Heather Brooke: My battle to expose government corruption

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

譯者: I-Hsiang Lin 審譯者: Audrey Her

Once upon a time, the world was a big, dysfunctional family.

很久以前，世界就像是一個大且運作不良的家庭。

It was run by the great and powerful parents,

由一對強而有力的父母經營，

and the people were helpless

而人們是無助

and hopeless naughty children.

且不懷抱希望的調皮小孩。

If any of the more rowdier children questioned

如果有比較吵鬧的小孩

the authority of the parents, they were scolded.

質疑父母的權威，他們會被責罵。

If they went exploring into the parents' rooms,

如果他們跑到父母的房間裡探險，

or even into the secret filing cabinets, they were punished,

或者甚至跑到隱密的檔案室內，他們會被處罰，

and told that for their own good

且被提醒為了他們好，

they must never go in there again.

他們絕對不能再走進去。

Then one day, a man came to town

有一天，一個男人到鎮上來，

with boxes and boxes of secret documents

帶著從父母的房間裡偷來的

stolen from the parents' rooms.

裝著秘密檔案的好幾個箱子。

"Look what they've been hiding from you," he said.

「看他們一直對你們隱瞞的是什麼」他說。

The children looked and were amazed.

小孩們看了感到很驚奇。

There were maps and minutes from meetings

這些是他們父母彼此怒罵過程的

where the parents were slagging each other off.

圖像和會議記錄。

They behaved just like the children.

他們的舉止就像小孩。

And they made mistakes, too, just like the children.

而且他們也會犯錯，就像小孩一樣。

The only difference was, their mistakes

唯一的差異是，他們的錯誤

were in the secret filing cabinets.

放在秘密資料庫內。

Well, there was a girl in the town, and she didn't think

鎮上有一個女孩，她不認為

they should be in the secret filing cabinets,

這些資料應該放在秘密資料庫內，

or if they were, there ought to be a law

就算放在那裡，應該要有條法律

to allow the children access.

允許小孩們能取得資料。

And so she set about to make it so.

所以她打算要這麼做。

Well, I'm the girl in that story, and the secret documents

我就是故事中的女孩，而我感興趣的秘密文件

that I was interested in were located in this building,

就位於這座建築物中，

the British Parliament, and the data that I wanted

也就是英國國會大廈，我要取得的資料

to get my hands on were the expense receipts

是國會議員的

of members of Parliament.

開支收據。

I thought this was a basic question to ask in a democracy. (Applause)

我想這是民主社會中要問的基本問題。(掌聲)

It wasn't like I was asking for the code to a nuclear bunker,

我不是在問核子避難所的密碼，

or anything like that, but the amount of resistance I got

或者那類的事情，但我出自於尋求資訊的自由

from this Freedom of Information request,

而遭遇到的種種阻力

you would have thought I'd asked something like this.

會讓人以為我在問那種機密的問題。

So I fought for about five years doing this,

於是我花了大概五年在爭取，

and it was one of many hundreds of requests that I made,

而這只是我所提的好幾百個請求中的一個。

not -- I didn't -- Hey, look, I didn't set out, honestly,

事實上，我的本意不是要

to revolutionize the British Parliament.

徹底改革英國國會。

That was not my intention. I was just making these requests

那不是我的原本企圖，我只是為我第一本書的研究

as part of research for my first book.

提了這些請求。

But it ended up in this very long, protracted legal battle

但卻演變成冗長，拖延的法律戰，

and there I was after five years fighting against Parliament

於是過了五年跟國會抗戰後

in front of three of Britain's most eminent High Court judges

我站在英國最有名望的三位高等法院法官前，

waiting for their ruling about whether or not Parliament had to release this data.

等待他們裁定國會是否必須釋出這些資料。

And I've got to tell you, I wasn't that hopeful,

我必須誠實以告，當時我沒抱什麼希望。

because I'd seen the establishment. I thought,

因為我已經見識過這些機關組織。我心想，

it always sticks together. I am out of luck.

他們會聯合起來。我沒那麼幸運。

Well, guess what? I won. Hooray. (Applause)

猜猜看？我贏了。萬歲。(掌聲)

Well, that's not exactly the story, because the problem was

但故事不是到此結束，因為問題是

that Parliament delayed and delayed releasing that data,

國會一再拖延釋出資料的時間，

and then they tried to retrospectively change the law

接著他們試著回顧性地改變法律

so that it would no longer apply to them.

以致於法律不適用於他們。

The transparency law they'd passed earlier that applied to everybody else,

他們較早前通過的透明法適用於其他所有人，

they tried to keep it so it didn't apply to them.

但他們試著保存這法律以致於他們能置身事外。

What they hadn't counted on was digitization,

他們沒想到的是數位化，

because that meant that all those paper receipts

因為這代表著所有紙張收據

had been scanned in electronically, and it was very easy

都經過電子掃描存檔，於是若有人要

for somebody to just copy that entire database,

複製整個資料檔，這是易如反掌的事，

put it on a disk, and then just saunter outside of Parliament,

插入一個磁碟，資料就流到國會外了，

which they did, and then they shopped that disk

有人確實這麼做了，接著他們將磁碟

to the highest bidder, which was the Daily Telegraph,

賣給出價最高的競標者，也就是《每日電訊報》，

and then, you all remember, there was weeks and weeks

於是，你也都記得，接下來持續好幾周的披露，

of revelations, everything from porn movies

什麼都有，從色情電影

and bath plugs and new kitchens

浴缸塞和新的廚房

and mortgages that had never been paid off.

還有從來沒有付清的貸款。

The end result was six ministers resigned,

結果是六個大臣辭職，

the first speaker of the house in 300 years was forced to resign,

300年以來，第一個下議院議長被強迫辭職，

a new government was elected on a mandate of transparency,

根據透明化的指令，一個新政府被推選成立了，

120 MPs stepped down at that election,

120個國會議員在此選舉中下台，

and so far, four MPs and two lords

截至目前為止，四個國會議員和兩個上議院議員

have done jail time for fraud.

因詐欺被而坐牢。

So, thank you. (Applause)

謝謝。(掌聲)

Well, I tell you that story because it wasn't unique to Britain.

我講這個故事是因為這並不只發生在英國。

It was an example of a culture clash that's happening

這是文化衝突的例子，

all over the world between bewigged and bestockinged

發生在全世界戴假髮和穿襪子的官員身上，

officials who think that they can rule over us

他們認為他們可以統治我們

without very much prying from the public,

而不用受到大眾的窺探，

and then suddenly confronted with a public

接著突然間受到不滿於此種安排的

who is no longer content with that arrangement,

社會大眾對質，

and not only not content with it, now, more often,

社會大眾不只是不滿足現狀，更常見地，

armed with official data itself.

還有官方資料當靠山。

So we are moving to this democratization of information,

於是我們進入資訊民主化的時代，

and I've been in this field for quite a while.

而我已經在這領域有一段時間。

Slightly embarrassing admission: Even when I was a kid,

有點難為情的自白：當我還是個孩子的時候，

I used to have these little spy books, and I would, like,

我有小本的間諜筆記本，我所做的是

see what everybody was doing in my neighborhood and log it down.

看在我家附近每個人在做什麼，記錄下來。

I think that was a pretty good indication

我想那是我未來選擇

about my future career as an investigative journalist,

作為一個調查型記者的好指標，

and what I've seen from being in this access to information field for so long

而我在這個要取得資訊的領域待了這麼久，所看到的是

is that it used to be quite a niche interest,

過去大家為的是利基利益，

and it's gone mainstream. Everybody, increasingly, around the world,

現在這已經成為主流。全世界裡，愈來愈多人

wants to know about what people in power are doing.

想要知道有權力的人在做什麼。

They want a say in decisions that are made in their name

對於以他們之名和花他們金錢下所做的決定， 他們有權表達意見。

and with their money. It's this democratization of information

我認為資訊民主化

that I think is an information enlightenment,

就像是資訊的啟蒙期，

and it has many of the same principles of the first Enlightenment.

它跟第一個啟蒙時代有很多相同的原則。

It's about searching for the truth,

都是要尋找真相，

not because somebody says it's true, "because I say so."

不是因為有人說那是真的，「因為我這麼說。」

No, it's about trying to find the truth based on

不是的，而是根據你所看到的，

what you can see and what can be tested.

還有可以被驗證的，來試圖找出真相。

That, in the first Enlightenment, led to questions about

在第一個啟蒙時代，這點引發種種問題，

the right of kings, the divine right of kings to rule over people,

像是國王的權利，國王統治人民的神聖正當性，

or that women should be subordinate to men,

或者女性應該順從男性，

or that the Church was the official word of God.

或者教會是上帝的官方語言。

Obviously the Church weren't very happy about this,

顯然教會不樂見此情形，

and they tried to suppress it,

於是他們試著壓制它，

but what they hadn't counted on was technology,

但他們沒想到的是科技，

and then they had the printing press, which suddenly

接著報紙印刷出現了，

enabled these ideas to spread cheaply, far and fast,

突然間這些想法可以很便宜地散播出去，又遠又快，

and people would come together in coffee houses,

於是人們會聚集在咖啡店，

discuss the ideas, plot revolution.

討論這些想法，策畫革命。

In our day, we have digitization. That strips all the physical mass out of information,

在我們的時代，我們有數位化。 刪減了資訊的實體體積，

so now it's almost zero cost to copy and share information.

所以現在複製和分享資訊幾乎是不需要成本的。

Our printing press is the Internet. Our coffee houses are social networks.

我們的報紙印刷是網際網路， 我們的咖啡店是社群網路。

We're moving to what I would think of as a fully connected system,

我們進入我所認為的一個完整連接的系統，

and we have global decisions to make in this system,

在這個系統內，我們可以作全球的決定，

decisions about climate, about finance systems,

關於氣候、關於財政系統、

about resources. And think about it --

關於資源等的決定。仔細想想 --

if we want to make an important decision about buying a house,

如果我們要做買房子的重大決定，

we don't just go off. I mean, I don't know about you,

我們不會一次決定。我不清楚你們會怎麼做，

but I want to see a lot of houses before I put that much money into it.

但在我花了這麼多錢之前，我會去看很多房子。

And if we're thinking about a finance system,

如果我們想到一個財政系統，

we need a lot of information to take in. It's just not possible

我們需要吸收很多的資訊。

for one person to take in the amount, the volume

一個人不可能吸收這麼大量的資訊，

of information, and analyze it to make good decisions.

進行分析而下對決定。

So that's why we're seeing increasingly this demand

這也是為什麼我們可看到日漸增加的

for access to information.

取得資訊的需求。

That's why we're starting to see more disclosure laws

這也是為什麼我們開始看到愈來愈多的

come out, so for example, on the environment,

揭露法出現，舉例來說，在環境方面，

there's the Aarhus Convention,

有奧胡斯公約，

which is a European directive that gives people

這是一個歐洲的指令，賦予人們強烈的

a very strong right to know, so if your water company

可得知的權力，於是如果你的自來水公司

is dumping water into your river, sewage water

將汙水排放到你的河流裡，

into your river, you have a right to know about it.

你有知道的權力。

In the finance industry, you now have more of a right

在金融業裡，你絕對有權力

to know about what's going on, so we have

知道目前發生什麼事，於是我們有

different anti-bribery laws, money regulations,

不同的反賄絡法，金錢管制，

increased corporate disclosure, so you can now track assets across borders.

增加的企業揭露，所以現在你可以跨界追蹤資產。

And it's getting harder to hide assets, tax avoidance,

而且要隱藏資產，避稅，支付不平等工資都日漸困難。

pay inequality. So that's great. We're starting to find out

這很棒。我們正開始要在這些系統中

more and more about these systems.

挖掘愈來愈多的東西。

And they're all moving to this central system,

而且這些都往中央系統移動，

this fully connected system,

這個完全連接的系統，

all of them except one. Can you guess which one?

只缺了一個就完整了。你猜得到是哪一個嗎？

It's the system which underpins all these other systems.

它是所有其它的系統的基礎。

It's the system by which we organize and exercise power,

是我們組織且操用權力的根據，

and there I'm talking about politics, because in politics,

我指的是政治，因為在政治方面，

we're back to this system, this top-down hierarchy.

我們回歸到這個系統，這個綜合的等級制度。

And how is it possible that the volume of information

於是需要在此系統中的大量資訊，

can be processed that needs to in this system?

怎麼有可能會被分析呢？

Well, it just can't. That's it.

嗯，答案就是不可能。就是如此。

And I think this is largely what's behind the crisis

我認為這是大量隱藏在我們現有不同政府的

of legitimacy in our different governments right now.

合法性的危機底下。

So I've told you a bit about what I did

我已經跟你們分享一些我做過的事，

to try and drag Parliament, kicking and screaming,

無所不用其極地想把國會帶進

into the 21st century, and I'm just going to give you

21世紀，我要再說兩個

a couple of examples of what a few other people I know

其他我認識的人正在做的事

are doing.

的例子。

So this is a guy called Seb Bacon. He's a computer

有的名叫 Seb Bacon 的人。他是個電腦程式

programmer, and he built a site called Alaveteli,

設計師，他架了一個叫做 Alaveteli 的網站，

and what it is, it's a Freedom of Information platform.

這網站是一個資訊自由的平台。

It's open-source, with documentation, and it allows you

它是開放原始碼的，有文件資料，

to make a Freedom of Information request,

且允許人們提出資訊自由的請求，

to ask your public body a question, so

詢問相關大眾一個問題，

it takes all the hassle out of it, and I can tell you

它把所有的麻煩都刪去，我跟你保證

that there is a lot of hassle making these requests,

提出這些請求就是有很多麻煩，

so it takes all of that hassle out, and you just type in your question,

它把麻煩省了，而你所做的只是輸入你的問題，

for example, how many police officers have a criminal record?

舉例來說，多少警察有犯罪前科？

It zooms it off to the appropriate person, it tells you

網站會將問題轉移到合適的人身上，

when the time limit is coming to an end, it keeps track of all

當期限快到的時候，你會被網站告知，網站也會持續

the correspondence, it posts it up there,

追蹤所有的相關通信資訊，將資訊發布在網站上，

and it becomes an archive of public knowledge.

變成大眾知識的檔案庫。

So that's open-source and it can be used in any country

因為這網站是開放原始碼的，它可被應用在

where there is some kind of Freedom of Information law.

任何有資訊自由法的國家。

So there's a list there of the different countries that have it,

這裡有一張列出擁有資訊自由法的各個不同的國家清單，

and then there's a few more coming on board.

還有幾個國家正要加入。

So if any of you out there like the sound of that

如果你們當中有人欣賞這個想法

and have a law like that in your country,

且在你們的國家也有類似的法律，

I know that Seb would love to hear from you

我想 Seb 會很開心你和他聯絡，

about collaborating and getting that into your country.

一起合作將網站推廣到你的國家。

This is Birgitta Jónsdóttir. She's an Icelandic MP.

這是 Birgitta Jónsdóttir 。她是冰島的國會議員。

And quite an unusual MP. In Iceland, she was

可說是位相當不尋常的國會議員。在冰島，

one of the protesters who was outside of Parliament

當國家的經濟崩裂時，

when the country's economy collapsed,

她是站在國會外的抗議群眾之一，

and then she was elected on a reform mandate,

接著她被選為改革的代表，

and she's now spearheading this project.

現在她是這個企劃的先鋒部隊。

It's the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative,

此企劃就是冰島現代傳媒倡議，

and they've just got funding to make it an international

而且他們剛取得資金可以將它推廣成

modern media project, and this is taking all of the best laws

國際的現代傳媒企劃，也就是吸取

around the world about freedom of expression,

世界上最好的法律，包括表達的自由，

protection of whistleblowers, protection from libel,

保護告密者，不受毀謗的防護，

source protection, and trying to make Iceland a publishing haven.

來源防護，還有嘗試將冰島變成一個發布消息的避難所。

It's a place where your data can be free, so when we think

在那裏你的資訊可以自由，

about, increasingly, how governments want to access user data,

當我們愈來愈常想到政府多麼想要取得使用者資訊，

what they're trying to do in Iceland is make this safe haven

在冰島他們正在做的是建造一個可能成真的

where it can happen.

安全避難所。

In my own field of investigative journalism, we're also

在我所從事的調查型新聞領域，

having to start thinking globally, so this is a site called

我們也必須有全球型思維，於是有個叫作

Investigative Dashboard. And if you're trying to track

調查儀表版的網站。如果你要查詢

a dictator's assets, for example, Hosni Mubarak,

一個獨裁者的資產，舉例來說， Hosni Mubarak ，

you know, he's just funneling out cash from his country

你也知道，當他知道他身陷麻煩，

when he knows he's in trouble, and what you want to do

他將錢從他的國家流出去，而你要調查時，

to investigate that is, you need to have access to

你必需竭盡所能地

all of the world's, as many as you can,

取得全世界的

companies' house registrations databases.

公司的房屋註冊資料庫。

So this is a website that tries to agglomerate all of those

所以這是個試著凝聚所有資料庫

databases into one place so you can start searching for,

到一個網站，所以你可以查詢

you know, his relatives, his friends, the head of his security services.

他的親戚，他的朋友，他的國家安全部門的首長。

You can try and find out how he's moving out assets

你可以試著找出他如何將資產

from that country.

移出國內。

But again, when it comes to the decisions which are

但當我們講到影響我們最劇烈的決定，

impacting us the most, perhaps, the most important

或許最重要的決定是

decisions that are being made about war and so forth,

有關戰爭等等，

again we can't just make a Freedom of Information request.

我們不可能只是個提出資訊自由的請求。

It's really difficult. So we're still having to rely on

這是非常困難的。所以我們仍須依靠

illegitimate ways of getting information, through leaks.

不合法的手段或洩漏的消息來取來資訊。

So when the Guardian did this investigation about

於是當英國《衛報》調查

the Afghan War, you know, they can't walk into

阿富汗戰爭時，他們不能走進

the Department of Defense and ask for all the information.

國防部門要求取得所有的資訊。

You know, they're just not going to get it.

資訊不可能這樣到手。

So this came from leaks of tens of thousands of dispatches

所以資訊來自美國軍人寫下的

that were written by American soldiers

幾萬則有關阿富汗戰爭的快信中，

about the Afghan War, and leaked,

而且被洩露，

and then they're able to do this investigation.

接著他們才能進行調查。

Another rather large investigation is around world diplomacy.

另外一個相當大規模的調查是全球外交。

Again, this is all based around leaks,

再一次地，這也是全部根據洩露的訊息，

251,000 U.S. diplomatic cables, and I was involved

251,000 份美國外交的越洋電報，我也參與

in this investigation because I got this leak

了這件調查，因為我從一個

through a leak from a disgruntled WikiLeaker

很不開心的維基解密人員所洩漏的消息中取得資訊，

and ended up going to work at the Guardian.

結果我到英國《衛報》工作。

So I can tell you firsthand what it was like to have access

所以我可以跟你說取得此洩密的

to this leak. It was amazing. I mean, it was amazing.

第一手感覺。我的意思是，感覺非常的奇妙。

It reminded me of that scene in "The Wizard of Oz."

讓我想起《綠野仙蹤》的場景。

Do you know the one I mean? Where the little dog Toto

你知道我的意思嗎？當小狗多多

runs across to where the wizard [is], and he pulls back,

跑到巫師旁，巫師後退，

the dog's pulling back the curtain, and --

多多折回跑到布簾旁，接著 --

"Don't look behind the screen. Don't look at the man behind the screen."

「不要偷瞄布簾，不要看布簾後面那個人。」

It was just like that, because what you started to see

就像這樣，因為你開始看到的是

is that all of these grand statesmen, these very pompous

全部這些非常高貴的，浮誇的政治家，

politicians, they were just like us.

他們就跟我們一樣。

They all bitched about each other. I mean, quite gossipy,

他們都互相講彼此的壞話。我指的是這些電報

those cables. Okay, but I thought it was a very important

都滿八卦的。但我想我們應該要抓住

point for all of us to grasp, these are human beings

一個重點，這些人是跟我們一樣的人類。

just like us. They don't have special powers.

他們沒有特別的權力。

They're not magic. They are not our parents.

他們沒有魔法。他們不是我們的父母。

Beyond that, what I found most fascinating

除此之外，我發現最令人著迷的是

was the level of endemic corruption that I saw

我在所有不同國家中看到的

across all different countries, and particularly centered

每個地方特有的腐敗程度，

around the heart of power, around public officials

特別是集中在中心權力附近，盜用公眾財產

who were embezzling the public's money

來提升個人財富的公務員，

for their own personal enrichment, and allowed to do that

因為官方機密，

because of official secrecy.

他們可以下手。

So I've mentioned WikiLeaks, because surely what could be

我已經提到維基解密，因為有什麼可以比

more open than publishing all the material?

發布這些資訊更公開的事？

Because that is what Julian Assange did.

因為這就是 Julian Assange 所做的事。

He wasn't content with the way the newspapers published it

他不滿足於報紙講求安全和合法的

to be safe and legal. He threw it all out there.

發行方式。他將所有資訊釋出。

That did end up with vulnerable people in Afghanistan

的確最後在阿富汗 容易受傷害的人們被曝光。

being exposed. It also meant that the Belarussian dictator

這也代表白俄羅斯獨裁者

was given a handy list of all the pro-democracy campaigners

有了一份方便的名單，列出所在國家內

in that country who had spoken to the U.S. government.

和美國政府接洽過且支持民主的倡導者。

Is that radical openness? I say it's not, because for me,

這是很激進的開放性嗎？我覺得不是，因為對我而言，

what it means, it doesn't mean abdicating power,

這代表的不是放棄權力，

responsibility, accountability, it's actually being a partner

責任，可靠性，這其實是代表著擁有權力的夥伴。

with power. It's about sharing responsibility,

這是關於分享責任，

sharing accountability. Also, the fact that

分享責任。還有，

he threatened to sue me because I got a leak of his leaks,

他威脅要告我因為我有他的洩密的這項事實，

I thought that showed a remarkable sort of inconsistency

我想也這展現了一種值得注意的前後矛盾的意識，

in ideology, to be honest, as well. (Laughs)

老實說。(笑聲)

The other thing is that power is incredibly seductive,

另一件事是權力有令人不可置信的吸引力，

and you must have two real qualities, I think,

所以我想你一定要有兩種真的特質，

when you come to the table, when you're dealing

當你到桌前，當你操縱權力，

with power, talking about power,

談論權力，

because of its seductive capacity.

因為它的誘惑力。

You've got to have skepticism and humility.

你一定要能懷疑和保持謙卑。

Skepticism, because you must always be challenging.

懷疑，因為你一定要一直挑戰。

I want to see why do you -- you just say so? That's not good enough.

我要看到你剛剛這麼說的原因。那還不夠好。

I want to see the evidence behind why that's so.

我要看到為什麼那是這樣的證據。

And humility because we are all human. We all make mistakes.

而要謙虛是因為我們都是人類，我們都會犯錯。

And if you don't have skepticism and humility,

如果你不懂得懷疑和謙虛，

then it's a really short journey to go from reformer

改革者和獨裁者之間只有一線之隔，

to autocrat, and I think you only have to read "Animal Farm"

我想你只要讀過《動物農莊》

to get that message about how power corrupts people.

就能明白權力如何腐蝕人心。

So what is the solution? It is, I believe, to embody

那麼解決方案是什麼呢？ 我相信是要在法律規定下，

within the rule of law rights to information.

將取得資訊的權力具體化。

At the moment our rights are incredibly weak.

當下我們的權力真是令人不可置信地渺小。

In a lot of countries, we have Official Secrets Acts,

在很多國家，有實行官方機密法，

including in Britain here. We have an Official Secrets Act

包括在英國。我們有不為大眾利益著想的

with no public interest test. So that means it's a crime,

官方機密法。這代表著發布或者洩漏官方消息

people are punished, quite severely in a lot of cases,

是犯罪行為，在很多案例裡，

for publishing or giving away official information.

人們被嚴重地處罰。

Now wouldn't it be amazing, and really, this is what I want

試想這樣不是很好嗎？

all of you to think about, if we had an Official Disclosure Act

我要你們思考的是 如果我們有個官方的揭露法

where officials were punished if they were found

當官員被發現封鎖或者隱藏了

to have suppressed or hidden information

有關大眾利益的消息，

that was in the public interest?

他們會被處罰。

So that -- yes. Yes! My power pose. (Applause) (Laughs)

對！這就是我的權力姿勢。(掌聲)(笑聲)

I would like us to work towards that.

我希望我們能朝這個方向努力。

So it's not all bad news. I mean, there definitely is

所以並非全部都是壞消息。我的意思是，

progress on the line, but I think what we find is that

當然有在進步，但我想我們發現了

the closer that we get right into the heart of power,

當我們愈接近權力中心時，

the more opaque, closed it becomes.

它變得更模糊和封閉。

So it was only just the other week that I heard London's

某一週我聽到

Metropolitan Police Commissioner talking about why

倫敦警察局局長講到

the police need access to all of our communications,

為什麼警察需要取得我們所有的通聯記錄，

spying on us without any judicial oversight,

不在司法監督下可監視我們，

and he said it was a matter of life and death.

他說這是攸關生死的事情。

He actually said that, it was a matter of life and death.

他真的這麼說，攸關生死的事。

There was no evidence. He presented no evidence of that.

沒有證據。他沒有提出任何證據。

It was just, "Because I say so.

就像這樣，「因為我這麼說。

You have to trust me. Take it on faith."

你必須相信我。有信心。」

Well, I'm sorry, people, but we are back

嗯，我很抱歉，大家，但我們退化到

to the pre-Enlightenment Church,

啟蒙時代前的教會中，

and we need to fight against that.

所以我們必需抵抗。

So he was talking about the law in Britain which is

他所提到的英國法律是

the Communications Data Bill, an absolutely outrageous piece of legislation.

通訊資料法，一則相當可恥的立法。

In America, you have the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act.

在美國有網路情報分享及保護法。

You've got drones now being considered for domestic surveillance.

無人飛機被使來作國土監控。

You have the National Security Agency building

有一棟世界最大的監視中心

the world's giantest spy center. It's just this colossal --

也就是國家安全局。非常龐大 --

it's five times bigger than the U.S. Capitol,

是美國國會大廈的五倍大，

in which they're going to intercept and analyze

他們在裡面攔截和分析

communications, traffic and personal data

通聯紀錄、交通和個人資料，

to try and figure out who's the troublemaker in society.

試著找出誰是社會中製造麻煩的人。

Well, to go back to our original story, the parents

回到我們原本的故事，

have panicked. They've locked all the doors.

父母受了驚嚇。他們把全部的門都鎖起來。

They've kitted out the house with CCTV cameras.

他們在屋外都裝了 CCTV 監視攝影機。

They're watching all of us. They've dug a basement,

他們在監控我們。他們挖了一個地下室，

and they've built a spy center to try and run algorithms

而且建造一個監視中心，執行規則系統，

and figure out which ones of us are troublesome,

找出我們當中誰會找麻煩，

and if any of us complain about that, we're arrested for terrorism.

如果任何人抱怨，我們會因恐怖主義被逮捕。

Well, is that a fairy tale or a living nightmare?

這到底是童話故事還是活生生的夢靨呢？

Some fairy tales have happy endings. Some don't.

有些童話故事有美好結局。有些沒有。

I think we've all read the Grimms' fairy tales, which are,

我想我們都讀過格林童話，

indeed, very grim.

事實上是非常殘忍的。

But the world isn't a fairy tale, and it could be more brutal

但這個世界不是個童話故事，甚至有可能

than we want to acknowledge.

比我們願意承認得來的更加殘酷。

Equally, it could be better than we've been led to believe,

相同地，世界可以比我們過去被引導而相信得還要好，

but either way, we have to start seeing it exactly as it is,

但不管是哪個方式，我們必須開始看清事情真相，

with all of its problems, because it's only by seeing it

和所有的問題，因為只有藉著

with all of its problems that we'll be able to fix them

看清所有的問題，我們才能解決它們，

and live in a world in which we can all be

且活在一個我們全部都可以過得

happily ever after. (Laughs) Thank you very much.

更快樂的世界。(笑聲) 謝謝大家。

(Applause)

(掌聲)

Thank you. (Applause)

謝謝。(掌聲)