What happened when we paired up thousands of strangers to talk politics | Jochen Wegner

翻译人员: Lipeng Chen 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

Now, this is Joanna.

这是乔安娜，

Joanna works at a university in Poland.

她在波兰的一所大学工作。

And one Saturday morning at 3am,

一个周六的凌晨三点，

she got up, packed her rucksack

她起床，整理好她的背包，

and traveled more than a thousand kilometers,

奔波了一千多公里的路程，

only to have a political argument

只为了和一个陌生人进行一场

with a stranger.

政治辩论。

His name is Christof, and he's a customer manager from Germany.

他叫克里斯多夫， 是一位德国的客户经理。

And the two had never met before.

这两人素未谋面。

They only knew that they were totally at odds over European politics,

他们只知道他们 对于欧洲政治、移民、

over migration, or the relationship to Russia or whatever.

和俄罗斯的关系等话题， 观点完全相左。

And they were arguing for almost one day.

他们争论了差不多一整天。

And after that, Joanna sent me a somewhat irritating email.

之后，乔安娜发给我了一封 有一些恼人的邮件。

"That was really cool, and I enjoyed every single minute of it!"

“这真的很酷，我享受 这过程的每一分钟！”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So these are Tom from the UK and Nils from Germany.

这是来自英国的汤姆 和来自德国的尼尔斯。

They also were strangers,

他们也是陌生人，

and they are both supporters of their local football team,

他们都是当地足球俱乐部的球迷，

as you may imagine, Borussia Dortmund and Tottenham Hotspurs.

各位可以想见，也就是多特蒙德 和托特纳姆热刺俱乐部。

And so they met on the very spot where football roots were invented,

他们在足球的发源地见面，

on some field in Cambridge.

位于剑桥的某块平原上。

And they didn't argue about football,

他们并没有在争论足球，

but about Brexit.

而是在讨论英国脱欧（Brexit）。

And after talking for many hours about this contentious topic,

在讨论了这个充满争议的话题 几个小时之后，

they also sent a rather unexpected email.

他们也发给我了一封 完全出乎意料的邮件。

"It was delightful, and we both enjoyed it very much."

“太美好了，我们两人 都很享受整个过程。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So in spring 2019,

2019 年的春天，

more than 17,000 Europeans from 33 countries

来自 33 个国家的超过 17000 欧洲人

signed up to have a political argument.

报名来进行政治辩论。

Thousands crossed their borders to meet a stranger with a different opinion,

数千人跨越国界， 去见一个有着相反观点的陌生人，

and they were all part of a project called "Europe Talks."

他们都是“欧洲说”这个项目的一份子。

Now, talking about politics amongst people with different opinions

如今，与意见不同的人讨论政治

has become really difficult,

已经变得十分困难，

not only in Europe.

不仅是在欧洲。

Families are splitting, friends no longer talk to each other.

家人会因此撕破脸， 朋友之间陷入沉默。

We stay in our bubbles.

我们待在属于自己的气泡中。

And these so-called filter bubbles are amplified by social media,

而这些所谓的“过滤气泡” 被社交网络进一步放大，

but they are not, in the core, a digital product.

但是它们本质上来说 并不是数字产物。

The filter bubble has always been there.

“过滤气泡”一直存在。

It's in our minds.

它在我们的脑中。

As many studies repeatedly have shown,

许多研究不断显示，

we, for example, ignore effects that contradict our convictions.

我们会忽视与我们 所持观点相左的影响。

So correcting fake news is definitely necessary,

所以纠正假新闻 当然是有必要的，

but it's not sufficient to get a divided society

但是光这样还不足以

让分裂的社会进行自省。

to rethink itself.

Fortunately, according to at least some research,

幸运的是，至少根据一些研究，

there may be a simple way to get a new perspective:

也许有一种简单的方法 来获得新的视角：

a personal one-on-one discussion

和不同意你的观点的人

with someone who doesn't have your opinion.

来进行一对一的交谈。

It enables you to see the world in a new way,

这让你能以全新的视角 看待这个世界，

through someone else's eyes.

透过别人的视角。

Now, I'm the editor of "ZEIT ONLINE,"

我是《时代在线》的编辑，

one of the major digital news organizations in Germany.

这是德国最主要的电子新闻机构之一。

And we started what became "Europe Talks" as a really modest editorial exercise.

“欧洲说”的这个项目的前身， 最初只是个小小的编辑测试。

As many journalists,

和诸多记者一样，

we were impressed by Trump and by Brexit,

我们无法不去关注 川普和英国脱欧，

and Germany was getting divided, too, especially over the issue of migration.

而德国也正在分裂之中， 尤其是关于移民的议题。

So the arrival of more than a million refugees in 2015 and 2016

2015 和 2016 年， 超过百万的难民的涌入

dominated somewhat the debate.

以某种方式主导了这场辩论。

And when we were thinking about our own upcoming election in 2017,

当时我们在思考我们自己 即将进行的 2017 年选举时，

we definitely knew that we had to reinvent the way we were dealing with politics.

我们明确的知道，需要 重塑我们处理政治的方式。

So digital nerds that we are,

所以我们这些数字怪才

we came up with obviously many very strange digital product ideas,

想出了许多奇怪的数字产品的点子，

one of them being a Tinder for politics --

其中之一就是 Tinder （约会APP) 的政治版——

(Laughter)

（笑声）

a dating platform for political opposites,

一个面向政治相左者的约会平台，

a tool that could help get people together with different opinions.

一个联结持有不同观点的人的工具。

And we decided to test it

我们决定测试一下，

and launched what techies would call a "minimum viable product."

推出了技术人员称作的 “最简可行产品”。

So it was really simple.

这非常简单。

We called it "Deutschland spricht" -- "Germany Talks" --

我们叫它 “Deutschland spricht”—— “德国说”——

and we started with that in May 2017.

并于 2017 年 5 月开始推出。

And it was really simple.

它真的很简单。

We used mainly Google Forms,

我们主要使用了谷歌表格，

a tool that each and every one of us here can use to make surveys online.

在座的各位都会使用的 进行在线调查的工具。

And everywhere in our content, we embedded simple questions like this:

我们的问卷中包含着 像这样的简单问题：

"Did Germany take in too many refugees?"

“德国接受了过多的难民吗？”

You click yes or no.

你可以选择是或者否。

We asked you more questions, like, "Does the West treat Russia fairly?"

我们会问更多的问题，比如 “西方是否公平的对待了俄罗斯？”

or, "Should gay couples be allowed to marry?"

或是“同性恋可以结婚吗？”

And if you answered all these questions, we asked one more question:

如果你回答了所有这些问题， 我们会再问一个问题：

"Hey, would you like to meet a neighbor who totally disagrees with you?"

“嘿，你想和一位与你意见 完全相左的邻居见个面吗？”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So this was a really simple experiment with no budget whatsoever.

这真的是个非常 简单的实验，没什么预算。

We expected some hundred-ish people to register,

我们预估会有百来个人报名，

and we planned to match them by hand, the pairs.

然后我们计划人工将他们配对。

And after one day, 1,000 people had registered.

一天之后，一千个人报名了。

And after some weeks, 12,000 Germans had signed up

几个礼拜之后， 一万两千个德国人报名

to meet someone else with a different opinion.

想要见见持有不同意见的陌生人。

So we had a problem.

我们遇到了麻烦。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

We hacked a quick and dirty algorithm

我们采用了一种快速且粗糙的算法，

that would find the perfect Tinder matches,

能找到最完美的 Tinder 配对，

like people living as close as possible having answered the questions

像是居住的尽可能接近， 但是对同样问题的答案

as differently as possible.

尽可能相反的人。

We introduced them via email.

我们通过邮件介绍他们。

And, as you may imagine, we had many concerns.

你们可能也想到了， 我们有许多顾虑。

Maybe no one would show up in real life.

也许没人会在现实生活中出现。

Maybe all the discussions in real life would be awful.

也许现实中的讨论会变得很糟。

Or maybe we had an axe murderer in our database.

也许我们的数据库中 有个斧子杀人犯。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But then, on a Sunday in June 2017,

但是在 2017 年 6 月的一个星期天，

something beautiful happened.

美好的事情发生了。

Thousands of Germans met in pairs and talked about politics peacefully.

成千的德国人成对相见， 和平地讨论了政治问题。

Like Anno.

像是阿诺。

He's a former policeman who's against -- or was against -- gay marriage,

他曾经是一名警察，反对—— 或是以前反对——同性婚姻，

and Anne, she's an engineer who lives in a domestic partnership

以及安娜，她是一位 与女性处于同居关系的

with another woman.

工程师。

And they were talking for hours about all the topics

他们对所持观点不同的议题

where they had different opinions.

进行了数个小时的讨论。

At one point, Anno told us later,

在某一刻，阿诺后来告诉我们，

he realized that Anne was hurt by his statements about gay marriage,

他意识到安娜因他对于 同性婚姻的观点而受到了伤害，

and he started to question his own assumptions.

他转而开始质疑自己的假设。

And after talking for three hours,

在讨论了三个小时之后，

Anne invited Anno to her summer party,

安娜要求阿诺来她的夏日聚会，

and today, years later,

在几年之后的今天，

they still meet from time to time and are friends.

他们依旧会偶尔见面， 还是朋友关系。

So our algorithm matched, for example, this court bailiff.

我们的算法还配对了 比如说这个法警。

He's also a spokesperson of the right-wing populist party AfD in Germany,

他还是德国右翼民粹政党 AfD （选择党）的发言人，

and this counselor for pregnant women.

配对对象是位孕妇顾问。

She used to be an active member of the Green Party.

她曾经是绿党的积极分子。

We even matched this professor and his student.

我们甚至配对了 这位教授和他的学生。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

It's an algorithm.

这就是算法。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

We also matched a father-in-law and his very own daughter-in-law,

我们还配对了岳父 和他自己的儿媳，

because, obviously, they live close by but have really different opinions.

因为，显然他们住得很近， 而又持有不一样的观点。

So as a general rule,

我们的一般原则是，

we did not observe, record, document the discussions,

我们不会观察记录这些讨论，

because we didn't want people to perform in any way.

因为我们不想让人们进行表演。

But I made an exception.

但是我破了个例。

I took part myself.

我自己也参加了。

And so I met in my trendy Berlin neighborhood called Prenzlauer Berg,

我在柏林的潮流街区 普伦茨劳贝格区

I met Mirko.

见到了莫尔科。

This is me talking to Mirko. Mirko didn't want to be in the picture.

这是我和莫尔科讨论的场景。 莫尔科不想出现在画面里。

He's a young plant operator,

他是个年轻的设备操作员，

and he looked like all the hipsters in our area,

他就像我们区域的其他嬉皮士一样，

like with a beard and a beanie.

留着胡子，带着便帽。

We were talking for hours, and I found him to be a wonderful person.

我们交谈了几个小时， 我觉得他是个很棒的人。

And despite the fact that we had really different opinions

尽管我们对大部分的话题

都有着不同的观点——

about most of the topics --

maybe with the exception of women's rights,

也许除了女性权利，

where I couldn't comprehend his thoughts --

我完全不能理解他的看法——

it was really nice.

这是场很不错的对话。

After our discussion, I Googled Mirko.

在交流后，我上网查询了莫尔科。

And I found out that in his teenage years, he used to be a neo-Nazi.

我发现在青年时期， 他曾是一名新纳粹。

So I called him and asked,

所以我打电话给他，问他，

"Hey, why didn't you tell me?"

“嘿，你为什么不和我说呢？”

And he said, "You know, I didn't tell you because I want to get over it.

他说，“我没告诉你是因为 我想让这件事情过去。

I just don't want to talk about it anymore."

我只是不想再讨论这件事情了。”

I thought that people with a history like that could never change,

我曾经认为有着这样历史的人 不可能会改变，

and I had to rethink my assumptions,

而现在我要重新审视自己的假设了，

as did many of the participants who sent us thousands of emails

就像众多给我们发送邮件和照片的

and also selfies.

参与者一样。

No violence was recorded whatsoever.

目前我们还没有碰到任何暴力事件。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And we just don't know if some of the pairs got married.

我们也不知道 有没有人因此喜结良缘。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But, at least, we were really excited and wanted to do it again,

但是，至少我们十分兴奋， 并想再做一次，

especially in version 2.0,

尤其是在 2.0 的版本中，

wanted to expand the diversity of the participants,

我们想扩大参与者的多样性，

because obviously in the first round, they were mainly our readers.

因为在第一轮中， 参与者主要是我们的读者。

And so we embraced our competition

所以我们接受了竞争，

and asked other media outlets to join.

让其他媒体参与了进来。

We coordinated via Slack.

我们通过 Slack （团队沟通 APP）软件协作。

And this live collaboration among 11 major German media houses

这场涉及 11 个主要 德国新闻媒体的在线合作，

was definitely a first in Germany.

绝对是德国史上的第一次。

The numbers more than doubled: 28,000 people applied this time.

参与者数字翻倍了： 这次有两万八千个人申请。

And the German president --

德国总统——

you see him here in the center of the picture --

他在这张照片的中间——

became our patron.

是我们的赞助人。

And so, thousands of Germans met again in the summer of 2018

所以，2018 年的夏天， 数千个德国人又一次见面，

to talk to someone else with a different opinion.

与持不同观点的陌生人对话。

Some of the pairs we invited to Berlin to a special event.

有些配对被我们邀请到柏林 参加一场特殊的活动。

And there, this picture was taken,

在那里，我们拍下了这张照片，

until today my favorite symbol for "Germany Talks."

至今仍是我最喜欢的 “德国说”的象征。

You see Henrik, a bus driver and boxing trainer,

照片中的人是 汽车司机兼拳击教练亨利克，

and Engelbert, the director of a children's help center.

以及儿童帮扶中心主任安格伯特。

They answered all of the seven questions we asked differently.

他们对我们问的所有七个问题 给出了完全不同的答案。

They had never met before this day,

在这天之前他们从未见过面，

and they had a really intensive discussion

他们进行了一场十分紧张的交谈，

and seemed to get along anyway

但两人似乎又十分

with each other.

相处得来。

So this time we also wanted to know

所以这次我们还想知道

if the discussion would have any impact on the participants.

这种对话是否对参与者有任何影响。

So we asked researchers to survey the participants.

所以我们让研究人员询问了参与者。

And two-thirds of the participants said that they learned something

三分之二的受访者觉得 他们从对方的观点中

about their partner's attitudes.

学到了一些东西。

Sixty percent agreed that their viewpoints converged.

百分之六十的人同意， 他们的观点变得接近了。

The level of trust in society seemed also higher after the event,

根据研究人员， 在谈话过后，对于社会的信任

according to the researchers.

似乎也变高了。

Ninety percent said that they enjoyed their discussion.

90% 的人说， 他们很享受他们的对话。

Ten percent said they didn't enjoy their discussion,

10% 的人说， 他们不享受这场对话，

eight percent only because, simply, their partner didn't show up.

这仅仅是因为，其中8% 的人 的配对并没有出现。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

After "Germany Talks," we got approached by many international media outlets,

在“德国说”之后， 许多国际媒体和我们进行了接触，

and we decided this time to build a serious and secure platform.

这次我们决定构建一个 严肃且安全的平台。

We called it "My Country Talks."

我们称之为“国家说”。

And in this short period of time, "My Country Talks" has already been used

在这么短的时间里， “国家说”已经被超过

for more than a dozen local and national events

十几个地方和国家级活动使用了，

like "Het grote gelijk" in Belgium or "Suomi puhuu" in Finland

像是比利时的“比利时说（Het grote gelijk）”， 或是芬兰的“芬兰说（Suomi puhuu）”，

or "Britain Talks" in the UK.

或是英国的“英国说（Britain Talks）”。

And as I mentioned at the beginning, we also launched "Europe Talks,"

像我最开始提到的， 我们也与 15 个国际媒体伙伴一起

together with 15 international media partners,

推出了“欧洲说”，

from the "Financial Times" in the UK to "Helsingin Sanomat" in Finland.

从英国的《金融时报》到 芬兰的《赫尔辛基时报》。

Thousands of Europeans met with a total stranger

成千的欧洲人与 从未谋面的陌生人见面，

to argue about politics.

来讨论政治。

So far, we have been approached by more than 150 global media outlets,

截止到现在，我们已经 被超过 150 家国际媒体接触，

and maybe someday there will be something like "The World Talks,"

也许有一天会有 像是“世界说”这样的东西，

with hundreds of thousands of participants.

拥有成百上千的参与者。

But what matters here are not the numbers,

但是重要的不是数字，

obviously.

这显而易见。

What matters here is ...

重要的是……

Whenever two people meet to talk in person for hours

当两个人见面， 当面谈论数个小时，

without anyone else listening,

没有旁人听着，

they change.

他们会改变。

And so do our societies.

我们的社会也会改变。

They change little by little, discussion by discussion.

他们会一点一点的改变， 随着讨论改变。

What matters here is that we relearn

重要的是我们会重新学会

how to have these face-to-face discussions,

如何进行这样的面对面讨论，

without anyone else listening,

和一个陌生人的讨论，

with a stranger.

没有旁人在听。

Not only with a stranger we are introduced to

不仅是和我们通过政治 Tinder

by a Tinder for politics,

介绍的陌生人，

but also with a stranger in a pub or in a gym or at a conference.

还包括和酒吧、健身房 或是会议上的陌生人讨论。

So please meet someone

所以，请找个人见个面，

and have an argument

进行一场辩论，

and enjoy it very much.

好好享受吧。

Thank you.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）

Wow!

哇！

(Applause)

（掌声）