A radical plan to end plastic waste | Andrew Forrest

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: 易帆 余

Chris Anderson: So, you've been obsessed with this problem

克里斯安德森：過去幾年間

for the last few years.

你都投入在這個問題上。

What is the problem, in your own words?

用你的話來說，問題是什麼？

Andrew Forrest: Plastic.

安德魯福雷斯特： 塑膠。就這麼簡單。

Simple as that.

我們對塑膠並沒有發揮

Our inability to use it for the tremendous energetic commodity that it is,

充分再利用的能力，

and just throw it away.

只會把它們丟了。

CA: And so we see waste everywhere.

克：所以到處可見浪費。

At its extreme, it looks a bit like this.

最極端的狀況看起來 有點像是這樣。

I mean, where was this picture taken?

這張照片是在哪裡拍的？

AF: That's in the Philippines,

安：是在菲律賓。

and you know, there's a lot of rivers, ladies and gentlemen,

各位先生女士，在那裡， 有很多像這樣的河流。

which look exactly like that.

那是菲律賓。所以， 在東南亞到處都是。

And that's the Philippines.

So it's all over Southeast Asia.

CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers,

克：所以塑膠被丟入河中，當然，

and from there, of course, it ends up in the ocean.

最後會流入海洋。

I mean, we obviously see it on the beaches,

很顯然，我們在海灘上 都會看到塑膠，

but that's not even your main concern.

但你最關心的議題並不是這個。

It's what's actually happening to it in the oceans. Talk about that.

是它們在海洋中會如何。 跟我們談談這點。

AF: OK, so look. Thank you, Chris.

安：好。謝謝你，克里斯。

About four years ago,

大約四年前，我……

I thought I'd do something really barking crazy,

想要做件非常瘋狂的事，

and I committed to do a PhD in marine ecology.

我決定去攻讀海洋生態博士學位。

And the scary part about that was,

比較可怕的部分在於，

sure, I learned a lot about marine life,

的確，我學到很多海洋的生命， 但卻學到更多海洋的死亡，

but it taught me more about marine death

and the extreme mass ecological fatality of fish,

以及很極端的大量生態死亡，

包括魚類、海洋生物、 海洋哺乳類，

of marine life, marine mammals,

very close biology to us,

和我們非常近親的生物，

which are dying in the millions if not trillions that we can't count

死亡的數目到達上兆， 要不是死了這麼多，

at the hands of plastic.

我們都還不知道兇手竟是塑膠。

CA: But people think of plastic as ugly but stable. Right?

克：但人們認為塑膠 雖然醜陋但很穩定，對吧？

You throw something in the ocean, "Hey, it'll just sit there forever.

你把塑膠丟到海洋中： 「嘿，它會永遠待在那裡。

Can't do any damage, right?"

不會造成傷害吧？」

AF: See, Chris, it's an incredible substance designed for the economy.

安：克里斯，

對經濟而言，設計出塑膠 這種物質是很了不起的。

It is the worst substance possible for the environment.

但對環境而言，它是最糟糕的物質。

The worst thing about plastics, as soon as it hits the environment,

塑膠最糟糕的一點是， 當它們進入到環境中，

is that it fragments.

它們會破碎掉。

It never stops being plastic.

它們永遠都會是塑膠。

It breaks down smaller and smaller and smaller,

它們會碎成越來越小塊，

and the breaking science on this, Chris,

克里斯，關於這點 有個驚人的科學，

which we've known in marine ecology for a few years now,

在海洋生態學領域 我們幾年前就知道了，

but it's going to hit humans.

但它將會衝擊人類。

We are aware now that nanoplastic,

我們現在知道奈米塑膠，

the very, very small particles of plastic, carrying their negative charge,

也就是非常小的塑膠粒子，

會帶負電，

can go straight through the pores of your skin.

直接穿過你皮膚上的毛孔。

That's not the bad news.

那還不是壞消息。壞消息是，

The bad news is that it goes straight through the blood-brain barrier,

它們會直接穿越血腦內的屏障，

that protective coating which is there to protect your brain.

也就是保護你大腦的障壁。

大腦是一塊沒有固定形狀的 濕物體，充滿了小小的電荷。

Your brain's a little amorphous, wet mass full of little electrical charges.

You put a negative particle into that,

你腦內跑進了負電粒子，

particularly a negative particle which can carry pathogens --

特別是帶有 病原體的負電粒子——

so you have a negative charge, it attracts positive-charge elements,

負電菏會吸引正電荷的元素，

like pathogens, toxins,

比如病原體、毒物、

mercury, lead.

銀、鉛。

That's the breaking science we're going to see in the next 12 months.

在接下來的十二個月， 我們就會看到這項科學新知。

CA: So already I think you told me that there's like 600 plastic bags or so

克：我想你有跟我說過，

對每一條那種大小的魚， 就有大約六百個塑膠袋。

for every fish that size in the ocean, something like that.

And they're breaking down,

它們在瓦解，

and there's going to be ever more of them,

且將來會有更多，

我們還沒有開始看到後果。

and we haven't even seen the start of the consequences of that.

安：沒有，還沒看到。

AF: No, we really haven't.

The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, they're a bunch of good scientists,

艾倫麥克阿瑟基金會， 他們是一群很棒的科學家，

we've been working with them for a while.

我們和他們合作了一陣子。

I've completely verified their work.

完全驗證了他們的研究。

They say there will be one ton of plastic, Chris,

克里斯，他們說，每三噸魚類

for every three tons of fish by, not 2050 --

就會有一噸塑膠， 不是 2050 年的預測——

and I really get impatient with people who talk about 2050 -- by 2025.

我對談 2050 年的人很沒耐心—— 是 2025 年的預測。

That's around the corner.

很快就要到了。

That's just the here and now.

近在咫尺了。

You don't need one ton of plastic to completely wipe out marine life.

不用一噸的塑膠就可以 讓海洋生命完全消失。

Less than that is going to do a fine job at it.

不用那麼多塑膠 就可以辦到且做得很好。

So we have to end it straightaway. We've got no time.

所以我們得馬上阻止它。 我們沒有時間了。

CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it, and you're coming at this

克：好，所以你有點子可以 阻止它，且你在處理這件事

not as a typical environmental campaigner, I would say,

扮演的角色不是 典型的環境活動家，

but as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, who has lived --

而是生意人、企業家，曾經——

you've spent your whole life thinking about global economic systems

你一生都在思考全球經濟系統，

and how they work.

以及它們如何運作。

And if I understand it right,

如果我的理解正確，

your idea depends on heroes who look something like this.

你的點子要仰賴

像這樣子的英雄。

What's her profession?

她的職業是什麼？

AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker,

安：克里斯，她是撿破爛的人，

and there were 15, 20 million ragpickers like her,

曾經有一千五百萬 或兩千萬個像她這樣的人，

until China stopped taking everyone's waste.

後來中國不再接收大家的廢物。

And the price of plastic, minuscule that it was, collapsed.

塑膠的價格本來就很低， 之後就暴跌了。

That led to people like her,

導致像她這樣的人，

which, now -- she is a child who is a schoolchild.

現在——她是個孩子，學童。

She should be at school.

她應該要上學的。

That's probably very akin to slavery.

那和奴隸制度差不多了。

My daughter Grace and I have met hundreds of people like her.

我女兒葛雷絲和我見過 數百名像她這樣的人。

CA: And there are many adults as well, literally millions around the world,

克：還有許多成人， 全世界有數百萬名，

在一些產業中， 他們其實造成了，比如，

and in some industries,

they actually account for the fact that, for example,

我們在世界上不會 看到很多金屬廢棄物。

we don't see a lot of metal waste in the world.

AF: That's exactly right.

安：沒錯。

That little girl is, in fact, the hero of the environment.

事實上，那個女孩是環境的英雄。

She's in competition with a great big petrochemical plant

她在和同一條路上的

大型石化工廠競爭，

which is just down the road,

the three-and-a-half-billion-dollar petrochemical plant.

一間三十五億美金的 石化工廠。那就是問題。

That's the problem.

We've got more oil and gas in plastic and landfill

我們在塑膠和垃圾 掩埋場中的石油和天然氣，

than we have in the entire oil and gas resources of the United States.

比美國所有的石油 和天然氣資源還要多。

So she is the hero.

所以她是英雄。

And that's what that landfill looks like, ladies and gentlemen,

各位先生女士， 這就是垃圾掩埋場的模樣，

and it's solid oil and gas.

那是很實在的石油和天然氣。

CA: So there's huge value potentially locked up in there

克：所以在那裡藏著很高的價值，

that the world's ragpickers would, if they could, make a living from.

如果能的話，世界上揀破爛的人 可以靠這裡維持生計。

But why can't they?

但為什麼不能？

AF: Because we have ingrained in us

安：因為我們對於 來自化石燃料的塑膠

a price of plastic from fossil fuels,

有個根深蒂固的價格，

which sits just under what it takes

它剛好就低於

能經濟地、有利潤地從塑膠 回收塑膠所要花的價值。

to economically and profitably recycle plastic from plastic.

See, all plastic is is building blocks from oil and gas.

所有的塑膠都是

石油和天然氣的基礎材料。

Plastic's 100 percent polymer, which is 100 percent oil and gas.

塑膠是 100% 的聚合物， 聚合物是 100% 的石油和天然氣。

And you know we've got enough plastic in the world

你知道在世界上有足夠的塑膠 能滿足我們所有的需求。

for all our needs.

And when we recycle plastic,

當我們回收塑膠時，

if we can't recycle it cheaper than fossil fuel plastic,

如果我們無法讓回收塑膠價格 比化石燃料塑膠還低，

then, of course, the world just sticks to fossil fuel plastic.

當然全世界還是會 繼續用化石燃料塑膠。

CA: So that's the fundamental problem,

克：所以，那是根本的問題，

the price of recycled plastic is usually more

回收塑膠的價格通常比較高，

than the price of just buying it made fresh from more oil.

高於購買直接從石油製造的塑膠。

That's the fundamental problem.

那就是根本的問題。

AF: A slight tweak of the rules here, Chris.

安：這裡要稍微 扭轉一下規則，克里斯。

I'm a commodity person.

我是做商品的人。

I understand that we used to have scrap metal and rubbish iron

我知道我們以前

在村落各處都可以見到

廢金屬、不要的鐵，還有一些銅，

and bits of copper lying all round the villages,

particularly in the developing world.

特別是在開發中世界。

And people worked out it's got a value.

大家發現它們是有價值的。

It's actually an article of value,

它們是有價值的物品，

not of waste.

不是廢棄物。

Now the villages and the cities and the streets are clean,

村落、城市、街道現在都很乾淨，

you don't trip over scrap copper or scrap iron now,

現在你不會被廢銅或廢鐵給絆倒，

because it's an article of value, it gets recycled.

因為它們是有價值的物品， 它們會被回收。

CA: So what's your idea, then, to try to change that in plastics?

克：所以，你有什麼點子

可以改變塑膠的狀況？

AF: OK, so Chris,

安：好，所以，克里斯，

for most part of that PhD, I've been doing research.

攻讀博士學位時， 我一直在做研究。

And the good thing about being a businessperson who's done OK at it

身為生意做的不錯的 生意人，有一個好處，

is that people want to see you.

就是其他生意人會願意見你。

Other businesspeople,

even if you're kind of a bit of a zoo animal species they'd like to check out,

即使你有點像是他們會 想要看看的動物園物種，

they'll say, yeah, OK, we'll all meet Twiggy Forrest.

他們會說，好，我們就來見見 崔姬（綽號）福雷斯特。

And so once you're in there,

you can interrogate them.

一旦你進去了，你就能質問他們。

And I've been to most of the oil and gas and fast-moving consumer good companies

我去過全世界大部分

石油和天然氣及快速流動 消費性商品公司，

in the world,

and there is a real will to change.

他們真的有想改變的意願。

I mean, there's a couple of dinosaurs

還是有一些恐龍，

who are going to hope for the best and do nothing,

希望有最好的結果但什麼都不做，

but there's a real will to change.

但真的還是有想改變的意願。

So what I've been discussing is,

所以，我一直在討論的是，

the seven and a half billion people in the world

全世界七十五億人

don't actually deserve to have their environment smashed by plastic,

不應該得到一個 被塑膠搗毀的環境，

their oceans rendered depauperate or barren of sea life because of plastic.

因為塑膠，我們的海洋產生出 衰弱或不孕的海洋生命。

So you come down that chain,

沿著產業鏈追下去，

and there's tens of thousands of brands which we all buy heaps of products from,

有數萬個我們會購買的品牌與塑膠有關，

but then there's only a hundred major resin producers,

但只有一百個主要的樹脂生產者，

big petrochemical plants,

大型石化廠，

that spew out all the plastic which is single use.

製造出所有只用過一次的塑膠。

CA: So one hundred companies

克：所以，一百間公司 位在這個食物鏈的根基處。

are right at the base of this food chain, as it were.

AF: Yeah.

安：是的。

CA: And so what do you need those one hundred companies to do?

克：所以你需要 這一百家公司做什麼？

AF: OK, so we need them to simply raise the value

安：好，我們只需要 他們提高基礎材料的價值，

of the building blocks of plastic from oil and gas,

來自石油和天然氣的 基礎材料的價值，

which I call "bad plastic,"

我稱這些塑膠為「不好的塑膠」，

raise the value of that,

提高它們的價值，

so that when it spreads through the brands and onto us, the customers,

所以當這些塑膠透過品牌 散播到我們客人這裡時，

we won't barely even notice an increase in our coffee cup

我們幾乎不會注意到 我們的咖啡杯有一點點漲價，

or Coke or Pepsi, or anything.

或者可樂，或者任何東西。

CA: Like, what, like a cent extra?

克：比如多一分錢美金？

AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent.

安：更少。四分之一或半分錢。

It'll be absolutely minimal.

會是最微小的。

But what it does,

但它的作用是，

it makes every bit of plastic all over the world an article of value.

它會讓全世界的每一塊塑膠 都變成有價值的物品。

Where you have the waste worst,

在廢棄物問題最嚴重的地方，

say Southeast Asia, India,

比如東南亞、印度，

that's where the wealth is most.

那些地方的油水也最多。

CA: OK, so it feels like there's two parts to this.

克：好，所以聽起來有兩部分。

One is, if they will charge more money

第一，如果他們願意把價格定高一點，

but carve out that excess

但將多出來的部分拿出來

and pay it -- into what? -- a fund operated by someone

付給——什麼？—— 某人運作的基金，

to tackle this problem of -- what?

用來處理這個問題——

What would that money be used for, that they charge the extra for?

額外收取的這些錢 會被拿來做什麼用途？

AF: So when I speak to really big businesses,

安：當我和非常大的企業談時，

I say, "Look, I need you to change, and I need you to change really fast,"

我會說：「聽著，我需要你改變， 我需要你快速改變，」

their eyes are going to peel over in boredom,

他們的眼中就會流露出厭倦，

unless I say, "And it's good business."

除非我說：「這是好生意。」

"OK, now you've got my attention, Andrew."

「好，你引起我的 注意了，安德魯。」

So I say, "Right, I need you to make a contribution

我會說：「我需要你對

to an environmental and industry transition fund.

環境及產業轉型基金做一點貢獻。

Over two or three years,

經過二或三年，

the entire global plastics industry

整個全球塑膠產業

can transition from getting its building blocks from fossil fuel

能成功轉型，本來是 從化石燃料取得基礎材料，

to getting its building blocks from plastic.

轉變成從塑膠取得基礎材料。

The technology is out there.

技術已經存在。已獲證實。」

It's proven."

I've taken two multibillion-dollar operations from nothing,

我曾經從無到有建立起 兩間數十億美金價值的公司，

recognizing that the technology can be scaled.

因為我知道技術可以擴大規模。

I see at least a dozen technologies in plastic to handle all types of plastic.

我知道有十多種塑膠技術 可以處理各種塑膠。

So once those technologies have an economic margin,

一旦那些技術規模化後 有了經濟方面的利潤，

which this gives them,

這些技術會為他們帶來好處，

that's where the global public will get all their plastic from,

接著全球大眾就會 從那裡取得塑膠，

from existing plastic.

從既有塑膠取得。

CA: So every sale of virgin plastic contributes money to a fund

克：所以，凡是銷售初次使用的 塑膠，要對基金貢獻一點錢，

that is used to basically transition the industry

基本上，基金會被用來轉型產業，

and start to pay for things like cleanup and other pieces.

並開始支付其它工作， 比如清理塑膠等等。

AF: Absolutely. Absolutely.

安：沒錯。沒錯。

CA: And it has the incredible side benefit,

克：這會帶來很好的邊際利益，

which is maybe even the main benefit,

還有可能是主要利益，

of creating a market.

創造出另一種市場的概念。

It suddenly makes recyclable plastic

突然間，回收塑膠會變成

a giant business that can unlock millions of people around the world

一個巨型產業，讓全世界數百萬人

透過塑膠回收 找到新的賺錢方式。

to find a new living collecting it.

AF: Yeah, exactly.

安：沒錯。

So all you do is, you've got fossil fuel plastics at this value

所以，要做的就是， 化石燃料塑膠是這個價值，

and recycled plastic at this value.

而回收塑膠則是這個價值。

You change it.

改變它。

So recycled plastic is cheaper.

所以回收塑膠比較便宜。

What I love about this most, Chris, is that, you know,

克里斯，關於這個方法 我最喜歡的一點是，

we waste into the environment 300, 350 million tons of plastic.

我們已經把 3003.5 億噸的塑膠 棄至環境中浪費掉了。

On the oil and gas companies own accounts,

石油和天然氣公司它們自己有算過，

it's going to grow to 500 million tons.

即將成長到五億噸。

This is an accelerating problem.

這是個不斷在加速的問題。

But every ton of that is polymer.

但每一噸都是聚合物。

Polymer is 1,000 dollars, 1,500 dollars a ton.

一噸聚合物算一千、 一千五百美金。

That's half a trillion dollars which could go into business

那就有五千億美金的生意可以做，

and could create jobs and opportunities and wealth right across the world,

可以在全世界創造 工作機會和財富，

particularly in the most impoverished.

特別是在最窮困的地方。 但我們卻將之丟棄。

Yet we throw it away.

CA: So this would allow the big companies to invest in recycling plants

克：所以這會讓大公司

在世界各地有塑膠的地方 投資回收廠——

literally all over the world --

AF: All over the world.

安：在世界各地。 因為這項技術是低資本的，

Because the technology is low-capital cost,

you can put it in at rubbish dumps, at the bottom of big hotels,

可以把它放在廢棄場、 大飯店底下、垃圾場，任何地方，

garbage depots, everywhere,

將廢棄物轉換成樹脂。

turn that waste into resin.

CA: Now, you're a philanthropist,

克：你是個慈善家，

and you're ready to commit some of your own wealth to this.

你已經準備好將自己的 部分財富投入在這裡。

What is the role of philanthropy in this project?

在這個計畫中， 慈善扮演的角色是？

AF: I think what we have to do is kick in the 40 to 50 million US dollars

安：我想我們能做的就是 先捐出四千到五千萬美金的初始基金，

to get it going,

讓這個計畫動起來，

and then we have to create absolute transparency

接著，我們得要創造出 絕對的透明度，

so everyone can see exactly what's going on.

大家都能知道所有的狀況。

From the resin producers to the brands to the consumers,

從樹脂生產者， 到品牌，到消費者，

everyone gets to see who is playing the game,

大家都能知道有誰在參與遊戲、

who is protecting the Earth, and who doesn't care.

誰在保護地球、誰不在乎。

And that'll cost about a million dollars a week,

那每週會需要花費一百萬美金，

and we're going to underwrite that for five years.

而我們將會承擔五年的費用。

Total contribution is circa 300 million US dollars.

大約要貢獻出三億美金。

CA: Wow.

克：哇。

Now --

那——

(Applause)

（掌聲）

You've talked to other companies, like to the Coca-Colas of this world,

你有跟其它公司談過，像是可口可樂，

who are willing to do this, they're willing to pay a higher price,

他們願意這麼做， 願意付更高的價格，

they would like to pay a higher price,

他們願意付更高的價格， 只要是公平的。

so long as it's fair.

AF: Yeah, it's fair.

安：是的，這是公平的。是這樣的，

So, Coca-Cola wouldn't like Pepsi to play ball

可口可樂不會希望 百事可樂搞花樣，

unless the whole world knew that Pepsi wasn't playing ball.

除非全世界都知道 百事可樂沒有搞花樣。

Then they don't care.

那他們就不在乎這多出來的成本。所以，

So it's that transparency of the market

是市場的透明度，

where, if people try and cheat the system,

如果有人嘗試欺騙系統，

the market can see it, the consumers can see it.

市場會發現，消費者就會發現。

The consumers want a role to play in this.

消費者想要有一個角色可以扮演。

Seven and a half billion of us.

我們七十五億人。

We don't want our world smashed by a hundred companies.

我們不希望我們的世界 被一百間公司破壞。

CA: Well, so tell us, you've said what the companies can do

克：你已經說過這些公司能做什麼 以及你願意做什麼。

and what you're willing to do.

What can people listening do?

那聽眾能做什麼呢？

AF: OK, so I would like all of us,

安：好，我希望我們 所有人，全世界的人，

all around the world,

to go a website called noplasticwaste.org.

到 noplasticwaste.org 這個網站。

You contact your hundred resin producers

去那裡聯絡你所屬地區的 一百間樹脂生產者。

which are in your region.

You will have at least one

至少會有一間

within an email or Twitter or a telephone contact from you,

是你可以用電子郵件、推特，

或電話聯絡到的，

and let them know that you would like them to make a contribution to a fund

讓他們知道，

你希望他們對基金做一點貢獻，

which industry can manage or the World Bank can manage.

由產業或世界銀行負責管理的基金。

It raises tens of billions of dollars per year

請他們把每年募集到的數百億美金

so you can transition the industry to getting all its plastic from plastic,

協助產業轉型，

從塑膠取得塑膠， 而非從化石燃料。

not from fossil fuel.

We don't need that. That's bad. This is good.

我們不需要那種塑膠。 這種比較好。

And it can clean up the environment.

環境會變得比較乾淨。

We've got enough capital there,

我們有足夠的資本，

we've got tens of billions of dollars, Chris, per annum

我們每年有數百億美金，克里斯，

可以用來清理環境。

to clean up the environment.

CA: You're in the recycling business.

克：你在做的是回收事業。 這不會和你的利益衝突嗎？

Isn't this a conflict of interest for you,

or rather, a huge business opportunity for you?

或對你來說是很大的商機？

AF: Yeah, look, I'm in the iron ore business,

安：是的，我在做鐵礦生意，

and I compete against the scrap metal business,

我和廢金屬生意競爭，

and that's why you don't have any scrap lying around to trip over,

那也為什麼路上沒有 會絆倒你的廢金屬

and cut your toe on,

或割傷你的腳趾， 因為它們都被撿走了。

because it gets collected.

CA: This isn't your excuse to go into the plastic recycling business.

克：這不是你進入 塑膠回收事業的理由。

AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom.

安：不是，我會為這種繁榮加油。

This will be the internet of plastic waste.

這會是塑膠廢物聯網。

This will be a boom industry which will spread all over the world,

這會是個遍及全世界的繁榮產業，

and particularly where poverty is worst because that's where the rubbish is most,

特別是在最貧窮的地方， 因為那裡的垃圾最多，

and that's the resource.

那都是資源。

So I'm going to cheer for it and stand back.

所以我會先為它加油， 之後再退居幕後。

CA: Twiggy, we're in an era

克：崔姬，在這個時代

where so many people around the world are craving a new, regenerative economy,

全世界許多人都渴望 有革新的經濟，

these big supply chains, these big industries,

希望這些大型供應鏈、這些大產業

to fundamentally transform.

能從根本上轉型。

It strikes me as a giant idea,

我覺得這是個宏大的想法，

and you're going to need a lot of people cheering you on your way

一路上你會需要很多人 幫你加油才能實現它。

to make it happen.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

非常謝謝你和我們分享。

AF: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.

安：非常謝謝。謝謝你，克里斯。

(Applause)

（掌聲）