Read Montague: What we're learning from 5,000 brains

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

翻译人员: Candice Liu 校对人员: Yukun Chen

Other people. Everyone is interested in other people.

每个人都对其他人感兴趣

Everyone has relationships with other people,

每个人都与其他人建立这样那样的关系

and they're interested in these relationships

并且，人们因为各种各样的原因

for a variety of reasons.

对这些关系感兴趣

Good relationships, bad relationships,

好的关系，坏的关系

annoying relationships, agnostic relationships,

令人讨厌的关系，未知的关系等等

and what I'm going to do is focus on the central piece

我今天演讲的重点

of an interaction that goes on in a relationship.

是人际关系中“互动”的核心内容

So I'm going to take as inspiration the fact that we're all

我会从“人们都对

interested in interacting with other people,

与他人互动感兴趣” 这个事实出发，

I'm going to completely strip it of all its complicating features,

摒弃这个事实的复杂的特点

and I'm going to turn that object, that simplified object,

将其进行简化，然后把这个事实当作

into a scientific probe, and provide the early stages,

一个"科学探亲器"，并提供一些初期

embryonic stages of new insights into what happens

研究成果，试着从一个新的方面来阐释

in two brains while they simultaneously interact.

两个人在进行互动时他们大脑的活动。

But before I do that, let me tell you a couple of things

不过在此之前，我还要先介绍几种技术

that made this possible.

是这些技术让此研究成为可能。

The first is we can now eavesdrop safely

第一，我们现在已经可以

on healthy brain activity.

安全地侦测健康大脑的活动

Without needles and radioactivity,

不需要进行注射或者放射检查

without any kind of clinical reason, we can go down the street

也不需要有任何临床诊断的动因，我们就可以去

and record from your friends' and neighbors' brains

记录在你朋友或邻居在进行各类认知活动时

while they do a variety of cognitive tasks, and we use

大脑的活动，

a method called functional magnetic resonance imaging.

我们使用的方法叫做功能性磁振造影

You've probably all read about it or heard about in some

你们可能已经听过或者读过不同版本的功能性磁振造影

incarnation. Let me give you a two-sentence version of it.

那么我就简单地介绍一下

So we've all heard of MRIs. MRIs use magnetic fields

我们都听说过磁共振成像（简称MRIs）

and radio waves and they take snapshots of your brain

MRIs利用磁场和无线电波来给你的大脑，

or your knee or your stomach,

或膝盖，胃等“拍照”

grayscale images that are frozen in time.

它会把拍摄瞬间的活动以灰阶图记录下来

In the 1990s, it was discovered you could use

上世纪90年代，人们发现

the same machines in a different mode,

可以在不同模式下运用MRIs

and in that mode, you could make microscopic blood flow

在这一模式下，我们可以分别纪录大脑内

movies from hundreds of thousands of sites independently in the brain.

成千上百个小区域中任何一个的微观血液流动

Okay, so what? In fact, the so what is, in the brain,

好，这意味着什么呢？事实上，在大脑中

changes in neural activity, the things that make your brain work,

促使大脑运转的，

the things that make your software work in your brain,

使你大脑里的“软件”工作的，神经活动的变化

are tightly correlated with changes in blood flow.

与血流的变化息息相关

You make a blood flow movie, you have an independent

如果你能够纪录血流的变化

proxy of brain activity.

也就意味着能大致记录大脑的活动

This has literally revolutionized cognitive science.

这个发现极大地改变了认知科学

Take any cognitive domain you want, memory,

任何你想要了解的认知范围：记忆

motor planning, thinking about your mother-in-law,

动作计划，想到你的丈母娘，

getting angry at people, emotional response, it goes on and on,

对人生气，情绪反映等等

put people into functional MRI devices, and

把受试者放到磁共振成像仪下，

image how these kinds of variables map onto brain activity.

我们就能对不同脑部的活动进行成像

It's in its early stages, and it's crude by some measures,

这一技术还处在初期阶段，某种程度上来说还相对粗糙

but in fact, 20 years ago, we were at nothing.

但20年前，我们一无所有

You couldn't do people like this. You couldn't do healthy people.

我们还不可能拿健康的人来这样研究

That's caused a literal revolution, and it's opened us up

这一技术引发了一场真正的革命

to a new experimental preparation. Neurobiologists,

它使我们获得了新的实验对象

as you well know, have lots of experimental preps,

神经生物学家一直有很多实验对象

worms and rodents and fruit flies and things like this.

像蠕虫，啮齿类动物，果蝇等等

And now, we have a new experimental prep: human beings.

现在，我们可以研究人类了

We can now use human beings to study and model

我们可以研究人类并建造

the software in human beings, and we have a few

人类思维模型，同时

burgeoning biological measures.

我们还有其他新的生物测量技术。

Okay, let me give you one example of the kinds of experiments that people do,

举个以人类作为研究对象的例子，

and it's in the area of what you'd call valuation.

有这么一个概念：评价

Valuation is just what you think it is, you know?

简单来说就是你觉得某种东西怎么样

If you went and you were valuing two companies against

如果要你对两家公司进行对比评价

one another, you'd want to know which was more valuable.

你肯定会想了解哪一家公司更有价值

Cultures discovered the key feature of valuation thousands of years ago.

早在几千年前，人们就发觉了评价的关键特点

If you want to compare oranges to windshields, what do you do?

如果你要比较橙子和挡风玻璃，你会怎么做？

Well, you can't compare oranges to windshields.

当然，你不能直接比较这两者

They're immiscible. They don't mix with one another.

它们没有交集，没有可比性

So instead, you convert them to a common currency scale,

所以，你得将它们转换成一个共同的中间标准

put them on that scale, and value them accordingly.

然后在这个标准下再来进行评价比较

Well, your brain has to do something just like that as well,

你的大脑做的就是一些这样的工作

and we're now beginning to understand and identify

现在，我们开始了解并且识别

brain systems involved in valuation,

与“评价”有关的大脑系统

and one of them includes a neurotransmitter system

其中之一就是某个神经递质系统，

whose cells are located in your brainstem

其细胞位于脑干

and deliver the chemical dopamine to the rest of your brain.

并且向大脑的其他部位传递多巴胺

I won't go through the details of it, but that's an important

我不会赘述细节，你只需要知道这是个

discovery, and we know a good bit about that now,

重要的发现，而且我们现在已经知道很多了，

and it's just a small piece of it, but it's important because

但这也只是其中很小的一部分，但它相当重要

those are the neurons that you would lose if you had Parkinson's disease,

因为如果得了帕金森症，这些神经元就没了

and they're also the neurons that are hijacked by literally

它们也是

every drug of abuse, and that makes sense.

几乎所有毒品所危害的对象

Drugs of abuse would come in, and they would change

毒品会改变

the way you value the world. They change the way

你看待世界的方式

you value the symbols associated with your drug of choice,

改变你怎样理解那些与所服用的毒品相联系的符号，

and they make you value that over everything else.

从而使你觉得毒品比任何其他东西都重要。

Here's the key feature though. These neurons are also

关键的是，这些神经元与

involved in the way you can assign value to literally abstract ideas,

你怎样赋予抽象概念特定价值有关

and I put some symbols up here that we assign value to

这里有一些符号，我们会因为不同的原因

for various reasons.

给它们赋予一定的价值

We have a behavioral superpower in our brain,

我们大脑中有着一个决定行为的上层力量，

and it at least in part involves dopamine.

而其至少需要多巴胺。

We can deny every instinct we have for survival for an idea,

我们可以为了一个想法而否定所有的生存本能，仅仅一个想法。

for a mere idea. No other species can do that.

没有任何其他种生物可以做到这一点。

In 1997, the cult Heaven's Gate committed mass suicide

1997年，邪教 “天堂之门” 的信徒集体自杀

predicated on the idea that there was a spaceship

因为他们相信在

hiding in the tail of the then-visible comet Hale-Bopp

海尔波普彗星的尾巴里藏着一艘宇宙飞船

waiting to take them to the next level. It was an incredibly tragic event.

会带他们到一个全新的境界。这一惨剧轰动一时。

More than two thirds of them had college degrees.

超过2/3的自杀者有大学学位。

But the point here is they were able to deny their instincts for survival

这件事情告诉我们的重点是，他们可以用让自己生存了

using exactly the same systems that were put there

这么多年的系统来否定自己的生存本能。

to make them survive. That's a lot of control, okay?

这是很大的控制力，对不对？

One thing that I've left out of this narrative

我在这个例子里遗漏了一点

is the obvious thing, which is the focus of the rest of my

而这正是接下来我演讲的重点，

little talk, and that is other people.

那就是“ 其他人”。

These same valuation systems are redeployed

当我们评价与他人的互动时，

when we're valuing interactions with other people.

同样的评价系统会进行重组。

So this same dopamine system that gets addicted to drugs,

于是，这个可以让人吸毒成瘾的多巴胺系统，

that makes you freeze when you get Parkinson's disease,

这个可以让人在得了帕金森症后无法动弹的，

that contributes to various forms of psychosis,

同时也可以引起多种形式精神疾病的系统，

is also redeployed to value interactions with other people

在我们与其他人产生互动时重组，

and to assign value to gestures that you do

并且对你与他人互动时的手势

when you're interacting with somebody else.

赋予特定的意义。

Let me give you an example of this.

让我举个例子。

You bring to the table such enormous processing power

你在与人互动时，可挥出自己所没有意识到的

in this domain that you hardly even notice it.

的巨大的分析处理能力。

Let me just give you a few examples. So here's a baby.

这里有一些图片：第一张是个婴儿

She's three months old. She still poops in her diapers and she can't do calculus.

她才三个月大，仍然整天包着尿布，当然也不会计算。

She's related to me. Somebody will be very glad that she's up here on the screen.

她是我的一个亲戚。 （她爸妈）一定会很高兴看到她的照片出现在这里。

You can cover up one of her eyes, and you can still read

当你蒙住她的一只眼睛，你仍然可以

something in the other eye, and I see sort of curiosity

从另一只眼睛里看出些什么，我在一只眼睛里

in one eye, I see maybe a little bit of surprise in the other.

看到了好奇，另一只里则好像是一些惊奇

Here's a couple. They're sharing a moment together,

这是一对情侣，他们正在分享美好的时刻

and we've even done an experiment where you can cut out

我们做了个实验，从这张照片里

different pieces of this frame and you can still see

截取不同的部分，但你仍然可以看出

that they're sharing it. They're sharing it sort of in parallel.

他们在分享这一刻，这种分享似乎是对应的

Now, the elements of the scene also communicate this

照片中的其他元素同样可以传递这样的信息，

to us, but you can read it straight off their faces,

但从他们脸上我们可以更直接地读出来，

and if you compare their faces to normal faces, it would be a very subtle cue.

如果你把这两张脸和一般的脸做对比， 你会发现，那些（能告诉他们在互动的）信息并不很明显

Here's another couple. He's projecting out at us,

这是另一对情侣，男的表情是看着我们的，

and she's clearly projecting, you know,

女人则非常明显地表现出了

love and admiration at him.

对这个他的爱慕。

Here's another couple. (Laughter)

这里还有一对（笑声）。

And I'm thinking I'm not seeing love and admiration on the left. (Laughter)

我从左边这位的脸上可没看出什么爱慕之情（笑声）。

In fact, I know this is his sister, and you can just see

事实上，我知道这是他的姐姐，你似乎

him saying, "Okay, we're doing this for the camera,

可以听见他说：“好吧，面对镜头就装装样子

and then afterwards you steal my candy and you punch me in the face." (Laughter)

一会你就会偷我的糖，还打我的脸。” （笑声）

He'll kill me for showing that.

我把这张照片放上来，他一定很想杀了我。

All right, so what does this mean?

好，这又说明了什么呢？

It means we bring an enormous amount of processing power to the problem.

这意味着我们拥有巨大的处理分析问题的能力，

It engages deep systems in our brain, in dopaminergic

它藏在我们大脑的深处，

systems that are there to make you chase sex, food and salt.

正是同样的这个多巴胺能系统让我们追求异性，食物和盐。

They keep you alive. It gives them the pie, it gives

使我们生存下去。它给我们像食物一样的

that kind of a behavioral punch which we've called a superpower.

行为动力，我们称之为“上层决定力”的行为动力。

So how can we take that and arrange a kind of staged

那么我们应该如何用这些已知的，来安排特定的

social interaction and turn that into a scientific probe?

社交互动，然后把这个互动变成“科学探测器”？

And the short answer is games.

答案是博弈。

Economic games. So what we do is we go into two areas.

经济学中的博弈分为两种

One area is called experimental economics. The other area is called behavioral economics.

一个是实验经济学，另一个是行为经济学

And we steal their games. And we contrive them to our own purposes.

我们要借用它的博弈，来为我们的研究服务

So this shows you one particular game called an ultimatum game.

这张图片显示的是博弈的一种，叫做”最后通牒“。

Red person is given a hundred dollars and can offer

小红人可以得到100美元，并且可以分一些给小蓝人

a split to blue. Let's say red wants to keep 70,

假设小红人想留下70美元，

and offers blue 30. So he offers a 70-30 split with blue.

给小蓝人30, 也就是七三分。

Control passes to blue, and blue says, "I accept it,"

现在决定权给了小蓝人，他可以说

in which case he'd get the money, or blue says,

“我接受”，他就能得到30美元，

"I reject it," in which case no one gets anything. Okay?

但如果他说“我不接受”，两个人都得不到钱。

So a rational choice economist would say, well,

经济学家认为，理性选择的话

you should take all non-zero offers.

你应该接受任何不为零的所得

What do people do? People are indifferent at an 80-20 split.

但人们通常会怎么做呢？ 对于八二分成，人们的选择没有明显的倾向，

At 80-20, it's a coin flip whether you accept that or not.

接受率就和抛硬币一样，大概是一半一半

Why is that? You know, because you're pissed off.

这是为什么呢？因为你生气了，

You're mad. That's an unfair offer, and you know what an unfair offer is.

你觉得这个交易是不公平的， 而且你知道什么是不公平的开价

This is the kind of game done by my lab and many around the world.

我们在实验室里用这样的博弈 世界上还有许多其他学者也用它

That just gives you an example of the kind of thing that

这个例子告诉你，用这类博弈可以探测到的东西。

these games probe. The interesting thing is, these games

有趣的是，这样的博弈实验

require that you have a lot of cognitive apparatus on line.

需要动用大量的认知机能

You have to be able to come to the table with a proper model of another person.

你必须在博弈前就估计对方是什么样的人。

You have to be able to remember what you've done.

你必须记得住自己做了什么。

You have to stand up in the moment to do that.

你必须在正确的时刻做。

Then you have to update your model based on the signals coming back,

你得根据得到的反馈来更新你对对方的认识

and you have to do something that is interesting,

有趣的是

which is you have to do a kind of depth of thought assay.

你还得进行非常深入地思考，

That is, you have to decide what that other person expects of you.

你要决定对方对你的期望是什么。

You have to send signals to manage your image in their mind.

你需要发出信号，以建立你在他们眼里的形象。

Like a job interview. You sit across the desk from somebody,

就好像工作面试，你和招聘官隔桌而坐，

they have some prior image of you,

他们对你有一个先决的印象，

you send signals across the desk to move their image

你则发出信号，将你在他们眼中的形象

of you from one place to a place where you want it to be.

转变成你想要的样子。

We're so good at this we don't really even notice it.

我们其实很擅长这个，以至于自己都没有意识到。

These kinds of probes exploit it. Okay?

这类”探测器“（博弈）正是在探究这方面的问题。

In doing this, what we've discovered is that humans

我们发现，在社交活动中

are literal canaries in social exchanges.

人类就好像金丝雀。

Canaries used to be used as kind of biosensors in mines.

过去，人们在煤矿里将金丝雀作为生物感应器

When methane built up, or carbon dioxide built up,

当甲烷或二氧化碳含量过高，

or oxygen was diminished, the birds would swoon

或者氧气减少时， 金丝雀会比人类先昏过去--

before people would -- so it acted as an early warning system:

就好像一种预警系统：

Hey, get out of the mine. Things aren't going so well.

“伙计，快点出矿去，有什么不太对劲。”

People come to the table, and even these very blunt,

人们进行互动时，即使是非常简单直接的,

staged social interactions, and they, and there's just

特定安排的社交活动，

numbers going back and forth between the people,

交流的只是数字，

and they bring enormous sensitivities to it.

人们也可以给予这样的交流无数敏感的内涵

So we realized we could exploit this, and in fact,

所以我们意识到，我们可以从这个方面着手研究

as we've done that, and we've done this now in

事实上，现在我们已经对

many thousands of people, I think on the order of

五六千人做了这样的研究。

five or six thousand. We actually, to make this

实际上，要成为生物“探测器”，

a biological probe, need bigger numbers than that,

我们还需要更多的人数。

remarkably so. But anyway,

不过，无论如何

patterns have emerged, and we've been able to take

我们已经发现了规律

those patterns, convert them into mathematical models,

并且将其转化为数学模型，

and use those mathematical models to gain new insights

然后再利用这些模型来获得对（人们间）信息交流新的发现

into these exchanges. Okay, so what?

好的，这又意味着什么？

Well, the so what is, that's a really nice behavioral measure,

这意味着这是一个非常好的行为度量衡，

the economic games bring to us notions of optimal play.

经济学中的博弈给我们提供了“最优策略”的概念。

We can compute that during the game.

我们可以计算在博弈中的最优策略。

And we can use that to sort of carve up the behavior.

并以此来划分行为。

Here's the cool thing. Six or seven years ago,

六七年前，

we developed a team. It was at the time in Houston, Texas.

我们在德克萨斯州的休斯顿建立了一个团队，

It's now in Virginia and London. And we built software

现在他们在弗吉尼亚州和伦敦。

that'll link functional magnetic resonance imaging devices

我们制作了一个软件，将功能性磁振造影仪

up over the Internet. I guess we've done up to six machines

连接上因特网，大概一次可以连接六台仪器，

at a time, but let's just focus on two.

不过我们现在先来看其中的两台。

So it synchronizes machines anywhere in the world.

这个软件可以让世界上任何(MRI)仪器同步。

We synchronize the machines, set them into these

我们先同步两台仪器，并让受测者进行上述

staged social interactions, and we eavesdrop on both

特设的社交活动，然后我们就可以监测

of the interacting brains. So for the first time,

双方的脑部活动。所以，有史以来第一次，

we don't have to look at just averages over single individuals,

我们不需要看平均数据，

or have individuals playing computers, or try to make

或者让个体操作电脑，

inferences that way. We can study individual dyads.

或者是试着用电脑干扰。我们可以研究每两个互动的个体。

We can study the way that one person interacts with another person,

可以研究人与人之间互动的方式，

turn the numbers up, and start to gain new insights

如果继续扩大样本数，我们会开始

into the boundaries of normal cognition,

在一般认知层面也获得新的发现，

but more importantly, we can put people with

更重要的是，我们可以让

classically defined mental illnesses, or brain damage,

传统上被定义为患有精神疾病或脑损伤的病人，

into these social interactions, and use these as probes of that.

进行这样的社交互动，并利用他们的数据来“探测” 精神疾病。

So we've started this effort. We've made a few hits,

我们也已经开始了这样的研究。

a few, I think, embryonic discoveries.

并有了一些初期成果。

We think there's a future to this. But it's our way

我们认为这里面的前景非常乐观。

of going in and redefining, with a new lexicon,

但我们需要用新的数学词汇来进行

a mathematical one actually, as opposed to the standard

重新定义，改变传统上对

ways that we think about mental illness,

精神疾病的看法，

characterizing these diseases, by using the people

并发现这些疾病的特质，用人来做这些疾病“探测器”，

as birds in the exchanges. That is, we exploit the fact

就像“报警的金丝雀”一样。我们让健康的同伴

that the healthy partner, playing somebody with major depression,

来与重度抑郁症患者，

or playing somebody with autism spectrum disorder,

自闭症患者，

or playing somebody with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,

或者多动症患者，进行互动

we use that as a kind of biosensor, and then we use

将他们的互动作为“生物感应器”，然后

computer programs to model that person, and it gives us

利用电脑程序给受试者建立模型......

a kind of assay of this.

像这样的试验。

Early days, and we're just beginning, we're setting up sites

早些时候我们还在起步阶段，我们在世界各地都建立了实验点。

around the world. Here are a few of our collaborating sites.

这是其中几个与我们合作的点，

The hub, ironically enough,

够讽刺的是，中转站，

is centered in little Roanoke, Virginia.

位于弗吉尼亚州的罗阿诺克市。

There's another hub in London, now, and the rest

现在还有一个中转站在伦敦，余下的也正在

are getting set up. We hope to give the data away

建设当中。我们希望在今后的某个阶段，

at some stage. That's a complicated issue

可以发表我们的研究数据。不过要让

about making it available to the rest of the world.

所有人都能使用这些数据，是个很复杂的问题。

But we're also studying just a small part

人类本身是如此的有趣，

of what makes us interesting as human beings, and so

而我们的研究只针对于其中很小的一部分，

I would invite other people who are interested in this

所以我非常欢迎其他对此感兴趣的朋友

to ask us for the software, or even for guidance

向我们索要软件，

on how to move forward with that.

或是如何利用这些软件进行研究的指导。

Let me leave you with one thought in closing.

现在，让我提出一个想法作为结束，

The interesting thing about studying cognition

从某种程度上来说，研究认知科学

has been that we've been limited, in a way.

的趣味在于人本身的局限性。

We just haven't had the tools to look at interacting brains

我们现在还没有可以即时呈现脑部运动

simultaneously.

的工具

The fact is, though, that even when we're alone,

事实上，即使我们独处的时候，

we're a profoundly social creature. We're not a solitary mind

我们仍然是不折不扣的社会性动物。

built out of properties that kept it alive in the world

我们并不是独立于其他人

independent of other people. In fact, our minds

而存在于这个世界上的。事实上，

depend on other people. They depend on other people,

我们的思想是依靠其他人而存在的，

and they're expressed in other people,

并通过其他的人表现出来，

so the notion of who you are, you often don't know

所以，对于“我是谁”这个问题，

who you are until you see yourself in interaction with people

你在没有与其他人互动之前，通常是没有答案的

that are close to you, people that are enemies of you,

这些人可以是与你亲近的人，你的敌人

people that are agnostic to you.

或其他看似不相关的人。

So this is the first sort of step into using that insight

以上就是我们对“什么让我们成为人类”这一问题

into what makes us human beings, turning it into a tool,

的初步研究，我们将其转化为工具

and trying to gain new insights into mental illness.

希望能在精神疾病方面取得新突破

Thanks for having me. (Applause)

谢谢大家（鼓掌）

(Applause)

（鼓掌）