Read Montague: What we're learning from 5,000 brains

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

譯者: Jonas Lau 審譯者: Serena Chang

Other people. Everyone is interested in other people.

他人。每個人都對別人感興趣。

Everyone has relationships with other people,

每個人跟別人都有關係，

and they're interested in these relationships

而且因為各式各樣的原因

for a variety of reasons.

他們都對這些關係感興趣。

Good relationships, bad relationships,

好的關係，壞的關係，

annoying relationships, agnostic relationships,

惱人的關係，失去信任的關係，

and what I'm going to do is focus on the central piece

而我將要做的，就是集中探討在

of an interaction that goes on in a relationship.

一段關係上互動的核心

So I'm going to take as inspiration the fact that we're all

我將以「我們都對與人互動感興趣」

interested in interacting with other people,

的事實作為啓發

I'm going to completely strip it of all its complicating features,

我將要徹底脫掉它複雜的外表

and I'm going to turn that object, that simplified object,

我要轉換這個東西，這個精簡的東西

into a scientific probe, and provide the early stages,

將它變成一個科學的探針，為你展示

embryonic stages of new insights into what happens

兩個腦袋同時互動的時候，帶給我們的

in two brains while they simultaneously interact.

一些初步的、原始的啟發

But before I do that, let me tell you a couple of things

但在此之前，讓我告訴你

that made this possible.

這些事情是如何達成的

The first is we can now eavesdrop safely

首先，我們現在可以安全地竊聽

on healthy brain activity.

健全腦袋的運作

Without needles and radioactivity,

不需要針頭和放射物質

without any kind of clinical reason, we can go down the street

不需要任何醫療理由，我們只要走到街上

and record from your friends' and neighbors' brains

當你的朋友和鄰居正在做各式各樣的認知活動時

while they do a variety of cognitive tasks, and we use

用一種叫做「功能性磁力共振造影 (fMRI)」的方法

a method called functional magnetic resonance imaging.

紀錄他們腦袋的活動

You've probably all read about it or heard about in some

你們可能都讀過或聽過「影像化」

incarnation. Let me give you a two-sentence version of it.

讓我用兩個句子來描述它

So we've all heard of MRIs. MRIs use magnetic fields

我們都聽過「磁力共振造影 (MRI)」。磁力共振造影使用磁場

and radio waves and they take snapshots of your brain

和無線電波，它們可以照下你的大腦

or your knee or your stomach,

或你的膝蓋，或你的肚子的快照

grayscale images that are frozen in time.

一些凝結在時空中的黑白影像

In the 1990s, it was discovered you could use

1990 年代，人們發現可以在不同模式中

the same machines in a different mode,

使用同一個儀器

and in that mode, you could make microscopic blood flow

在那個模式下，你可以製作從腦內

movies from hundreds of thousands of sites independently in the brain.

成千上萬個據點微觀血液流動的影片

Okay, so what? In fact, the so what is, in the brain,

好，那又怎樣？事實上，那個「那又怎樣」就反映你腦內

changes in neural activity, the things that make your brain work,

神經的活動，那些使你的大腦運作

the things that make your software work in your brain,

使你大腦中的軟體運作的東西

are tightly correlated with changes in blood flow.

與腦中血流的改變有著密切關係

You make a blood flow movie, you have an independent

你製作血液流動的影片，你就有一個獨立的

proxy of brain activity.

大腦活動估算

This has literally revolutionized cognitive science.

這簡直徹底改變了認知科學

Take any cognitive domain you want, memory,

選擇任何一個你想到的認知領域，記憶、

motor planning, thinking about your mother-in-law,

動作規劃、 想一想你的岳母、

getting angry at people, emotional response, it goes on and on,

對人生氣，情緒反應，諸如此類的

put people into functional MRI devices, and

將人放進 fMRI 設備中，並且

image how these kinds of variables map onto brain activity.

想像這些變量如何與大腦活動相關

It's in its early stages, and it's crude by some measures,

這個測量工具，在某個層面上，還在早期發展階段當中

but in fact, 20 years ago, we were at nothing.

但事實上，20 年前，我們什麼都沒有

You couldn't do people like this. You couldn't do healthy people.

你不能這樣測量人類。你不能測量健康的人類

That's caused a literal revolution, and it's opened us up

事實上這的確是一場革命，它為我們提供了

to a new experimental preparation. Neurobiologists,

一個新的實驗對象。眾所皆知，生物神經學家

as you well know, have lots of experimental preps,

有很多的實驗對象

worms and rodents and fruit flies and things like this.

像是蠕蟲、齧齒(鼠)類動物和果蠅這樣的東西

And now, we have a new experimental prep: human beings.

現在，我們有新的實驗對象: 人類

We can now use human beings to study and model

現在，我們可以使用人類來研究和模擬

the software in human beings, and we have a few

人類當中的軟體運作，我們有幾個

burgeoning biological measures.

發展迅速的生物實驗方法

Okay, let me give you one example of the kinds of experiments that people do,

好吧，讓我給你們一個人們正在做的實驗例子

and it's in the area of what you'd call valuation.

而這是在一個被你們所稱為估算的領域

Valuation is just what you think it is, you know?

估算就是你所想的那種，你知道嗎？

If you went and you were valuing two companies against

如果你去估算兩家互相對抗的公司

one another, you'd want to know which was more valuable.

你會想知道哪一家比較有價值

Cultures discovered the key feature of valuation thousands of years ago.

人類文明早在數千年前就發現估算的關鍵

If you want to compare oranges to windshields, what do you do?

如果你想比較橘子和擋風玻璃，你會怎樣做？

Well, you can't compare oranges to windshields.

嗯，你不能比較橘子和擋風玻璃

They're immiscible. They don't mix with one another.

它們是不能相提並論的。他們不能彼此混在一起

So instead, you convert them to a common currency scale,

於是，你將它們轉換為貨幣單位

put them on that scale, and value them accordingly.

把它們放進這個單位，再以此衡量它們的價值

Well, your brain has to do something just like that as well,

嗯，你的大腦必須做類似的事情

and we're now beginning to understand and identify

而我們現在將開始瞭解並辨別出

brain systems involved in valuation,

大腦系統用作估算的部分

and one of them includes a neurotransmitter system

其中包括神經傳遞物質系統

whose cells are located in your brainstem

這些細胞位於你的腦幹

and deliver the chemical dopamine to the rest of your brain.

它向大腦的其他部位傳遞多巴胺(dopamine)

I won't go through the details of it, but that's an important

我不講細節，但這是一個很重要的

discovery, and we know a good bit about that now,

發現，我們現在又多了解多一些

and it's just a small piece of it, but it's important because

雖然只是當中的一小部分，但它有重要的意義，因為

those are the neurons that you would lose if you had Parkinson's disease,

如果你有帕金森氏症，你就是因為失去了這些神經元

and they're also the neurons that are hijacked by literally

而且在每次的藥物濫用中，這些神經元

every drug of abuse, and that makes sense.

都會被威脅到，這是有原因的。

Drugs of abuse would come in, and they would change

濫用藥物會 進入我們的神經系統，然後他們會改變

the way you value the world. They change the way

你估算世界的方式。他們改變

you value the symbols associated with your drug of choice,

你估算藥物選擇相關的訊號，

and they make you value that over everything else.

他們讓你覺得這些藥物比一切都重要

Here's the key feature though. These neurons are also

這是關鍵的功能。這些神經元也是

involved in the way you can assign value to literally abstract ideas,

在你為抽象概念分配價值時起作用

and I put some symbols up here that we assign value to

我在這裏放了一些我們會因為不同原因

for various reasons.

為它們分配價值的符號

We have a behavioral superpower in our brain,

我們的大腦有一個操控行為的超級力量

and it at least in part involves dopamine.

而它至少有一部分與多巴胺有關

We can deny every instinct we have for survival for an idea,

我們可以為一個想法放棄一切我們賴以為生的本能

for a mere idea. No other species can do that.

只為一個的想法。沒有其他的物種可以這樣做

In 1997, the cult Heaven's Gate committed mass suicide

1997 年，邪教「天堂之門」集體自殺

predicated on the idea that there was a spaceship

因為他們斷言有一架飛船

hiding in the tail of the then-visible comet Hale-Bopp

隱藏在那時可見的「海爾-博普彗星」的尾巴

waiting to take them to the next level. It was an incredibly tragic event.

等著把他們帶到另一個境界。這是一件令人難以置信的悲劇

More than two thirds of them had college degrees.

他們當中三分之二以上持有大專學位

But the point here is they were able to deny their instincts for survival

但這裡的要點是，他們用那個令他們

using exactly the same systems that were put there

生存的系統、那個完全相同的系統

to make them survive. That's a lot of control, okay?

去否定他們生存的本能。這裏需要大量的控制，是嗎?

One thing that I've left out of this narrative

在這個敍述裏我沒有提及一件事

is the obvious thing, which is the focus of the rest of my

一個顯而易見的東西，這是我這小小的演講中

little talk, and that is other people.

餘下部分的重點，這就是其他人

These same valuation systems are redeployed

這些相同的估算系統

when we're valuing interactions with other people.

在我們與其他人估算互動時會作出調動

So this same dopamine system that gets addicted to drugs,

所以這相同的多巴胺系統，這個會對藥物上癮的系統

that makes you freeze when you get Parkinson's disease,

使得你在得了帕金森病時動彈不得

that contributes to various forms of psychosis,

誘發各種形式精神病的系統

is also redeployed to value interactions with other people

亦是在你與其他人進行互動時

and to assign value to gestures that you do

用以估算你們之間的互動

when you're interacting with somebody else.

以及為各種姿勢分配價值的系統

Let me give you an example of this.

讓我舉一個例子

You bring to the table such enormous processing power

你在這個領域有一種這樣巨大的

in this domain that you hardly even notice it.

處理能力，你幾乎很難注意到它

Let me just give you a few examples. So here's a baby.

讓我舉幾個例子。這裡是一個嬰兒

She's three months old. She still poops in her diapers and she can't do calculus.

她三個月大。她仍然在她的紙尿褲上排泄，亦不能做微積分

She's related to me. Somebody will be very glad that she's up here on the screen.

她與我有關。有人將會因為她在這螢幕出現顯得非常高興

You can cover up one of her eyes, and you can still read

你可以掩蓋了她的一隻眼睛，但仍可以讀取

something in the other eye, and I see sort of curiosity

她另一隻眼中的訊號，我在她的一隻眼中

in one eye, I see maybe a little bit of surprise in the other.

看到的好奇心，在另一隻眼睛看到一點驚喜

Here's a couple. They're sharing a moment together,

這裡有幾個其他例子。他們正在共享一個時刻

and we've even done an experiment where you can cut out

我們甚至做了一個實驗，您可以剪出

different pieces of this frame and you can still see

此框架的不同部分，但仍然可以看到

that they're sharing it. They're sharing it sort of in parallel.

他們正共享一個時刻。他們好像在同時分享這個時刻

Now, the elements of the scene also communicate this

現在，那背景當中的某些元素也向我們

to us, but you can read it straight off their faces,

傳達這個訊息，但你可以從他們的臉上直接感受得到

and if you compare their faces to normal faces, it would be a very subtle cue.

如果你將他們的臉與正常的臉對比， 它只是一個非常微小的訊號

Here's another couple. He's projecting out at us,

這裡是另一對情侶。男方面向我們

and she's clearly projecting, you know,

而女方清楚地表示，你知道吧，

love and admiration at him.

她對他的愛戴和欽佩

Here's another couple. (Laughter)

這裡是另一對組合。（笑聲）

And I'm thinking I'm not seeing love and admiration on the left. (Laughter)

我想我在左側的男孩身上還沒看到愛戴和欽佩。（笑聲）

In fact, I know this is his sister, and you can just see

事實上，我知道這是他的姐姐，你可以想像

him saying, "Okay, we're doing this for the camera,

他說，「好吧，我們都只是在相機前擺姿勢吧

and then afterwards you steal my candy and you punch me in the face." (Laughter)

事後你偷了我的糖果，你又打我的臉。」（笑聲）

He'll kill me for showing that.

他會因為我展示這張相片而殺了我

All right, so what does this mean?

好吧，那麼這意味著什麼呢？

It means we bring an enormous amount of processing power to the problem.

它意味著我們用大量的處理能力的來解決問題

It engages deep systems in our brain, in dopaminergic

它涉及我們大腦深層的多巴胺系統

systems that are there to make you chase sex, food and salt.

令你追逐的性、 食物和鹽

They keep you alive. It gives them the pie, it gives

它們使你活著。它給它們一個圓餅，它使

that kind of a behavioral punch which we've called a superpower.

我們的行為充滿活力，我們稱之為一個超級力量

So how can we take that and arrange a kind of staged

那麼我們如何可以量度，並安排上演一場

social interaction and turn that into a scientific probe?

預先設定社交互動場景，把它變成科學探索的工具呢?

And the short answer is games.

簡短的回答是遊戲

Economic games. So what we do is we go into two areas.

經濟遊戲。所以我們做的是進入兩個領域

One area is called experimental economics. The other area is called behavioral economics.

一個領域被稱為實驗經濟學 另外一個領域被稱為行為經濟學。

And we steal their games. And we contrive them to our own purposes.

我們偷取他們的遊戲。我們用它們謀劃自己的目的

So this shows you one particular game called an ultimatum game.

所以，這裏展示一個稱為「最後通牒」的遊戲

Red person is given a hundred dollars and can offer

紅色的人有一百美元，他可以與

a split to blue. Let's say red wants to keep 70,

藍色的人分享這一百元。譬如紅色的人想要留住 70 元

and offers blue 30. So he offers a 70-30 split with blue.

給藍色的人 30 元。這樣他提出和藍色的人以 70 對 30 分賬

Control passes to blue, and blue says, "I accept it,"

控制權傳到藍色的人手裏，藍色的人說:「我接受」

in which case he'd get the money, or blue says,

在這種情況下他會拿到錢。藍色的人或者會說

"I reject it," in which case no one gets anything. Okay?

「我拒絕這筆交易」。在這種情況下， 沒有一方獲得任何東西。明白嗎？

So a rational choice economist would say, well,

一個會作理性選擇的經濟學家會這樣說，嗯，

you should take all non-zero offers.

你應接受所有高於零的出價

What do people do? People are indifferent at an 80-20 split.

人們實際會做甚麼呢? 人們對 80-20 分賬不感興趣

At 80-20, it's a coin flip whether you accept that or not.

要決定是否接受 80-20 分賬的時候，人們大概會擲硬幣決定

Why is that? You know, because you're pissed off.

為甚麼會這樣呢? 你知道，因為你被惹惱

You're mad. That's an unfair offer, and you know what an unfair offer is.

你氣瘋了。這是不公平的出價 你知道甚麼是不公平的出價

This is the kind of game done by my lab and many around the world.

這是我的實驗室，以及世界上許多實驗室都在做的實驗

That just gives you an example of the kind of thing that

這為你展示了這些遊戲嘗試探索的事情

these games probe. The interesting thing is, these games

的其中一個例子。有趣的是，這些遊戲

require that you have a lot of cognitive apparatus on line.

需要你運用大量的認知工具

You have to be able to come to the table with a proper model of another person.

你必須能夠對另一邊的人建構一個適當模型

You have to be able to remember what you've done.

你必須能夠記住你做過甚麼

You have to stand up in the moment to do that.

你在那個時候你必須堅持才能完成任務

Then you have to update your model based on the signals coming back,

然後你要在訊號回來的時候更新你的模型

and you have to do something that is interesting,

接著你必須做一些有趣的事情

which is you have to do a kind of depth of thought assay.

你必須做一個帶有深度思考的分析

That is, you have to decide what that other person expects of you.

也就是說，你必須估計對方對你的期望

You have to send signals to manage your image in their mind.

你必須為保持你在他們心目中的形象，而發出訊號

Like a job interview. You sit across the desk from somebody,

這就像一次面試。你坐在書桌一邊、某個人的對面

they have some prior image of you,

他們對你有一些看法

you send signals across the desk to move their image

你把訊號發送到書桌的另一邊，把他們對你的看法

of you from one place to a place where you want it to be.

從一處移到另一處，一個你想要它到的地方

We're so good at this we don't really even notice it.

我們很擅長做這件事，有時候我們甚至察覺不到

These kinds of probes exploit it. Okay?

我們這類探針就是要好好利用它。好嗎?

In doing this, what we've discovered is that humans

這樣做時，我們發現人類

are literal canaries in social exchanges.

都是處於社交活動中的金絲雀

Canaries used to be used as kind of biosensors in mines.

以往金絲雀曾經被用作礦井裏的生物感應器

When methane built up, or carbon dioxide built up,

當甲烷濃度上升，或二氧化碳濃度上升

or oxygen was diminished, the birds would swoon

或氧氣減少，這些鳥兒便會在人們昏倒

before people would -- so it acted as an early warning system:

之前昏倒 -- 所以它能夠充當一個早期預警系統:

Hey, get out of the mine. Things aren't going so well.

嘿，走出礦井。大事不妙。

People come to the table, and even these very blunt,

人們來到書桌前，即使這些簡單直接的、

staged social interactions, and they, and there's just

預先安排的社交互動

numbers going back and forth between the people,

這些在人們之間來來往往的數字

and they bring enormous sensitivities to it.

已經足以觸動人們的神經

So we realized we could exploit this, and in fact,

因此我們意識到，我們可以利用它，而且實際上，

as we've done that, and we've done this now in

我們做過，我們已經對數以千計人

many thousands of people, I think on the order of

做過這樣的實驗，數字可能達

five or six thousand. We actually, to make this

五、 六千人。要是我們真的想利用它

a biological probe, need bigger numbers than that,

作為生物探針，我們實在需要更多的參與者

remarkably so. But anyway,

更多更多的參與者。不過無論如何

patterns have emerged, and we've been able to take

我們已經看到一些趨勢，我們亦已經

those patterns, convert them into mathematical models,

能夠將這些趨勢轉換為數學模型

and use those mathematical models to gain new insights

並使用這些數學模型以獲得有關

into these exchanges. Okay, so what?

這些社交互動的新見解。好吧，那又怎樣？

Well, the so what is, that's a really nice behavioral measure,

嗯，這個「那又怎樣」是，這是非常好的行為測量

the economic games bring to us notions of optimal play.

這個經濟學遊戲為我們帶來一個「最佳策略」的想法

We can compute that during the game.

我們可以在遊戲中計算

And we can use that to sort of carve up the behavior.

我們可以用這來... 嗯... 界定某一個行為

Here's the cool thing. Six or seven years ago,

這是最酷的地方。六至七年前

we developed a team. It was at the time in Houston, Texas.

我們發展出一個團隊。那個時候我們在德克薩斯州的休斯頓

It's now in Virginia and London. And we built software

現在我們在維珍尼亞及倫敦。我們研發

that'll link functional magnetic resonance imaging devices

可以透過網絡連接不同磁力共振造影機器的軟件

up over the Internet. I guess we've done up to six machines

我估計我們可以同時連接最多六台機器

at a time, but let's just focus on two.

不過現在還是聚焦在兩台好了

So it synchronizes machines anywhere in the world.

它可以讓世界上的任何兩台機器同步運作

We synchronize the machines, set them into these

我們令這些機器同步，令它們運行

staged social interactions, and we eavesdrop on both

預設的社交活動，接著我們竊聽那兩個

of the interacting brains. So for the first time,

在互動的腦袋。所以，這是第一次

we don't have to look at just averages over single individuals,

我們可以看到比每個人的平均數據更多的資料

or have individuals playing computers, or try to make

又或者令個別參與者與電腦作賽，又或者嘗試

inferences that way. We can study individual dyads.

干擾他們。我們可以研究兩人的組合

We can study the way that one person interacts with another person,

我們可以研究一個人與另一個人互動的方式

turn the numbers up, and start to gain new insights

當收集的數據愈來愈多，我們可以開始洞察出

into the boundaries of normal cognition,

正常認知的邊緣

but more importantly, we can put people with

但更重要的是，我們可以把

classically defined mental illnesses, or brain damage,

已被界定為患有精神科疾病，或者有大腦缺損的病人

into these social interactions, and use these as probes of that.

放進這樣的社交活動場景，以此作為探針

So we've started this effort. We've made a few hits,

我們已經開始努力嘗試，並已經找到一些線索

a few, I think, embryonic discoveries.

一些，我認為，很初步的發現

We think there's a future to this. But it's our way

我們認為這種研究很有前景。但這是我們

of going in and redefining, with a new lexicon,

踏進這個問題並以新的詞彙、

a mathematical one actually, as opposed to the standard

一種數學的方式、而非標準的方式重新定義精神科疾病

ways that we think about mental illness,

當我們想到精神科疾病時

characterizing these diseases, by using the people

並以雀鳥交換訊息的方法去描繪

as birds in the exchanges. That is, we exploit the fact

這些疾病的病徵。換句話說，我們利用

that the healthy partner, playing somebody with major depression,

一個正常的同伴，與患有嚴重抑鬱的病人交流

or playing somebody with autism spectrum disorder,

或者與患有自閉症的患者交流

or playing somebody with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,

又或者與患有注意力障礙及過度活躍症的患者交流

we use that as a kind of biosensor, and then we use

我們利用這種生物感應器，接著用

computer programs to model that person, and it gives us

電腦程式去建構那個人的模型，就好像

a kind of assay of this.

做化驗報告一樣

Early days, and we're just beginning, we're setting up sites

較早期的時候，當我們還在最初的階段，我們在世界不同地方

around the world. Here are a few of our collaborating sites.

建立了實驗室。這是一些與我們合作的實驗室

The hub, ironically enough,

諷刺地，那個交匯中心

is centered in little Roanoke, Virginia.

在維珍尼亞州中細小的羅阿諾克市

There's another hub in London, now, and the rest

現在，我們有另外一個交匯中心在倫敦，其他

are getting set up. We hope to give the data away

都在建構中。在其後的階段，我們希望可以把數據

at some stage. That's a complicated issue

發放出去。把數據向世界其他地方公開

about making it available to the rest of the world.

是一個複雜的問題

But we're also studying just a small part

但是我們同時在一步步研究

of what makes us interesting as human beings, and so

甚麼使我們作為有趣味的人類。因此

I would invite other people who are interested in this

我希望邀請其他同樣地對這個問題有興趣的人

to ask us for the software, or even for guidance

向我們索取這套軟體，又或者向我們提供

on how to move forward with that.

一些可以推進這些研究的方向

Let me leave you with one thought in closing.

最後，讓我跟你們分享一個想法

The interesting thing about studying cognition

研究人類認知一個有趣的地方是

has been that we've been limited, in a way.

我們在某程度上都受到一些限制

We just haven't had the tools to look at interacting brains

我們從前沒有一個能同時監察

simultaneously.

多個正在互動的大腦的裝置

The fact is, though, that even when we're alone,

然而，即使在我們獨處的時候

we're a profoundly social creature. We're not a solitary mind

我們仍然是一種極度社交性的動物。我們並不是

built out of properties that kept it alive in the world

建基於能夠生存於世上、與其他人隔絕

independent of other people. In fact, our minds

的獨立心靈。事實上，我們的心靈都

depend on other people. They depend on other people,

依靠著其他人。他們亦依靠著其他人

and they're expressed in other people,

同時亦表現在其他人的身上

so the notion of who you are, you often don't know

所以這個「你是誰」的概念，你經常不會

who you are until you see yourself in interaction with people

明白，直至你與那些跟你關係密切的人

that are close to you, people that are enemies of you,

那些你的敵人、那些你不相信的人

people that are agnostic to you.

互動中看到自己

So this is the first sort of step into using that insight

所以我們利用這個工具踏出第一步，去了解

into what makes us human beings, turning it into a tool,

甚麼使我們變成人類，並把它作為工具

and trying to gain new insights into mental illness.

使我們對精神科疾病有新的見解

Thanks for having me. (Applause)

謝謝讓我在這裡替你們演講 (掌聲)

(Applause)

(掌聲)