gle/WvT1wiN1qDtmnspy7