Steve Ramirez and Xu Liu: A mouse. A laser beam. A manipulated memory.
137,963 views ・ 2013-08-15
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譯者: Shengwei Cai
審譯者: Jessie Lee
00:12
Steve Ramirez: My first
year of grad school,
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斯蒂夫:我讀研究所第一年的時候
我發現我會在臥室裡
00:14
I found myself in my bedroom
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00:15
eating lots of Ben & Jerry's
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大吃冰淇淋
00:18
watching some trashy TV
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看些沒營養的電視節目
00:19
and maybe, maybe listening
to Taylor Swift.
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而且也許,也許還會聽聽泰勒絲的歌
00:23
I had just gone through a breakup.
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那時我剛失戀
00:24
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
00:26
So for the longest time, all I would do
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大部分的時間裡我唯一做的事
00:28
is recall the memory of this
person over and over again,
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就是再三回憶與她的美好過往
00:32
wishing that I could get
rid of that gut-wrenching,
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希望可以擺脫那種撕心裂肺的痛楚
00:34
visceral "blah" feeling.
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希望可以擺脫那種撕心裂肺的痛楚
00:37
Now, as it turns out,
I'm a neuroscientist,
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後來我成為一名神經學家
00:39
so I knew that the memory of that person
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所以我清楚關於那人的回憶
00:42
and the awful, emotional undertones
that color in that memory,
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和其中隱含的糟糕又情緒化的部分
00:45
are largely mediated
by separate brain systems.
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受大腦中不同系統的影響很大
00:47
And so I thought, what if we could
go into the brain
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所以我想,要是我們能夠進入腦部
00:50
and edit out that nauseating feeling
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刪除那些難受的情緒
00:52
but while keeping the memory
of that person intact?
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同時又保留關於那人的完整記憶,不是很好嗎?
00:55
Then I realized, maybe
that's a little bit lofty for now.
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後來我明瞭,也許這對現今而言是有點遙不可及
00:57
So what if we could start
off by going into the brain
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要是我們可以從進入大腦裡
01:00
and just finding a single
memory to begin with?
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先找到一段記憶作為開始呢?
01:03
Could we jump-start
that memory back to life,
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我們能再啟動那段記憶讓它起死回生、
01:05
maybe even play with the contents
of that memory?
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甚至玩弄那段記憶的內容嗎?
01:09
All that said, there is one person
in the entire world right now
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即便如此,我仍強烈希望她現在沒有看這個演講
01:11
that I really hope is not
watching this talk.
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即便如此,我仍強烈希望她現在沒有看這個演講
01:13
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:17
So there is a catch. There is a catch.
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還有一個問題,棘手的問題
01:20
These ideas probably remind
you of "Total Recall,"
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這些想法可能會讓你聯想到《攔截記憶碼》
01:23
"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,"
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《王牌冤家》
01:25
or of "Inception."
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或者《全面啟動》
01:27
But the movie stars that we work with
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但是和我們共事的電影明星
01:28
are the celebrities of the lab.
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可是實驗室的名人啊
01:30
Xu Liu: Test mice.
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劉旭:實驗鼠
01:32
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:33
As neuroscientists, we work
in the lab with mice
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作為神經學家,我們在實驗室用老鼠做實驗
01:36
trying to understand how memory works.
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為了了解記憶是如何運作的
01:40
And today, we hope
to convince you that now
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今天,我希望說服你們
01:42
we are actually able to activate
a memory in the brain
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我們現在能以光速啟動大腦裡的記憶
01:45
at the speed of light.
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我們現在能以光速啟動大腦裡的記憶
01:48
To do this, there's only two simple
steps to follow.
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要做到這點,只需兩個簡單的步驟
01:51
First, you find and label
a memory in the brain,
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首先,在大腦裡找到一段記憶並將其標記
01:54
and then you activate it with a switch.
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然後,用開關啟動它
01:58
As simple as that.
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就這麼簡單
01:59
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
02:01
SR: Are you convinced?
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斯蒂夫:你們被說服了嗎?
02:03
So, turns out finding a memory
in the brain isn't all that easy.
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其實,要在大腦裡找到一段記憶沒那麼容易
02:07
XL: Indeed. This is way more
difficult than, let's say,
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劉旭:的確,這可是比在乾草堆裡找針難多了
02:09
finding a needle in a haystack,
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劉旭:的確,這可是比在乾草堆裡找針難多了
02:12
because at least, you know,
the needle is still something
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因為至少,你還能用手抓住那根針
因為至少,你還能用手抓住那根針
02:15
you can physically put your fingers on.
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02:17
But memory is not.
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但記憶卻不行
02:19
And also, there's way
more cells in your brain
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而且腦細胞的數量遠勝於
02:22
than the number of straws
in a typical haystack.
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乾草堆裡稻草的數量
02:27
So yeah, this task does
seem to be daunting.
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所以說,這個工作看來真令人卻步
02:30
But luckily, we got help
from the brain itself.
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但幸運的是,大腦給了我們幫助
02:34
It turned out that all we need
to do is basically
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事實證明,我們需要做的
02:36
to let the brain form a memory,
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只是讓大腦形成一段記憶
02:38
and then the brain will tell
us which cells are involved
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然後大腦就會告訴我們哪些細胞
02:42
in that particular memory.
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和那段記憶有關
02:44
SR: So what was going on in my brain
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斯蒂夫:當回憶前任女友的時候
02:46
while I was recalling the memory of an ex?
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我的大腦是什麼狀況呢?
02:48
If you were to just completely
ignore human ethics for a second
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假設你們現在暫且完全無視道德倫常
02:51
and slice up my brain right now,
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把我的大腦切片
02:52
you would see that there
was an amazing number
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你們會發現當我回憶她的時候
02:54
of brain regions that were active
while recalling that memory.
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大腦的活躍區域數量之驚人
02:57
Now one brain region
that would be robustly active
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有一個極其活躍的大腦區域
03:00
in particular is called the hippocampus,
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叫做海馬體
03:02
which for decades has
been implicated in processing
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數十年來它一直被視為
處理跟我們所珍視的
與親愛的記憶相關的器官
03:05
the kinds of memories
that we hold near and dear,
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03:07
which also makes it
an ideal target to go into
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它也成為我們試圖尋找、
03:10
and to try and find and maybe
reactivate a memory.
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甚至重新啟動某一段記憶的理想目標
03:13
XL: When you zoom in into the hippocampus,
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劉旭:當把海馬體放大
03:15
of course you will see lots of cells,
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你肯定會看到很多細胞
03:17
but we are able to find
which cells are involved
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但我們可以找到與某段記憶相關的細胞
03:20
in a particular memory,
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但我們可以找到與某段記憶相關的細胞
03:22
because whenever a cell is active,
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因為,當一個細胞呈現活躍的狀態
03:24
like when it's forming a memory,
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例如一段記憶形成時
03:26
it will also leave a footprint
that will later allow us to know
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它也會留下一道印記,好讓我們知道
03:30
these cells are recently active.
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這些細胞最近是活躍的
03:32
SR: So the same way
that building lights at night
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斯蒂夫:同樣地,晚上大樓有燈亮著時
03:35
let you know that somebody's probably
working there at any given moment,
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你會知道當時應該有人還在那兒工作
確切地說,生物傳感器
03:38
in a very real sense, there
are biological sensors
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03:41
within a cell that are turned on
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當一個細胞在工作的時候
03:43
only when that cell was just working.
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就會開啟
03:45
They're sort of biological
windows that light up
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它們有點像一個亮著的生物窗
03:47
to let us know that that cell
was just active.
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讓我們知道這個細胞是活躍的
03:49
XL: So we clipped part of this sensor,
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劉旭:於是我們剪下部分的傳感器
03:51
and attached that to a switch
to control the cells,
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把它粘在細胞的開關上來控制細胞
03:55
and we packed this switch
into an engineered virus
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然後把這個開關塞進一個工程病毒裡
03:59
and injected that into the brain
of the mice.
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再注入老鼠的大腦
04:01
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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所以,每當一段記憶形成時
04:04
any active cells for that memory
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任何相關的活躍細胞
04:06
will also have this switch installed.
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都會安裝上這個開關
04:09
SR: So here is what the hippocampus
looks like
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斯蒂夫:比如說,這就是海馬體
形成一段恐懼記憶後的樣子
04:11
after forming a fear memory, for example.
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04:13
The sea of blue that you see here
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你看到的藍色部份
04:15
are densely packed brain cells,
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就是密集的腦細胞
04:17
but the green brain cells,
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而這些綠色的腦細胞呢
04:19
the green brain cells
are the ones that are holding on
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綠色細胞就是與那段特定的恐懼記憶
緊密連結的細胞
04:22
to a specific fear memory.
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04:23
So you are looking at the crystallization
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你們看到的,就是那結晶體
04:25
of the fleeting formation of fear.
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瞬間形成的恐懼結晶體
04:27
You're actually looking
at the cross-section of a memory right now.
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此刻你們看到的
其實是一段記憶的橫截面
04:31
XL: Now, for the switch
we have been talking about,
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劉旭:現在,談談我們剛才提到的開關
04:33
ideally, the switch has
to act really fast.
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理想狀態下,它必須運作得非常快
04:36
It shouldn't take minutes
or hours to work.
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幾分鐘或幾小時都太久了
04:39
It should act at the speed
of the brain, in milliseconds.
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它應以大腦的速度運作,以毫秒為單位
04:43
SR: So what do you think, Xu?
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斯蒂夫:你怎麼看呢,阿旭?
04:44
Could we use, let's say,
pharmacological drugs
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我們能不能用像是... 藥
04:47
to activate or inactivate brain cells?
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用藥來啟動或靜止腦細胞?
04:49
XL: Nah. Drugs are pretty messy.
They spread everywhere.
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劉旭:算了吧,用藥太麻煩了,搞得到處都是
04:53
And also it takes them
forever to act on cells.
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而且要對腦細胞起作用也太久了
04:56
So it will not allow us
to control a memory in real time.
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我們不可能透過藥來及時控制記憶
05:00
So Steve, how about let's zap
the brain with electricity?
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斯蒂夫,我們電擊大腦怎麼樣?
05:04
SR: So electricity is pretty fast,
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斯蒂夫:電的速度也挺快的
05:06
but we probably wouldn't
be able to target it
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但是我們不太可能只擊中
05:08
to just the specific cells
that hold onto a memory,
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那些正好與某段記憶密切相關的細胞
05:10
and we'd probably fry the brain.
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而且我們還可能把大腦給電糊了
05:12
XL: Oh. That's true.
So it looks like, hmm,
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劉旭:那倒是啊!嗯,那看來
05:15
indeed we need to find a better way
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我們的確需要更好的方法
05:18
to impact the brain at the speed of light.
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以光速來影響大腦
05:21
SR: So it just so happens that light
travels at the speed of light.
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斯蒂夫:恰巧,光是以光速行進的
05:26
So maybe we could activate
or inactive memories
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若我們要啟動或靜止記憶
05:30
by just using light --
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光也許可以派上用場
05:31
XL: That's pretty fast.
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劉旭:它的確很快
05:33
SR: -- and because normally brain cells
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斯蒂夫:而且,正常情況下腦細胞
05:35
don't respond to pulses of light,
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對光脈衝沒反應
05:36
so those that would respond
to pulses of light
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所以,那些對光脈衝有反應的細胞
05:38
are those that contain
a light-sensitive switch.
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就是安裝了光感開關的細胞
05:41
Now to do that, first we need
to trick brain cells
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要做到這個,我們先要哄騙腦細胞
05:43
to respond to laser beams.
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讓它們對雷射光有反應
05:44
XL: Yep. You heard it right.
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劉旭:對,你們沒聽錯
05:45
We are trying to shoot
lasers into the brain.
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我們要把雷射光射入大腦
05:47
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
05:49
SR: And the technique that lets
us do that is optogenetics.
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斯蒂夫:光基因技術使之成為可能
05:52
Optogenetics gave us this
light switch that we can use
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我們可以使用光基因技術的光開關
05:56
to turn brain cells on or off,
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來啟動或靜止腦細胞
05:57
and the name of that switch
is channelrhodopsin,
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這個開關的名字就叫「通道視紫紅質」
(譯註︰又稱「光敏感通道」)
06:00
seen here as these green dots
attached to this brain cell.
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就是這些附在這個細胞上的綠點
06:02
You can think of channelrhodopsin
as a sort of light-sensitive switch
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你們可以把通道視紫紅質視為一種光感開關
06:05
that can be artificially
installed in brain cells
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它可以以人工的方式安裝在腦細胞上
06:08
so that now we can use that switch
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所以我們可以透過
06:10
to activate or inactivate the brain
cell simply by clicking it,
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簡單地按下開關來啟動或靜止腦細胞
06:13
and in this case we click
it on with pulses of light.
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這裡呢,我們用光脈衝來開啟它
06:15
XL: So we attach this light-sensitive
switch of channelrhodopsin
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劉旭:於是我們把通道視紫紅質光感開關粘到
06:19
to the sensor we've been talking about
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剛才提到的傳感器上
06:21
and inject this into the brain.
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然後將其注入大腦
06:24
So whenever a memory is being formed,
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所以,每當一段記憶形成時
06:27
any active cell for that particular memory
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所有與那段記憶相關的活躍細胞
06:29
will also have this light-sensitive
switch installed in it
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都會被安裝上這個光感開關
06:33
so that we can control these cells
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以便我們透過輕擊雷射開關
06:35
by the flipping of a laser
just like this one you see.
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來控制這些細胞,就像你們看到的這樣
06:39
SR: So let's put all of this
to the test now.
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斯蒂夫:現在讓我們對這些進行測試
06:42
What we can do is we can take our mice
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我們能做的就是把老鼠
06:44
and then we can put them in a box
that looks exactly like this box here,
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放進這樣的一個盒子裡
06:47
and then we can give them
a very mild foot shock
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輕微地電擊牠們的足部
06:50
so that they form a fear
memory of this box.
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牠們對這個盒子便形成恐懼記憶
06:52
They learn that something
bad happened here.
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牠們記得在這裡發生過不好的事
06:54
Now with our system,
the cells that are active
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現在,透過我們的系統
06:56
in the hippocampus
in the making of this memory,
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這些在海馬體內活躍的細胞正形成記憶
06:59
only those cells will now
contain channelrhodopsin.
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只有那些細胞才含有通道視紫紅質
07:02
XL: When you are as small as a mouse,
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劉旭:如果你像老鼠一樣小
07:05
it feels as if the whole
world is trying to get you.
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你會覺得全世界都想抓住你
07:08
So your best response of defense
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所以你最好的防禦反應
07:10
is trying to be undetected.
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就是盡量不被發現
07:13
Whenever a mouse is in fear,
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當老鼠恐懼的時候
07:15
it will show this very typical behavior
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就會表現出這種典型的行為
縮在盒子角落,一動也不動
07:17
by staying at one corner of the box,
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07:18
trying to not move any part of its body,
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縮在盒子角落,一動也不動
07:21
and this posture is called freezing.
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這個姿勢叫做「行為凍結」
07:24
So if a mouse remembers that something
bad happened in this box,
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所以如果老鼠記得
在這個盒子裡發生過不好的事
07:29
and when we put them
back into the same box,
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當我們把牠們放回同一個盒子裡時
07:31
it will basically show freezing
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就會表現出「行為凍結」
07:33
because it doesn't want to be detected
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因為牠不想被盒子裡
07:35
by any potential threats in this box.
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任何對牠構成威脅的物體發現
07:38
SR: So you can think of freezing as,
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斯蒂夫:你們可以把「行為凍結」看作
07:40
you're walking down the street
minding your own business,
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當你自顧自的走在街上
07:42
and then out of nowhere
you almost run into
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突如其來你差點
撞見前女友或前男友
07:44
an ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend,
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07:46
and now those terrifying two seconds
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在那恐怖的兩秒間隔裡
07:48
where you start thinking, "What do I do?
Do I say hi?
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你會想︰「我該怎麼辦?要問好嗎?
07:50
Do I shake their hand? Do
I turn around and run away?
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要跟他們握手嗎?我該轉身跑掉嗎?
07:51
Do I sit here and pretend
like I don't exist?"
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我該待在原地假裝我不存在嗎?」
07:53
Those kinds of fleeting thoughts
that physically incapacitate you,
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那些閃念就會讓你的行為木訥
07:56
that temporarily give you
that deer-in-headlights look.
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會讓你當下看起來不知所措一臉茫然
07:59
XL: However, if you put the mouse
in a completely different
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然而,如果你把這隻老鼠放到
08:02
new box, like the next one,
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一個全然不同的新盒子裡,比如這個
08:05
it will not be afraid of this box
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牠就不會害怕這個盒子
08:08
because there's no reason that it
will be afraid of this new environment.
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因為牠沒理由害怕這個新環境
08:12
But what if we put
the mouse in this new box
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但是,若我們把這隻老鼠放到新盒子裡
08:15
but at the same time,
we activate the fear memory
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而且同時用雷射啟動牠的恐懼記憶呢?
08:19
using lasers just like we did before?
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就像剛才那樣
08:22
Are we going to bring back the fear memory
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我們能把第一個盒子裡的恐懼記憶
08:25
for the first box into this
completely new environment?
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帶到這個新環境嗎?
08:29
SR: All right,
and here's the million-dollar experiment.
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斯蒂夫:好,這就是那個寶貴的實驗
08:31
Now to bring back to life
the memory of that day,
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現在,把那天的記憶復甦吧
08:34
I remember that the Red Sox had just won,
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我記得紅襪隊剛贏了比賽
08:36
it was a green spring day,
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一個綠意盎然的春日
08:38
perfect for going up and down the river
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正適合去溯溪
08:40
and then maybe going to the North End
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也許再去北城
08:43
to get some cannolis, #justsaying.
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買些奶酪卷,隨便說說而已
08:45
Now Xu and I, on the other hand,
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而阿旭和我呢
08:48
were in a completely windowless black room
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則在一個無窗的黑暗房間裡
08:51
not making any ocular movement
that even remotely resembles an eye blink
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目不轉睛連眨眼都沒有
08:54
because our eyes were fixed
onto a computer screen.
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因為我們的目光都聚焦在電腦螢幕上
08:57
We were looking at this mouse
here trying to activate a memory
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我們正盯著這隻老鼠
首次試著用我們的技術去啟動牠的記憶
09:00
for the first time using our technique.
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劉旭:然後我們就看到了這個
09:02
XL: And this is what we saw.
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09:04
When we first put the mouse into this box,
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當我們第一次把老鼠放進盒子裡
09:06
it's exploring, sniffing
around, walking around,
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牠在熟悉環境、四處嗅嗅、到處走動
09:09
minding its own business,
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專注著自己的事
09:11
because actually by nature,
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因為天性使然
09:13
mice are pretty curious animals.
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老鼠的好奇心很強
09:15
They want to know, what's going
on in this new box?
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牠們想知道這個新盒子裡是怎樣的
09:17
It's interesting.
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很有趣
09:19
But the moment we turned
on the laser, like you see now,
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但是當我們開啟雷射時,就像你看到的
09:22
all of a sudden the mouse
entered this freezing mode.
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這隻老鼠突然就進入了「行為凍結」模式
09:25
It stayed here and tried not
to move any part of its body.
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牠待在原處試著不移動身體
09:30
Clearly it's freezing.
218
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很明顯是「行為凍結」
09:31
So indeed, it looks
like we are able to bring back
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看起來,我們的確可以喚回
09:34
the fear memory for the first box
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在第一個盒子裡的恐懼記憶
09:36
in this completely new environment.
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並帶到這個全新的環境
09:39
While watching this, Steve and I
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看到這個情況,斯蒂夫和我
09:41
are as shocked as the mouse itself.
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像老鼠一樣震驚
09:44
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
09:45
So after the experiment,
the two of us just left the room
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實驗結束後,我們兩人離開了實驗室
09:48
without saying anything.
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什麼也沒說
09:50
After a kind of long,
awkward period of time,
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一段又長又尷尬的時間之後
09:53
Steve broke the silence.
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斯蒂夫打破了沉默
09:55
SR: "Did that just work?"
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斯蒂夫:「剛才那個起作用了?」
09:58
XL: "Yes," I said. "Indeed it worked!"
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劉旭:我說「對,起作用了!」
10:01
We're really excited about this.
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我們對此非常興奮
10:03
And then we published our findings
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後來我們把我們的發現
10:05
in the journal Nature.
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發表在《自然》科學期刊上
10:07
Ever since the publication of our work,
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自從發表之後
10:10
we've been receiving numerous comments
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我們得到了無數來自網際網路的評論
10:12
from all over the Internet.
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我們得到了無數來自網際網路的評論
10:14
Maybe we can take a look at some of those.
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也許我們可以看看其中幾篇
「天啊!終於!隨之而來的東西太多了,虛擬現實、神經操縱、夢幻仿真......神經編碼、記憶編輯、心理障礙治療,未來太美好了!」
10:18
["OMGGGGG FINALLY... so much more to come, virtual reality, neural manipulation, visual dream emulation...
neural coding, 'writing and re-writing of memories', mental illnesses. Ahhh the future is awesome"]
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10:20
SR: So the first thing
that you'll notice is that people
239
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斯蒂夫:首先你會注意到
10:22
have really strong opinions
about this kind of work.
240
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人們對此類發現懷有強烈的看法
10:25
Now I happen to completely
agree with the optimism
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2530
而我剛好對第一個評論的樂觀
10:28
of this first quote,
242
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792
抱持完全贊同態度
10:29
because on a scale
of zero to Morgan Freeman's voice,
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2784
因為,從零開始到摩根·弗里曼說的話
10:31
it happens to be
one of the most evocative accolades
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2477
恰巧成了最引人共鳴的讚揚
10:34
that I've heard come our way.
245
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而且我已經聽到了
(笑聲)
10:36
(Laughter)
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10:37
But as you'll see, it's not
the only opinion that's out there.
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但是,看法也不盡然是剛才那種
「這太嚇人了吧,要是他們幾年之後輕易在人身上實驗的話......我們完了!」
10:39
["This scares the hell out of me... What if they could do that easily
in humans in a couple of years?! OH MY GOD WE'RE DOOMED"]
248
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10:41
XL: Indeed, if we take
a look at the second one,
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劉旭:的確,如果我們仔細看第二個評論
10:43
I think we can all agree that it's, meh,
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2083
我想我們不得不同意那個看法
10:45
probably not as positive.
251
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1959
儘管不太正面
10:47
But this also reminds us that,
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2161
但這同時也提醒我們
10:49
although we are still working with mice,
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2162
雖然我們仍用老鼠做實驗
10:52
it's probably a good idea
to start thinking and discussing
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但這可能是一個好主意開始去思考與商討
10:55
about the possible ethical ramifications
255
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關於記憶控制可能衍生的倫理道德上的影響
10:58
of memory control.
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關於記憶控制可能衍生的倫理道德上的影響
11:00
SR: Now, in the spirit of the third quote,
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斯蒂夫:現在,借助第三個評論
11:02
we want to tell you about a recent
project that we've been
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我們想告訴大家我們最近的一個實驗計畫
11:04
working on in lab that we've called
Project Inception.
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我們稱之為《植入記憶》計畫
11:07
["They should make a movie about this. Where they plant ideas into peoples minds,
so they can control them for their own personal gain. We'll call it: Inception."]
260
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「他們應該據此拍一部電影:他們把思想植入人腦,然後控制那些人去實現他們的目的。稱之為《植入記憶》」
11:10
So we reasoned that now
that we can reactivate a memory,
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3542
所以,我們推斷,現在我們可以啟動一段記憶
11:14
what if we do so but then begin
to tinker with that memory?
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要是啟動之後我們對那段記憶動手腳呢?
11:17
Could we possibly even turn
it into a false memory?
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我們能把它轉變為虛假記憶嗎?
11:20
XL: So all memory
is sophisticated and dynamic,
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劉旭:所有記憶都是精密複雜且有活力的
11:24
but if just for simplicity,
let's imagine memory
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2955
而為了簡單說明
11:27
as a movie clip.
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我們把記憶想像成一個電影片段
11:28
So far what we've told you
is basically we can control
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目前為止我們告訴大家的都是
11:31
this "play" button of the clip
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我們能控制電影片段的「播放鍵」
11:33
so that we can play this video
clip any time, anywhere.
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4561
所以我們可以隨時隨地播放這段影像
11:37
But is there a possibility
that we can actually get
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2507
但是,有沒有可能我們可以進入大腦裡
11:40
inside the brain and edit this movie clip
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然後編輯這個電影片段
11:43
so that we can make it
different from the original?
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2872
以致讓它和原版不同
11:46
Yes we can.
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2154
是的,我們可以做到
11:48
Turned out that all we need
to do is basically
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其實我們要做的只是
11:50
reactivate a memory using
lasers just like we did before,
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就如先前用雷射去重新啟動一段記憶
11:54
but at the same time,
if we present new information
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但同時,如果我們把新訊息呈現出來
11:58
and allow this new information
to incorporate into this old memory,
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然後把新訊息與舊記憶合併
12:02
this will change the memory.
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就會改變那段記憶
12:04
It's sort of like making a remix tape.
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這有點像製作混音磁帶
12:08
SR: So how do we do this?
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斯蒂夫:那我們該怎麼做呢?
12:11
Rather than finding a fear
memory in the brain,
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與其在大腦裡尋找一段恐懼記憶
12:13
we can start by taking our animals,
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我們可以開始把動物
12:14
and let's say we put them in a blue
box like this blue box here
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2953
放進這樣一個藍色盒子裡
12:17
and we find the brain cells
that represent that blue box
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然後找到代表這個藍盒子的腦細胞
12:20
and we trick them to respond
to pulses of light
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讓它們對光脈衝產生反應
12:22
exactly like we had said before.
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正如我們剛才說的那樣
12:24
Now the next day, we can take
our animals and place them
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次日,我們就取出動物把牠們
12:26
in a red box that they've never
experienced before.
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放進一個從未待過的紅盒子裡
12:29
We can shoot light
into the brain to reactivate
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把雷射光射進牠們的大腦
12:31
the memory of the blue box.
290
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1848
重新啟動在藍盒子裡的記憶
12:33
So what would happen here
if, while the animal
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接下來會發生什麼呢?如果當這個動物
12:35
is recalling the memory of the blue box,
292
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正回想在藍盒子裡的記憶時
12:36
we gave it a couple of mild foot shocks?
293
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2584
我們輕微地電擊牠的足部
12:39
So here we're trying to artificially
make an association
294
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現在我們嘗試以人為的方式
12:42
between the memory of the blue box
295
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建立在藍盒子記憶
12:44
and the foot shocks themselves.
296
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1479
與足部電擊之間的關聯
12:45
We're just trying to connect the two.
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1762
只是讓兩者聯結起來
12:47
So to test if we had done so,
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為了檢測我們是否成功
12:49
we can take our animals once again
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我們再次取出動物
12:50
and place them back in the blue box.
300
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並放回到藍盒子裡
12:52
Again, we had just reactivated
the memory of the blue box
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2715
我們再次啟動那段藍盒子記憶
12:55
while the animal got a couple
of mild foot shocks,
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2381
並同時輕微電擊牠的足部
12:57
and now the animal suddenly freezes.
303
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這次牠突然僵住了
12:59
It's as though it's recalling being
mildly shocked in this environment
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3334
彷彿喚回在這個環境曾被電擊的記憶
13:02
even though that never actually happened.
305
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2822
儘管那從未發生
13:05
So it formed a false memory,
306
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1838
牠產生了一段虛假的記憶
13:07
because it's falsely
fearing an environment
307
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2048
因為牠毫無根據地對這個環境感到恐懼
13:09
where, technically speaking,
308
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1334
在那個環境裡,技術上說來
並沒不好的遭遇
13:11
nothing bad actually happened to it.
309
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2160
13:13
XL: So, so far we are only talking about
310
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2429
劉旭:所以目前為止,我們只在談
13:15
this light-controlled "on" switch.
311
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2342
光控制開關上的「開」鍵
13:18
In fact, we also have
a light-controlled "off" switch,
312
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3264
其實我們也有「關」鍵
13:21
and it's very easy to imagine that
313
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2056
而且很容易想像
13:23
by installing this
light-controlled "off" switch,
314
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2454
透過安裝這個由光控制的「關」鍵
13:25
we can also turn off a memory,
any time, anywhere.
315
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5564
我們同樣能隨時隨地關閉一段記憶
13:31
So everything
we've been talking about today
316
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2190
今天我們說的一切
13:33
is based on this philosophically
charged principle of neuroscience
317
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4653
都是基於下面這個
神經科學的哲學原則:
13:38
that the mind, with its seemingly
mysterious properties,
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雖然記憶看起來神秘難解
13:42
is actually made of physical
stuff that we can tinker with.
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其實是由可修補的實體物質所組成
13:46
SR: And for me personally,
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斯蒂夫:對我個人而言
13:47
I see a world where we can reactivate
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我看到了一個世界,一個我們能重新啟動
13:49
any kind of memory that we'd like.
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所有我們想啟動的記憶的世界
13:51
I also see a world where we can
erase unwanted memories.
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我們也能刪除所有不想要的記憶
13:54
Now, I even see a world
where editing memories
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如今,我甚至看到編輯記憶
13:56
is something of a reality,
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都可能成真
13:58
because we're living in a time
where it's possible
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因為,在我們生活的時代
13:59
to pluck questions from the tree
of science fiction
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我們能把科幻小說裡的疑問
14:02
and to ground them
in experimental reality.
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搬到現實生活中進行檢驗
14:04
XL: Nowadays, people in the lab
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劉旭:現今,全世界無論是從事科研的人
14:06
and people in other
groups all over the world
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或其他研究的人
14:08
are using similar methods
to activate or edit memories,
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都在運用類似的方法啟動或編輯記憶
14:12
whether that's old or new,
positive or negative,
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不管方法是新或舊、正面或負面
14:16
all sorts of memories so
that we can understand
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各種的記憶,藉此我們能了解
14:19
how memory works.
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記憶運作的方式
14:20
SR: For example, one group in our lab
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斯蒂夫:比如說,我們實驗室有一個團隊
14:22
was able to find the brain cells
that make up a fear memory
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曾找到組成恐懼記憶的細胞
14:25
and converted them into a pleasurable
memory, just like that.
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然後把它轉化成了快樂記憶,就像那樣
14:28
That's exactly what I mean about editing
these kinds of processes.
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這樣的程序就是我所說的編輯記憶
14:31
Now one dude in lab
was even able to reactivate
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我們實驗室有位老兄甚至能重新啟動
14:33
memories of female mice in male mice,
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雄鼠的大腦裡一段有關雌鼠的記憶
14:35
which rumor has it
is a pleasurable experience.
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據說那可是相當愉快的經驗啊
14:38
XL: Indeed, we are living
in a very exciting moment
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劉旭:的確,我們生長在一個令人非常振奮的時代
14:42
where science doesn't have
any arbitrary speed limits
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科學不受任何的限制
14:46
but is only bound by our own imagination.
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唯獨被我們的想像力所局限
14:49
SR: And finally, what do
we make of all this?
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斯蒂夫:最後我們能得到什麼?
14:51
How do we push this technology forward?
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我們如何把這個技術深化?
14:53
These are the questions
that should not remain
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這些問題不該只留給實驗室
14:55
just inside the lab,
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這些問題不該只留給實驗室
14:57
and so one goal of today's talk
was to bring everybody
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而且,今天演講的其中一個目的
14:59
up to speed with the kind
of stuff that's possible
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就是為了讓大家知道,現代神經科學
15:02
in modern neuroscience,
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編輯記憶是有可能的
15:03
but now, just as importantly,
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但現在,同等重要的是
15:05
to actively engage everybody
in this conversation.
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讓每個人都參與其中共同討論
15:08
So let's think together as a team
about what this all means
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所以,讓我們像團隊一樣思考:這些意味著什麼、
我們能做什麼、應何去何從
15:11
and where we can and should go from here,
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15:13
because Xu and I think we all have
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因為阿旭和我認為
15:15
some really big decisions ahead of us.
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有些重大決定等著我們所有人去做
15:17
Thank you. XL: Thank you.
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謝謝
謝謝
15:18
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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