Where's Google going next? | Larry Page

譯者: Kuan-Yi Li 審譯者: Ana Choi

Charlie Rose: So Larry sent me an email

查理．羅斯：賴瑞發了封信給我，

and he basically said,

基本上他就是說，

we've got to make sure that we don't seem like we're

我們得確保我們看起來不能像

a couple of middle-aged boring men.

兩個乏味的中年人。

I said, I'm flattered by that --

我回他說，你這麼講我深感榮幸──

(Laughter) —

（笑聲）──

because I'm a bit older,

因為我年紀大一點，

and he has a bit more net worth than I do.

而他的淨資產又比我多一點。

Larry Page: Well, thank you.

賴瑞．佩吉：呵，謝謝。

CR: So we'll have a conversation about

查理．羅斯：我們會聊聊網際網路，

the Internet, and we'll have a conversation Google,

還會聊聊 Google，

and we'll have a conversation about search

聊聊搜尋，

and privacy,

和隱私，

and also about your philosophy

還有你的處世哲學，

and a sense of how you've connected the dots

以及你如何把這 一切聯接起來的，

and how this journey that began

以及多年前開始的

some time ago

這個旅程，

has such interesting prospects.

具有怎樣的有趣前景。

Mainly we want to talk about the future.

我們主要來討論一下未來。

So my first question: Where is Google

那我的第一個問題是：Google 身在何處，

and where is it going?

它將前往何方？

LP: Well, this is something we think about a lot,

賴瑞．佩吉： 好的，這個問題我們思考過很多，

and our mission we defined a long time ago

我們很早以前所定下的目標

is to organize the world's information

就是將全世界的資訊組織起來

and make it universally accessible and useful.

讓全世界的人們可以 獲得它並且從中受益。

And people always say,

人們總會問，

is that really what you guys are still doing?

你們還在做這樣的事情嗎？

And I always kind of think about that myself,

我自己也常思考這問題，

and I'm not quite sure.

我還不是很確定。

But actually, when I think about search,

但事實上，說到搜尋，

it's such a deep thing for all of us,

對所有人來說都 是個深奧的問題，

to really understand what you want,

要真正理解你想要的是什麼，

to understand the world's information,

要理解這個世界的資訊，

and we're still very much in the early stages of that,

我們還處於非常早期的階段，

which is totally crazy.

這真的很誇張。

We've been at it for 15 years already,

我們在這個領域裡已有十五年，

but it's not at all done.

卻離實現它還差得很遠。

CR: When it's done, how will it be?

查理．羅斯： 當實現時，它會是什麼樣？

LP: Well, I guess,

賴瑞．佩吉：我猜，

in thinking about where we're going --

想想我們的前進方向──

you know, why is it not done? --

像是，為什麼還沒有完成？──

a lot of it is just computing's kind of a mess.

大部分原因是 數據計算還是一團亂。

You know, your computer doesn't know where you are,

電腦不知道你在哪、

it doesn't know what you're doing,

不知道你在做什麼，

it doesn't know what you know,

也不知道你懂什麼。

and a lot we've been trying to do recently

近年來我們花了很多的精力，

is just make your devices work,

只為了讓你的設備運作起來，

make them understand your context.

讓它理解你的大致意圖。

Google Now, you know, knows where you are,

Google Now 知道你人在哪，

knows what you may need.

知道你可能需要什麼。

So really having computing work and understand you

所以讓電腦真正地 運作起來、理解你

and understand that information,

並且理解這些資訊，

we really haven't done that yet.

我們還沒真的做到那步。

It's still very, very clunky.

它仍非常地不成熟。

CR: Tell me, when you look at what Google is doing,

查理．羅斯： 對於 Google 正在做的事，

where does Deep Mind fit?

DeepMind 扮演什麼角色？

LP: Yeah, so Deep Mind is a company

賴瑞．佩吉：DeepMind 這家公司，

we just acquired recently.

我們最近才併購進來。

It's in the U.K.

它在英國。

First, let me tell you the way we got there,

首先，我講一下我們當時的狀況，

which was looking at search

當時我們焦點放在搜尋，

and really understanding,

並真正地理解，

trying to understand everything,

試圖理解一切，

and also make the computers not clunky

讓電腦不那麼遲鈍，

and really understand you --

並且真正地理解你──

like, voice was really important.

比如，語音非常重要。

So what's the state of the art on speech recognition?

最先進的語音辨識技術是怎樣的？

It's not very good.

它不是很好，

It doesn't really understand you.

它並不能真正地理解你。

So we started doing machine learning research

於是我們研究機器學習，

to improve that.

以改進它，

That helped a lot.

結果成效很大。

And we started just looking at things like YouTube.

然後我們開始轉向 YouTube 之類的東西。

Can we understand YouTube?

我們可以理解 YouTube 嗎？

But we actually ran machine learning on YouTube

我們實際在 YouTube 上 進行機器學習，

and it discovered cats, just by itself.

它找到了貓，完全靠自己。

Now, that's an important concept.

這是個重要的概念。

And we realized there's really something here.

我們意識到，其中有著深義。

If we can learn what cats are,

如果我們能學習貓是什麼，

that must be really important.

那一定是非常重要的。

So I think Deep Mind,

所以我認為 DeepMind，

what's really amazing about Deep Mind

它的真正神奇之處

is that it can actually --

在於它真的可以

they're learning things in this unsupervised way.

自主學習，無需人的干預。

They started with video games,

他們從遊戲開始，

and really just, maybe I can show the video,

真的只是 ──也許我可以播一下那影片──

just playing video games,

只是玩遊戲，

and learning how to do that automatically.

並且學習怎樣自動地玩。

CR: Take a look at the video games

查理．羅斯：看一下這遊戲，

and how machines are coming to be able

機器是如何開始有能力

to do some remarkable things.

做一些驚人的事情。

LP: The amazing thing about this

賴瑞．佩吉：這驚人之處在於，

is this is, I mean, obviously,

我覺得很明顯，

these are old games,

這些都是老遊戲，

but the system just sees what you see, the pixels,

但是系統和你看到的 完全一樣，就是像素，

and it has the controls and it has the score,

並且它能控制、能得分，

and it's learned to play all of these games,

還有它學會了所有這些遊戲，

same program.

同一個程式。

It's learned to play all of these games

它學會了所有這些遊戲，

with superhuman performance.

而且表現是超人級的。

We've not been able to do things like this

在過去，電腦是做不到這些事的。

with computers before.

And maybe I'll just narrate this one quickly.

我要簡單說明一下，

This is boxing, and it figures out it can

這是拳擊遊戲，系統算出

sort of pin the opponent down.

如何制伏對手。

The computer's on the left,

左邊的是電腦，

and it's just racking up points.

它就是要贏得高分。

So imagine if this kind

所以設想一下，如果這樣的

of intelligence were thrown at your schedule,

人工智慧能用在你的排程、

or your information needs, or things like that.

解決你的訊息需求， 或類似的事情。

We're really just at the beginning of that,

機器學習其實還在起步階段，

and that's what I'm really excited about.

而這讓我感到無比興奮。

CR: When you look at all that's taken place

查理．羅斯： 當你看到 DeepMind 和拳擊遊戲

with Deep Mind and the boxing,

上所發生的這一切，

also a part of where we're going

加上人工智慧

is artificial intelligence.

也是我們前進的方向之一。

Where are we, when you look at that?

從這些來看，我們走到哪步了？

LP: Well, I think for me,

賴瑞．佩吉：我認為對於我來說，

this is kind of one of the most exciting things

這是我看到的 最令人興奮的事情之一，

I've seen in a long time.

在很長時間以來。

The guy who started this company, Demis,

創立這家公司的德米斯

has a neuroscience and a computer science background.

擁有神經學和電腦科學的背景。

He went back to school

他回學校攻讀博士，

to get his Ph.D. to study the brain.

課題是研究大腦。

And so I think we're seeing a lot of exciting work

我們看到許多激勵人心的成果，

going on that sort of crosses computer science

出現在跨神經學與 電腦科學的領域。

and neuroscience

in terms of really understanding

關於如何真正去理解，

what it takes to make something smart

去打造出有智慧的機器，

and do really interesting things.

來做一些有趣的事。

CR: But where's the level of it now?

查理．羅斯： 我們現在處於什麼階段呢？

And how fast do you think we are moving?

你覺得我們的進展速度如何？

LP: Well, this is the state of the art right now,

賴瑞．佩吉： 這是當前達到的最高水準，

understanding cats on YouTube

理解 YouTube 上的貓

and things like that,

還有類似的事情，

improving voice recognition.

加強語音辨識技術。

We used a lot of machine learning

我們使用了許多機器學習

to improve things incrementally,

來逐步改進各種問題，

but I think for me, this example's really exciting,

我個人認為這例子非常令人興奮，

because it's one program

因為它只是一個程式

that can do a lot of different things.

卻可以做許多不同事情。

CR: I don't know if we can do this,

查理．羅斯： 我不知道這樣做合不合適，

but we've got the image of the cat.

我這兒有一張貓的圖片，

It would be wonderful to see this.

這張圖意義非凡。

This is how machines looked at cats

這就是機器看貓，

and what they came up with.

反映出的形象。

Can we see that image?

可以看一下圖片嗎？

LP: Yeah. CR: There it is. Can you see the cat?

賴瑞．佩吉：好的。 查理．羅斯：這就是了。你能看到貓嗎？

Designed by machines, seen by machines.

機器自己設計、看到了它。

LP: That's right.

賴瑞．佩吉：是的。

So this is learned from just watching YouTube.

這是僅僅透過觀看 YouTube 學到的。

And there's no training,

沒有事先訓練過，

no notion of a cat,

沒有貓的概念，

but this concept of a cat

但這個貓的概念挺重要的，

is something important that you would understand,

我們都知道什麼是貓，

and now that the machines can kind of understand.

而現在機器也有了一定理解。

Maybe just finishing

也許它已經完成了搜尋這部分，

also on the search part,

it started with search, really understanding

它從搜尋開始，去理解人的意圖

people's context and their information.

和他們的資訊。

I did have a video

我有一個影片，

I wanted to show quickly on that

我想快速展示一下

that we actually found.

我發現了什麼。

(Video) ["Soy, Kenya"]

（影片） 「肯亞，索伊」

Zack Matere: Not long ago,

查克．馬泰爾：不久之前，

I planted a crop of potatoes.

我種了一片馬鈴薯，

Then suddenly they started dying one after the other.

然後突然地， 不斷有馬鈴薯死掉。

I checked out the books and they didn't tell me much.

我查了書，但沒發現多少資訊，

So, I went and I did a search.

所以我去搜尋了一下。

["Zack Matere, Farmer"]

「查克．馬泰爾，農民」

Potato diseases.

馬鈴薯、疾病。

One of the websites told me

有一個網站告訴我

that ants could be the problem.

問題可能是螞蟻。

It said, sprinkle wood ash over the plants.

它說，在作物上撒一些木灰。

Then after a few days the ants disappeared.

幾天之後螞蟻消失了。

I got excited about the Internet.

網路讓我非常興奮。

I have this friend

我有個朋友，

who really would like to expand his business.

他很想擴展生意，

So I went with him to the cyber cafe

於是我和他一起去了網咖，

and we checked out several sites.

我們查了一些網站。

When I met him next, he was going to put a windmill

再次見到他時，

他準備在當地學校建一座風車。

at the local school.

I felt proud because

我感到很驕傲，

something that wasn't there before

因為一個以前沒有的東西，

was suddenly there.

就這樣突然出現了。

I realized that not everybody

我意識到，

並不是所有人都能夠用

can be able to access

what I was able to access.

我能用的東西。

I thought that I need to have an Internet

我想我需要有種網路，

that my grandmother can use.

讓我奶奶也會用它。

So I thought about a notice board.

所以我想到了一個公告欄，

A simple wooden notice board.

一個簡單的木製公告欄。

When I get information on my phone,

我從手機上得到資訊的時候，

I'm able to post the information

我就可以把它

on the notice board.

公布在公告欄上。

So it's basically like a computer.

所以，它有點像部電腦，

I use the Internet to help people.

我用網際網路來幫助別人。

I think I am searching for

我認為我是在尋找

a better life

一個更好的生活，

for me and my neighbors.

為我，也為我的鄰居們。

So many people have access to information,

這樣許多人都可以得到資訊，

but there's no follow-up to that.

但是在這之後就沒有後續了。

I think the follow-up to that is our knowledge.

我認為「後續」就是我們的知識。

When people have the knowledge,

人們有了知識，

they can find solutions

他們就能找到方法，

without having to helped out.

而不需要找人幫忙。

Information is powerful,

資訊的力量很強大，

but it is how we use it that will define us.

但是如何使用資訊 才決定我們的未來。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

LP: Now, the amazing thing about that video,

賴瑞．佩吉： 這段影片的精彩之處在於，

actually, was we just read about it in the news,

我們是先從新聞看到，

and we found this gentlemen,

我們才找這位先生，

and made that little clip.

錄了這段影片。

CR: When I talk to people about you,

查理．羅斯：當我和別人說起你，

they say to me, people who know you well, say,

這些很了解你的人，他們對我說，

Larry wants to change the world,

賴瑞想要改變世界，

and he believes technology can show the way.

他相信科技可以指引方向，

And that means access to the Internet.

而這需要有網路。

It has to do with languages.

這也和語言有關。

It also means how people can get access

這也意味著， 人們要如何存取網路

and do things that will affect their community,

來做一些事情， 會影響到他所在的群體。

and this is an example.

這就是一個例子。

LP: Yeah, that's right, and I think for me,

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，對我來說，

I have been focusing on access more,

我致力於更易用的網路，

if we're talking about the future.

如果我們說的是未來的話。

We recently released this Loon Project

我們最近推出了 Loon 專案，

which is using balloons to do it.

用熱氣球來存取網路，

It sounds totally crazy.

聽起來很瘋狂。

We can show the video here.

我們可以在這裡播一下影片。

Actually, two out of three people in the world

世界上三分之二的人

don't have good Internet access now.

沒好的網路可用。

We actually think this can really help people

我們認為這個專案可以幫助人們，

sort of cost-efficiently.

並且費用低廉。

CR: It's a balloon. LP: Yeah, get access to the Internet.

查理．羅斯：這是一個氣球。 賴瑞．佩吉：是的，可以連網。

CR: And why does this balloon give you access

查理．羅斯：為什麼可以透過這氣球連網？

to the Internet?

Because there was some interesting things

因為你得想出一些有趣的辦法，

you had to do to figure out how

to make balloons possible,

來讓氣球連網成為可能，

they didn't have to be tethered.

還不用給氣球插上線。

LP: Yeah, and this is a good example of innovation.

賴瑞．佩吉： 是的，這是個關於創新的好例子。

Like, we've been thinking about this idea

在我們在著手之前

for five years or more

就已經在思考這想法了，

before we started working on it,

有五年甚至更久，

but it was just really,

但問題在於，

how do we get access points up high, cheaply?

如何才能便宜地 在天上設一個存取點？

You normally have to use satellites

傳統得用人造衛星，

and it takes a long time to launch them.

但發射需要很長時間。

But you saw there how easy it is to launch a balloon

然後我們就想到，放個氣球到天上，

and get it up,

是多麼簡單的事，

and actually again, it's the power of the Internet,

這再次說明網路的力量。

I did a search on it,

我確實搜尋過這件事，

and I found, 30, 40 years ago,

我發現三四十年前

someone had put up a balloon

就有人放出過一個氣球，

and it had gone around the Earth multiple times.

而這個氣球繞著地球轉了不少圈。

And I thought, why can't we do that today?

然後我想，我們如今 為何不這麼做呢？

And that's how this project got going.

這個專案就這樣開始了。

CR: But are you at the mercy of the wind?

查理．羅斯： 但是你受風的影響大嗎？

LP: Yeah, but it turns out,

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，但實際上，

we did some weather simulations

我們做了些氣象模擬，

which probably hadn't really been done before,

很可能以前從來沒人做過，

and if you control the altitude of the balloons,

如果控制氣球的高度，

which you can do by pumping air into them

可以通過充氣或別的方法實現，

and other ways,

you can actually control roughly where they go,

就可以大致控制氣球的動向，

and so I think we can build a worldwide mesh

因此，我想我們可以 建造一個世界性網路，

of these balloons that can cover the whole planet.

用這些氣球來覆蓋全球。

CR: Before I talk about the future and transportation,

查理．羅斯： 在我們聊未來和運輸之前

where you've been a nerd for a while,

──這兩樣你已浸淫了一段時間。

and this fascination you have with transportation

你對運輸、自動駕駛汽車和 自行車研究很深──

and automated cars and bicycles,

let me talk a bit about what's been the subject here

我先提一下有關 愛德華．史諾登的話題，

earlier with Edward Snowden.

稍早前也是 TED 主題，

It is security and privacy.

事關安全與隱私。

You have to have been thinking about that.

你一定一直有在思考這問題。

LP: Yeah, absolutely.

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，毫無疑問。

I saw the picture of Sergey with Edward Snowden yesterday.

昨天我看到了謝爾蓋和 愛德華．史諾登的照片。

Some of you may have seen it.

在座的有些人應該也看到了。

But I think, for me, I guess,

但我個人覺得，

privacy and security are a really important thing.

隱私和安全是非常重要的事情。

We think about it in terms of both things,

我們在這兩方面都有所思考，

and I think you can't have privacy without security,

我認為沒有安全就不存在隱私，

so let me just talk about security first,

所以我先談談安全，

because you asked about Snowden and all of that,

因為你問到了有關史諾登的事情，

and then I'll say a little bit about privacy.

然後我會再講一點隱私。

I think for me, it's tremendously disappointing

我個人感到極度失望，

that the government

政府偷偷做了這些事 沒有告訴我們。

secretly did all this stuff and didn't tell us.

I don't think we can have a democracy

我將不再擁有民主，

if we're having to protect you and our users

如果我們被迫由政府手中，

from the government

保護大家

for stuff that we've never had a conversation about.

不受未討論的事情侵害的話。

And I don't mean we have to know

我倒不是說我們必須知道

what the particular terrorist attack is they're worried

政府所擔心的具體 恐怖襲擊是什麼，

about protecting us from,

but we do need to know

而是我們需要知道

what the parameters of it is,

在什麼樣的情況下，

what kind of surveillance the government's

政府要進行何種監控，

going to do and how and why,

打算怎麼做，為什麼這樣做，

and I think we haven't had that conversation.

我認為我們並沒有 討論過這些問題。

So I think the government's actually done

我認為政府偷做這些事情，

itself a tremendous disservice

這種失職造成了嚴重的傷害。

by doing all that in secret.

CR: Never coming to Google

查理．羅斯： 絕不要找 Google 要任何東西？

to ask for anything.

LP: Not Google, but the public.

賴瑞．佩吉：不是 Google，而是大眾。

I think we need to have a debate about that,

我認為我們需要討論一下這個問題，

or we can't have a functioning democracy.

否則我們的民主就名不符實。

It's just not possible.

這不可能稱為民主。

So I'm sad that Google's

對於 Google 處在一個，

in the position of protecting you and our users

要防範政府偷雞摸狗的位置，

from the government

doing secret thing that nobody knows about.

我覺得很可悲。

It doesn't make any sense.

這毫無道理。

CR: Yeah. And then there's a privacy side of it.

查理．羅斯：沒錯，然後還有隱私方面的問題。

LP: Yes. The privacy side,

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，還有隱私面，

I think it's -- the world is changing.

我認為，世界在變。

You carry a phone. It knows where you are.

你帶著手機，它知道你在哪裡。

There's so much more information about you,

還有許多你的個人資訊，

and that's an important thing,

這是件非常重要的事情，

and it makes sense why people are asking

人們也合理地提出一些，

difficult questions.

難以回答的問題。

We spend a lot of time thinking about this

我們花了很多時間去思考這一點，

and what the issues are.

以及問題所在。

I'm a little bit --

我有一點……

I think the main thing that we need to do

我認為我們需要做的事情裡最主要的一點，

is just provide people choice,

就是讓人們可以選擇，

show them what data's being collected --

告訴他們什麼數據會被收集──

search history, location data.

搜尋記錄、位置資訊。

We're excited about incognito mode in Chrome,

我們對於 Chrome 瀏覽器的 無痕模式感到很興奮，

and doing that in more ways,

將它應用到更多的方面，

just giving people more choice

也就是給予人們更多選擇，

and more awareness of what's going on.

讓他們更完整地 認識到發生了什麼事。

I also think it's very easy.

我也認為這非常簡單。

What I'm worried is that we throw out

我所擔心的是，

the baby with the bathwater.

我們會因噎廢食。

And I look at, on your show, actually,

我看到，在你的節目上，

I kind of lost my voice,

我嗓子有點啞了，

and I haven't gotten it back.

我還沒有恢復。

I'm hoping that by talking to you

我希望和你聊聊

I'm going to get it back.

能恢復得快一點。

CR: If I could do anything, I would do that.

查理．羅斯： 如果我能幫上什麼忙，我一定會幫。

LP: All right. So get out your voodoo doll

賴瑞．佩吉：那好，拿出你的巫毒娃娃，

and whatever you need to do.

該做什麼儘管做。

But I think, you know what, I look at that,

但是我認為，我看著這件事，

I made that public,

我把它公開化了，

and I got all this information.

我得到很多資訊。

We got a survey done on medical conditions

我做了個關於身體狀況的調查，

with people who have similar issues,

調查對象都有些類似的問題。

and I look at medical records, and I say,

我一邊看著醫療記錄，一邊說，

wouldn't it be amazing

如果每個人的醫療記錄

if everyone's medical records were available

都可以匿名地提供給

anonymously

to research doctors?

做研究的醫生，

豈不是很好？

And when someone accesses your medical record,

當有人查看你的醫療記錄時，

a research doctor,

一個做研究的醫生，

they could see, you could see which doctor

他們可以看到，你也可以看到

accessed it and why,

是哪位醫生看了，為什麼，

and you could maybe learn about

然後你也許可以了解到

what conditions you have.

你的狀況如何。

I think if we just did that,

我想我們若做到這點，

we'd save 100,000 lives this year.

一年就可以多救十萬人。

CR: Absolutely. Let me go — (Applause)

查理．羅斯：毫無疑問。讓我…… （掌聲）

LP: So I guess I'm just very worried that

賴瑞．佩吉：我想我就是非常擔心

with Internet privacy,

網路隱私的問題。

we're doing the same thing we're doing with medical records,

我們的問題和醫療記錄一樣，

is we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater,

就是我們因噎廢食了，

and we're not really thinking

我們沒有真正地思考過

about the tremendous good that can come

資訊共享帶來的巨大益處，

from people sharing information

人們分享資訊，

with the right people in the right ways.

與正確的人分享，用正確的方式。

CR: And the necessary condition

查理．羅斯：還有一個必要條件，

that people have to have confidence

就是人們得有信心，

that their information will not be abused.

相信他們的資訊不會被濫用。

LP: Yeah, and I had this problem with my voice stuff.

賴瑞．佩吉：是的， 我在嗓音上有同樣的問題，

I was scared to share it.

我害怕分享出來。

Sergey encouraged me to do that,

謝爾蓋鼓勵我這麼做，

and it was a great thing to do.

這件事非常值得做。

CR: And the response has been overwhelming.

查理．羅斯： 而且大家的反應出奇地好。

LP: Yeah, and people are super positive.

賴瑞．佩吉： 是的，而且人們的反應極為正面。

We got thousands and thousands of people

我們調查了成千上萬的人，

with similar conditions,

都有類似狀況，

which there's no data on today.

而這些數據至今都是沒有的。

So it was a really good thing.

所以這是件非常好的事情。

CR: So talking about the future, what is it about you

查理．羅斯： 說到未來，你是怎麼

and transportation systems?

注意到運輸系統的？

LP: Yeah. I guess I was just frustrated

賴瑞．佩吉： 我在密西根州讀大學的時候，

with this when I was at college in Michigan.

我是感到非常沮喪的。

I had to get on the bus and take it

我必須坐公共汽車，

and wait for it.

還要等它。

And it was cold and snowing.

當時很冷，又在下雪。

I did some research on how much it cost,

我做了點成本研究，

and I just became a bit obsessed with transportation systems.

然後我就有點迷上了運輸系統。

CR: And that began the idea of an automated car.

查理．羅斯： 於是就有了自動駕駛汽車的想法。

LP: Yeah, about 18 years ago I learned about

賴瑞．佩吉： 是的，大約 18 年前我發現

people working on automated cars,

有人在研究自動駕駛，

and I became fascinated by that,

我被深深吸引，

and it takes a while to get these projects going,

讓這些專案有所進展得花點時間，

but I'm super excited about the possibilities of that

但是想到有可能讓世界變得更好，

我感到無比興奮。

improving the world.

There's 20 million people or more injured per year.

每年有超過兩千萬人受傷。

It's the leading cause of death

這是美國 34 歲以下群體

for people under 34 in the U.S.

的主要死因。

CR: So you're talking about saving lives.

查理．羅斯：這就是拯救生命了。

LP: Yeah, and also saving space

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，也是節省空間

and making life better.

和讓生活更美好。

Los Angeles is half parking lots and roads,

在洛杉磯一半的土地 都是停車場和道路，

half of the area,

一半的土地，

and most cities are not far behind, actually.

而且大部分城市其實也差不多了。

It's just crazy

這實在是太瘋狂了，

that that's what we use our space for.

我們居然這樣利用空間。

CR: And how soon will we be there?

查理．羅斯：我們什麼時候可以實現？

LP: I think we can be there very, very soon.

賴瑞．佩吉： 我想非常、非常快就可以實現了。

We've driven well over 100,000 miles

我們已正常行駛超過十萬英里，

now totally automated.

現在完全是自動行駛。

I'm super excited about getting that out quickly.

能夠這麼快地實現它，讓我無比興奮。

CR: But it's not only you're talking about automated cars.

查理．羅斯：但你考慮的 不只是自動駕駛汽車，

You also have this idea for bicycles.

你對自行車也有這樣的想法。

LP: Well at Google, we got this idea

賴瑞．佩吉： 在 Google，我們有個想法，

that we should just provide free bikes to everyone,

我們應該向每一個人 提供免費自行車，

and that's been amazing, most of the trips.

這非常棒，對大多數旅行都是。

You see bikes going everywhere,

自行車哪都能去，

and the bikes wear out.

而自行車會磨損，

They're getting used 24 hours a day.

一天 24 小時都在用。

CR: But you want to put them above the street, too.

查理．羅斯：但你也想把自行車放到街道上。

LP: Well I said, how do we get people

賴瑞．佩吉：我就說，怎樣才能

using bikes more?

讓人們多騎自行車呢？

CR: We may have a video here.

查理．羅斯：我們這有一段影片。

LP: Yeah, let's show the video.

賴瑞．佩吉： 好，我們來播一下影片，

I just got excited about this.

這個讓我非常興奮。

(Music)

（音樂）

So this is actually how you might separate

其實這就是把自行車與 汽車分離的最經濟方法，

bikes from cars with minimal cost.

Anyway, it looks totally crazy,

這看起來很瘋狂，

but I was actually thinking about our campus,

但實際上我考慮的是我們的校園，

working with the Zippies and stuff,

和許多城市等等一起合作，

and just trying to get a lot more bike usage,

就是想大大提高自行車使用率，

and I was thinking about,

我還在想，

how do you cost-effectively separate

我們怎樣才能有效並且廉價地

the bikes from traffic?

把自行車從車流中分離？

And I went and searched,

我做了研究，

and this is what I found.

這就是我所得到的。

And we're not actually working on this,

我們其實沒有研究這個，

that particular thing,

我是說這個具體方案，

but it gets your imagination going.

但它擴展了想像力。

CR: Let me close with this.

查理．羅斯： 我們把這個話題先告一段落，

Give me a sense of the philosophy of your own mind.

說一下你內心的哲學。

You have this idea of [Google X].

你有了 Google X 這個想法，

You don't simply want

你想要的不只是一些

to go in some small, measurable arena of progress.

小的，規模有限的舞臺。

LP: Yeah, I think

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，我認為

many of the things we just talked about are like that,

我們剛討論過的許多事情就是這樣，

where they're really --

它們真是……

I almost use the economic concept of additionality,

我差點要用經濟學 概念上的額外性了，

which means that you're doing something

就是說，你要做的事情 本來並不會發生，

that wouldn't happen unless you were actually doing it.

除非你真的動手做。

And I think the more you can do things like that,

我認為這樣的事情你做得越多，

the bigger impact you have,

你的影響力就越大，

and that's about doing things

重點在於

that people might not think are possible.

去做人們認為不可能的事。

And I've been amazed,

我驚訝地發現，

the more I learn about technology,

我懂的技術越多，

the more I realize I don't know,

就越意識到自己的不足。

and that's because this technological horizon,

這是因為技術的眼界提高了，

the thing that you can see to do next,

也就是預見下一步 該怎麼做的能力。

the more you learn about technology,

你懂的技術越多，

the more you learn what's possible.

你就越知道什麼是可能的。

You learn that the balloons are possible

你知道氣球專案是可能的，

because there's some material that will work for them.

因為有合適的材料可用。

CR: What's interesting about you too, though, for me,

查理．羅斯：不過在我看來， 你的有趣之處在於，

is that, we have lots of people

有很多的人在思考未來，

who are thinking about the future,

有很多的人在思考未來，

and they are going and looking and they're coming back,

他們去看了看，又回來了，

but we never see the implementation.

而我們卻沒有看到最終實現。

I think of somebody you knew

我想到了一個人，你一定知道，

and read about, Tesla.

特斯拉。

The principle of that for you is what?

你在這方面的原則是怎樣的？

LP: Well, I think invention is not enough.

賴瑞．佩吉： 我認為僅僅有發明是不夠的。

If you invent something,

如果你發明一樣東西，

Tesla invented electric power that we use,

特斯拉發明了 我們用的電力系統，

but he struggled to get it out to people.

但是他推廣起來就非常困難，

That had to be done by other people.

普及是由別人實現的，

It took a long time.

花費了很長時間。

And I think if we can actually combine both things,

我認為，如果我們能將 二者真正結合起來，

where we have an innovation and invention focus,

同時著眼於創新與發明，

plus the ability to really -- a company

再加上一家公司，

that can really commercialize things

可以使成果真正商業化，

and get them to people

讓人們接觸到它，

in a way that's positive for the world

讓它對世界有積極的影響，

and to give people hope.

並給人們帶來希望。

You know, I'm amazed with the Loon Project

你知道，大家對氣球專案的關注程度

just how excited people were about that,

讓我很是吃驚，

because it gave them hope

因為它帶來了希望，

for the two thirds of the world

尤其是對世界上無法 上網的三分之二來說，

that doesn't have Internet right now that's any good.

CR: Which is a second thing about corporations.

查理．羅斯： 這就是關於公司的第二件事。

You are one of those people who believe

有些人，包括你，認為，

that corporations are an agent of change

公司可以成為帶來改變的媒介，

if they are run well.

如果好好經營的話。

LP: Yeah. I'm really dismayed

賴瑞．佩吉：是的， 多數人認為企業是邪惡的，

most people think companies are basically evil.

這讓我很是沮喪，

They get a bad rap.

這麼說並不公正，

And I think that's somewhat correct.

但我認為在某程度上又是正確的。

Companies are doing the same incremental thing

公司做的事情就是漸進發展，

that they did 50 years ago

五十年前的公司就這樣做，

or 20 years ago.

或者說二十年前，

That's not really what we need.

這也並非是我們真正需要的。

We need, especially in technology,

我們需要的是，特別是在科技上，

we need revolutionary change,

是革命性改變，

not incremental change.

而不是漸進式改變。

CR: You once said, actually,

查理．羅斯：你曾說過，

as I think I've got this about right,

我希望我的理解是對的，

that you might consider,

就是，你可能考慮，

rather than giving your money,

相較於直接捐出你的錢，

if you were leaving it to some cause,

你更願意用於某些事業，

just simply giving it to Elon Musk,

給伊隆．馬斯克就好了，

because you had confidence

因為你相信

that he would change the future,

他會改變未來，

and that you would therefore —

因此你就會……

LP: Yeah, if you want to go Mars,

賴瑞．佩吉：是的，如果你想去火星，

he wants to go to Mars,

他想去火星，

to back up humanity,

來為人類尋找後備方案，

that's a worthy goal, but it's a company,

這目標很有價值， 但對公司來說是慈善事業。

and it's philanthropical.

So I think we aim to do kind of similar things.

所以我覺得我們的目標 是做些類似的事情。

And I think, you ask, we have a lot of employees

你問過，我們在 Google 有許多員工，

at Google who have become pretty wealthy.

他們非常富有，

People make a lot of money in technology.

通過技術賺了很多錢，

A lot of people in the room are pretty wealthy.

很多人都非常富有。

You're working because you want to change the world.

你工作的目的是改變世界，

You want to make it better.

你想讓世界變得更好。

Why isn't the company that you work for

為什麼你工作的這家公司，

worthy not just of your time

值得你投入時間，

but your money as well?

卻不值得你投入金錢呢？

I mean, but we don't have a concept of that.

我的意思是，我們並不這樣認為，

That's not how we think about companies,

我們也不是這樣看待公司的。

and I think it's sad,

我也覺得很傷感，

because companies are most of our effort.

因為我們所付出的努力 絕大部分都花在了公司上。

They're where most of people's time is,

人們在這裡付出了最多的時間，

where a lot of the money is,

也花費了許多金錢，

and so I think I'd like for us to help out

所以我想我要幫助大家，

more than we are.

而非只顧自己。

CR: When I close conversations with lots of people,

查理．羅斯： 我跟許多人的談話結束時，

I always ask this question:

我總是問這樣的一個問題：

What state of mind,

怎樣的心態，

what quality of mind is it

怎樣的心靈特質，

that has served you best?

讓你最有收穫？

People like Rupert Murdoch have said curiosity,

像魯柏．梅鐸這樣的人 說是好奇心，

and other people in the media have said that.

別的媒體人士也這樣說。

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have said focus.

比爾．蓋茲和華倫．巴菲特 說是專注，

What quality of mind,

什麼樣的心靈特質

as I leave this audience,

──在與觀眾說再見前──

has enabled you to think about the future

使得你能夠思考未來，

and at the same time

而且與此同時，

change the present?

改變現在？

LP: You know, I think the most important thing --

賴瑞．佩吉： 我認為最重要的事情，

I looked at lots of companies

我見過很多公司，

and why I thought they don't succeed over time.

為什麼我認為它們 沒能經受時間的考驗。

We've had a more rapid turnover of companies.

如今公司的人員流動更快，

And I said, what did they fundamentally do wrong?

我問，他們出錯的根源是什麼？

What did those companies all do wrong?

這些公司都錯在了哪裡？

And usually it's just that they missed the future.

通常就是因為他們錯失了未來。

And so I think, for me,

所以在我看來，

I just try to focus on that and say,

我就是專注於這一點，並且在想，

what is that future really going to be

未來將真正走向何方，

and how do we create it,

我們要如何創造未來，

and how do we cause our organization,

我們怎樣才能讓我們的組織

to really focus on that

真正專注於它，

and drive that at a really high rate?

並且帶領組織快速行動呢？

And so that's been curiosity,

所以那就是好奇心，

it's been looking at things

去尋找人們

people might not think about,

可能沒有想過的東西，

working on things that no one else is working on,

研究別人所沒有研究過的東西，

because that's where the additionality really is,

因為那才是真正的額外性，

and be willing to do that,

同時樂於去做，

to take that risk.

樂於承擔風險。

Look at Android.

看看 Android，

I felt guilty about working on Android

為 Android 花心力曾讓我感到內疚，

when it was starting.

在它剛起步時，

It was a little startup we bought.

我們併購它時， 它只是個小公司。

It wasn't really what we were really working on.

它當時也不是我們 真正努力的方向。

And I felt guilty about spending time on that.

為它花時間讓我感到內疚，

That was stupid.

那真是非常傻。

That was the future, right?

但那就是未來，對吧？

That was a good thing to be working on.

那是個很棒的東西， 值得為之努力。

CR: It is great to see you here.

查理．羅斯： 很高興在這裡見到你，

It's great to hear from you,

很高興聽到你的講述，

and a pleasure to sit at this table with you.

和你一起坐在這也是我的榮幸。

Thanks, Larry.

謝謝賴瑞。

LP: Thank you.

賴瑞．佩吉：謝謝你。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CR: Larry Page.

查理．羅斯：賴瑞．佩吉。