Noah Feldman: Politics and religion are technologies

28,907 views ใƒป 2008-10-10

TED


ูŠุฑุฌู‰ ุงู„ู†ู‚ุฑ ู†ู‚ุฑู‹ุง ู…ุฒุฏูˆุฌู‹ุง ููˆู‚ ุงู„ุชุฑุฌู…ุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ ุฃุฏู†ุงู‡ ู„ุชุดุบูŠู„ ุงู„ููŠุฏูŠูˆ.

ุงู„ู…ุชุฑุฌู…: Anwar Dafa-Alla ุงู„ู…ุฏู‚ู‘ู‚: Danya Gammas
00:12
I want to argue to you that in fact, politics and religion,
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ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุฃู† ุฃูุฑุถ ู„ูƒู… ุฃู† ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ุŒุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู†ุŒ
00:17
which are the two primary factors --
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ูˆู‡ู…ุง ุงู„ุนุงู…ู„ุงู† ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณูŠุงู† --
00:19
not the sole, but overwhelmingly, the primary factors --
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ู„ูŠุณุง ุงู„ูˆุญูŠุฏุงู†ุŒ ู„ูƒู† ุจุฃุบู„ุจูŠุฉ ุณุงุญู‚ุฉุŒ ุงู„ุนูˆุงู…ู„ ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณูŠุฉ--
00:22
which are driving towards a war which looks extremely likely --
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชู‚ูˆุฏ ุฅู„ู‰ ุญุฑุจ ุชุจุฏูˆ ู…ุฑุฌุญุฉ ู„ู„ุบุงูŠุฉ --
00:25
bordering on the inevitable at this point,
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ุง ู…ูุฑ ู…ู†ู‡ุง ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ุฑุญู„ุฉุŒ
00:27
whether one is in favor of that or not --
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ุณูˆุงุก ุฃูƒุงู† ุฃุญุฏู‡ู…ุง ูŠุฎุฏู… ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ ุฃู… ู„ุง--
00:29
that politics and religion are, in fact, themselves
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ุฃู† ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู† ู‡ู…ุงุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉุŒ ุฃู†ูุณู‡ู…ุง
00:32
better conceptualized as kinds of technology,
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ูŠู…ูƒู† ุชุฎูŠู„ู‡ู…ุง ุจุตูˆุฑุฉ ุฃูุถู„ ูƒุฃู†ูˆุงุน ู…ู† ุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง
00:36
and subject to kinds of questions that we regularly consider
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ูˆุชุฎุถุน ู„ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณุงุฆู„ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ู†ุธุฑ ููŠู‡ุง ุจุงู†ุชุธุงู…
00:41
in the space of conceptual design.
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ููŠ ู…ุฌุงู„ ุงู„ุชุตู…ูŠู… ุงู„ู†ุธุฑูŠ
00:44
Here's what I mean. Politics and --
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ู‡ุฐุง ู…ุง ุฃู‚ุตุฏู‡. ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉ ูˆ--
00:47
let's focus on the political system in particular question here,
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ุฏุนูˆู†ุง ู†ุฑูƒุฒ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ ูˆุงู„ุณุคุงู„ ุงู„ู…ุทุฑูˆุญ ู‡ู†ุง ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุฎุตูˆุต ุŒ
00:50
which is the system of democracy.
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ูˆู‡ูˆ ุงู„ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠ
00:52
Democracy, as a type of politics, is a technology
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ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉุŒ ูƒู†ุธุงู… ุณูŠุงุณูŠุŒ ู‡ูŠ ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง
00:56
for the control and deployment of power.
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ู„ุถุจุท ูˆ ุชูˆุธูŠู ุงู„ุณู„ุทุฉ
00:58
You can deploy power in a wide range of ways.
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุชูˆุฒูŠุน ุงู„ุณู„ุทุฉ ุจุทุฑู‚ ูƒุซูŠุฑุฉ.
01:01
The famous ones -- despotism is a good one;
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ุงู„ุทุฑู‚ ุงู„ุดู‡ูŠุฑุฉ ุŒ ุงู„ุงุณุชุจุฏุงุฏ ู‡ูˆ ู…ุซุงู„ ุฌูŠุฏ.
01:03
anarchy is a way to not deploy the power in any organized way,
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ุงู„ููˆุถู‰ ู„ูŠุณุช ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ู„ุชูˆุฒูŠุน ุงู„ุณู„ุทุฉ ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ู…ู†ุธู…ุฉุŒ
01:06
to do it in a radically diffused fashion;
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ู„ู„ู‚ูŠุงู… ุจุฐู„ูƒ ุจุตูˆุฑุฉ ุฌุฐุฑูŠุฉ ู…ุชูˆุงุฒู†ุฉ.
01:08
and democracy is a set of technologies,
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ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ู‡ูŠ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุงุช
01:10
which have the effect of, in principle,
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ู„ุฏูŠู‡ุง ุชุฃุซูŠุฑ ุนู„ู‰ุŒ ุจุดูƒู„ ุฃุณุงุณูŠ
01:13
diffusing the power source to a large number of people
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ุชูˆุฒูŠุน ู…ุตุฏุฑ ุงู„ุณู„ุทุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ุนุฏุฏ ูƒุจูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ
01:16
and then re-concentrating it in a smaller group of people who govern,
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ูˆุฅุนุงุฏุฉ ุชุฑูƒูŠุฒู‡ุง ููŠ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ุฃุตุบุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุญูƒู…ูˆู†ุŒ
01:19
and who themselves are, in principle, authorized to govern
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ูˆุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‡ู…ุŒ ุฃุณุงุณุงู‹ ู…ุฎูˆู‘ู„ูŠู† ู„ู„ุญูƒู…
01:23
by virtue of what the broader public has done.
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ุจูุถู„ ู…ุง ู‚ุงู… ุจู‡ ุนุฏุฏ ุฃูƒุจุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ.
01:26
Now, consider religion -- in this case Islam,
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ู„ู†ู†ุธุฑ ููŠ ุงู„ุฏูŠู†-- ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุญุงู„ุฉ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ุŒ
01:29
which is the religion that, in some direct sense,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠ ู‡ูˆ ุฏูŠู†ุŒ ุจุตูˆุฑุฉ ู…ุจุงุดุฑุฉ
01:32
can be said to be precipitating what we're about to enter.
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ูŠู…ูƒู† ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ ุนู†ู‡ ู…ุง ู†ุญู† ุจุตุฏุฏ ุฏุฎูˆู„ู‡ ุงู„ุขู†.
01:36
Let me say parenthetically why I think that's the case,
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ุฃุณู…ุญูˆุง ู„ูŠ ุฃู† ุฃู‚ูˆู„ ุจูŠู† ู‚ูˆุณูŠู† ู…ุง ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู†ู‡ ุงู„ุฅุฏุนุงุก
01:38
because I think it's a potentially controversial statement.
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ู„ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠุญุชู…ู„ ุงู„ุฌุฏู„.
01:41
I would put it in the following equation: no 9/11, no war.
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ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ูˆุถุน ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ุนุงุฏู„ุฉ: ู„ุง 9/11ุŒ ู„ุง ุญุฑุจ.
01:45
At the beginning of the Bush administration,
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ููŠ ุจุฏุงูŠุฉ ุนู‡ุฏ ุฅุฏุงุฑุฉ ุจูˆุดุŒ
01:49
when President Bush, now President Bush, was running for president,
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ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณ ุจูˆุดุŒ ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณ ุงู„ุขู† ุจูˆุดุŒ ูƒุงู† ูŠู†ุงูุณ ู„ู„ุฑุฆุงุณุฉุŒ
01:52
he made it very clear that he was not interested in intervening broadly in the world.
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ุฃูˆุถุญ ุจุฌู„ุงุก ุฃู†ู‡ ุบูŠุฑ ุฑุงุบุจ ููŠ ุงู„ุชุฏุฎู„ ุนู„ู‰ ู†ุทุงู‚ ูˆุงุณุน ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู….
01:55
In fact, the trend was for disengagement with the rest of the world.
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ููŠ ูˆุงู‚ุน ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑุŒ ุงู„ุฅุชุฌุงู‡ ูƒุงู† ููƒ ุงู„ุฅุฑุชุจุงุท ู…ุน ุจู‚ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู….
01:58
That's why we heard about the backing away from the Kyoto protocol, for example.
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ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุณู…ุนู†ุง ุนู† ุงู„ุชุฑุงุฌุน ุนู† ู…ุนุงู‡ุฏุฉ ูƒูŠูˆุชูˆุŒ ุนู„ู‰ ุณุจูŠู„ ุงู„ู…ุซุงู„.
02:02
After 9/11, the tables were turned.
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ุจุนุฏ 9/11ุŒ ุงู†ู‚ู„ุจุช ุงู„ุฃู…ูˆุฑ
02:05
And the president decided, with his advisors,
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ูˆู‚ุฑุฑ ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณ ู…ุน ู…ุณุชุดุงุฑูŠู‡ุŒ
02:08
to undertake some kind of an active intervention in the world around us.
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ุฃู† ูŠุฃุฎุฐ ุฏูˆุฑ ูุนู‘ุงู„ ุจุงู„ุชุฏุฎู„ ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุญูˆู„ู†ุง.
02:12
That began with Afghanistan,
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ูƒุงู†ุช ุงู„ุจุฏุงูŠุฉ ููŠ ุฃูุบุงู†ุณุชุงู†ุŒ
02:14
and when Afghanistan went extremely smoothly and quickly,
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ูˆุนู†ุฏู…ุง ูƒุงู†ุช ุฃูุบุงู†ุณุชุงู† ุณู‡ู„ุฉ ู„ู„ุบุงูŠุฉ ูˆุณุฑูŠุนุฉุŒ
02:17
a decision was made through the technology of democracy --
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ุฃูุฎุฐ ู‚ุฑุงุฑ ุนุจุฑ ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ--
02:21
again, notice, not a perfect technology --
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ู…ุฌุฏุฏุงู‹ุŒ ู„ุงุญุธูˆุงุŒ ู„ูŠุณุช ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ูƒุงู…ู„ุฉ--
02:24
but through the technology of democracy
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ู„ูƒู† ุนุจุฑ ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ
02:26
that this administration was going to push in the direction of another war --
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ุจุฃู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุฅุฏุงุฑุฉ ุณุชุฏูุน ุจุฅุชุฌุงู‡ ุญุฑุจ ุฃุฎุฑู‰.
02:29
this time, a war in Iraq.
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ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ุฑุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุนุฑุงู‚.
02:31
Now, the reason I begin by saying "no 9/11, no war"
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุณุจุจ ุจุฏุงูŠุชูŠ ุจุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ุŒ ู„ุง 9/11ุŒ ู„ุง ุญุฑุจ
02:36
is that we have to acknowledge that Islam,
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ุฃู†ู†ุง ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ู†ุนุชุฑู ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ุŒ
02:40
as interpreted by a very, very small, extremely radical group of people,
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ูˆูƒู…ุง ูŠูุณุฑู‡ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุงุช ู…ุชุทุฑูุฉ ุตุบูŠุฑุฉ ุŒ ุตุบูŠุฑุฉ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณุŒ
02:46
was a precipitating cause of the 9/11 attacks --
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ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุณุจุจ ูˆุฑุงุก ู‡ุฌู…ุงุช 9/11--
02:50
the precipitating cause of the 9/11 attacks --
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ุงู„ุณุจุจ ูˆุฑุงุก ู‡ุฌู…ุงุช 9/11--
02:52
and as a consequence, at one degree of remove,
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ูˆูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ู„ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ููŠ ู†ูุณ ุฏุฑุฌุฉ ุงู„ู‚ุฑุงุจุฉุŒ
02:55
the precipitating cause of the coming war that we're about to be engaged in.
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ุณุจุจ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฏู…ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ุญู† ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุดูƒ ุงู„ู…ุดุงุฑูƒุฉ ููŠู‡ุง.
02:59
And I would add that bin Laden and his followers
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ูˆุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุฅุถุงูุฉ ุฃู† ุจู† ู„ุงุฏู† ูˆุฃุชุจุงุนู‡
03:02
are consciously devoted to the goal of creating a conflict between democracy,
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ุŒ ู…ููƒุฑุณูˆู† ุจูˆุนูŠ ุฅู„ู‰ ู‡ุฏู ุฎู„ู‚ ุตุฑุงุน ู…ุง ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ
03:07
or at least capitalist democracy, on the one hand,
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ุฃูˆ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃู‚ู„ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฑุฃุณู…ุงู„ูŠุฉุŒ ู…ู† ุฌุงู†ุจุŒ
03:10
and the world of Islam as they see and define it.
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ูˆุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ ูƒู…ุง ูŠุฑูˆู†ู‡ ูˆูŠูุนุฑููˆู†ู‡
03:14
Now, how is Islam a technology in this conceptual apparatus?
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ูƒูŠู ูŠูƒูˆู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ููŠ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุฌู‡ุงุฒ ุงู„ู…ูุงู‡ูŠู…ูŠุŸ
03:17
Well, it's a technology for, first, salvation in its most basic sense.
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ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ุฅู†ู‡ ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ุฃูˆู„ุงู‹ุŒ ู„ู„ุฎู„ุงุต ููŠ ุฃุจุณุท ู…ุนุงู†ูŠู‡.
03:21
It's meant to be a mechanism for construing the universe
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ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ูุชุฑุถ ุฃู† ูŠูƒูˆู† ุขู„ูŠุฉ ู„ูู‡ู… ุงู„ูƒูˆู†
03:24
in a way that will bring about the salvation of the individual believer,
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ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุชู‚ุฏู… ุงู„ุฎู„ุงุต ู„ู„ูุฑุฏ ุงู„ู…ุคู…ู†ุŒ
03:28
but it's also meant by the Islamists --
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ู„ูƒู†ู‡ ูŠูุชุฑุถ ุฃูŠุถุงู‹ ุจุญุณุจ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠูŠู†--
03:30
and I use that term to mean people who believe that Islam --
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ูˆุฃุณุชุฎุฏู… ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ุตุทู„ุญ ู„ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู† ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…--
03:34
they follow the slogan, Islam is the answer to a wide range of questions,
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ูŠุชุจุนูˆู† ุงู„ุดุนุงุฑุŒ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุญู„ ู„ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ูˆุงุณุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณุงุฆู„ ุŒ
03:37
whether they're social, or political, or personal, or spiritual.
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ุณูˆุงุก ูƒุงู†ุช ุงุฌุชู…ุงุนูŠุฉุŒ ุฃูˆ ุณูŠุงุณูŠุฉุŒ ุฃูˆ ุดุฎุตูŠุฉุŒ ุฃูˆ ุฑูˆุญูŠุฉ.
03:40
Within the sphere of people who have that view,
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ููŠ ู…ุญูŠุท ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุฃุตุญุงุจ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู†ุธุฑุฉุŒ
03:42
and it's a large number of people in the Muslim world
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ูˆู‡ู… ุนุฏุฏ ุถุฎู… ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ
03:44
who disagree with bin Laden in his application,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฎุชู„ููˆู† ู…ุน ุจู† ู„ุงุฏู† ูˆู…ุง ูุนู„ู‡ุŒ
03:46
but agree that Islam is the answer.
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ู„ูƒู†ู‡ู… ูŠุชูู‚ูˆู† ุนู„ู‰ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุญู„.
03:48
Islam represents a way of engaging the world
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ูŠู…ุซู‘ู„ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ู„ุฌุฐุจ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…
03:51
through which one can achieve certain desirable goals.
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ูŠู…ูƒู† ู„ู„ู…ุฑุก ู…ู† ุฎู„ุงู„ู‡ุง ุชุญู‚ูŠู‚ ุฃู‡ุฏุงู ู…ุญุฏุฏุฉ ู…ู†ุดูˆุฏุฉ.
03:54
And the goals from the perspective of Muslims are, in principle,
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ูˆุงู„ุฃู‡ุฏุงู ู…ู† ูˆุฌู‡ุฉ ู†ุธุฑ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ู‡ูŠุŒ ุฃุณุงุณุงู‹ุŒ
03:58
peace, justice and equality,
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ุงู„ุณู„ุงู…ุŒ ุงู„ุนุฏุงู„ุฉุŒ ูˆุงู„ู…ุณุงูˆุงุฉุŒ
04:01
but on terms that correspond to traditional Muslim teachings.
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ู„ูƒู† ุจุดุฑูˆุท ุชุชูˆุงูู‚ ู…ุน ุงู„ุชุนุงู„ูŠู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉ .
04:05
Now, I don't want to leave a misimpression
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ู„ุง ุงุฑูŠุฏ ุชุฑูƒ ุฅู†ุทุจุงุน ุฎุงุทุฆ
04:08
by identifying either of these propositions --
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ู…ู† ุฎู„ุงู„ ุชุนุฑูŠู ุฃูŠ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ู‚ุชุฑุญุงุช--
04:11
rather, either of these phenomena, democracy or Islam -- as technologies.
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ุจุฏู„ุงู‹ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ุฃูŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุธูˆุงู‡ุฑุŒ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุฃูˆ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ุŒ ูƒุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุงุช
04:15
I don't want to suggest that they are a single thing that you can point to.
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ู„ุง ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุฃู† ุฃู‚ุชุฑุญ ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุดูŠุก ูˆุงุญุฏ ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุงู„ุฅุดุงุฑุฉ ุฅู„ูŠู‡ุง.
04:18
And I think a good way to prove this
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู† ุงู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุฌูŠุฏุฉ ู„ุฅุซุจุงุช ุฐู„ูƒ
04:20
is simply to demonstrate to you what my thought process was
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ุจุจุณุงุทุฉ ุฃู† ุฃุทุฑุญ ุนูŠู„ูƒู… ู…ุง ููƒุฑุช ููŠู‡ ุฎู„ุงู„ ุนู…ู„ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฅุนุฏุงุฏ
04:23
when deciding what to put on the wall behind me when I spoke.
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ุนู†ุฏ ุชู‚ุฑูŠุฑ ู…ุง ูŠุฌุจ ูˆุถุนู‡ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุดุงุดุฉ ุฎู„ุงู„ ุญุฏูŠุซูŠ.
04:26
And I ran immediately into a conceptual problem:
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ูˆุฏุฎู„ุช ููŠ ุงู„ุญุงู„ ููŠ ู…ุดูƒู„ุฉ ู…ูุงู‡ูŠู…ูŠุฉ--
04:28
you can't show a picture of democracy.
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ู„ุง ูŠู…ูƒู† ูˆุถุน ุตูˆุฑุฉ ู„ู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ.
04:30
You can show a slogan, or a symbol, or a sign that stands for democracy.
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ูˆุถุน ุดุนุงุฑุŒ ุฃูˆ ุฑู…ุฒุŒ ุฃูˆ ุนู„ุงู…ุฉ ุชู…ุซู‘ู„ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ.
04:35
You can show the Capitol --
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุนุฑุถ ุงู„ูƒูˆู†ุฌุฑุณ--
04:36
I had the same problem when I was designing the cover
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ูˆุงุฌู‡ุชู†ูŠ ู†ูุณ ุงู„ู…ุดูƒู„ุฉ ุฃุซู†ุงุก ุชุตู…ูŠู… ุงู„ุบู„ุงู
04:38
of my forthcoming book, in fact --
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ู„ูƒุชุงุจูŠ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฏู…ุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ--
04:40
what do you put on the cover to show democracy?
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ู…ุงุฐุง ุชุถุน ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุบู„ุงู ู„ุนุฑุถ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉุŸ
04:42
And the same problem with respect to Islam.
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ูˆู†ูุณ ุงู„ู…ุดูƒู„ุฉ ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ู„ู„ุฅุณู„ุงู….
04:44
You can show a mosque, or you can show worshippers,
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุนุฑุถ ู…ุณุฌุฏุŒ ุฃูˆ ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุนุฑุถ ู…ุตู„ูŠู†ุŒ
04:46
but there's not a straightforward way of depicting Islam.
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ู„ูƒู† ู„ุง ุชูˆุฌุฏ ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ู…ุจุงุดุฑุฉ ู„ุชุตูˆูŠุฑ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู….
04:48
That's because these are the kinds of concepts
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ู‡ุฐุง ุจุณุจุจ ุฃู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุฃู†ูˆุงุน ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ูุงู‡ูŠู…
04:50
that are not susceptible to easy representation.
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ู„ูŠุณุช ุฎุงุถุนุฉ ุจุณู‡ูˆู„ุฉ ู„ู„ุชู…ุซูŠู„.
04:53
Now, it follows from that, that they're deeply contestable.
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ู†ุณุชู†ุชุฌ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุฌุฏู„ูŠุฉ ุฌุฏุงู‹.
04:56
It follows from that that all of the people in the world
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ู†ุณุชู†ุชุฌ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุฃู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ูƒู„ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…
04:59
who say that they are Muslims can, in principle,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆู† ุฃู†ู‡ู… ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู†ุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณุŒ
05:01
subscribe to a wide range of different interpretations
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ูŠุดุชุฑูƒูˆู† ููŠ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ูˆุงุณุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุชูุณูŠุฑุงุช ุงู„ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ
05:04
of what Islam really is, and the same is true of democracy.
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ุญูˆู„ ู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉุŒ ูˆู†ูุณ ุงู„ุดูŠุก ูŠู†ุทุจู‚ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ.
05:09
In other words, unlike the word hope,
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ุจู…ุนู†ู‰ ุขุฎุฑุŒ ู„ูŠุณ ู…ุซู„ ูƒู„ู…ุฉ ุงู„ุฃู…ู„ุŒ
05:12
which one could look up in a dictionary and derive origins for,
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠู…ูƒู† ุงู„ุจุญุซ ุนู†ู‡ุง ููŠ ุงู„ู‚ุงู…ูˆุณ ูˆุชุณุชุฎุฑุฌ ุฃุตู„ ู„ู‡ุงุŒ
05:16
and, perhaps, reach some kind of a consensual use analysis,
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ูˆุฑุจู…ุงุŒ ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุงู„ูˆุตูˆู„ ุงู„ู‰ ู†ูˆุน ู…ู† ุงู„ุชุญู„ูŠู„ ุงู„ุชูˆุงูู‚ูŠุŒ
05:19
these are essentially contested concepts.
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ุฅู†ู‡ุง ููŠ ุงู„ุฃุตู„ ู…ูุงู‡ูŠู… ุฌุฏู„ูŠุฉ.
05:21
They're ideas about which people disagree in the deepest possible sense.
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ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุฃููƒุงุฑ ูŠุฎุชู„ู ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุญูˆู„ู‡ุง ููŠ ุฃุนู…ู‚ ู…ุนู†ู‰ ู…ู…ูƒู† ู„ู‡ุง .
05:27
And as a consequence of this disagreement,
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ูˆูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุฅุฎุชู„ุงู
05:30
it's very, very difficult for anyone to say,
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ู…ู† ุงู„ุตุนุจ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ู„ุฃูŠ ุดุฎุต ุฃู† ูŠู‚ูˆู„ุŒ
05:32
"I have the right version of Islam."
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"ู‡ุฐุง ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ุงู„ุตุญูŠุญ "
05:34
You know, post-9/11, we were treated to the amazing phenomenon
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ุชุนุฑููˆู†ุŒ ุนู‚ุจ 9/11ุŒ ุชุนุฑุถู†ุง ู„ุธุงู‡ุฑุฉ ู…ุฏู‡ุดุฉ
05:37
of George W. Bush saying, "Islam means peace."
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ู„ุฌูˆุฑุฌ ุฏุจู„ูŠูˆ. ุจูˆุด ูŠู‚ูˆู„ุŒ "ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุงู„ุณู„ุงู…."
05:40
Well, so says George W. Bush.
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ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ู‡ูƒุฐุง ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ุฌูˆุฑุฌ ุฏุจู„ูŠูˆ ุจูˆุด.
05:43
Other people would say it means something else.
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ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ุขุฎุฑูˆู† ุจุฃู†ู‡ ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุดุฆ ุขุฎุฑ.
05:45
Some people would say that Islam means submission.
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ุจุนุถ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ู‚ุฏ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆุง ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุงู„ุฎุถูˆุน.
05:47
Other people would say it means an acknowledgement
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ุขุฎุฑูˆู† ู‚ุฏ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆุง ุฃู†ู‡ ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุงู„ุงุนุชุฑุงู
05:49
or recognition of God's sovereignty.
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ุฃูˆ ุงู„ุงุนุชุฑุงู ุจุณูŠุงุฏุฉ ุงู„ู„ู‡
05:51
There are a wide range of different things that Islam can mean.
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ ู…ู† ู…ุฎุชู„ู ุงู„ุฃุดูŠุงุก ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠู…ูƒู† ุฃู† ูŠุนู†ูŠู‡ุง ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู….
05:54
And ostensibly, the same is true of democracy.
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ูˆุธุงู‡ุฑูŠุงู‹ ูŠู†ุทุจู‚ ุงู„ุดุฆ ู†ูุณู‡ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ.
05:56
Some people say that democracy consists basically in elections.
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ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ุจุนุถ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุชูƒูˆู† ุฃุณุงุณุงู‹ ููŠ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช.
05:59
Other people say no, that's not enough,
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ุขุฎุฑูˆู† ูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆุง ู„ุงุŒ ุฐู„ูƒ ู„ุง ูŠูƒููŠุŒ
06:01
there have to be basic liberal rights: free speech, free press, equality of citizens.
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ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ุชูƒูˆู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุญู‚ูˆู‚ ู„ูŠุจุฑุงู„ูŠุฉ ุฃุณุงุณูŠุฉ: ุญุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชุนุจูŠุฑุŒ ุญุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ุตุญุงูุฉุŒ ุงู„ู…ุณุงูˆุงุฉ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ู…ูˆุงุทู†ูŠู†.
06:05
These are contested points, and it's impossible to answer them by saying,
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ู‡ุฐู‡ ู†ู‚ุงุท ุฅุฎุชู„ุงูุŒ ูˆู…ุณุชุญูŠู„ ุฃู† ุชุฌูŠุจ ุนู„ูŠู‡ุง ุจุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ุŒ
06:08
"Ah ha, I looked in the right place, and I found out what these concepts mean."
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"ุฃู‡ ู‡ุงุŒ ุฃู†ุง ู†ุธุฑุช ููŠ ุงู„ู…ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุตุญูŠุญุŒ ูˆูˆุฌุฏุช ู…ุนุงู†ูŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ูุงู‡ูŠู…."
06:12
Now, if Islam and democracy are at present
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ูˆู‚ุช ุงู„ุญุงุถุฑ
06:16
in a moment of great confrontation,
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ููŠ ู„ุญุธุฉ ู…ูˆุงุฌู‡ุฉ ุนุธูŠู…ุฉุŒ
06:18
what does that mean?
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ู…ุงุฐุง ูŠุนู†ูŠ ุฐู„ูƒุŸ
06:20
Well, you could fit it into a range of different interpretative frameworks.
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ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ูˆุถุน ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃูุทุฑ ุงู„ุชูุณูŠุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ู…ุฎุชู„ูุฉ.
06:24
You could begin with the one that we began with a couple of days ago,
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ูƒ ุฃู† ุชุจุฏุฃ ุจุชู„ูƒ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุจุฏุฃู†ุงู‡ุง ู‚ุจู„ ุนุฏุฉ ุฃูŠุงู…ุŒ
06:27
which was fear.
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ูƒุงู†ุช ุงู„ุฎูˆู.
06:29
Fear is not an implausible reaction with a war just around the corner
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ุงู„ุฎูˆู ู„ูŠุณ ุฑุฏ ูุนู„ ุบูŠุฑ ู…ุญุชู…ู„ ู…ุน ุญุฑุจ ู‚ุฏ ุชุจุฏุฃ ููŠ ุงู„ุฌูˆุงุฑ
06:34
and with a very, very high likelihood that many, many people are going to die
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ูˆู…ุน ุชุฑุฌูŠุญ ุนุงู„ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ุจุฃู† ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑุŒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุณูŠู…ูˆุชูˆู†
06:37
as a consequence of this confrontation --
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ูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ู„ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ูˆุงุฌู‡ุฉ--
06:39
a confrontation which many, many people
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ุงู„ู…ูˆุงุฌู‡ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑุŒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ
06:41
in the Muslim world do not want,
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ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ ู„ุง ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู†ู‡ุงุŒ
06:43
many, many people in the American democracy do not want,
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ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑุŒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠุฉ ู„ุง ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู†ู‡ุงุŒ
06:46
many people elsewhere in the world do not want,
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ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ุฃู…ุงูƒู† ุฃุฎุฑู‰ ู…ู† ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ู„ุง ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู†ู‡ุงุŒ
06:48
but which nonetheless is favored by a large enough number of people --
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ู„ูƒู†ู‡ุง ู…ุน ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุฎูŠุงุฑ ุงู„ู…ูุถู„ ู„ุนุฏุฏ ูƒุจูŠุฑ ูƒุงู ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุณ --
06:51
at least in the relevant space, which is the United States --
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ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃู‚ู„ ููŠ ุงู„ู…ูƒุงู† ุฐุง ุงู„ุนู„ุงู‚ุฉุŒ ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉ--
06:55
to actually go forward. So fear is not a crazy response at all.
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ู„ู„ู…ุถูŠ ู‚ูุฏู…ุงู‹. ู„ุฐุง ูุงู„ุฎูˆู ู„ูŠุณ ุฅุณุชุฌุงุจุฉ ุบูŠุฑ ุทุจูŠุนูŠุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฅุทู„ุงู‚
06:58
And I think that that's, in fact, probably the first appropriate response.
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู† ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉุŒ ุฑุจู…ุง ุฃูˆู„ ุงุณุชุฌุงุจุฉ ู…ู†ุงุณุจุฉ
07:02
What I want to suggest to you, though, in the next couple of minutes
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ู…ุง ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุฃู† ุฃู‚ุชุฑุญู‡ ุนู„ูŠูƒู…ุŒ ุฑุบู…ุงู‹ ุนู† ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุฏู‚ุงุฆู‚ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฏู…ุฉ
07:05
is that there's also a hopeful response to this.
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ุจุฃู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฑุฏ ูุนู„ ู…ุชูุงุฆู„ ุฃูŠุถุงู‹ ู„ู‡ุฐุง.
07:09
And the hopeful response derives from recognizing
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ูˆุงู„ุฅุณุชุฌุงุจุฉ ุงู„ู…ุชูุงุฆู„ุฉ ุชุจุฏุฃ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฅุนุชุฑุงู
07:12
that Islam and democracy are technologies.
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ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ู‡ู…ุง ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุชุงู†.
07:14
And by virtue of being technologies, they're manipulable.
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ูˆุจุทุจูŠุนุฉ ุฃู†ู‡ู…ุง ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุงุชุŒ ูŠู…ูƒู† ุชุญูˆูŠุฑู‡ู…ุง.
07:17
And they're manipulable in ways
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ูˆูƒู„ุงู‡ู…ุง ุชู‚ุจู„ ุงู„ุชุญูˆูŠุฑ ุจุทุฑู‚
07:19
that can produce some extremely positive outcomes.
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ูŠู…ูƒู†ู‡ุง ุฃู† ุชู‚ุฏู… ู†ุชุงุฆุฌ ุฅูŠุฌุงุจูŠุฉ ู„ู„ุบุงูŠุฉ.
07:21
What do I have in mind?
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ู…ุงุฐุง ูŠุฏูˆุฑ ููŠ ุฐู‡ู†ูŠุŸ
07:23
Well, all over the Muslim world there are people
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ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ููŠ ูƒู„ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฃุดุฎุงุต
07:26
who take Islam deeply seriously, people who care about Islam,
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ูŠุฃุฎุฐูˆู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ู…ุฃุฎุฐ ุงู„ุฌุฏุŒ ู†ุงุณ ูŠู‡ุชู…ูˆู† ุจุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ุŒ
07:30
for whom it's a source either of faith, or of civilization, or of deep values,
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ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ู„ู‡ู… ู‡ูˆ ู…ุตุฏุฑ ู„ู„ุฅูŠู…ุงู†ุŒุฃูˆ ุงู„ุญุถุงุฑุฉุŒ ุฃูˆ ู‚ูŠู… ุนู…ูŠู‚ุฉ
07:34
or just a source of powerful personal identity,
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ุฃูˆ ู…ุฌุฑุฏ ู…ุตุฏุฑ ู„ู„ุนุฒุฉุŒ ูˆุงู„ู‡ูˆูŠุฉ ุงู„ุดุฎุตูŠุฉุŒ
07:36
who think and are saying loudly that Islam and democracy
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู† ูˆูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆู† ุจุตูˆุช ุฌู‡ูŠุฑ ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ
07:40
are in fact not in conflict, but are in fact deeply compatible.
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ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ู„ูŠุณ ููŠ ู…ูˆุงุฌู‡ุฉุŒ ู„ูƒู†ู‡ู… ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ู…ุชูˆุงูู‚ูŠู† ุจุนู…ู‚.
07:44
And these Muslims -- and it's the vast majority of Muslims --
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ูˆู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูˆู†-- ูˆู‡ู… ุฃุบู„ุจูŠุฉ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูˆู†ุŒ
07:47
disagree profoundly with bin Laden's approach, profoundly.
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ูŠุฎุชู„ููˆู† ุจุนู…ู‚ ู…ุน ู…ู†ู‡ุฌ ุจู† ู„ุงุฏู†ุŒ ุจุนู…ู‚.
07:52
And they furthermore think overwhelmingly --
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ูˆุนู„ุงูˆุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ูŠููƒุฑูˆู† ุจุบุงู„ุจูŠุฉ--
07:55
again one can't speak of every person, but overwhelmingly,
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ู…ุฌุฏุฏุงู‹ ู„ุง ูŠุณุชุทูŠุน ุฃุญุฏ ุงู„ุชุญุฏุซ ุจุงุณู… ูƒู„ ุงู„ู†ุงุณุŒ ู„ูƒู† ุงู„ุบุงู„ุจูŠุฉุŒ
07:57
and one can find this by reading any of the sources
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ูˆูŠุณุชุทูŠุน ุงู„ุดุฎุต ู…ุนุฑูุฉ ุฐู„ูƒ ุจู‚ุฑุงุกุฉ ุฃูŠ ู…ู† ุงู„ูƒุชุงุจุงุช
07:59
that they have produced, and they're all over the Internet
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ูƒุชุจูˆู‡ุงุŒ ูˆูƒู„ู‡ุง ู…ุชุงุญุฉ ุนุจุฑ ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฑู†ุช
08:02
and in all sorts of languages -- one can see that they're saying
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ูˆุจูƒู„ ุงู„ู„ุบุงุช-- ูŠู…ูƒู† ู„ู„ุดุฎุต ุฃู† ูŠุฑู‰ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆู†
08:05
that their concern in their own countries is primarily to free up themselves
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ุฃู† ุงู„ู‚ู„ู‚ ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณูŠ ููŠ ุจู„ุฏุงู†ู‡ู… ุฃุณุงุณุงู‹ ููŠ ุญุฑูŠุชู‡ู… ู†ูุณู‡ุง
08:11
to have choice in the spheres of personal life,
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ู„ุญู‚ ุงู„ุฅุฎุชูŠุงุฑ ููŠ ู…ุญูŠุท ุงู„ุญูŠุงุฉ ุงู„ุดุฎุตูŠุฉุŒ
08:15
in the sphere of economics, in the sphere of politics,
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ููŠ ู…ุญูŠุท ุงู„ุฅู‚ุชุตุงุฏุŒ ููŠ ู…ุญูŠุท ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณุฉุŒ
08:18
and, yes, in the sphere of religion,
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ูˆ ู†ุนู…ุŒ ููŠ ู…ุญูŠุท ุงู„ุฏูŠู†
08:20
which is itself closely regulated in most of the Muslim world.
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ุงู„ุฐูŠ ู‡ูˆ ู†ูุณู‡ ู…ู‚ูŠู‘ุฏ ููŠ ู…ุนุธู… ุงู„ุจู„ุฏุงู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉ.
08:23
And many of these Muslims further say
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ูˆูŠุณู‡ุจ ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุฃูƒุซุฑ ุจุงู„ู‚ูˆู„
08:25
that their disagreement with the United States
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ุจุฃู† ุนุฏู… ุฅุชูุงู‚ู‡ู… ู…ุน ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉ
08:28
is that it, in the past and still in the present,
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ููŠ ุฃู†ู‡ุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุณุงุจู‚ ูˆู…ุง ูŠุฒุงู„ ููŠ ุงู„ุญุงุถุฑุŒ
08:31
has sided with autocratic rulers in the Muslim world
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ุณุงู†ุฏุช ุงู„ุญููƒู‘ุงู… ุงู„ู…ุณุชุจุฏูŠู† ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ
08:35
in order to promote America's short-term interests.
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ู…ู† ุฃุฌู„ ุชุนุฒูŠุฒ ู…ุตุงู„ุญ ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒุง ุงู„ู‚ุตูŠุฑุฉ ุงู„ุฃุฌู„.
08:41
Now, during the Cold War, that may have been
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุฎู„ุงู„ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ุจุงุฑุฏุฉุŒ ุฑุจู…ุง ูƒุงู† ู‡ุฐุง
08:43
a defensible position for the United States to take.
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ู…ูˆู‚ู ุฏูุงุนูŠ ุงุชุฎุฐุชู‡ ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉ.
08:45
That's an academic question.
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ุฐู„ูƒ ุณุคุงู„ ุฃูƒุงุฏูŠู…ูŠ.
08:47
It may be that there was a great war to be fought between West and East,
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ุฑุจู…ุง ุฐู„ูƒ ุจูุนู„ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ุถุฎู…ุฉ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุบุฑุจ ูˆุงู„ุดุฑู‚ุŒ
08:50
and it was necessary on the axis of democracy against communism.
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ูˆูƒุงู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุถุฑูˆุฑูŠ ููŠ ู…ุญูˆุฑ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุถุฏ ุงู„ุดูŠูˆุนูŠุฉ.
08:54
And it was necessary in some way for these to contradict each other,
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ูˆูƒุงู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุถุฑูˆุฑูŠ ุจุนุถ ุงู„ุฃุญูŠุงู† ุฃู† ูŠู†ุงู‚ุถุง ุจุนุถู‡ู…ุง ุงู„ุจุนุถุŒ
08:57
and as a consequence you have to make friends wherever you can get them.
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ูˆูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ูŠูƒูˆู† ู„ูƒ ุตุฏุงู‚ุงุช ู…ุชู‰ ู…ุง ูˆุฌุฏุช ูุฑุตุฉ ู„ุฐู„ูƒ.
09:00
But now that the Cold War is over,
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ู„ูƒู† ุงู„ุขู† ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุงู„ุจุงุฑุฏุฉ ุงู†ุชู‡ุชุŒ
09:02
there's nearly universal consensus in the Muslim world --
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ู…ุง ูŠุดุจู‡ ุงู„ุฅุฌู…ุงุน ููŠ ุงู„ุขุฑุงุก ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ--
09:06
and pretty close to the same here in the United States,
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ูˆู…ุง ูŠู‚ุงุฑุจ ุฐู„ูƒ ู‡ู†ุง ููŠ ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉุŒ
09:08
if you talk to people and ask them --
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ุฅุฐุง ุชุญุฏุซุช ู…ุน ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ูˆุณุฃู„ุชู‡ู…ุŒ
09:10
that in principle, there's no reason that democracy and Islam cannot co-exist.
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ุฃู†ู‡ ููŠ ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณุŒ ู„ุง ูŠูˆุฌุฏ ุณุจุจ ู„ุนุฏู… ุชุนุงูŠุด ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ูˆุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู….
09:14
And we see this among activist, practical Muslims,
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ูˆู†ุฑู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ุนุจุฑ ุงู„ู†ุงุดุทูŠู†ุŒ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุงู„ุนู…ู„ูŠู†
09:17
like the Muslims who are presently the elected,
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ู…ุซู„ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ุชู… ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจู‡ู… ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ
09:19
parliamentary, democratic government of Turkey,
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ููŠ ุงู„ุจุฑู„ู…ุงู†ุŒ ููŠ ุญูƒูˆู…ุฉ ุชุฑูƒูŠุง ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉุŒ
09:21
who are behaving pragmatically, not ideologically,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุชุตุฑููˆู† ุจุนู…ู„ูŠุฉุŒ ู„ุง ุจุฃูŠุฏูŠู„ูˆุฌูŠุงุŒ
09:24
who are promoting their own religious values,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุฑูˆุฌูˆู† ู„ู„ู‚ูŠู… ุงู„ุฏูŠู†ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉุŒ
09:26
who are elected by their own people
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ุงู†ุชุฎุจู‡ู… ุดุนุจู‡ู…
09:28
because they were perceived as honest and sincere
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ู„ุฃู†ู‡ู… ูŠุนุชุจุฑูˆุง ุฃู…ู†ุงุก ูˆุตุงุฏู‚ูŠู†
09:30
because of their religious values,
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ุจุณุจุจ ู‚ูŠู…ู‡ู… ุงู„ุฏูŠู†ูŠุฉุŒ
09:32
but who do not think that Islam and a democratic system of governance
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ู„ูƒู† ู…ู† ู„ุง ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู† ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูˆู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ุญูƒู… ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠ
09:36
are fundamentally incompatible.
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ู„ุง ูŠุชูู‚ุงู† ููŠ ุงู„ุฃุณุงุณ
09:38
Now, you may say, but surely, what we've seen on television about Saudi Islam
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุฑุจู…ุง ุชู‚ูˆู„ุŒ ู„ูƒู† ุจุงู„ุชุฃูƒูŠุฏุŒ ู…ุง ุฑุฃูŠู†ุงู‡ ููŠ ุงู„ุชู„ูุฒูŠูˆู† ุนู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ุงู„ุณุนูˆุฏูŠ
09:43
convinces us that it can't possibly be compatible
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ูŠู‚ู†ุนู†ุง ุจุนุฏู… ุฅู…ูƒุงู†ูŠุฉ ุชุนุงูŠุดู‡ู…ุง
09:45
with what we consider the core of democracy --
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ู…ุน ู…ุง ู†ุนุชุจุฑู‡ ุฌูˆู‡ุฑ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉุŒ
09:47
namely, free political choice, basic liberty and basic equality.
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ูˆู‡ูŠุ› ุญุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ุงุฎุชูŠุงุฑ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠุŒ ุฃุณุณ ุงู„ุญุฑูŠุฉ ูˆุฃุณุณ ุงู„ู…ุณุงูˆุงุฉ
09:51
But I'm here to tell you that technologies
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ู„ูƒู† ุฃู†ุง ู‡ู†ุง ู„ุฃุฎุจุฑูƒู… ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุงุช
09:55
are more malleable than that.
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ู…ุฑู†ุฉ ุฃูƒุซุฑ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒ.
09:57
I'm here to tell you that many, many Muslims believe --
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ุฃู†ุง ู‡ู†ุง ู„ุฃุฎุจุฑูƒู…ุŒ ุจุฃู† ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู†--
10:00
the vast majority, in fact -- in fact I think I would go so far as to say
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ุงู„ุฃุบู„ุจูŠุฉ ุงู„ุนุธู…ู‰ุŒ ููŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ-- ุญู‚ูŠู‚ุฉ ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู† ุจูˆุณุนูŠ ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„
10:02
that many Muslims in Saudi Arabia believe that the core values of Islam,
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ุจุฃู† ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ููŠ ุงู„ุณุนูˆุฏูŠุฉ ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู† ุจุฃู† ุฌูˆู‡ุฑ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ุŒ
10:06
namely acknowledgement of God's sovereignty
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ุชุญุฏูŠุฏุงุŒ ุงู„ุฅุนุชุฑุงู ุจุงู„ุนุจูˆุฏูŠุฉ ู„ู„ู‡
10:08
and basic human equality before God,
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ูˆู…ุณุงูˆุงุฉ ุงู„ุจุดุฑ ุฃู…ุงู… ุงู„ู„ู‡ุŒ
10:11
are themselves compatible with liberty, equality and free political choice.
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ู†ูุณู‡ุง ุชุชูˆุงูู‚ ู…ุน ุงู„ุญุฑูŠุฉ ูˆุงู„ู…ุณุงูˆุงุฉ ูˆุญุฑูŠุฉ ุงู„ุงุฎุชูŠุงุฑ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ.
10:15
And there are Muslims, many Muslims out there, who are saying precisely this.
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ูˆู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู†ุŒ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู†ู‡ู…ุŒ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆู† ู‡ุฐุง ุจุงู„ุถุจุท.
10:20
And they're making this argument wherever they're permitted to make it.
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ูˆูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆู† ุขุฑุงุฆู‡ู… ู…ุชู‰ ู…ุง ุงุณุชุทุงุนูˆุง ุฐู„ูƒ.
10:23
But their governments, needless to say, are relatively threatened by this.
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ู„ูƒู† ุญูƒูˆู…ุงุชู‡ู…ุŒ ุบู†ูŠ ุนู† ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ุŒ ู…ู‡ุฏุฏุฉ ุจุฐู„ูƒ ู†ุณุจูŠุงู‹ .
10:25
And for the most part try to stop them from making this argument.
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ูˆููŠ ู…ุนุธู… ุงู„ุฃุญูŠุงู† ุชู…ู†ุนู‡ู… ู…ู† ุชู‚ุฏูŠู… ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุญุฌุฉ.
10:28
So, for example, a group of young activists in Egypt
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ูุนู„ู‰ ุณุจูŠู„ ุงู„ู…ุซุงู„ุŒ ู…ุฌู…ูˆุนุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ุงุดุทูŠู† ุงู„ุดุจุงุจ ููŠ ู…ุตุฑ
10:32
try to form a party known as the Center Party,
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ูŠุญุงูˆู„ูˆู† ุฅู†ุดุงุก ุญุฒุจ ูŠุนูุฑู ุจุญุฒุจ ุงู„ูˆุณุทุŒ
10:34
which advocated the compatibility of Islam and democracy.
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ูˆู‡ูˆ ูŠุฏุนูˆ ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ุชูˆุงูู‚ ู…ุง ุจูŠู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูˆุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ.
10:36
They weren't even allowed to form a party.
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ู„ู… ูŠูุณู…ุญ ู„ู‡ู… ุญุชู‰ ุจุฅู‚ุงู…ุฉ ุงู„ุญุฒุจ.
10:38
They were actually blocked from even forming a party
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ุชู… ู…ู†ุนู‡ู… ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ุญุชู‰ ู…ู† ุชุดูƒูŠู„ ุญุฒุจ
10:40
under the political system there. Why?
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ููŠ ุฅุทุงุฑ ุงู„ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ. ู„ู…ุงุฐุงุŸ
10:42
Because they would have done extraordinarily well.
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ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ูƒุงู† ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ู…ูƒู† ู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ู†ุฌุงุญ ุจุดูƒู„ ุบูŠุฑ ุนุงุฏูŠ
10:44
In the most recent elections in the Muslim world --
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ููŠ ู…ุนุธู… ุงู„ุฅู†ุชุฎุงุจุงุช ุงู„ุฃุฎูŠุฑุฉ ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ--
10:46
which are those in Pakistan, those in Morocco
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ุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃู‚ูŠู…ุช ููŠ ุจุงูƒุณุชุงู†ุŒ ูˆููŠ ุงู„ู…ุบุฑุจ
10:49
and those in Turkey -- in each case,
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ูˆุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃู‚ูŠู…ุช ููŠ ุชุฑูƒูŠุง-- ููŠ ูƒู„ ุญุงู„ุฉุŒ
10:51
people who present themselves to the electorate as Islamic democrats
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ุงู„ุฃุดุฎุงุต ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู‚ุฏู…ูˆุง ุฃู†ูุณู‡ู… ูƒู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠูŠู†
10:54
were far and away the most successful vote-getters
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ูƒุงู†ูˆุง ู‡ู… ุงู„ุฃู†ุฌุญ ููŠ ุญุตุฏ ุงู„ุฃุตูˆุงุช
10:57
every place they were allowed to run freely.
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ููŠ ูƒู„ ู…ูƒุงู† ุณูู…ุญ ู„ู‡ู… ุจุงู„ุชู†ุงูุณ ุจุญุฑูŠุฉ.
11:01
So in Morocco, for example, they finished third in the political race
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ู„ุฐุง ููŠ ุงู„ู…ุบุฑุจุŒ ุนู„ู‰ ุณุจูŠู„ ุงู„ู…ุซุงู„ุŒ ูƒุงู†ูˆุง ุซุงู„ุซ ุฃุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃุตูˆุงุช ููŠ ุงู„ุชู†ุงูุณ ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ
11:05
but they were only allowed to contest half the seats.
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ู„ูƒู† ุณู…ุญ ู„ู‡ู… ุจุงู„ุชู†ุงูุณ ุนู„ู‰ ู†ุตู ู…ู‚ุงุนุฏ ุงู„ุจุฑู„ู…ุงู† ูู‚ุท.
11:07
So had they contested a larger number of the seats,
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ูˆ ู„ูˆ ู†ุงูุณูˆุง ุญูˆู„ ุงู„ู…ุฒูŠุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ู‚ุงุนุฏ
11:09
they would have done even better.
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ู„ูƒุงู† ุฃุฏุงุคู‡ู… ุฃูุถู„ ู…ู† ุฐู„ูƒ.
11:11
Now what I want to suggest to you is that the reason for hope in this case
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ุงู„ุขู† ู…ุง ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุฅู‚ุชุฑุงุญู‡ ู„ูƒู… ู‡ูˆ ุฃู† ุณุจุจ ุงู„ุชูุงุคู„ ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุญุงู„ุฉ
11:14
is that we are on the edge of a real transformation in the Muslim world.
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ุฃู†ู†ุง ุนู„ู‰ ุญุงูุฉ ุงู„ุชุญูˆู‘ู„ ุงู„ุญู‚ูŠู‚ูŠ ููŠ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠ.
11:19
And that's a transformation in which many sincerely believing Muslims --
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ูˆู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุชุญูˆู‘ู„ ุนู†ุฏ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุงู„ู…ุคู…ู†ูŠู† ุจุญู‚ --
11:23
who care very, very deeply about their traditions,
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠู‡ุชู…ูˆู† ุจุดุฏุฉ ู„ุชู‚ุงู„ูŠุฏู‡ู… ุŒ
11:26
who do not want to compromise those values --
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู„ุง ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ุชุณูˆูŠุฉ ุชู„ูƒ ุงู„ู‚ูŠู…--
11:29
believe, through the malleability of the technology of democracy
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ูŠุนุชู‚ุฏูˆู†ุŒ ุนุจุฑ ู…ุฑูˆู†ุฉ ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุฉ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ
11:33
and the malleability and synthetic capability of the technology of Islam,
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ูˆู…ุฑูˆู†ุฉ ูˆู‚ุงุจู„ูŠุฉ ุชุทูˆูŠุน ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุฉุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ุŒ
11:38
that these two ideas can work together.
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ุจุฃู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุฃููƒุงุฑ ูŠู…ูƒู†ู‡ุง ุฃู† ุชุนู…ู„ ู…ุนุงู‹ .
11:41
Now what would that look like?
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ุงู„ุขู† ูƒูŠู ุณูŠูƒูˆู† ุฐู„ูƒุŸ
11:43
What does it mean to say that there's an Islamic democracy?
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ู…ุง ู…ุนู†ู‰ ุฃู† ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ุฃู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉุŸ
11:46
Well, one thing is, it's not going to look identical
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ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุดูŠุก ูˆุงุญุฏุŒ ุฃู†ู‡ุง ู„ู† ุชุจุฏูˆ ู…ุชุทุงุจู‚ุฉ
11:48
to democracy as we know it in the United States.
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ู…ุน ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ู†ุนุฑูู‡ุง ููŠ ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉ.
11:51
That may be a good thing, in light of some of the criticisms we've heard today --
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ุฑุจู…ุง ูŠูƒูˆู† ู‡ุฐุง ุดูŠุฆุงู‹ ุฌูŠุฏุงู‹ุŒ ุนู„ู‰ ุถูˆุก ุจุนุถ ุงู„ุงู†ุชู‚ุงุฏุงุช ุงู„ุชูŠ ุณู…ุนู†ุงู‡ุง ุงู„ูŠูˆู…ุŒ
11:54
for example, in the regulatory context -- of what democracy produces.
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ุนู„ู‰ ุณุจูŠู„ ุงู„ู…ุซุงู„ุŒ ููŠ ุณูŠุงู‚ ุงู„ุชุดุฑูŠุนุงุช ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชู†ุชุฌู‡ุง ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ.
11:58
It will also not look exactly the way either the people in this room,
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ู„ู† ุชุจุฏูˆ ุฃูŠุถุงู‹ ู…ู…ุงุซู„ุฉ ู„ู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠู†ุธุฑ ุจู‡ุง ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู‚ุงุนุฉุŒ
12:02
or Muslims out in the rest of the world --
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ุฃูˆ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ููŠ ุจู‚ูŠุฉ ุฃู†ุญุงุก ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…--
12:04
I don't mean to imply there aren't Muslims here, there probably are --
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ุฃู†ุง ู„ุง ุฃุนู†ูŠ ุนุฏู… ูˆุฌูˆุฏ ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ู‡ู†ุงุŒ ู‚ุฏ ูŠูƒูˆู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ--
12:07
conceptualize Islam.
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ูŠูู‡ู…ูˆู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู….
12:09
It will be transformative of Islam as well.
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ุณูŠูƒูˆู† ู…ู† ุชูŠุงุฑุงุช ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ุฃูŠุถุงู‹.
12:12
And as a result of this convergence,
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ูˆูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ู„ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุชู‚ุงุฑุจุŒ
12:15
this synthetic attempt to make sense of these two ideas together,
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ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ุญุงูˆู„ุฉ ุงู„ู…ุตุทู†ุนุฉ ู„ูู‡ู… ุงู„ููƒุฑุชูŠู† ู…ุนุงู‹ุŒ
12:19
there's a real possibility that, instead of a clash
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฅู…ูƒุงู†ูŠุฉ ุญู‚ูŠู‚ูŠุฉ ุจุฃู†ุŒ ุจุฏู„ุงู‹ ู…ู† ุงู„ุตุฏุงู…
12:22
of Islamic civilization -- if there is such a thing --
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ู„ู„ุญุถุงุฑุฉ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉ-- ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุดูŠุก ู…ู† ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู‚ุจูŠู„--
12:25
and democratic civilization -- if there is such a thing --
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ูˆุงู„ุญุถุงุฑุฉ ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ--ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุดุฆ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู‚ุจูŠู„--
12:27
we'll in fact have close compatibility.
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ููŠ ุงู„ูˆุงู‚ุน ุณูŠูƒูˆู†ุงู† ุดุฏูŠุฏุง ุงู„ุชูˆุงูู‚
12:30
Now, I began with the war because it's the elephant in the room,
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ุงู„ุขู†ุŒ ุฃู†ุง ุจุฏุฃุช ุจุงู„ุญุฑุจ ู„ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุงู„ููŠู„ ููŠ ุงู„ู‚ุงุนุฉุŒ
12:34
and you can't pretend that there isn't about to be a war
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ูˆู„ุง ูŠู…ูƒู†ู†ุง ุฅุฏุนุงุก ุฃู†ู‡ ู„ุง ุชูˆุฌุฏ ุญุฑุจ ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุดูƒ ุงู„ุงู†ุฏู„ุงุน
12:36
if you're talking about these issues.
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ุฅุฐุง ูƒู†ุช ุชุชุญุฏุซ ุนู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู‚ุถุงูŠุง.
12:38
The war has tremendous risks for the model that I'm describing
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ู…ุฎุงุทุฑ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ู‡ุงุฆู„ุฉ ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ู„ู„ู†ู…ูˆุฐุฌ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุฃุดุฑุญู‡
12:41
because it's very possible that as a consequence of a war,
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ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ู…ูƒู† ุฌุฏุงู‹ ูƒู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ ู„ู„ุญุฑุจุŒ
12:44
many Muslims will conclude that the United States
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ุฃู† ูŠุณุชู†ุชุฌ ุงู„ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุจุฃู† ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉ
12:47
is not the kind of place that they want to emulate
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ู„ูŠุณุช ู…ู† ุงู„ู†ู…ุงุฐุฌ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠุฑูŠุฏูˆู† ู…ุญุงูƒุงุชู‡ุง
12:49
with respect to its forms of political government.
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ููŠู…ุง ูŠุชุนู„ู‚ ุจุดูƒู„ ู†ุธุงู… ุงู„ุญูƒู… ุงู„ุณูŠุงุณูŠ
12:52
On the other hand, there's a further possibility that many Americans,
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ููŠ ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑุŒ ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฅู…ูƒุงู†ูŠุฉ ุฃุฎุฑู‰ ุจุฃู† ูƒุซูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃู…ุฑูŠูƒูŠูŠู†ุŒ
12:55
swept up in the fever of a war, will say, and feel, and think
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ุฅุฌุชุญุงุชู‡ู… ุญู…ู‰ ุงู„ุญุฑุจุŒ ุณูŠู‚ูˆู„ูˆู†ุŒ ูˆูŠุดุนุฑูˆู†ุŒ ูˆูŠููƒุฑูˆู†
13:00
that Islam is the enemy somehow --
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ุจุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุนุฏูˆ ุจุดูƒู„ ู…ุง--
13:02
that Islam ought to be construed as the enemy.
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ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ูŠููุณู‘ุฑ ุจุฃู†ู‡ ุงู„ุนุฏูˆ.
13:05
And even though, for political tactical reasons,
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ูˆุฑุบู…ุงู‹ ุนู† ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ู„ุฃุณุจุงุจ ุณูŠุงุณูŠุฉ ุชูƒุชูŠูƒูŠุฉุŒ
13:07
the president has been very, very good about saying that Islam is not the enemy,
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ูƒุงู† ุงู„ุฑุฆูŠุณ ุฌูŠุฏ ุŒ ุฌูŠุฏ ุฌุฏุงู‹ ุนู†ุฏู…ุง ู‚ุงู„ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู… ู„ูŠุณ ุงู„ุนุฏูˆุŒ
13:11
nonetheless, there's a natural impulse when one enters war
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ูˆู…ุน ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ู…ู† ุงู„ุทุจูŠุนูŠ ุฃู† ุชู†ุฏูุน ู…ุฑุฉ ูˆุงุญุฏุฉ ุนู†ุฏ ุฏุฎูˆู„ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ
13:14
to think of the other side as an enemy.
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ู„ุชููƒุฑ ููŠ ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑ ูƒุนุฏูˆ.
13:16
And one furthermore has the impulse to generalize, as much as possible,
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ูˆ ุงู„ุดุฎุต ุจุงู„ุฅุถุงูุฉ ุฅู„ู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ู„ุฏูŠู‡ ุงู„ุฏุงูุน ู„ู„ุชุนู…ูŠู…ุŒ ุจูƒู„ ู…ุง ุฃู…ูƒู†ุŒ
13:19
in defining who that enemy is.
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ููŠ ุชุญุฏูŠุฏ ู…ู† ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุนุฏูˆ.
13:21
So the risks are very great.
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ู„ุฐุง ูุงู„ู…ุฎุงุทุฑ ุนุธูŠู…ุฉ ุฌุฏุงู‹.
13:23
On the other hand, the capacities for positive results in the aftermath of a war
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ููŠ ุงู„ุฌุงู†ุจ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑุŒ ุงู„ู‚ุฏุฑุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ุชุญู‚ูŠู‚ ู†ุชุงุฆุฌ ุฅูŠุฌุงุจูŠุฉ ุจุนุฏ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ
13:30
are also not to be underestimated,
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ู„ุง ูŠู†ุจุบูŠ ุงู„ุชู‚ู„ูŠู„ ู…ู† ุดุฃู†ู‡ุง ุฃูŠุถุงู‹ุŒ
13:32
even by, and I would say especially by, people
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ุญุชู‰ุŒ ุฃู†ู†ูŠ ุฃุฑูŠุฏ ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ ุฎุตูˆุตุงู‹ ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ
13:35
who are deeply skeptical about whether we should go to war in the first place.
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ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ู„ุฏูŠู‡ู… ุดูƒูˆูƒ ุญูˆู„ ู‡ู„ ูŠุฌุจ ุฃู† ู†ุฐู‡ุจ ุงู„ู‰ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ุฃุตู„ุง
13:38
Those who oppose the war ought to realize that if a war happens,
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ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ูŠุนุงุฑุถูˆู† ุงู„ุญุฑุจุŒ ูŠุฏุฑูƒูˆู† ุฃู†ู‡ ููŠ ุญุงู„ ูˆู‚ูˆุน ุงู„ุญุฑุจุŒ
13:43
it cannot be the right strategy,
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ู„ู† ุชูƒูˆู† ุงู„ุงุณุชุฑุงุชูŠุฌูŠุฉ ุงู„ุตุญูŠุญุฉุŒ
13:45
either pragmatically, or spiritually, or morally, to say after the war,
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ุฅู…ู‘ุง ูˆุงู‚ุนูŠุงู‹ุŒ ุฃูˆ ุฑูˆุญูŠุงู‹ุŒ ุฃูˆ ุฃุฎู„ุงู‚ูŠุงู‹ุŒ ู„ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ุจุนุฏ ุงู„ุญุฑุจุŒ
13:51
"Well, let's let it all run itself out, and play out however it wants to play out,
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"ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ู„ู†ุชุชุฑูƒู‡ุง ุชูุณุชู†ูุฏ ูƒู…ุง ุชุดุงุก
13:54
because we opposed the war in the first place."
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ู„ุฃู†ู†ุง ุนุงุฑุถู†ุง ุงู„ุญุฑุจ ู…ู†ุฐ ุงู„ุจุฏุงูŠุฉ."
13:56
That's not the way human circumstances operate.
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ู‡ุฐู‡ ู„ูŠุณุช ุงู„ุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุนู…ู„ ุจู‡ุง ุงู„ุธุฑูˆู ุงู„ุฅู†ุณุงู†ูŠุฉ.
13:58
You face the circumstances you have in front of you
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ุชูˆุงุฌู‡ ุงู„ุธุฑูˆู ุงู„ู…ุงุซู„ุฉ ุฃู…ุงู…ูƒ
14:00
and you go forward.
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ูˆุชู…ุถูŠ ู‚ุฏู…ุงู‹.
14:02
Well, what I'm here to say then is,
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ุญุณู†ุงู‹ุŒ ู…ุง ุฌุฆุช ู„ุฃุฎุจุฑูƒู… ุจู‡ ุฅุฐู† ู‡ูˆุŒ
14:04
for people who are skeptical about the war,
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ุฃู† ู„ู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู„ู…ุชุดูƒูƒูŠู† ููŠ ุงู„ุญุฑุจุŒ
14:06
it's especially important to recognize that in the aftermath of the war
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ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ู‡ู… ุฃู† ู†ุนุชุฑู ุจุฃู†ู‡ ุนู‚ุจ ุงู„ุญุฑุจ
14:09
there is a possibility for the government of the United States
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ู‡ู†ุงูƒ ุฅู…ูƒุงู†ูŠุฉ ู„ุญูƒูˆู…ุฉ ุงู„ูˆู„ุงูŠุงุช ุงู„ู…ุชุญุฏุฉ
14:13
and the Muslim peoples with whom it interacts
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ูˆุงู„ุดุนูˆุจ ุงู„ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุชูุงุนู„ ู…ุนู‡ุง
14:16
to create real forms of government that are truly democratic
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ู„ุตู†ุน ุดูƒู„ ุญู‚ูŠู‚ูŠ ู„ุญูƒูˆู…ุฉ ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉ ุจุญู‚
14:19
and also truly Islamic.
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ูˆุฃูŠุถุงู‹ ุฅุณู„ุงู…ูŠุฉ ุจุญู‚
14:21
And it is crucial -- it is crucial in a practical, activist way --
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ูˆ ู…ู† ุงู„ุจุงู„ุบ ู„ู„ุฃู‡ู…ูŠุฉุŒ ุจุทุฑูŠู‚ุฉ ุนู…ู„ูŠุฉ ูˆ ู†ุงุดุทุฉุŒ
14:25
for people who care about these issues to make sure
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ุจุงู„ู†ุณุจุฉ ู„ู„ุฃุดุฎุงุต ุงู„ู…ู‡ุชู…ูŠู† ุจุงู„ู‚ุถุงูŠุง ู„ู„ุชุฃูƒุฏ
14:29
that within the technology of democracy, in this system,
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ุฃู† ุฏุงุฎู„ ุฅุทุงุฑ ุชูƒู†ูˆู„ูˆุฌูŠุง ุงู„ุฏูŠู…ูˆู‚ุฑุงุทูŠุฉุŒ ููŠ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู†ุธุงู…ุŒ
14:32
they exercise their preferences, their choices and their voices
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ูŠู…ุงุฑุณูˆู† ู…ุง ูŠูุถู„ูˆู† ุŒ ุฎูŠุงุฑุงุชู‡ู… ูˆุฃุตูˆุงุชู‡ู…
14:35
to encourage that outcome.
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ู„ุชุดุฌูŠุน ุชู„ูƒ ุงู„ู†ุชูŠุฌุฉ.
14:37
That's a hopeful message,
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ู‡ุฐู‡ ุฑุณุงู„ุฉ ู…ูุนู…ุฉ ุจุงู„ุฃู…ู„ุŒ
14:39
but it's a message that's hopeful only if you understand it
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ู„ูƒู†ู‡ุง ุฑุณุงู„ุฉ ุขู…ู„ุฉ ูู‚ุท ุฅุฐุง ูู‡ู…ู†ุงู‡ุง
14:41
as incurring serious obligation for all of us.
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ูƒุชุญู…ู„ู†ุง ู„ู…ุณุฆูˆู„ูŠุฉ ุฎุทูŠุฑุฉ ู„ู†ุง ุฌู…ูŠุนุงู‹.
14:44
And I think that we are capable of taking on that obligation,
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ูˆุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุจุฃู†ู†ุง ู‚ุงุฏุฑูˆู† ุนู„ู‰ ุชุญู…ู‘ู„ ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุฅู„ุชุฒุงู…ุŒ
14:47
but only if we put what we can into it.
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ู„ูƒู† ูู‚ุท ุฅุฐุง ุณุฎู‘ุฑู†ุง ู…ุง ุจุงุณุชุทุงุนุชู†ุง.
14:50
And if we do, then I don't think that the hope will be unwarranted altogether.
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ูˆุงุฐุง ูุนู„ู†ุง ุฐู„ูƒุŒ ู„ุง ุฃุนุชู‚ุฏ ุฃู† ุงู„ุฃู…ู„ ู„ุง ู…ุจุฑุฑ ู„ู‡ ุชู…ุงู…ุงู‹.
14:54
Thanks.
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ุดูƒุฑุงู‹.
ุญูˆู„ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ูˆู‚ุน

ุณูŠู‚ุฏู… ู„ูƒ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ู…ูˆู‚ุน ู…ู‚ุงุทุน ููŠุฏูŠูˆ YouTube ุงู„ู…ููŠุฏุฉ ู„ุชุนู„ู… ุงู„ู„ุบุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ. ุณุชุฑู‰ ุฏุฑูˆุณ ุงู„ู„ุบุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ ุงู„ุชูŠ ูŠุชู… ุชุฏุฑูŠุณู‡ุง ู…ู† ู‚ุจู„ ู…ุฏุฑุณูŠู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุฏุฑุฌุฉ ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ู‰ ู…ู† ุฌู…ูŠุน ุฃู†ุญุงุก ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…. ุงู†ู‚ุฑ ู†ู‚ุฑู‹ุง ู…ุฒุฏูˆุฌู‹ุง ููˆู‚ ุงู„ุชุฑุฌู…ุฉ ุงู„ุฅู†ุฌู„ูŠุฒูŠุฉ ุงู„ู…ุนุฑูˆุถุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ูƒู„ ุตูุญุฉ ููŠุฏูŠูˆ ู„ุชุดุบูŠู„ ุงู„ููŠุฏูŠูˆ ู…ู† ู‡ู†ุงูƒ. ูŠุชู… ุชู…ุฑูŠุฑ ุงู„ุชุฑุฌู…ุงุช ุจุงู„ุชุฒุงู…ู† ู…ุน ุชุดุบูŠู„ ุงู„ููŠุฏูŠูˆ. ุฅุฐุง ูƒุงู† ู„ุฏูŠูƒ ุฃูŠ ุชุนู„ูŠู‚ุงุช ุฃูˆ ุทู„ุจุงุช ุŒ ูŠุฑุฌู‰ ุงู„ุงุชุตุงู„ ุจู†ุง ุจุงุณุชุฎุฏุงู… ู†ู…ูˆุฐุฌ ุงู„ุงุชุตุงู„ ู‡ุฐุง.

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