Vincent Moon and Nana Vasconcelos: The world’s hidden music rituals

譯者: Yamei Huang 審譯者: Wil Huang

Vincent Moon: How can we use computers,

文森‧慕：我們如何使用電腦，

cameras, microphones to represent the world

照相機，麥克風來呈現這個世界，

in an alternative way,

以另一種方式，

as much as possible?

儘可能地展現？

How, maybe, is it possible to use the Internet

或許，如何才能使用網路

to create a new form of cinema?

去創作一部具有新題材的電影？

And actually, why do we record?

問題是，我們為什麼要記錄呢？

Well, it is with such simple questions in mind

10 年前我開始拍攝電影時，

that I started to make films 10 years ago,

這個簡單的問題一直存在心裡，

first with a friend, Christophe Abric.

最早是和朋友克里斯多福‧阿布里克 一起

He had a website, La Blogothèque,

他有一個網站叫做拉布拉格鐵克 （La Blogothèque），

dedicated to independent music.

是一個專為獨立音樂設立的網站。

We were crazy about music.

我們非常熱愛音樂

We wanted to represent music in a different way,

想要以不同的方式來展現音樂，

to film the music we love, the musicians we admired,

因此我們拍攝喜愛的音樂， 我們所尊敬的音樂家，

as much as possible, far from the music industry

儘可能去遠離音樂產業，

and far from the cliches attached to it.

遠離大家一直重複在做的事。

We started to publish every week

我們開始每週

sessions on the Internet.

在網路上發佈影片。

We are going to see a few extracts now.

現在我們來看一些片段。

From Grizzly Bear in the shower

從浴室裡的灰熊樂團（Grizzly Bear）

to Sigur Ros playing in a Parisian cafe.

到席格若斯樂團（Sigur Ros ） 在巴黎咖啡廳的演奏。

From Phoenix playing by the Eiffel Tower

從在艾菲爾鐡塔表演的 鳯凰城樂團（Phoenix）

to Tom Jones in his hotel room in New York.

到紐約飯店裡的湯姆‧瓊斯。

From Arcade Fire in an elevator

從拱廊之火樂團 （ Arcade Fire ）

in the Olympia

在奧林匹亞的一個電梯裡的表演

to Beirut going down a staircase in Brooklyn.

到貝魯特在布魯克林下樓梯時的表演。

From R.E.M. in a car

從 R.E.M. 在車子裡面的表演

to The National around a table at night

到全國人民樂團（The National）

in the south of France.

在南法夜晚圍繞著桌子的表演。

From Bon Iver playing with some friends

從邦‧利柏與朋友們

in an apartment in Montmartre

在蒙馬特公寓的表演

to Yeasayer having a long night,

到肯定樂團（Yeasayer ） 的漫漫長夜，

and many, many, many more

還有很多，很多

unknown or very famous bands.

不知名或非常有名樂團。

We published all those films

我們將這些影片

for free on the Internet,

免費發佈到網路上，

and we wanted to share

我們要分享

all those films and represent music

這些影片以及

in a different way.

以不同的方式來呈現音樂。

We wanted to create another type of intimacy

我們想要以這些新科技

using all those new technologies.

來創造另一種讓人 親近音樂的形式。

At the time, 10 years ago actually,

當時，實際上是 10 年前，

there was no such project on the Internet,

網路上沒有如此多的影片，

and I guess that's why the project we were making, the Take Away Shows,

我想這就是為什麼我們製作的 「帶走秀」

got quite successful,

能夠如此成功

reaching millions of viewers.

達到百萬人次的點閱率。

After a while, I got a bit —

過了一陣子之後，我有一點，恩...

I wanted to go somewhere else.

我想去別的地方。

I felt the need to travel and to discover some other music,

我覺得我需要去旅行， 去發現一些不同的音樂，

to explore the world,

去探索這個世界，

going to other corners,

前往其他的角落，

and actually it was also

實際上我那時候也就想要拍

this idea of nomadic cinema, sort of, that I had in mind.

這樣的遊牧電影了。

How could the use of new technologies and the road fit together?

要怎樣才能在旅途中結合新科技呢？

How could I edit my films in a bus

當我穿越 安地斯山脈時

crossing the Andes?

如何在車內編輯影片？

So I went on five-year travels

所以我展開一段五年的旅行，

around the globe.

前往世界各地。

I started at the time in the digital film and music label collection Petites Planètes,

那時我開始經營收錄數位影片和 分類音樂的「小行星」網站

which was also an homage to French filmmaker Chris Marker.

創立這個網站也是向 法國製片家克里斯‧馬克致敬

We're going to see now a few more extracts

現在我們再來看一些

of those new films.

剛拍好的影片片段。

From the tecno brega diva of northern Brazil, Gaby Amarantos

從巴西北部鐵諾布雷嘉 女主唱蓋比‧阿瑪冉爾都斯

to a female ensemble in Chechnya.

到一個車臣的女性樂團。

From experimental electronic music in Singapore with One Man Nation

從新加坡「一個人的國度」 實驗電子音樂

to Brazilian icon Tom Zé singing on his rooftop in São Paolo.

到巴西的指標歌手湯姆‧喬 在聖保羅的自家屋頂唱歌。

From The Bambir, the great rock band from Armenia

從有名的亞美尼亞搖滾樂團斑比爾

to some traditional songs

到喬治亞第比利斯

in a restaurant in Tbilisi, Georgia.

餐廳裡的傳統音樂。

From White Shoes, a great retro pop band from Jakarta, Indonesia

從印尼雅加達，一個有名的 復古流行樂團「白襪子」

to DakhaBrakha, the revolutionary band from Kiev, Ukraine.

到烏克蘭基輔的 創新樂團達哈布拉哈。

From Tomi Lebrero

從湯米‧樂柏賀羅

and his bandoneon and his friends in Buenos Aires, Argentina,

與朋友在阿根廷布宜諾斯艾利斯 的班多鈕風琴表演。

to many other places

到許多其他地方

and musicians around the world.

以及世界上的音樂家。

My desire was to make it as a trek.

我希望把它做成一個音樂之旅。

To do all those films,

要製作這些影片，

it would have been impossible

如果背後有一個大公司

with a big company behind me,

這是不可能完成的，

with a structure or anything.

因為會有公司組織或制度。

I was traveling alone with a backpack —

我背著我的背包獨自旅行－

computer, camera, microphones in it.

帶著電腦，照相和麥克風，

Alone, actually, but just with local people,

真的只有我自己，與當地的人

meeting my team, which was absolutely not

一起開會，在場的人，

他們絶對不是專業人士，

professional people, on the spot there,

going from one place to another

再從一個地方到另外一個地方

and to make cinema as a trek.

一面旅行，一面編輯影片。

I really believed that cinema could be

我相信電影藝術

this very simple thing:

可以非常單純：

I want to make a film and you're going to give me a place to stay for the night.

我想拍攝一部電影， 你提供我一個可以過夜的地方，

I give you a moment of cinema and you offer me a capirinha.

我幫你們拍一段影片， 你們就給我一杯鷄尾酒

Well, or other drinks,

或其他飲料，

depending on where you are.

看你在什麼地方啦

In Peru, they drink pisco sour.

在祕魯，人們喝酸味皮斯可鷄尾酒。

Well, when I arrived in Peru, actually,

當我剛到祕魯時，

I had no idea about what I would do there.

我真的不知道在那裡要做什麼。

And I just had one phone number, actually,

我手上就只有

of one person.

一個人的電話號碼

Three months later,

三個月之後，

after traveling all around the country, I had recorded 33 films,

當我遊遍整個國家之後， 我拍了 33 部影片，

only with the help of local people,

只藉著當地人的幫助，

only with the help of people

僅僅靠著人們的協助，

that I was asking all the time the same question:

我總是一直問相同的問題：

What is important to record here today?

今天這裡最值得記錄的是什麼？

By living in such a way,

以這種方式生活，

by working without any structure,

沒有組織結構的工作方式，

I was able to react to the moment

我能夠與當下互動

and to decide, oh, this is important to make now.

決定這是現在要去做的重要事。

This is important to record that whole person.

記錄整個人是重要的。

This is important to create this exchange.

與他人交流是重要的。

When I went to Chechnya,

當我到了車臣，

the first person I met

我碰到的第一個人

looked at me and was like,

看著我，像是說，

"What are you doing here?

＂你在這裡做什麼？

Are you a journalist? NGO? Politics?

你是記者嗎？非營利組織？ 還是政治人物？

What kind of problems are you going to study?"

你是要研究什麼樣的問題？＂

Well, I was there to research

我來這裡是要研究

on Sufi rituals in Chechnya, actually —

車臣的蘇菲儀式，

incredible culture of Sufism in Chechnya,

不可思議的車臣蘇菲文化，

which is absolutely unknown outside of the region.

它絶對是外界無法得知的文化。

As soon as people understood

當地人民很快得知

that I would give them those films —

我要將他們拍攝成影片－

I would publish them online for free under a Creative Commons license,

在知識共享協議下， 將影片免費發佈到網路上，

but I would also really give them to the people

我給當地人我所拍攝的影片

and I would let them do what they want with it.

我讓當地人決定 拍攝影片的方式。

I just want to represent them in a beautiful light.

我要以美麗的光芒來展現他們。

I just want to portray them in a way that

我要以一種方式去刻畫他們

their grandchildren are going to look at their grandfather,

讓他們的孫子看到其祖父母，

and they're going to be like,

將會很喜歡，

"Whoa, my grandfather is as cool as Beyoncé." (Laughter)

＂哇，我的祖父母和碧昂絲一樣酷＂ （笑聲）

It's a really important thing.

這是一件很重要的事情。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

It's really important,

這是非常重要的，

because that's the way

因為這個方式

people are going to look differently at their own culture, at their own land.

人們將以不同的眼光來看待 自己的文化，自己的土地。

They're going to think about it differently.

他們會有不同的想法。

It may be a way to maintain a certain diversity.

或許這是一個保有多樣性的方式。

Why you will record?

為何要記錄？

Hmm. There's a really good quote

嗯，有個很好的引用

by American thinker Hakim Bey

美國思想家哈基姆‧貝

which says, "Every recording

的說法「每一個記錄

is a tombstone of a live performance."

都是生活表演的墓碑。」

It's a really good sentence to keep in mind

這是一句值得放在中心的佳言

nowadays in an era saturated by images.

在當今在這個充滿圖像的年代裡。

What's the point of that?

這代表什麼意義？

Where do we go with it?

這是為了什麼？

I was researching. I was still keeping this idea in mind:

我做了研究， 我仍然將此想法放在心上：

What's the point?

有何意義？

I was researching on music, trying to pull,

我研究音樂，試著取得，

trying to get closer to a certain origin of it.

試著更貼近原始風貌。

Where is this all coming from?

這些是從那裡來？

I am French. I had no idea about

我是法國人，我不知道

what I would discover, which is a very simple thing:

我會發現什麼， 那是一件簡單的事：

Everything was sacred, at first,

一開始，每件事都是神聖的，

and music was spiritual healing.

音樂是心靈的治療劑，

How could I use my camera,

我如何使用照相機，

my little tool, to get closer

小工具，去貼近

and maybe not only capture the trance

或許不只是捕捉幻境 抓住

but find an equivalent, a cine-trance, maybe,

也可找到一個平衡點， 一個電影的逸境，

something in complete harmony

將人們完全融入其中

with the people?

的影片？

That is now my new research I'm doing

是我正在做的研究

on spirituality, on new spirits around the world.

心靈上，世界上新的靈性元素。

Maybe a few more extracts now.

現在來看幾部短片。

From the Tana Toraja funeral ritual in Indonesia

從印尼塔納托拉賈的喪葬儀式

to an Easter ceremony in the north of Ethiopia.

到伊索比亞北部的復活節儀式。

From jathilan, a popular trance ritual

從爪哇島雅西蘭

on the island of Java,

一種流行的入神舞蹈儀式，

to Umbanda in the north of Brazil.

到巴西北部的招魂儀式

The Sufi rituals of Chechnya

車臣的蘇菲儀式

to a mass in the holiest church of Armenia.

到亞美尼亞教堂最神聖的彌撒。

Some Sufi songs in Harar,

哈拉爾的蘇菲歌曲，

the holy city of Ethiopia,

衣索匹亞的聖城，

to an ayahuasca ceremony

到死藤水儀式

deep in the Amazon of Peru with the Shipibo.

祕魯亞馬遜深處的 席匹波族（Shipibo）。

Then to my new project, the one I'm doing now

到我的現在正在做的新計劃，

here in Brazil, named "Híbridos."

在巴西叫做「混合動力車。」

I'm doing it with Priscilla Telmon.

我和佩西拉‧泰門一起做。

It's research on the new spiritualities all around the country.

是有關於這個國家的新心靈。

This is my quest, my own little quest of what I call experimental ethnography,

這是我的請求，我自己的小請求， 稱之為實驗民族誌，

trying to hybrid all those different genres,

試著去混合不同的作品類型，

trying to regain a certain complexity.

試著恢復一定的複雜性。

Why do we record?

為什麼要記錄？

I was still there.

我仍然在問這個問題。

I really believe cinema teaches us to see.

我相信拍攝影片這件事教我們去看。

The way we show the world

呈現世界面貌的方式

is going to change the way we see this world,

將會改變我們看待世界的方式，

and we live in a moment where the mass media

我們身處於大眾媒體

are doing a terrible, terrible job

做得很糟糕的時刻，以可怖的方式

at representing the world:

呈現世界：

violence, extremists,

暴力，極端份子

only spectacular events,

只有引人注目的事件，

only simplifications of everyday life.

只有單純的日常生活。

I think we are recording

我認為我們在記錄

to regain a certain complexity.

以獲得一定的複雜性。

To reinvent life today,

去重塑生活，

we have to make new forms of images.

我們必需去製作新的印象。

And it's very simple.

同時也是很簡單。

Muito obrigado.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Bruno Giussani: Vincent, Vincent, Vincent.

布魯諾‧朱薩尼：文森，文森，文森，

Merci. We have to prepare for the following performance,

謝謝。我們必須準備接下來的表演，

and I have a question for you, and the question is this:

我有個問題，這個問題是：

You show up in places like the ones you just have shown us,

你出現在你給我們看的影片的地方，

and you are carrying a camera

你拿著照相機

and I assume that you are welcome

我假設你受歡迎

but you are not always absolutely welcome.

但你不總是受歡迎。

You walk into sacred rituals,

你踏入令入害怕的儀式，

private moments in a village, a town,

在村莊裡的私人時刻，

a group of people.

一群人。

How do you break the barrier

你是如何打破壁壘

when you show up with a lens?

在你拿出鏡頭的時候？

VM: I think you break it with your body,

文森‧慕：以你的身體打破障礙，

more than with your knowledge.

多於用你既定的知識。

That's what it taught me to travel,

這是旅行中學到的，

to trust the memory of the body

去相信身體的記憶力

more than the memory of the brain.

多於大腦的記憶。

The respect is stepping forward,

尊敬讓你往前邁進，

not stepping backward, and I really think that

而不是後退，我真的認為

by engaging your body in the moment, in the ceremony,

你的身體融入當下，在儀式中，

in the places, people welcome you

這個地方的居民歡迎你

and understand your energy.

也了解你的想法。

BG: You told me that most of the videos

朱薩尼：你告訴我們，你所製作的

you have made are actually one single shot.

大部分的影片一次拍攝完成。

You don't do much editing.

不需要太多的編輯。

I mean, you edited the ones for us

我的意思是，你為我們編輯影片

at the beginning of the sessions because of the length, etc.

我節目開始的時候，因為影片太長，

Otherwise, you just go in and capture

要不然，你會直接

whatever happens in front of your eyes

拍攝你眼前的所有事物

without much planning, and so is that the case?

不要太多的規劃，

It's correct?

對嗎？

VM: My idea is that I think that

文森‧慕：我的想法是

as long as we don't cut, in a way,

只要不剪輯，

as long as we let the viewer watch,

只要讓觀眾看到，

more and more viewers are going to feel closer,

有更多的觀眾會覺得更貼近，

are going to get closer to the moment,

在那時刻更貼近一些，

to that moment and to that place.

在那時刻，那地方更貼近了。

I really think of that as a matter of respecting the viewer,

我真的認為這是尊重觀眾的方式，

to not cut all the time from one place to another,

從頭到尾不去剪接，

to just let the time go.

而是讓時光流逝。

BG: Tell me in a few words about your new project,

朱薩尼：簡短地告訴我你的新計劃，

"Híbridos," here in Brazil.

在巴西稱為「混合動力車」。

Just before coming to TEDGlobal, you have actually

在來到TED全球以前，

been traveling around the country for that.

還在為這計劃在這國家旅行。

Tell us a couple of things.

告訴我們一些事。

VM: "Híbridos" is — I really believe Brazil,

文森‧慕：「混合動力車」是－ 我相信巴西

far from the cliches, is the greatest religious country in the world,

是世界上最大宗教國， 並非老生常談，

the greatest country in terms of spirituality

以心靈性層面來說，是最大的國家，

and in experimentations in spiritualities.

在實驗上，在心靈上都是。

And it's a big project I'm doing over this year,

這是我這今年正在做的大計劃，

which is researching in very different regions of Brazil,

探索巴西不同的宗教，

in very different forms of cults,

有著不同的膜拜儀式，

and trying to understand how people live together

我試圖了解在面對當今靈性的事物

with spirituality nowadays.

人們是如何生活在一起。

BG: The man who is going to appear onstage momentarily,

朱薩尼：即將上台的人

and Vincent's going to introduce him,

文森‧慕將會介紹他，

is one of the subjects of one of his past videos.

是以前拍攝的一個主題之一。

When did you do a video with him?

你是何時拍攝他的？

VM: I guess four years ago,

文森‧慕：我想是在 4 年前，

four years in my first travel.

4 年前的第一次旅行。

BG: So it was one of your first ones in Brazil.

朱薩尼：所以這是你 在巴西的第一部影片。

VM: It was amongst the first ones in Brazil, yeah.

文森‧慕：是的， 我在巴西的第一部影片之一。

I shot the film in Recife,

我在累西腓拍的，

in the place where he is from.

而他來自累西腓。

BG: So let's introduce him. Who are we waiting for?

朱薩尼：讓我們來介紹他。 即將出場的是誰呢？

VM: I'll just make it very short.

文森‧慕：我做個簡短介紹。

It's a very great honor for me to welcome onstage

非常榮幸邀請有史以來

one of the greatest Brazilian musicians of all time.

巴西最偉大的音樂家之一。

Please welcome Naná Vasconcelos.

讓我你歡迎納納‧瓦斯康塞洛斯。

BG: Naná Vasconcelos!

朱薩尼：納納‧瓦斯康塞洛斯！

(Applause)

（掌聲）

(Music)

（音樂）

Naná Vasconcelos: Let's go to the jungle.

納納‧瓦斯康塞洛斯：讓我們走入叢林

(Applause)

（掌聲）