What happened when we paired up thousands of strangers to talk politics | Jochen Wegner

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Coco Shen

Now, this is Joanna.

這是喬安娜。

Joanna works at a university in Poland.

喬安娜在波蘭的大學工作。

And one Saturday morning at 3am,

星期六凌晨三點，

she got up, packed her rucksack

她起床，整理好帆布背包，

and traveled more than a thousand kilometers,

經過超過一千公里的路程，

only to have a political argument

目的只是和陌生人，

with a stranger.

討論政治議題。

His name is Christof, and he's a customer manager from Germany.

他叫克里斯多夫， 是德國的客戶服務經理。

這兩人素未謀面。他們只知道，

And the two had never met before.

They only knew that they were totally at odds over European politics,

他們對一些議題的意見 完全相左，包括歐洲政治、

over migration, or the relationship to Russia or whatever.

移民，和俄國的關係等等。

And they were arguing for almost one day.

他們爭論了將近一天。

And after that, Joanna sent me a somewhat irritating email.

之後，喬安娜寄給我一封

有點惱人的電子郵件。

"That was really cool, and I enjoyed every single minute of it!"

「這經驗真的很酷， 我享受其中的每一分鐘！」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So these are Tom from the UK and Nils from Germany.

這兩位是英國的湯姆 和德國的尼爾斯。

They also were strangers,

他們也是陌生人，

and they are both supporters of their local football team,

他們都支持他們當地的足球隊，

as you may imagine, Borussia Dortmund and Tottenham Hotspurs.

各位可以想見，

多特蒙德足球俱樂部 和托特納姆熱刺足球俱樂部。

And so they met on the very spot where football roots were invented,

所以，他們在足球 被發明出來的根源地見面，

on some field in Cambridge.

劍橋的一塊平原上。

And they didn't argue about football,

他們沒有討論足球，

but about Brexit.

而是討論英國脫歐。

And after talking for many hours about this contentious topic,

針對這個爭議性的議題 談論了數小時之後，

they also sent a rather unexpected email.

他們也發了一封 出乎意料的電子郵件。

"It was delightful, and we both enjoyed it very much."

「過程很愉快， 我們兩人都非常享受。」

(Laughter)

So in spring 2019,

（笑聲）

2019 年春天，

more than 17,000 Europeans from 33 countries

來自三十三個國家， 超過一萬七千名歐洲人

signed up to have a political argument.

報名參加政治爭論。

Thousands crossed their borders to meet a stranger with a different opinion,

數千人跨國去和一位 意見不同的陌生人見面，

and they were all part of a project called "Europe Talks."

他們都是「歐洲談話」 這個專案計畫的一部分。

Now, talking about politics amongst people with different opinions

今日與意見不同的人談論政治

has become really difficult,

變得非常困難，

not only in Europe.

不只在歐洲。

Families are splitting, friends no longer talk to each other.

家人會扯破臉， 朋友不再說話。

We stay in our bubbles.

我們待在同溫層中。

And these so-called filter bubbles are amplified by social media,

社群媒體放大了這些所謂 有過濾效果的同溫層，

but they are not, in the core, a digital product.

但從核心來看， 它們並非數位產品。

The filter bubble has always been there.

有過濾效果的同溫層一直都在。

It's in our minds.

在我們的腦中。

As many studies repeatedly have shown,

許多研究不斷指出，

we, for example, ignore effects that contradict our convictions.

比如，我們會忽略

和我們自身信念有所矛盾的影響。

So correcting fake news is definitely necessary,

所以，修正假新聞是很必要的，

but it's not sufficient to get a divided society

但光這樣也不能夠

讓分裂的社會重新自省。

to rethink itself.

Fortunately, according to at least some research,

幸運的是，至少有一些研究指出，

there may be a simple way to get a new perspective:

可能有一種很簡單的方式 可以取得新的觀點，

a personal one-on-one discussion

一對一個人化的討論。

with someone who doesn't have your opinion.

和與你意見不同的人。

It enables you to see the world in a new way,

這麼做能讓你透過別人的視角

through someone else's eyes.

來觀察這個世界。

Now, I'm the editor of "ZEIT ONLINE,"

我是《時代周報》的編輯，

one of the major digital news organizations in Germany.

《時代周報》是德國 最主要的數位新聞組織之一。

And we started what became "Europe Talks" as a really modest editorial exercise.

「歐洲談話」的前身，一開始 只是我們的一個小小編輯練習。

As many journalists,

和許多記者一樣，

we were impressed by Trump and by Brexit,

我們也無法不注意到 川普和英國脫歐，

and Germany was getting divided, too, especially over the issue of migration.

因為德國也在分裂， 特別是談到移民議題時。

So the arrival of more than a million refugees in 2015 and 2016

2015 年及 2016 年 過來的一百萬名難民

dominated somewhat the debate.

以某方式主導了辯論。

And when we were thinking about our own upcoming election in 2017,

當我們想到我們在 2017 年 馬上有選舉要進行，

we definitely knew that we had to reinvent the way we were dealing with politics.

我們很清楚知道，我們得要 重新想一個處理政治的方式。

So digital nerds that we are,

所以我們這些數位怪胎

we came up with obviously many very strange digital product ideas,

想出了許多非常奇怪的 數位產品點子，

one of them being a Tinder for politics --

其中之一是政治用的 Tinder（約會 APP）——

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

a dating platform for political opposites,

讓政治意見相反的人 連結的約會平台，

a tool that could help get people together with different opinions.

能協助意見不同的人 結合在一起的工具。

And we decided to test it

我們決定付諸實行，

and launched what techies would call a "minimum viable product."

推出技術人員所謂的 「極簡運用產品」。

So it was really simple.

所以，它非常簡單。

We called it "Deutschland spricht" -- "Germany Talks" --

我們稱它為—「德國談話」—

and we started with that in May 2017.

2017 年五月推出。

And it was really simple.

它真的很簡單。

We used mainly Google Forms,

我們主要採用 Google 表格，

a tool that each and every one of us here can use to make surveys online.

這裡的每個人都能用 Google 表格 當作工具來做線上調查。

And everywhere in our content, we embedded simple questions like this:

在內容各個地方， 我們會放些簡單的問題，比如：

"Did Germany take in too many refugees?"

「德國收容太多難民了嗎？」

You click yes or no.

你要按「是」或「否」。

We asked you more questions, like, "Does the West treat Russia fairly?"

我們會再問你更多問題， 比如「西方對待俄國公平嗎？」

or, "Should gay couples be allowed to marry?"

或者「應該允許同志婚姻嗎？」

And if you answered all these questions, we asked one more question:

如果你回答了所有的問題， 我們會再問一個問題：

"Hey, would you like to meet a neighbor who totally disagrees with you?"

「嘿，你想不想見一位 和你意見完全相反的鄰居？」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So this was a really simple experiment with no budget whatsoever.

這是個很簡單的實驗，沒有預算。

We expected some hundred-ish people to register,

我們預期會有一百人左右參加，

and we planned to match them by hand, the pairs.

我們打算將他們人工配對。

And after one day, 1,000 people had registered.

一天後，

一千人報名了。

And after some weeks, 12,000 Germans had signed up

幾週後，一萬兩千名 德國人參加了，

to meet someone else with a different opinion.

想要和意見完全不同的人見面。

So we had a problem.

所以我們有麻煩了。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

We hacked a quick and dirty algorithm

我們用了一個快速、骯髒的演算法

that would find the perfect Tinder matches,

來找出完美的 Tinder 配對，

like people living as close as possible having answered the questions

比如，盡可能住得很近，

但那些問題的答案要盡可能不同。

as differently as possible.

We introduced them via email.

我們透過電子郵件介紹他們認識。

And, as you may imagine, we had many concerns.

各位可以想見，我們有很多顧慮。

Maybe no one would show up in real life.

也許在現實中沒有人會真的赴約。

Maybe all the discussions in real life would be awful.

也許在現實中的討論會很糟糕。

Or maybe we had an axe murderer in our database.

或者也許我們的資料庫中 有個斧頭殺人魔。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But then, on a Sunday in June 2017,

但，接著，2017 年 六月的某個星期日，

something beautiful happened.

美妙的事發生了。

Thousands of Germans met in pairs and talked about politics peacefully.

數千名被配對的德國人見了面， 和平地談論政治。

Like Anno.

比如阿諾。

He's a former policeman who's against -- or was against -- gay marriage,

他以前是警察，他反對—— 或曾經反對——同志結婚，

and Anne, she's an engineer who lives in a domestic partnership

安，她是工程師，

她和另一位女子同居。

with another woman.

And they were talking for hours about all the topics

他們談了數個小時，

談論他們意見不同的所有議題。

where they had different opinions.

At one point, Anno told us later,

後來阿諾告訴我們，在某個時刻，

he realized that Anne was hurt by his statements about gay marriage,

他發現他對同志結婚的說法

讓安感到受傷，

and he started to question his own assumptions.

他開始質疑自己的想法。

And after talking for three hours,

在談論了三小時之後，

Anne invited Anno to her summer party,

安邀請阿諾參加她的夏日派對，

and today, years later,

現今，數年後，

they still meet from time to time and are friends.

他們仍然是偶爾會見面的朋友。

So our algorithm matched, for example, this court bailiff.

我們的演算法配對了， 比如，這位法警。

He's also a spokesperson of the right-wing populist party AfD in Germany,

他也是德國右翼民粹黨派 「選擇黨」的發言人，

and this counselor for pregnant women.

配對對象是懷孕女子的諮詢師。

She used to be an active member of the Green Party.

她過去曾經是綠黨的活躍成員。

We even matched this professor and his student.

我們甚至把這位教授 和他的學生配對。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

It's an algorithm.

怪演算法嘍。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

We also matched a father-in-law and his very own daughter-in-law,

我們還把岳父 和他自己的媳婦配對，

because, obviously, they live close by but have really different opinions.

因為，顯然，他們住得很近， 但意見相差很多。

So as a general rule,

我們的原則是，

we did not observe, record, document the discussions,

我們不會觀察、記錄、 記載他們的討論，

because we didn't want people to perform in any way.

因為我們不希望他們 以任何方式“演出”，

But I made an exception.

但我開了一個特例。

I took part myself.

我自己參加了。

And so I met in my trendy Berlin neighborhood called Prenzlauer Berg,

所以，我在柏林旁邊的 時髦鄰坊普倫茨勞貝格

I met Mirko.

會見了莫柯。

This is me talking to Mirko. Mirko didn't want to be in the picture.

這是我和莫柯的對談， 莫柯不想露臉。

He's a young plant operator,

他是位年輕的裝置操作員，

and he looked like all the hipsters in our area,

他和我們那區趕流行的人一樣，

like with a beard and a beanie.

留著鬍子，戴著室內無邊便帽。

We were talking for hours, and I found him to be a wonderful person.

我們談了數小時， 我發現他是個很棒的人。

And despite the fact that we had really different opinions

雖然我們有非常不同的見解，

about most of the topics --

幾乎對什麼都有不同意見—

maybe with the exception of women's rights,

也許只有女權除外，

where I couldn't comprehend his thoughts --

這方面我無法了解他的想法—

it was really nice.

真的很好。

After our discussion, I Googled Mirko.

在討論之後，我上網查詢莫柯。

And I found out that in his teenage years, he used to be a neo-Nazi.

我發現，他在青少年時期 曾經是新納粹。

So I called him and asked,

所以，我打電話給他，問：

"Hey, why didn't you tell me?"

「嘿，你怎麼不告訴我？」

And he said, "You know, I didn't tell you because I want to get over it.

他說：「我沒有告訴你， 是因為我想忘了它。

I just don't want to talk about it anymore."

我只是不想再談它了。」

I thought that people with a history like that could never change,

我以為有那種歷史的人

永遠不會改變，

and I had to rethink my assumptions,

我得要重新監視我的想法了，

as did many of the participants who sent us thousands of emails

許多寄電子郵件 和自拍照給我們的參與者

and also selfies.

也是如此。

No violence was recorded whatsoever.

沒有發生任何暴力。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And we just don't know if some of the pairs got married.

我們只是不知道有沒有 被配對的人真的步入禮堂。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But, at least, we were really excited and wanted to do it again,

但，至少，我們很興奮， 且想要再做一次，

especially in version 2.0,

特別是要用 2.0 版，

wanted to expand the diversity of the participants,

把參與者的多樣性再進一步擴展，

because obviously in the first round, they were mainly our readers.

因為，在第一次實驗中， 參與者很顯然都是我們的讀者。

And so we embraced our competition

所以，我們張開雙手擁抱競爭，

and asked other media outlets to join.

邀請其他的媒體通路參與。

We coordinated via Slack.

我們透過 Slack （團隊溝通 APP）來協調。

And this live collaboration among 11 major German media houses

德國十一家主要媒體公司 在線上做即時的合作，

was definitely a first in Germany.

這是德國史上頭一遭。

The numbers more than doubled: 28,000 people applied this time.

參與人數超過兩倍： 這次有兩萬八千人報名。

And the German president --

德國總統—— 照片中間的就是他——

you see him here in the center of the picture --

became our patron.

成為我們的贊助者。

And so, thousands of Germans met again in the summer of 2018

2018 年夏天， 數千名德國人再次會面了，

to talk to someone else with a different opinion.

和意見相左的人對談。

Some of the pairs we invited to Berlin to a special event.

我們邀請其中幾對， 到柏林參加一個特殊活動。

And there, this picture was taken,

這張照片是在那裡拍的，

until today my favorite symbol for "Germany Talks."

至今，仍然是我最喜歡的 「德國談話」代表象徵。

You see Henrik, a bus driver and boxing trainer,

照片上的是亨利克， 他是司機和拳擊教練，

and Engelbert, the director of a children's help center.

還有安格柏， 孩童協助中心的主任。

They answered all of the seven questions we asked differently.

我們問的七個問題， 他們的答案全都不同。

They had never met before this day,

這天之前他們從來沒有見過面，

and they had a really intensive discussion

他們的討論十分緊繃，

and seemed to get along anyway

至少看起來和對方

with each other.

還算處得來。

So this time we also wanted to know

這次，我們也想要知道，

if the discussion would have any impact on the participants.

這樣的討論對於參與者 是否會有任何影響。

So we asked researchers to survey the participants.

所以我們請研究者來調查參與者。

And two-thirds of the participants said that they learned something

三分之二的參與者說

他們從對方的態度中學到了東西。

about their partner's attitudes.

Sixty percent agreed that their viewpoints converged.

60% 的人都同意 他們的觀點漸漸有交集。

The level of trust in society seemed also higher after the event,

根據研究者的發現，活動後，

對社會的信任似乎也提高了。

according to the researchers.

Ninety percent said that they enjoyed their discussion.

90% 的人說他們 很享受他們的討論。

Ten percent said they didn't enjoy their discussion,

10% 的人說他們並不享受討論，

eight percent only because, simply, their partner didn't show up.

8% 的人說不享受 只是因為對方放鴿子。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

After "Germany Talks," we got approached by many international media outlets,

在「德國談話」之後， 許多國際媒體通路找上門來，

and we decided this time to build a serious and secure platform.

這次，我們決定要打造 一個認真、安全的平台。

We called it "My Country Talks."

我們稱它為「我的國家談話」。

And in this short period of time, "My Country Talks" has already been used

在短短的時間內， 「我的國家談話」已經被用在

for more than a dozen local and national events

十多個地方性和全國性的活動中，

like "Het grote gelijk" in Belgium or "Suomi puhuu" in Finland

如比利時的「Het grote gelijk」、 芬蘭的「Suomi puhuu」，

or "Britain Talks" in the UK.

或英國的「不列顛談話」。

And as I mentioned at the beginning, we also launched "Europe Talks,"

我一開始提過，我們 也推出了「歐洲談話」，

together with 15 international media partners,

與十五個國際媒體夥伴合作，

from the "Financial Times" in the UK to "Helsingin Sanomat" in Finland.

從英國的《金融時報》

到芬蘭的《赫爾辛基日報》。

Thousands of Europeans met with a total stranger

數千名歐洲人和完全 陌生的對象見面，

to argue about politics.

爭論政治議題。

So far, we have been approached by more than 150 global media outlets,

目前，已經有超過一百五十個 全球性媒體通路找過我們，

and maybe someday there will be something like "The World Talks,"

也許有一天會出現數十萬人參與的

with hundreds of thousands of participants.

「世界談話」也不一定。

But what matters here are not the numbers,

但，重要的不是人數，

obviously.

很顯然。

What matters here is ...

重要的是……

Whenever two people meet to talk in person for hours

當兩個人相見， 面對面對談數個小時，

without anyone else listening,

沒有別人在旁邊聽，

they change.

他們就會改變。

And so do our societies.

我們的社會也會改變。

They change little by little, discussion by discussion.

他們會透過一次又一次的討論， 一點一點地改變。

What matters here is that we relearn

重要的是，我們要重新學習

how to have these face-to-face discussions,

如何進行這些面對面的討論，

without anyone else listening,

沒有旁人在聽，

with a stranger.

和陌生人討論。

Not only with a stranger we are introduced to

不僅是跟政治Tinder

by a Tinder for politics,

上認識的陌生人談，

but also with a stranger in a pub or in a gym or at a conference.

也能要和酒吧、健身房， 或大會活動中的陌生人談。

So please meet someone

所以，請去找個人，

and have an argument

進行爭論，

and enjoy it very much.

並好好享受。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Wow!

哇！

(Applause)

（掌聲）