Where's Google going next? | Larry Page

翻译人员: Xiaoou Chen 校对人员: Tian Ye

Charlie Rose: So Larry sent me an email

查理·罗斯：拉里给我发了一封邮件，

and he basically said,

基本上他就是说，

we've got to make sure that we don't seem like we're

我们得确保我们看起来不能像

a couple of middle-aged boring men.

两个乏味的中年人。

I said, I'm flattered by that --

我回他说，你这么讲我深感荣幸--

(Laughter) —

（笑声）--

because I'm a bit older,

因为我年纪大一点，

and he has a bit more net worth than I do.

而他的净资产又比我多一点。

Larry Page: Well, thank you.

拉里·佩奇：呵呵，谢谢。

CR: So we'll have a conversation about

查理·罗斯：我们将要谈谈互联网，

the Internet, and we'll have a conversation Google,

我们还会谈谈Google，

and we'll have a conversation about search

以及搜索

and privacy,

和隐私，

and also about your philosophy

还有你思考的基本原则，

and a sense of how you've connected the dots

以及你是如何把这些点点滴滴联接起来的，

and how this journey that began

以及多年前开始的

some time ago

这个发展历程，

has such interesting prospects.

具有怎样的有趣前景。

Mainly we want to talk about the future.

我们主要来讨论一下未来。

So my first question: Where is Google

那我的第一个问题是：Google现在何处，

and where is it going?

它要前往何方？

LP: Well, this is something we think about a lot,

拉里·佩奇：好的，这个问题我们思考过很多，

and our mission we defined a long time ago

我们很早以前所定下的使命

is to organize the world's information

就是将全世界的信息组织起来

and make it universally accessible and useful.

让全世界的人们可以获得它并且从中受益。

And people always say,

人们总在说，

is that really what you guys are still doing?

你们还在做这个的事情呀？

And I always kind of think about that myself,

我自己也算是常常思考这个问题，

and I'm not quite sure.

我还不是很确定。

But actually, when I think about search,

但事实上，当我思考搜索时，

it's such a deep thing for all of us,

它对我们所有人来说是个深刻的问题，

to really understand what you want,

要真正理解你想要的是什么，

to understand the world's information,

要理解这个世界的信息，

and we're still very much in the early stages of that,

我们还处于非常早期的阶段，

which is totally crazy.

这太让人着急了。

We've been at it for 15 years already,

我们在这个领域里已有十五年，

but it's not at all done.

但是离实现它还差得很远。

CR: When it's done, how will it be?

查理·罗斯：当你们实现时，它会是什么样？

LP: Well, I guess,

拉里·佩奇：我猜，

in thinking about where we're going --

想想我们的前进方向--

you know, why is it not done? --

你知道，为什么还没有完成？--

a lot of it is just computing's kind of a mess.

很大程度是因为数据计算还是一团乱麻。

You know, your computer doesn't know where you are,

你知道，你的电脑并不知道你在哪里，

it doesn't know what you're doing,

它不知道你在做什么，

it doesn't know what you know,

它不知道你知道什么。

and a lot we've been trying to do recently

而且近来花费了我们很大精力的事情，

is just make your devices work,

仅仅是让你的设备工作起来，

make them understand your context.

让它理解你的大致意图。

Google Now, you know, knows where you are,

Google Now（一款个人助理软件）知道你人在哪里，

knows what you may need.

知道你可能需要什么。

So really having computing work and understand you

所以让计算机真正地工作起来，理解你

and understand that information,

并且理解这些信息，

we really haven't done that yet.

我们真的还没有做到那一步。

It's still very, very clunky.

它还是非常非常的不成熟。

CR: Tell me, when you look at what Google is doing,

查理·罗斯：你讲一讲，当你看着谷歌正在做的工作，

where does Deep Mind fit?

DeepMind应该处于什么位置？

LP: Yeah, so Deep Mind is a company

拉里·佩奇：DeepMind 这家公司，

we just acquired recently.

我们最近才整合进来。

It's in the U.K.

它在英国。

First, let me tell you the way we got there,

首先，我来讲一下我们当时的状况，

which was looking at search

就是我们正在关注搜索，

and really understanding,

真正地理解，

trying to understand everything,

试图理解所有一切，

and also make the computers not clunky

让电脑不那么不成熟，

and really understand you --

并且真正地理解你--

like, voice was really important.

比如，声音非常重要。

So what's the state of the art on speech recognition?

那么，语音识别技术的最高水平是怎样的？

It's not very good.

它不是很好，

It doesn't really understand you.

它并不能真正地理解你。

So we started doing machine learning research

于是我们开展了机器学习方面的研究，

to improve that.

来改进它，

That helped a lot.

结果成效很大。

And we started just looking at things like YouTube.

然后我们开始转向YouTube之类的东西。

Can we understand YouTube?

我们可以理解YouTube吗？

But we actually ran machine learning on YouTube

但是我们确实在Youtube上运行机器学习，

and it discovered cats, just by itself.

它找到了猫，完全靠自己。

Now, that's an important concept.

现在，这就是一个重要的概念。

And we realized there's really something here.

我们就意识到，其中有些深义。

If we can learn what cats are,

如果我们能学习什么是猫，

that must be really important.

那一定是非常重要的。

So I think Deep Mind,

所以我认为DeepMind，

what's really amazing about Deep Mind

它的真正神奇之处

is that it can actually --

在于它真的可以 --

they're learning things in this unsupervised way.

可以自主学习，无需人的干预。

They started with video games,

他们从视频游戏开始，

and really just, maybe I can show the video,

真的只是，也许我可以展示一下那个视频，

just playing video games,

只是玩视频游戏，

and learning how to do that automatically.

并且学习怎样自动地玩。

CR: Take a look at the video games

查理·罗斯：来看一下视频游戏，

and how machines are coming to be able

机器是如何开始有能力

to do some remarkable things.

做一些惊人的事情。

LP: The amazing thing about this

拉里·佩奇：这件事的惊人之处在于，

is this is, I mean, obviously,

我觉得很明显，

these are old games,

这些都是老游戏，

but the system just sees what you see, the pixels,

但是系统和你看到的完全一样，就是像素，

and it has the controls and it has the score,

并且它能控制，能得分，

and it's learned to play all of these games,

还有它学会了所有这些游戏，

same program.

同一个程序。

It's learned to play all of these games

它学会了所有这些游戏，

with superhuman performance.

而且表现是超人级的。

We've not been able to do things like this

在以前用电脑是做不到这样的事情的。

with computers before.

在以前用电脑是做不到这样的事情的。

And maybe I'll just narrate this one quickly.

我要简单说明一下，

This is boxing, and it figures out it can

这是拳击游戏，系统计算出它可以

sort of pin the opponent down.

将对手击败。

The computer's on the left,

左边的是电脑，

and it's just racking up points.

它就是要赢得高分。

So imagine if this kind

所以设想一下，如果这样的

of intelligence were thrown at your schedule,

智能可以应用在你的日程中，

or your information needs, or things like that.

或是用来解决你的信息需求，或是类似的事情。

We're really just at the beginning of that,

机器学习其实还只在起步阶段，

and that's what I'm really excited about.

而它让我感到无比激动。

CR: When you look at all that's taken place

查理·罗斯：当你看到DeepMind和拳击游戏

with Deep Mind and the boxing,

上所发生的这一切，

also a part of where we're going

并且人工智能

is artificial intelligence.

也是我们前进的方向之一。

Where are we, when you look at that?

你从这些能看到，我们走到哪一步了呢？

LP: Well, I think for me,

拉里·佩奇：我认为对于我来说，

this is kind of one of the most exciting things

这是我看到的最令人激动的事情之一，

I've seen in a long time.

在很长时间以来。

The guy who started this company, Demis,

创立这家公司的戴米斯

has a neuroscience and a computer science background.

拥有神经学和计算机科学的背景。

He went back to school

他重返校园攻读博士学位，

to get his Ph.D. to study the brain.

课题是研究大脑。

And so I think we're seeing a lot of exciting work

所以，我觉得我们看到了许多令人激动的成果，

going on that sort of crosses computer science

出现在神经学与计算机科学交叉的领域。

and neuroscience

出现在神经学与计算机科学交叉的领域。

in terms of really understanding

这些成果有关于真正去理解

what it takes to make something smart

要怎样才能制造出智能机器，

and do really interesting things.

然后做一些非常有趣的事情。

CR: But where's the level of it now?

查理·罗斯：我们现在处于什么阶段呢？

And how fast do you think we are moving?

你觉得我们的前进速度如何？

LP: Well, this is the state of the art right now,

拉里·佩奇：这是当前达到的最高水平，

understanding cats on YouTube

理解Youtube上的猫

and things like that,

还有类似的事情，

improving voice recognition.

改进语音识别技术。

We used a lot of machine learning

我们使用了许多机器学习

to improve things incrementally,

来逐步改进各种问题，

but I think for me, this example's really exciting,

但我个人认为，这个例子真的非常令人激动，

because it's one program

因为它只是一款程序

that can do a lot of different things.

却可以做许多不同事情。

CR: I don't know if we can do this,

查理·罗斯：我不知道这样做可不可以，

but we've got the image of the cat.

我这儿有一张猫的图片，

It would be wonderful to see this.

这张图意义非凡。

This is how machines looked at cats

这就是机器如何看着猫，

and what they came up with.

然后它们反映出来的形象。

Can we see that image?

我们可以看下那张图片吗？

LP: Yeah. CR: There it is. Can you see the cat?

拉里·佩奇：好的。 查理·罗斯：这就是了。你能看到猫吗？

Designed by machines, seen by machines.

机器设计了它，然后看到了它。

LP: That's right.

拉里·佩奇：是的。

So this is learned from just watching YouTube.

这是仅仅通过观看Youtube学到的。

And there's no training,

没有训练过，

no notion of a cat,

事先没有猫的概念，

but this concept of a cat

但是这个猫的概念挺重要的，

is something important that you would understand,

我们都知道，

and now that the machines can kind of understand.

而现在机器也有了一定理解。

Maybe just finishing

也许它已经完成了搜索这部分，

also on the search part,

也许它已经完成了搜索这部分，

it started with search, really understanding

它从搜索开始，真正理解人的意图

people's context and their information.

和他们的信息。

I did have a video

我有一个视频，

I wanted to show quickly on that

我想快速展示一下

that we actually found.

我发现了什么。

(Video) ["Soy, Kenya"]

（视频）[肯尼亚·索伊]

Zack Matere: Not long ago,

扎克·马泰尔：不久之前，

I planted a crop of potatoes.

我种了一片土豆，

Then suddenly they started dying one after the other.

然后突然不断地有土豆死掉了。

I checked out the books and they didn't tell me much.

我从书里查找，但没发现多少信息，

So, I went and I did a search.

所以我去搜索了一下。

["Zack Matere, Farmer"]

["扎克·马泰尔，农民"]

Potato diseases.

土豆　病

One of the websites told me

有一个网站告诉我

that ants could be the problem.

问题可能是蚂蚁。

It said, sprinkle wood ash over the plants.

它说，在作物上撒一些木灰。

Then after a few days the ants disappeared.

几天之后蚂蚁消失了。

I got excited about the Internet.

互联网让我非常激动。

I have this friend

我有个朋友，

who really would like to expand his business.

他很想把生意做大，

So I went with him to the cyber cafe

于是我和他一起去了网吧，

and we checked out several sites.

我们查看了一些网站。

When I met him next, he was going to put a windmill

当我再次见到他的时候，

at the local school.

他准备在当地学校建一座风车。

I felt proud because

我觉得很高兴，

something that wasn't there before

因为一个以前没有的东西，

was suddenly there.

就这样突然出现了。

I realized that not everybody

我意识到，

can be able to access

我用上的东西

what I was able to access.

却不是所有人都能用上。

I thought that I need to have an Internet

我想我要有互联网，

that my grandmother can use.

我的奶奶也可以用它。

So I thought about a notice board.

所以我想到了一个公告栏，

A simple wooden notice board.

一个简单的木头公告栏。

When I get information on my phone,

我从手机上得到信息的时候，

I'm able to post the information

我就可以把它

on the notice board.

公布在公告栏上。

So it's basically like a computer.

所以，它有点像个电脑，

I use the Internet to help people.

我用互联网来帮助别人。

I think I am searching for

我认为我是在搜索

a better life

一个更好的生活，

for me and my neighbors.

为我，也为我的邻居们。

So many people have access to information,

这样许多人都可以得到信息，

but there's no follow-up to that.

但是在这之后就没有后续了。

I think the follow-up to that is our knowledge.

我认为“后续”就是我们的知识。

When people have the knowledge,

人们有了知识，

they can find solutions

他们就可以找到方法，

without having to helped out.

而不需要找人帮忙。

Information is powerful,

信息就是力量，

but it is how we use it that will define us.

但是如何使用信息才决定了我们的未来。

(Applause)

（掌声）

LP: Now, the amazing thing about that video,

拉里·佩奇：这段视频的精彩这处在于，

actually, was we just read about it in the news,

其实是我们先在新闻里看到这件事，

and we found this gentlemen,

然后我们找到了这位先生，

and made that little clip.

制作了这段视频。

CR: When I talk to people about you,

查理·罗斯：当我和别人说起你，

they say to me, people who know you well, say,

他们是些很了解你的人，他们对我说，

Larry wants to change the world,

拉里想要改变世界，

and he believes technology can show the way.

他相信技术可以指出道路，

And that means access to the Internet.

也就是接入互联网。

It has to do with languages.

这一定和语言有关。

It also means how people can get access

这也意味着，人们要如何访问互联网，

and do things that will affect their community,

来做一些事情，会影响到他所在的群体。

and this is an example.

这就是一个例子。

LP: Yeah, that's right, and I think for me,

拉里·佩奇：是的，对我来说，

I have been focusing on access more,

我一直关注于更广泛和便利的网络联接，

if we're talking about the future.

如果我们说的是未来的话。

We recently released this Loon Project

我们最近推出了Loon Project项目，

which is using balloons to do it.

用热气球来实现接入互联网，

It sounds totally crazy.

听起来很疯狂。

We can show the video here.

我们可以在这里放一下视频。

Actually, two out of three people in the world

事实上，现在世界上有三分之二的人

don't have good Internet access now.

无法访问互联网。

We actually think this can really help people

我们认为这个项目真的可以帮助人们，

sort of cost-efficiently.

并且费用低廉。

CR: It's a balloon. LP: Yeah, get access to the Internet.

查理·罗斯：这是一个气球。 拉里·佩奇：是的，可以联网。

CR: And why does this balloon give you access

查理·罗斯：为什么通过这个气球就可以联网？

to the Internet?

查理·罗斯：为什么通过这个气球就可以联网？

Because there was some interesting things

因为你得想出一些有趣的办法，

you had to do to figure out how

因为你得想出一些有趣的办法，

to make balloons possible,

来让气球的办法成为可能，

they didn't have to be tethered.

还不用给气球插上线。

LP: Yeah, and this is a good example of innovation.

拉里·佩奇：是的，这一个关于创新的好例子。

Like, we've been thinking about this idea

在我们开始着手之前，

for five years or more

我们已经在思考这个想法了，

before we started working on it,

有五年甚至更久，

but it was just really,

但问题在于，

how do we get access points up high, cheaply?

如何才能便宜地在天上设一个接入点？

You normally have to use satellites

通常的办法得用人造卫星，

and it takes a long time to launch them.

但发射需要很长时间。

But you saw there how easy it is to launch a balloon

然后我们就看到，把一个气球放到天上，

and get it up,

是多么简单的事，

and actually again, it's the power of the Internet,

事实上，这再一次说明了互联网的力量。

I did a search on it,

我确实搜索过这件事，

and I found, 30, 40 years ago,

我发现三四十年前

someone had put up a balloon

就有人放出过一个气球，

and it had gone around the Earth multiple times.

而且这个气球绕着地球转了不少圈。

And I thought, why can't we do that today?

然后我想，为什么今天我们不可以做呢？

And that's how this project got going.

这个项目就这样开始了。

CR: But are you at the mercy of the wind?

查理·罗斯：但是你受到风的影响大吗？

LP: Yeah, but it turns out,

拉里·佩奇：是的，但实际上，

we did some weather simulations

我们做了一些气象模拟，

which probably hadn't really been done before,

很可能以前从来没人做过，

and if you control the altitude of the balloons,

如果控制气球的高度，

which you can do by pumping air into them

可以通过充气或别的方法实现，

and other ways,

可以通过充气或别的方法实现，

you can actually control roughly where they go,

就可以大致控制气球的运动，

and so I think we can build a worldwide mesh

因此，我想我们可以建造一个世界性网络，

of these balloons that can cover the whole planet.

用这些气球来覆盖全球。

CR: Before I talk about the future and transportation,

查理·罗斯：在我们谈谈未来和交通之前－－

where you've been a nerd for a while,

这两样你已经痴迷了有一段时间。

and this fascination you have with transportation

你对交通、

and automated cars and bicycles,

自动驾驶汽车和自行车相当痴迷－－

let me talk a bit about what's been the subject here

我先提一下有关爱德华·斯诺登的话题，

earlier with Edward Snowden.

稍早之前也是TED主题，

It is security and privacy.

事关安全与隐私。

You have to have been thinking about that.

这个问题你一定一直有所考虑。

LP: Yeah, absolutely.

拉里·佩奇：是的，毫无疑问。

I saw the picture of Sergey with Edward Snowden yesterday.

昨天我看到了谢尔盖和爱德华·斯诺登的照片。

Some of you may have seen it.

在座的有些人应该也看到了。

But I think, for me, I guess,

但我个人觉得，

privacy and security are a really important thing.

隐私和安全是非常重要的事情。

We think about it in terms of both things,

我们在这两方面都有所思考，

and I think you can't have privacy without security,

我认为没有安全就不存在隐私，

so let me just talk about security first,

所以我先谈谈安全，

because you asked about Snowden and all of that,

因为你问到了有关斯诺登的事情，

and then I'll say a little bit about privacy.

然后我会再讲一点隐私。

I think for me, it's tremendously disappointing

我个人感到极度失望，

that the government

就是政府偷偷地做了所有这些事，

secretly did all this stuff and didn't tell us.

而且没有告诉我们。

I don't think we can have a democracy

我认为这样背离了民主，

if we're having to protect you and our users

如果有些事大家还从未讨论过，

from the government

而我们不得不防止政府

for stuff that we've never had a conversation about.

来侵犯你和我们的用户的这些事情，

And I don't mean we have to know

我倒不是说我们必须知道

what the particular terrorist attack is they're worried

政府所担心的具体的恐怖袭击是什么，

about protecting us from,

政府所担心的具体的恐怖袭击是什么，

but we do need to know

而是我们需要知道

what the parameters of it is,

事情应当符合什么条件，

what kind of surveillance the government's

政府要进行何种监控，

going to do and how and why,

打算怎么做，为什么这样做，

and I think we haven't had that conversation.

我认为我们并没有讨论过这些问题。

So I think the government's actually done

所以我认为政府偷偷地做了所有这些事情，

itself a tremendous disservice

实际上造成了严重的伤害。

by doing all that in secret.

实际上造成了严重的伤害。

CR: Never coming to Google

查理·罗斯：绝不要找Google

to ask for anything.

要任何东西。

LP: Not Google, but the public.

拉里·佩奇：不是Google，而是公众。

I think we need to have a debate about that,

我认为我们需要讨论一下这个问题，

or we can't have a functioning democracy.

否则我们的民主就名不副实。

It's just not possible.

这不可能称为民主。

So I'm sad that Google's

所以Google处在了这样一个位置上，

in the position of protecting you and our users

要防止政府偷偷做这些我们根本不知道的事情，

from the government

防止它侵犯你和我们的用户，

doing secret thing that nobody knows about.

这让我觉得荒唐，

It doesn't make any sense.

这毫无道理。

CR: Yeah. And then there's a privacy side of it.

查理·罗斯：没错，然后还有隐私方面的问题。

LP: Yes. The privacy side,

拉里·佩奇：是的，还有隐私一面，

I think it's -- the world is changing.

我认为，世界正在变化。

You carry a phone. It knows where you are.

你带个手机，它知道你在哪里。

There's so much more information about you,

还有许多你的个人信息，

and that's an important thing,

这是件非常重要的事情，

and it makes sense why people are asking

人们因此而提出难以回答的问题，

difficult questions.

是合情合理的。

We spend a lot of time thinking about this

我们花了很多时间去思考这一点，

and what the issues are.

以及问题所在。

I'm a little bit --

我有一点--

I think the main thing that we need to do

我认为我们需要做的事情里最主要的一点，

is just provide people choice,

就是让人们可以选择，

show them what data's being collected --

告诉他们什么数据会被收集--

search history, location data.

搜索记录，位置信息。

We're excited about incognito mode in Chrome,

我们对于Chrome浏览器的匿名模式感到很兴奋，

and doing that in more ways,

将它应用到更多的方面，

just giving people more choice

也就是给予人们更多选择，

and more awareness of what's going on.

让他们更好地认识到发生了什么事。

I also think it's very easy.

我也认为这非常简单。

What I'm worried is that we throw out

我所担心的是，

the baby with the bathwater.

我们把孩子和洗澡水一起倒掉了。

And I look at, on your show, actually,

我看到，在你的节目上，

I kind of lost my voice,

我嗓子有点哑了，

and I haven't gotten it back.

我还没有恢复。

I'm hoping that by talking to you

我希望和你聊聊

I'm going to get it back.

能恢复得快一点。

CR: If I could do anything, I would do that.

查理·罗斯：如果我能帮上什么忙，我一定会帮。

LP: All right. So get out your voodoo doll

拉里·佩奇：那好，拿出你的劈邪宝剑，

and whatever you need to do.

该怎么做你就尽管做。

But I think, you know what, I look at that,

但是我认为，我看着这件事，

I made that public,

我把它公开化了，

and I got all this information.

我得到了所有这些信息。

We got a survey done on medical conditions

我做过一个关于身体状况的调查，

with people who have similar issues,

调查对象都有些类似的问题。

and I look at medical records, and I say,

我一边看着医疗记录，一边说，

wouldn't it be amazing

如果每个人的医疗记录

if everyone's medical records were available

都可以匿名地提供给

anonymously

做研究的医生，

to research doctors?

那岂不是很好？

And when someone accesses your medical record,

当有人查看你的医疗记录时，

a research doctor,

一个做研究的医生，

they could see, you could see which doctor

他们可以看到，你也可以看到

accessed it and why,

是哪一位医生看了，和为什么要看，

and you could maybe learn about

然后你也许可以了解到

what conditions you have.

你的状况如何。

I think if we just did that,

我认为如果我们做到这一点，

we'd save 100,000 lives this year.

这一年里就可以拯救十万人的生命。

CR: Absolutely. Let me go — (Applause)

查理·罗斯：毫无疑问。我想要--（掌声）

LP: So I guess I'm just very worried that

拉里·佩奇：所以我想我就是非常担心

with Internet privacy,

这件事与互联网隐私的问题。

we're doing the same thing we're doing with medical records,

我们现在面对的问题和面对医疗记录时一样，

is we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater,

就是我们把孩子和洗澡水一起倒掉了，

and we're not really thinking

我们没有真正地思考过

about the tremendous good that can come

信息共享带来的巨大益处，

from people sharing information

人们分享信息，

with the right people in the right ways.

要与正确的人分享，并且用正确的方式。

CR: And the necessary condition

查理·罗斯：还有一个必要条件，

that people have to have confidence

就是人们得有信心，

that their information will not be abused.

相信他们的信息不会被滥用。

LP: Yeah, and I had this problem with my voice stuff.

拉里·佩奇：是的，我在我的声音上有同样的问题，

I was scared to share it.

我害怕分享出来。

Sergey encouraged me to do that,

谢尔盖鼓励我这么做，

and it was a great thing to do.

这件事非常值得一做。

CR: And the response has been overwhelming.

查理·罗斯：而且大家的反应出奇地好。

LP: Yeah, and people are super positive.

拉里·佩奇；是的，而且人们的反应极为正面。

We got thousands and thousands of people

我们调查了成千上万的人，

with similar conditions,

都有类似的状况，

which there's no data on today.

而这些数据至今都是没有的。

So it was a really good thing.

所以这是一件非常好的事情。

CR: So talking about the future, what is it about you

查理·罗斯：说到未来，你怎么看？

and transportation systems?

还有交通问题？

LP: Yeah. I guess I was just frustrated

拉里·佩奇：我在密歇根州读大学的时候，

with this when I was at college in Michigan.

我是感到非常沮丧的。

I had to get on the bus and take it

我必须坐公共汽车，

and wait for it.

还要等它。

And it was cold and snowing.

当时很冷，又在下雪。

I did some research on how much it cost,

我就做了一点研究，公共交通的成本问题，

and I just became a bit obsessed with transportation systems.

然后我就有点迷上了交通系统。

CR: And that began the idea of an automated car.

查理·罗斯：于是就有了自动驾驶汽车的想法。

LP: Yeah, about 18 years ago I learned about

拉里·佩奇：是的，大约18年前我了解到

people working on automated cars,

有人在研究自动驾驶，

and I became fascinated by that,

我被深深地吸引住了，

and it takes a while to get these projects going,

让这些项目有所进展得花点时间，

but I'm super excited about the possibilities of that

但是想到有可能让世界变得更好，

improving the world.

我感到无比激动。

There's 20 million people or more injured per year.

每年有超过两千万人受伤。

It's the leading cause of death

这是美国34岁以下人群

for people under 34 in the U.S.

死亡的主要原因。

CR: So you're talking about saving lives.

查理·罗斯：所以这么说就是拯救生命了。

LP: Yeah, and also saving space

拉里·佩奇：是的，也是节省空间

and making life better.

和让生活更美好。

Los Angeles is half parking lots and roads,

在洛杉矶一半的土地都是停车场和道路，

half of the area,

一半的土地，

and most cities are not far behind, actually.

而且大部分城市其实也差不多了。

It's just crazy

这实在是太疯狂了，

that that's what we use our space for.

我们把空间就用来作这个用途。

CR: And how soon will we be there?

查理·罗斯：我们什么时候可以实现？

LP: I think we can be there very, very soon.

拉里·佩奇：我想非常、非常快就可以实现了。

We've driven well over 100,000 miles

我们已经良好运行了十万英里（16万公里），

now totally automated.

现在完全是自动行驶。

I'm super excited about getting that out quickly.

能够这么快地实现它，让我无比激动。

CR: But it's not only you're talking about automated cars.

查理·罗斯：但你考虑的不只是自动驾驶汽车，

You also have this idea for bicycles.

你对自行车也有这样的想法。

LP: Well at Google, we got this idea

拉里·佩奇：在Google，我们有一个想法，

that we should just provide free bikes to everyone,

我们应该向每一个人提供免费自行车，

and that's been amazing, most of the trips.

这非常棒，对大多数旅行都是。

You see bikes going everywhere,

你看，自行车哪里都可以去，

and the bikes wear out.

而自行车会磨损，

They're getting used 24 hours a day.

它一天24小时都在使用。

CR: But you want to put them above the street, too.

查理·罗斯：但你也想把自行车放到街道上。

LP: Well I said, how do we get people

拉里·佩奇：我就说，

using bikes more?

怎样才可以让人们更多地使用自行车呢？

CR: We may have a video here.

查理·罗斯：我们这儿有一段视频。

LP: Yeah, let's show the video.

拉里·佩奇：好，我们来放一下视频，

I just got excited about this.

这个让我非常激动。

(Music)

（音乐）

So this is actually how you might separate

其实这就是把自行车与汽车分离开来的方法，

bikes from cars with minimal cost.

而且代价最小。

Anyway, it looks totally crazy,

当然了，看起来很疯狂，

but I was actually thinking about our campus,

但实际上我考虑的是我们的校园，

working with the Zippies and stuff,

和许多城市等等一起合作，

and just trying to get a lot more bike usage,

就是想大大提高自行车使用率，

and I was thinking about,

我还在想，

how do you cost-effectively separate

我们怎样才能有效并且廉价地

the bikes from traffic?

把自行车从车流中分离开来？

And I went and searched,

我做了研究，

and this is what I found.

这就是我所得到的。

And we're not actually working on this,

我们其实没有研究这个，

that particular thing,

我是说这个具体方案，

but it gets your imagination going.

但它扩展了想象力。

CR: Let me close with this.

查理·罗斯：我们把这个话题先告一段落，

Give me a sense of the philosophy of your own mind.

描述一下你的想法有着怎样的基本原则。

You have this idea of [Google X].

你有了Google X这个想法，

You don't simply want

你想要的不只是一些

to go in some small, measurable arena of progress.

小的，规模有限的舞台。

LP: Yeah, I think

拉里·佩奇：是的，我认为

many of the things we just talked about are like that,

我们刚讨论过的许多事情就是这样，

where they're really --

它们真是--

I almost use the economic concept of additionality,

我差点要用经济学概念上的额外性了，

which means that you're doing something

就是说，你要做的事情本来并不会发生，

that wouldn't happen unless you were actually doing it.

除非你是真的在做它。

And I think the more you can do things like that,

我认为这样的事情你做得越多，

the bigger impact you have,

你获得的影响就越大，

and that's about doing things

人们也许认为不可能的事情

that people might not think are possible.

就应当这样做。

And I've been amazed,

我惊讶地发现，

the more I learn about technology,

我懂得的技术越多，

the more I realize I don't know,

就越意识到自己的不足。

and that's because this technological horizon,

这是因为技术的眼界提高了，

the thing that you can see to do next,

也就是你预见下一步应当怎么做的能力。

the more you learn about technology,

你懂得的技术越多，

the more you learn what's possible.

你就越知道什么是可能的。

You learn that the balloons are possible

你现在知道气球项目是可能的，

because there's some material that will work for them.

因为有了一些材料让它可以运作起来。

CR: What's interesting about you too, though, for me,

查理·罗斯：不过在我看来，你的有趣之处在于，

is that, we have lots of people

有很多的人在思考未来，

who are thinking about the future,

有很多的人在思考未来，

and they are going and looking and they're coming back,

他们去了看了看，又回来了，

but we never see the implementation.

而我们从来没有看到最终实现。

I think of somebody you knew

我想到了一个人，你一定知道，

and read about, Tesla.

特斯拉。

The principle of that for you is what?

你在这方面的原则是怎样的？

LP: Well, I think invention is not enough.

拉里·佩奇：我认为仅仅有发明是不够的。

If you invent something,

如果你发明一样东西，

Tesla invented electric power that we use,

特斯拉发明了电力系统，我们现在用的就是，

but he struggled to get it out to people.

但是他推广起来就非常困难，

That had to be done by other people.

普及是由别人实现的，

It took a long time.

花费了很长时间。

And I think if we can actually combine both things,

我认为，如果我们能将二者真正结合起来，

where we have an innovation and invention focus,

同时着眼于创新与发明，

plus the ability to really -- a company

再加上一家公司，

that can really commercialize things

可以使成果真正商业化，

and get them to people

让人们接触到它，

in a way that's positive for the world

让它对世界有积极地影响，

and to give people hope.

并给人们带来希望。

You know, I'm amazed with the Loon Project

你知道，大家对气球项目的关注程度

just how excited people were about that,

让我很是吃惊，

because it gave them hope

因为它带来了希望，

for the two thirds of the world

对于世界上现在还不能上网的三分之二来说，

that doesn't have Internet right now that's any good.

这怎样都是好事。

CR: Which is a second thing about corporations.

查理·罗斯：这就是关于公司的第二件事。

You are one of those people who believe

有些人，包括你，认为，

that corporations are an agent of change

公司可以成为带来改变的媒介，

if they are run well.

如果它能运营良好的话。

LP: Yeah. I'm really dismayed

拉里·佩奇：是的，大部分人认为公司基本上都是邪恶的，

most people think companies are basically evil.

这让我很是沮丧，

They get a bad rap.

这么说并不公正，

And I think that's somewhat correct.

但我认为在某程度上又是正确的。

Companies are doing the same incremental thing

公司做的事情就是渐进发展，

that they did 50 years ago

五十年前的公司就这样做，

or 20 years ago.

或者说二十年前，

That's not really what we need.

这也并非是我们真正需要的。

We need, especially in technology,

我们需要的是，特别是在技术上，

we need revolutionary change,

是革命性改变，

not incremental change.

而不是渐进式改变。

CR: You once said, actually,

查理·罗斯：你曾说过，

as I think I've got this about right,

我希望我的理解是对的，

that you might consider,

就是，你可能考虑，

rather than giving your money,

相比于直接捐出你的钱，

if you were leaving it to some cause,

你更愿意用于某些事业，

just simply giving it to Elon Musk,

只管给伊隆·马斯克就好了，

because you had confidence

因为你相信

that he would change the future,

他会改变未来，

and that you would therefore —

因此你就会--

LP: Yeah, if you want to go Mars,

拉里·佩奇：是的，如果你想去火星，

he wants to go to Mars,

他想去火星，

to back up humanity,

来为人类探索后备方案，

that's a worthy goal, but it's a company,

这个目标很有价值，但这是一个公司，

and it's philanthropical.

这是慈善事业。

So I think we aim to do kind of similar things.

所以我觉得我们的目标是做些类似的事情。

And I think, you ask, we have a lot of employees

你问过，我们在Google有许多员工，

at Google who have become pretty wealthy.

他们非常富有，

People make a lot of money in technology.

通过技术赚了很多钱，

A lot of people in the room are pretty wealthy.

很多人都非常富有。

You're working because you want to change the world.

你工作的目的是想要改变世界，

You want to make it better.

你想让世界变得更好。

Why isn't the company that you work for

你既然为这家公司工作，

worthy not just of your time

为什么不值得为它投入你的时间，

but your money as well?

还有你的金钱呢？

I mean, but we don't have a concept of that.

我的意思是，我们并不这样认为，

That's not how we think about companies,

我们也不是这样看待公司的。

and I think it's sad,

我也觉得很伤感，

because companies are most of our effort.

因为我们所付出的努力绝大部分都花在了公司上。

They're where most of people's time is,

人们在这里付出了最多的时间，

where a lot of the money is,

也花费了许多金钱，

and so I think I'd like for us to help out

所以我想我要帮助大家，

more than we are.

而不是只顾自己。

CR: When I close conversations with lots of people,

查理·罗斯：我跟许多人的谈话结束时，

I always ask this question:

我总是问这样的一个问题：

What state of mind,

什么样的心理状态，

what quality of mind is it

什么样的精神品质，

that has served you best?

让你最为受益‘？

People like Rupert Murdoch have said curiosity,

像鲁珀特·默多克这样的人说是好奇心，

and other people in the media have said that.

别的媒体人士也这样说。

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have said focus.

比尔·盖茨和沃伦·巴菲特说是专注，

What quality of mind,

在我与观众说再见之际，

as I leave this audience,

什么样的精神品质

has enabled you to think about the future

使得你能够思考未来，

and at the same time

而且与此同时，

change the present?

改变现在？

LP: You know, I think the most important thing --

拉里·佩奇：我认为最重要的事情，

I looked at lots of companies

我见过很多公司，

and why I thought they don't succeed over time.

为什么我认为它们没能经受时间的考验。

We've had a more rapid turnover of companies.

如今公司的人员流动更快，

And I said, what did they fundamentally do wrong?

我问，他们出错的根源是什么？

What did those companies all do wrong?

这些公司都错在了哪里？

And usually it's just that they missed the future.

通常仅仅是因为他们错失了未来。

And so I think, for me,

所以在我看来，

I just try to focus on that and say,

我就是专注于这一点，并且在想，

what is that future really going to be

未来将真正走向何方，

and how do we create it,

我们要如何创造未来，

and how do we cause our organization,

我们怎样才能让我们的组织

to really focus on that

真正专注于它，

and drive that at a really high rate?

并且很快地行动呢？

And so that's been curiosity,

所以那就是好奇心，

it's been looking at things

去寻找人们

people might not think about,

可能没有想过的东西，

working on things that no one else is working on,

研究别人所没有研究过的东西，

because that's where the additionality really is,

因为那才是真正的额外性，

and be willing to do that,

同时乐于去做，

to take that risk.

乐于承担风险。

Look at Android.

看看安卓，

I felt guilty about working on Android

为安卓而工作曾让我感到内疚，

when it was starting.

在它刚起步时，

It was a little startup we bought.

我们收购它时，它只是很小的一步。

It wasn't really what we were really working on.

它当时也不是我们真正努力的方向。

And I felt guilty about spending time on that.

为它花时间让我感到内疚，

That was stupid.

那真是非常愚蠢。

That was the future, right?

那其实就是未来，对吧？

That was a good thing to be working on.

那是个很棒的东西，值得为之努力。

CR: It is great to see you here.

查理·罗斯：很高兴在这里见到你，

It's great to hear from you,

很高兴听到你的讲述，

and a pleasure to sit at this table with you.

和你一起坐在这里也是我的荣幸。

Thanks, Larry.

谢谢拉里。

LP: Thank you.

拉里·佩奇：谢谢你。

(Applause)

（掌声）

CR: Larry Page.

查理·罗斯：拉里·佩奇。