A radical plan to end plastic waste | Andrew Forrest

翻译人员: Chloe Ma 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang

Chris Anderson: So, you've been obsessed with this problem

克里斯·安得森： 你近几年都在

for the last few years.

痴迷于这个问题。

What is the problem, in your own words?

你认为问题到底是什么？

Andrew Forrest: Plastic.

安德烈·弗利斯特： 极其简单，

Simple as that.

塑料。

Our inability to use it for the tremendous energetic commodity that it is,

我们无法将它 用作巨大的能源材料，

and just throw it away.

所以就把它扔掉。

CA: And so we see waste everywhere.

克里斯： 我们都看到了，浪费无处不在。

At its extreme, it looks a bit like this.

极端一些，就会像这样。

I mean, where was this picture taken?

这张照片是在哪里拍的？

AF: That's in the Philippines,

安德烈： 菲律宾，

and you know, there's a lot of rivers, ladies and gentlemen,

在那里有很多河流， 女士们先生们，

看起来都是这样的。

which look exactly like that.

And that's the Philippines.

那是在菲律宾拍摄的。

So it's all over Southeast Asia.

整个东南亚都能看到这样的河流。

CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers,

克里斯: 塑料被扔到河里，

and from there, of course, it ends up in the ocean.

然后理所当然的进入海洋。

I mean, we obviously see it on the beaches,

很明显，我们在沙滩上能看到，

but that's not even your main concern.

但是这不是你最主要的担忧，

It's what's actually happening to it in the oceans. Talk about that.

你担忧的是真实发生在 海洋中的事情。讲讲吧。

AF: OK, so look. Thank you, Chris.

安德烈： 谢谢，克里斯。

About four years ago,

大概四年前，

I thought I'd do something really barking crazy,

我想要做一些疯狂的事，

and I committed to do a PhD in marine ecology.

于是我拿到了 海洋生态学的博士学位。

And the scary part about that was,

可怕的是，

sure, I learned a lot about marine life,

当然，我学习了很多海洋生物，

but it taught me more about marine death

但是它教给我更多的是 海洋生物的死亡，

and the extreme mass ecological fatality of fish,

海洋中极度混乱的生态情况，

of marine life, marine mammals,

海洋中的哺乳动物，鱼类，

very close biology to us,

生物上与我们很相近的动物，

which are dying in the millions if not trillions that we can't count

数以百万计的在死去，甚至更多，

at the hands of plastic.

仅仅是因为塑料。

CA: But people think of plastic as ugly but stable. Right?

克里斯： 但是人们认为塑料是丑陋却无害的。

You throw something in the ocean, "Hey, it'll just sit there forever.

人们把垃圾扔进大海 “看吧，它会一直在这里。

Can't do any damage, right?"

并不会造成任何伤害，不是吗？”

AF: See, Chris, it's an incredible substance designed for the economy.

安德烈：不得不承认， 塑料是对经济最好的设计，

It is the worst substance possible for the environment.

也是对环境最坏的设计。

The worst thing about plastics, as soon as it hits the environment,

最坏的情况是， 当塑料一触碰到大自然，

is that it fragments.

它会分解成碎片。

It never stops being plastic.

它永远都是塑料，

It breaks down smaller and smaller and smaller,

只会分解得越来越小，越来越小，

and the breaking science on this, Chris,

这其中突破性的科学原理，

which we've known in marine ecology for a few years now,

我们几年前在 海洋生态学中就有所了解，

but it's going to hit humans.

它会影响到人类。

We are aware now that nanoplastic,

我们知道纳米塑料，

the very, very small particles of plastic, carrying their negative charge,

也就是塑料中非常，非常 小的分子，带着负电荷，

can go straight through the pores of your skin.

可以直接穿过你皮肤的毛孔。

That's not the bad news.

这还不是最坏的。

The bad news is that it goes straight through the blood-brain barrier,

最坏的部分是， 它会进入到你的血脑屏障，

that protective coating which is there to protect your brain.

这层屏障能保护你的大脑。

你的大脑有着不规则的形状， 里面都是电荷。

Your brain's a little amorphous, wet mass full of little electrical charges.

You put a negative particle into that,

你放进去一个负电荷，

particularly a negative particle which can carry pathogens --

特别是一个可能 有病原体的负电荷——

so you have a negative charge, it attracts positive-charge elements,

负电荷可以吸引正电荷,

like pathogens, toxins,

比如病原体，毒素，

mercury, lead.

水银，铅。

That's the breaking science we're going to see in the next 12 months.

这就是我们一年内 会看到的突破性科学。

CA: So already I think you told me that there's like 600 plastic bags or so

克里斯： 你之前提到过，每条在海里的鱼

for every fish that size in the ocean, something like that.

平均能“分配”到大约600个塑料袋。

And they're breaking down,

这些塑料在分解，

and there's going to be ever more of them,

会有更多的塑料袋，

and we haven't even seen the start of the consequences of that.

目前我们甚至还没 意识到结局会是什么。

安德烈： 是的，我们还没有。

AF: No, we really haven't.

The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, they're a bunch of good scientists,

艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会 有很多优秀的科学家，

我们和他们合作了一段时间。

we've been working with them for a while.

我完全验证了他们的工作。

I've completely verified their work.

They say there will be one ton of plastic, Chris,

他们说每三吨的鱼，

for every three tons of fish by, not 2050 --

就能够“分配”到一吨的垃圾， 不需要等到2050年——

and I really get impatient with people who talk about 2050 -- by 2025.

每次人们讲2050年我都会 嗤之以鼻——而是2025年。

That's around the corner.

没几年了，

That's just the here and now.

这种情况眼看着就要发生了。

You don't need one ton of plastic to completely wipe out marine life.

不到一吨的塑料垃圾 就能彻底抹去海洋生物，

Less than that is going to do a fine job at it.

就算再少一点也一样。

So we have to end it straightaway. We've got no time.

所以我们要尽快解决， 我们的时间所剩无几了。

CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it, and you're coming at this

克里斯： 好的，你有一个很好的解决方法，

not as a typical environmental campaigner, I would say,

不像是那种典型的环境保护家，

but as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, who has lived --

而是以一个商人， 一个创业者的身份——

you've spent your whole life thinking about global economic systems

你用了你的一生 思考全球经济系统

and how they work.

和它的原理。

And if I understand it right,

如果我理解得没错，

your idea depends on heroes who look something like this.

你的想法是基于这样的英雄。

What's her profession?

她是做什么的？

AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker,

安德烈： 她是一名拾荒者，

and there were 15, 20 million ragpickers like her,

还有大约1500万到 2000万像她一样的人，

until China stopped taking everyone's waste.

直到中国停止回收全世界的垃圾，

And the price of plastic, minuscule that it was, collapsed.

原本微不足道的 塑料价格也随之崩塌了。

That led to people like her,

这导致很多像她一样的人，

which, now -- she is a child who is a schoolchild.

那些学龄儿童没钱读书了，

She should be at school.

她应该在学校读书，

That's probably very akin to slavery.

这和奴隶制非常相似。

My daughter Grace and I have met hundreds of people like her.

我和我的女儿格雷丝 看到了数百个像她一样的人。

CA: And there are many adults as well, literally millions around the world,

克里斯： 全世界还有数百万 像她一样的成人，

在一些行业中，

and in some industries,

他们甚至功不可没，比如说，

they actually account for the fact that, for example,

我们并没有看到很多金属垃圾。

we don't see a lot of metal waste in the world.

AF: That's exactly right.

安德烈： 正是如此。

That little girl is, in fact, the hero of the environment.

这个小女孩，事实上， 是保护环境的英雄。

She's in competition with a great big petrochemical plant

她在对抗一家石化厂，

which is just down the road,

就在那条路的另一边，

the three-and-a-half-billion-dollar petrochemical plant.

一家市值35亿美元的石化厂。

问题在于，

That's the problem.

We've got more oil and gas in plastic and landfill

在塑料堆填区中的油气资源

than we have in the entire oil and gas resources of the United States.

比整个美国的油气资源还要多。

So she is the hero.

从塑料回收的角度说， 她就是个英雄。

And that's what that landfill looks like, ladies and gentlemen,

女士们先生们， 这就是堆填区的样子，

and it's solid oil and gas.

这些就是固态石油和天然气。

CA: So there's huge value potentially locked up in there

克里斯： 所以这里有很大的开发潜能，

that the world's ragpickers would, if they could, make a living from.

这些捡垃圾的人们， 如果他们愿意，会以此为生。

But why can't they?

但是为什么他们不能呢？

AF: Because we have ingrained in us

安德烈: 因为我们都有一种根深蒂固的思想，

a price of plastic from fossil fuels,

来自化石燃料的原生塑料价格，

which sits just under what it takes

刚刚好比

to economically and profitably recycle plastic from plastic.

通过经济的回收方法获得的 塑料的价格便宜一些。

See, all plastic is is building blocks from oil and gas.

要知道，所有的塑料 都来自石油和天然气。

Plastic's 100 percent polymer, which is 100 percent oil and gas.

塑料百分之百是聚合物， 代表它百分之百是石油和天然气。

And you know we've got enough plastic in the world

这世界上的塑料能满足我们

所有的需要。

for all our needs.

当我们回收塑料时，

And when we recycle plastic,

if we can't recycle it cheaper than fossil fuel plastic,

如果我们的回收价格 比原生的价格高，

then, of course, the world just sticks to fossil fuel plastic.

理所当然的， 大家就会用原生塑料。

CA: So that's the fundamental problem,

克里斯： 所以最主要的问题是，

the price of recycled plastic is usually more

回收塑料的价格通常高于

than the price of just buying it made fresh from more oil.

直接买新的塑料。

That's the fundamental problem.

这是最主要的问题。

AF: A slight tweak of the rules here, Chris.

安德烈： 我们把规则调整一下。

I'm a commodity person.

我是一个商人。

I understand that we used to have scrap metal and rubbish iron

我明白我们曾经有很多 废金属，比如废铁，

and bits of copper lying all round the villages,

还有一些铜，它们散布在 村子里的各个角落，

particularly in the developing world.

特别是发展中国家。

And people worked out it's got a value.

人们发现这些东西是值钱的。

It's actually an article of value,

它们实际上有价值，

not of waste.

而不是废品。

Now the villages and the cities and the streets are clean,

现在村庄，城市，道路上 都是干干净净的，

you don't trip over scrap copper or scrap iron now,

如果你没有被废铁废铜绊倒，

because it's an article of value, it gets recycled.

那是因为它们有价值， 它们被回收了。

CA: So what's your idea, then, to try to change that in plastics?

克里斯：所以你的主张是 对塑料进行类似的回收？

AF: OK, so Chris,

安德烈： 这么说吧，

for most part of that PhD, I've been doing research.

我读博士的大部分时间 都是在做研究。

And the good thing about being a businessperson who's done OK at it

当一个出色的商人的好处就是

is that people want to see you.

能见到很多人。

Other businesspeople,

其他的商人，

even if you're kind of a bit of a zoo animal species they'd like to check out,

即使你是动物园里的动物， 他们也想看看，

they'll say, yeah, OK, we'll all meet Twiggy Forrest.

他们会说，好啊，让我们 见见 Twiggy（嘉宾的昵称）。

And so once you're in there,

当你们见面的时候，

you can interrogate them.

你可以询问他们。

And I've been to most of the oil and gas and fast-moving consumer good companies

我去过世界上大部分 的石油和天然气公司，

in the world,

以及快速消耗品公司，

and there is a real will to change.

真的有想要做出改变的人。

I mean, there's a couple of dinosaurs

的确有一些巨头，

who are going to hope for the best and do nothing,

希望好事发生却不愿为此努力，

but there's a real will to change.

但是也有人真心想要做出改变。

So what I've been discussing is,

所以我一直谈论的是，

the seven and a half billion people in the world

世界上的75亿人，

don't actually deserve to have their environment smashed by plastic,

他们的环境不应该被塑料摧毁，

their oceans rendered depauperate or barren of sea life because of plastic.

他们的海洋不应该腐烂掉， 海洋生物不应该被塑料灭绝。

So you come down that chain,

所以你要找到这循环的开端，

and there's tens of thousands of brands which we all buy heaps of products from,

有成千上万的品牌， 我们成堆的买他们的产品，

but then there's only a hundred major resin producers,

但是只有一百个树脂生产商，

big petrochemical plants,

大型石化厂，

that spew out all the plastic which is single use.

只用过一次的塑料， 从那喷涌而出。

CA: So one hundred companies

克里斯： 所以有一百个公司

are right at the base of this food chain, as it were.

在这循环的根源。

AF: Yeah.

安德烈： 是的。

CA: And so what do you need those one hundred companies to do?

克里斯：那么这一百个公司， 你认为应该怎么做呢？

AF: OK, so we need them to simply raise the value

安德烈： 很简单。我们需要他们提高

of the building blocks of plastic from oil and gas,

用石油和天然气 做成的塑料的价格，

which I call "bad plastic,"

我们把它们称作“坏塑料”，

raise the value of that,

提高它们的价格，

so that when it spreads through the brands and onto us, the customers,

而当它们进入市场后， 我们作为消费者，

we won't barely even notice an increase in our coffee cup

甚至不会注意到 咖啡杯的涨价

or Coke or Pepsi, or anything.

或者可乐，或者百事 任何东西的轻微涨价。

CA: Like, what, like a cent extra?

克里斯： 就贵了1分钱？

AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent.

安德烈： 更少，半分钱。

It'll be absolutely minimal.

这种增长几乎察觉不到。

But what it does,

但是它的作用是，

it makes every bit of plastic all over the world an article of value.

能使世界上每一片垃圾都有价值。

Where you have the waste worst,

当你有很严重的污染，

say Southeast Asia, India,

比如说东南亚，印度，

that's where the wealth is most.

那里是财富最丰盈的地方。

CA: OK, so it feels like there's two parts to this.

克里斯：好的，所以 这里面包含两部分。

One is, if they will charge more money

第一部分，让原生塑料涨价，

but carve out that excess

并把价格超出的部分

and pay it -- into what? -- a fund operated by someone

用来支付—— 比如某种被管理的资金，

to tackle this problem of -- what?

用来解决什么样的问题是吗？

What would that money be used for, that they charge the extra for?

那些钱会用来做什么？ 那些额外的钱？

AF: So when I speak to really big businesses,

安德烈： 当我跟大企业交谈时，

I say, "Look, I need you to change, and I need you to change really fast,"

我会说 “听着，我需要你 改了这个，而且越快越好。”

their eyes are going to peel over in boredom,

他们的眼神透露出不感兴趣，

unless I say, "And it's good business."

除非我说： “这是一个很不错的项目。”

"OK, now you've got my attention, Andrew."

“现在我开始感兴趣了，安德烈。”

So I say, "Right, I need you to make a contribution

所以我会说： “好的，我需要你

to an environmental and industry transition fund.

对环境和产业转型资金做出贡献。

Over two or three years,

在接下来的两三年，

the entire global plastics industry

整个全球塑料产业

can transition from getting its building blocks from fossil fuel

可以从使用化石燃料

to getting its building blocks from plastic.

转变到用回收塑料。

The technology is out there.

这项科技已经存在了，

It's proven."

已经被证实过有效。

I've taken two multibillion-dollar operations from nothing,

我已经从无到有进行了 两次数十亿美元的操作，

recognizing that the technology can be scaled.

认识到这项技术是可以规模化的。

I see at least a dozen technologies in plastic to handle all types of plastic.

我见过至少十几种可以 处理各种各样的塑料的科技。

So once those technologies have an economic margin,

一旦这项产业为这些科技

which this gives them,

带来了经济价值，

that's where the global public will get all their plastic from,

这将会使全世界的塑料需求

from existing plastic.

都转向回收塑料。

CA: So every sale of virgin plastic contributes money to a fund

克里斯：所以每卖出 一片新塑料，就会有更多资金

that is used to basically transition the industry

用于此产业的转型，

and start to pay for things like cleanup and other pieces.

以及环境的清理。

AF: Absolutely. Absolutely.

安德烈： 当然，当然。

CA: And it has the incredible side benefit,

克里斯： 而且它有不可思议的额外优点，

which is maybe even the main benefit,

甚至可以成为主要优点，

of creating a market.

那就是创造新市场。

It suddenly makes recyclable plastic

忽然之间，可回收塑料

a giant business that can unlock millions of people around the world

成为了巨大的产业， 可以帮助世上数百万的人

to find a new living collecting it.

找到新的生活方式。

AF: Yeah, exactly.

安德烈： 正是如此。

So all you do is, you've got fossil fuel plastics at this value

也就是说，比如原生塑料在这个价格，

and recycled plastic at this value.

回收塑料在这个价格，

You change it.

我们让它们交换一下，

So recycled plastic is cheaper.

让回收塑料更便宜。

What I love about this most, Chris, is that, you know,

我最喜欢的部分是，

we waste into the environment 300, 350 million tons of plastic.

我们向环境中倾倒了3.5亿吨塑料，

On the oil and gas companies own accounts,

根据石油和天然气公司的估计，

it's going to grow to 500 million tons.

这个数字将会达到5亿。

This is an accelerating problem.

这个问题在加速。

But every ton of that is polymer.

但是每一吨塑料都是聚合物，

Polymer is 1,000 dollars, 1,500 dollars a ton.

聚合物是1000或1500美元一吨。

That's half a trillion dollars which could go into business

大约5000万美元会流入回收行业，

and could create jobs and opportunities and wealth right across the world,

可以创造工作和各种机会， 创造国际化的财富，

particularly in the most impoverished.

特别是在贫困地区。

Yet we throw it away.

但是我们就这么白白扔掉了。

CA: So this would allow the big companies to invest in recycling plants

克里斯： 所以这样能让大公司们投资

literally all over the world --

世界各地的回收工厂——

AF: All over the world.

安德烈： 任何地方。

Because the technology is low-capital cost,

因为科技不需要 大量的资金成本，

you can put it in at rubbish dumps, at the bottom of big hotels,

你可以把它放在垃圾堆里， 酒店地下室，

garbage depots, everywhere,

垃圾场，任何地方，

turn that waste into resin.

将垃圾转换为树脂。

CA: Now, you're a philanthropist,

克里斯： 你是一个慈善家，

而且你也已经 投入了自己的资金。

and you're ready to commit some of your own wealth to this.

那么慈善在这个项目中的作用是什么？

What is the role of philanthropy in this project?

安德烈：我认为我们需要 投入4到5千万美元

AF: I think what we have to do is kick in the 40 to 50 million US dollars

to get it going,

才能让它运行，

and then we have to create absolute transparency

当然我们还需要绝对的透明度，

so everyone can see exactly what's going on.

让每个人都能了解实时状况。

From the resin producers to the brands to the consumers,

从树脂生产商到品牌消费者，

everyone gets to see who is playing the game,

每个人都可以看到 谁在掌管大权，

who is protecting the Earth, and who doesn't care.

谁在保护地球， 谁又满不在乎。

And that'll cost about a million dollars a week,

这个的花费大概是 每周100万美元，

and we're going to underwrite that for five years.

我们会提供大约5年的资金。

Total contribution is circa 300 million US dollars.

总共的支出大约是三亿。

CA: Wow.

克里斯： 哇。

Now --

现在——

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

You've talked to other companies, like to the Coca-Colas of this world,

你也讲了别的公司， 像是可口可乐，

who are willing to do this, they're willing to pay a higher price,

是愿意这么做的， 他们愿意为保护环境

they would like to pay a higher price,

而付高价，

so long as it's fair.

非常公平。

AF: Yeah, it's fair.

安德烈： 是的，非常公平。

So, Coca-Cola wouldn't like Pepsi to play ball

除非全世界都知道 百事可乐没有参与合作，

unless the whole world knew that Pepsi wasn't playing ball.

否则可口可乐不会 想要百事可乐参与进来，

Then they don't care.

那么他们也就不在乎。

So it's that transparency of the market

所以，这就是市场的透明性，

where, if people try and cheat the system,

如果有人试图作弊，

the market can see it, the consumers can see it.

那么整个市场都会看到， 所有消费者也会看到。

The consumers want a role to play in this.

消费者也想发挥作用。

Seven and a half billion of us.

我们有75亿人。

We don't want our world smashed by a hundred companies.

我们不想整个世界 毁在几百个公司中。

克里斯： 你提到了公司能做些什么，

CA: Well, so tell us, you've said what the companies can do

以及你愿意做的事情。

我们的观众可以做些什么呢？

and what you're willing to do.

What can people listening do?

AF: OK, so I would like all of us,

安德烈： 我想请各位，

all around the world,

还有世界上所有的人，

to go a website called noplasticwaste.org.

登陆一个叫做 noplasticwaste.org 的网站。

You contact your hundred resin producers

你可以找到你所在地区

which are in your region.

的一百个树脂生产商。

You will have at least one

你会至少联系上其中一家，

within an email or Twitter or a telephone contact from you,

给他们发邮件， 发推特，或是打电话，

and let them know that you would like them to make a contribution to a fund

告诉他们，你希望他们为 由某个行业或世界银行

which industry can manage or the World Bank can manage.

所管理的基金捐款。

It raises tens of billions of dollars per year

如果每年收集到几百亿的捐款，

so you can transition the industry to getting all its plastic from plastic,

你就可以让这个产业转型， 用塑料来再生塑料，

not from fossil fuel.

而不再使用化石燃料，

We don't need that. That's bad. This is good.

前者对环境更友好。

And it can clean up the environment.

剩余的资金还可以用来治理环境。

We've got enough capital there,

我们有足够的资金，

we've got tens of billions of dollars, Chris, per annum

每年有几百亿美元

to clean up the environment.

用来净化环境。

CA: You're in the recycling business.

克里斯： 你已经在回收行业了。

Isn't this a conflict of interest for you,

这难道不会损失你的利益吗，

or rather, a huge business opportunity for you?

或者，这对你来说反而 是一个巨大的商机？

AF: Yeah, look, I'm in the iron ore business,

安德烈： 是的，我在铁矿行业，

and I compete against the scrap metal business,

我与废铁公司竞争，

这就是为什么你不会在走路的时候 绊倒在一堆废铁上，

and that's why you don't have any scrap lying around to trip over,

and cut your toe on,

划破脚趾，

because it gets collected.

因为它们被回收了。

CA: This isn't your excuse to go into the plastic recycling business.

克里斯：这不是你 进入塑料回收行业的借口，

安德烈： 不是的，我还要大力提倡。

AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom.

This will be the internet of plastic waste.

这会成为塑料垃圾行业中的互联网。

This will be a boom industry which will spread all over the world,

这会是横跨世界的成熟产业，

and particularly where poverty is worst because that's where the rubbish is most,

特别是严重贫困的地区， 因为那是垃圾最多的地方，

and that's the resource.

同时也是资源所在地。

So I'm going to cheer for it and stand back.

所以我要大力提倡，并且全力支持。

CA: Twiggy, we're in an era

克里斯： Twiggy，在我们所处的年代，

where so many people around the world are craving a new, regenerative economy,

很多人在世界各地 发展新的，再生的经济，

these big supply chains, these big industries,

让这些巨大的供应链， 这些巨大的产业

to fundamentally transform.

发生根本性的转变。

It strikes me as a giant idea,

这个了不起的想法震撼到我了，

and you're going to need a lot of people cheering you on your way

在这个过程中， 我们也需要得到很多人的支持，

才能继续前进。

to make it happen.

感谢您与我们分享这些。

Thank you for sharing this with us.

安德烈： 非常感谢，克里斯。

AF: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.

（鼓掌）

(Applause)